Chabad Rabbi Bans Tap Water On Shabbat

One of the most respected Chabad authorities on kosher food, who is also the chief rabbi of a haredi city in Israel, has banned the use of tap water on Shabbat.

 

The correct spelling of the rabbi's name is Landau. I'm not clear about how the water system works in the buildings covered by Landau's ruling, so I can't comment directly on that ruling other than to point out that people have been using those taps on Shabbat for years, and I find it hard to believe Rabbi Landau is the first rabbi to address the issue. If so, that should mean that others hold the taps can be used on Shabbat. But I don't have the facts necessary to say that with certainty.

Rabbi: Don't open tap on Shabbat
Bnei Brak rabbi rules that turning on faucet in multi-story buildings leads to operation of electrical water pumping system, Shabbat desecration
Kobi Nahshoni • Ynet

Bnei Brak's Rabbi Moshe Yehuda Leib Landa has warned that turning on faucets in some multi-story apartment buildings leads to the desecration of Shabbat.

The rabbi issued a halachic ruling explaining that the using the tap directly turns on an electrical water pumping system – an offense which, according to the Torah, can be punished by stoning.

Rabbi Landa was asked to address the issue by his city's residents. After realizing that it concerned many Jews all over the world who live in multi-story buildings, he decided to delve into it.

For several weeks he consulted professionals in order to understand the mechanism leading the water from the pool to the apartments, and looked into different alternatives presented to him.

After concluding his inquiry, Landa ruled that "any person with technical knowledge can easily understand that a pump operated upon the opening or closing of the faucet means is basically being turned on on Shabbat."

According to the rabbi, the long-term solution is to install a high water reservoir enabling natural rather than electrical pumping. In the meantime, however, "there is no other choice but to ensure that the pump is turned throughout Shabbat and Jewish holidays."

This would require the installment of a special faucet which moves unused water back to the underground pool.

At the end of his letter, Rabbi Landa calls on the residents to accept the financial expenses involved in the solution and the noise expected to disrupt the day of rest until a permanent solution is found.
 
"On the contrary, hearing the sound of the pump will bring you some Shabbat entertainment and the joy of a mitzvah," he wrote.

Following the halachic complication, the rabbi's aides are calling on building contractors to consult rabbinical authorities before installing such pumps in the city's apartment buildings in order to prevent Shabbat desecration in advance.

They explained that the wider public was unaware of the issue and that contractors were therefore causing residents to commit acts banned by the Torah.

 

Comments

[David]

So, they won't be flushing toilets on Shabbat either...

[David]

This is not a new shaela and has to be addressed by a rabbi competent in this field.

Interesting that this website is now moving into a halachic discussion forum. Keep it up; I like the change.

[Gevezener Chusid]

I never knew that the Rabbi Landa (correct spelling - at least the one that is always used for this family) clan was Lubavitchers. This Rabbi's father was chief rabbi of Bnei Brak for decades. His hechsher for kashrus was considered impeccable (which I suspect would not be the case if they were Lubavitchers).

[Alter Kocker]

So Haredi apartments without running water or operational toilets on shabbat? Hygenic aren't they?

So lets sum up here, apartment located in Israel, a desert climate where the average temperature is rather high, no air-conditioning on shabbat as that is forbidden and now no way of flushing a toilet. Can anyone say yeccch?

[Chicago sam]

I wrote about this problem long ago, however itis a moot point because of the halachic principle of grama. In addition, there is also the problem of transacting business on Shabbat, for the meter runs every time you use the faucet. Lastly, you are also benefiting from Jews who are working on Shabbat at power plant...

You can make yourself neurotic over this linguistic halachic game.

[Shoshi]

The article seems to imply that it is not a grama, since every time you turn on the faucet, you immediately activate the pump:

>The rabbi issued a halachic ruling explaining that the using the tap directly turns on an electrical water pumping system

> a pump operated upon the opening or closing of the faucet means is basically being turned on on Shabbat

[Yaacov]

Jerusalem doesn't have these issues that the Tel Aviv area has so I'm not 100% sure how things are set up over there, but...

TO my knowledge the pump is located on the ground floor, or the basement, and pumps water up to a reservoir on the roof. The pump only turns on when enough water has drained from the reservoir on the roof. Isn't that an indirect action and thus permissible on Shabbat?

[seymour]

Posted by: Yaacov | January 19, 2012 at 12:20 PM

but what happens if you are the one who causes it to go below that level

in addition how cam one open a fridge door or enter a room that has central air conditioning?

[Yaacov]

That's why it is permitted. You may be the one to cause it to drop below the level, but you may not.

[KJ]

I could see some systems as being problematic. I always thought that larger buildings had water tanks on their roofs if pressure was an issue. Water would be pumped into those tanks and gravity provided the necessary pressure at the taps. This would not pose a problem since using water does immediately turn on a pump.

If the pressure is directly driven by a pump - that is a horse of a different color. In New York City 95% of the residents get their water by means of gravity so it is a problem that needs to be addressed.

Today, according to the DEP, New York City has the largest unfiltered surface water supply in the world. Every day, some 1.3 billion gallons of water is delivered to eight million New York City residents, one million more consumers in four upstate counties and hundreds of thousands of commuters and tourists. The system includes a watershed of 1,969 square miles across eight counties north and west of the city. The system’s 19 reservoirs and three controlled lakes contain a total storage capacity of 580 billion gallons.

Approximately 95 percent of this total water supply is delivered to the residential and commercial populace by gravity—the remainder is pumped upwards to maintain the desired pressure.

http://cooperator.com/articles/1364/1/Bringing-Water-to-the-Masses/Page1.html

[Yaakov]

It is very common for multistory buildings to pump water to the roof and feed it to the users by gravity. It appears, from the description this is not the case here. But, I am not sure what is being done here.

I have never seen any Israeli plumbing so I don't know how the pumps are set up, but it seems odd that the pump is directly activated by operating the tap. Odd, but not impossible.

New York uses upstate water and can feed it by gravity directly to smaller buildings. Tall buildings in the city have rooftop tanks. In those cases water is occasionally pumped to the tank. No user is certain to activate the pump. This is not a grama, though. A grama is "preventing a prevention". This is just a matter of davar she'eino mitkaven (an unintended act). You don't want it to turn on, so it is considered not relevant.

[deremes is sheker]

Stop using your brains on shabbos because the minuute u do that you are causing many electrical circuits to open and close. Everyone knows that your brain works on electric impulses

[Chicago Sam]

I see it as a series of causes, a causes b, b causes c, and so on. In any event, some authorities have no problem with grama, while others do.

From my POV, it is a linguistic game, the kind that Wittgenstein writes about in many of his books.

Halacha is made for sophistry and I have little interest in sophistry and mental gymnastics.

Socrates warns that nobody under thirty years of age should be exposed to dialectical argumentation, lest he become like one who is, “filled with lawlessness” (cf. Republic 537e). I mention this because I think young people in yeshiva should focus more on ethics then pilpul, which tends to produce moral idiots, when the young people graduate yeshiva.

I would agree with your conclusion reading D"S"A"M," which makes the whole question rather moot.

[Nigritude Ultramarine]

So they won't be flushing toilets on Shabbat either

Why chance it? Shabbos is too important. If the building is within an eruv, just defecate out the window.

[Waiting4Moshiach]

The real problem is this electricity. It was made up by the goyim and has caused us problems ever since they started making it. I think we would all be better off if there were a central switch in buildings where we live so that we could cut off all the power from one central place on shabbos and yom tov so no one would make any mistakes. We don't need it, and it might be keeping Moshiach from revealing himself. If you need water or cooking, better you should hire a shabbos goy to bring you jugs of water than risk this. And in todays economy you can hire a hard working goy for not much money. Pool the expense and it is nothing. And if you cannot afford to hire a regular person like a pole or an irishman, you can get the spanish for next to nothing.

[Yaakov]

Chicago Sam:

Wittgentstein only wrote two books, Tractatus Logico-Philosophicus and Philosopihical Investigations. A collection of his notes was later published by students.

In any case, I think you have it wrong. These halachot aren't "word games". They lack the ambiguity that Wittgenstein played with. The terms in the halacha are technical and carefully defined.

The halacha is, though, baroque and laden with accretions from the idle study by generations of "Rabbis". By the time there was a need for practical application to new problems, the halacha was ossified and couldn't answer properly.

[Rochel]

It has crossed my mind before how nit-picky, ultra-religious use the water (faucet or toilet) on Shabbat. Or open a fridge. Or those that use one of those electric urns that keep the water hot.

I see it now, bathtubs will be filled before Shabbat and that water can be used to wash and flush the toilet (must check the drainage system to make sure no electricity is used otherwise install a port-o-potty and wash into a bucket.) Items that need to be cooled can be kept in coolers with blocks of ice. Or everyone will just eat room-temperature food items on Shabbat since now using the fridge is not permissible and I think using the blech was deemed not permissible a few years ago.

Perhaps they should not leave their homes on Shabbat because they might activate a security camera or a satellite taking a surveillance image.

[Rochel]

And, oy, what about central heating??

[SkepticalYid]

I've heard of contractors building houses in some locations that deliberately have no toilet paper holders. that way, no one tears paper by accident on shabbos.

It probably won't be too long before they have separate meat and dairy garbage cans as well.

[tonda]

Lets see.....

1) Invest in bottled water company.

2) Make use of tap water bad.

3) Endorse (through side channels, of course) specific bottled water.

4) Profit.

Religion. It's all about one prophet or the other.

[Ron]

Reb Ahron Kotler always lived in an apt bldg in BP. Was he desecrating every Shabos? Where is Moshiach?

[jon]

So that episode in Season 2 of Srugim: the joke's ON YOU!

[effie]

Alter Kocker: You forgot to add the 10 kids into the equation.

[Yaacov]

"I have never seen any Israeli plumbing so I don't know how the pumps are set up, but it seems odd that the pump is directly activated by operating the tap. Odd, but not impossible."

It's called a pressure booster. I install them for individual apartments or homes, not for buildings. There is no holding tank. The pump is activated by opening a tap. This sort of pump is not used for a building though, it doesn't make sense.

[Yaakov]

Yaacov:

Yes, that's what I am saying. A pump with a head great enough to serve a building isn't likely to be able to handle the flow rate needed, especially if more than one tap is opened, toilet flushed, etc.

[jewishwhistleblower]

I'm not sure what has changed that it was necessary to issue this ruling. Has the nature of water pumps in multi-story buildings changed recently?

It does not appear to me that anything has changed. It is clear to me that these are known issues that have been discussed in the past.

[oh really]

I never knew that the Rabbi Landa (correct spelling - at least the one that is always used for this family) clan was Lubavitchers. This Rabbi's father was chief rabbi of Bnei Brak for decades. His hechsher for kashrus was considered impeccable (which I suspect would not be the case if they were Lubavitchers).

Posted by: Gevezener Chusid | January 19, 2012 at 12:02 PM Why is that are you saying that everyone is as closed minded as you ? please explain inelegantly.

[YbM]

as was brought in mishlei

evilim bazu!

[jewishwhistleblower]

It is not clear to me (having not read the actual ruling but only the news article) whether this ruling applies to buildings where there are a significant number of non-Jews living there that are using the water.

I also don't see how the article claims that turning on the water faucet on Shabbos is an "offense which, according to the Torah, can be punished by stoning." That is clearly false. It is not a Torah prohibition, perhaps a Rabbinic prohibition at best (I believe it is not).

[jewishwhistleblower]

The use of a fridge is not a new issue and my recollection is that Rav Aron Kotler kept his fridge open on Shabbos due to questions, something I have not seen any Rav of this era do.

[Ken]

Gravity-powered plumbing is also a problem. The imminent discovery of the Higgs Boson will unify gravity and electromagnetism, making gravity as asur on Shabbos as is electricity.

I think I stopped keeping Shabbos just in time.

[jancsipista]

Ken-hahahahah thats a good one you describe it perfectly the madness of this al is insane

[Chicago Sam]

>>Wittgentstein only wrote two books, Tractatus Logico-Philosophicus and Philosophical Investigations. A collection of his notes was later published by students

In any case, I think you have it wrong. >>

Yaakov, you continue to surprise me!

Actually,in his lifetime he published just one book review, one article, a children's dictionary, and the 75-page Tractatus Logico-Philosophicus (1921)(Wikepedia).

I do not claim to be an expert in Wittgenstein, but I was referring not so much to individual words, but to the enterprise of language as a whole.

Wittgenstein notes in his, PI,

"Consider for an example the proceedings that we call ‘games.’ I mean board games, card games, ball games, Olympic games, and so on. What is common to them all? Don’t say: ‘There must be something common, or they would not be called ‘game’” but look and see whether there is anything common to all. For if you look at them you will not see something that is common to all, but similarities, relationships, and a whole series of them at that . . ." (Philosophical Investigations, (tr.) G.E.M. Anscombe (Oxford, 1968), para. 66.)

It seems to me that the nature of halachic discourse lacks fixity; if anything, it is a fluid system (and is one of the qualities I greatly admire about it).

The rabbis seldom agree on the definitions, which produces endless controversies ad nauseam.

The history of halacha employs a methodology of pilpul that is constantly undermining, or, radically deconstructing the classical definitions (an approach that is strangely Derridian!).

In simple terms, I like to say that the only thing that is etched in stone are the Ten Commandments, the rest is negotiable--and this applies ad infinitum to the Halachic enterprise.

Respectfully,

CS

[KJ]

Reb Ahron Kotler always lived in an apt bldg in BP. Was he desecrating every Shabos? Where is Moshiach?

Posted by: Ron | January 19, 2012 at 01:36 PM

How many floors was the building where he lived. I believe that the need for added pressure is for a building with more than 6 stories. I don't think that Boro Park has such tall buildings since at that point you are dealing with shabbos elevator issues. So I wouldn't worry about it.

As to where is Moshiach, I assume he is on the way.

[Bassy the Haredi Slayer]

I always wondered who comes r' Shach who hated Chabbad with a vengeance permitted a Chabbadnic to be a chief rabbi in his town.

[Yaakov]

Chicago Sam

One book in his lifetime, one posthumously.

You quoted his "family resemblance" which is an argument against platonic forms. I really don't see that it is applicable to this.

He was talking about the idea that there is no "form" called "game" that is the perfect manifestation of "gameness". Instead, games share traits in various dimensions, the way family members do in terms of appearance.

I don't see the applicability.

It doesn't matter if the definitions change, it matters that they are very carefully defined at the time of application. That's what matters. Wittgenstein was concerned with times when conclusions were drawn concerning two disparate things because they happened to share a name.

In halachic discourse the definitions of the terms are being defined as part of the process. So, I have to continue to disagree with you here. The problem with the halacha is not the problem of platonic confusion but much more like the one that theoretical math suffers: building intricate, internally consistent, systems that don't necessarily have any counterpart in "the world".

[Chicago Sam]

Rabbinic discourses and disagreements proceed much like a game afoot. Rabbi X says, "blah blah blah," but Rabbi B says, "blah blah," and disagree how to interpret a scriptural verse (take the typical anti-linguistic attitude of R. Akiba vs the sensible linguistic approach of R. Yishamel in how they view a passage).

Everyone then jumps in, expands the playing field, and so, a discussion branches much like fractal geometry--in crazy directions. The Sages may agree on some rudimentary common ideas, but their interactions and definitions resemble a language game.

Being a master chess player, the Talmud system of arguments as well as the Nosay Kelim of the Rishonim and Acharonim and Poskim, resembles someone playing a Sicilian Defense, they follow the opening up to a point along familiar lines, and then expand the game beyond the opening into the Middle or End Game, where the players are in terra incognita.

[Chicago Sam]

Here is another passage:

" But how many kinds of sentence are there? Say assertion, question, and command?—There are countless kinds: countless different kinds of use of what we call ''symbols", "words", "sentences". And this multiplicity is not something fixed, given once for all; but new types of language, new language-games, as we may say, come into existence, and others become obsolete and get forgotten…Review the multiplicity of language-games in the following examples, and in others: Giving orders, and obeying them—Describing the appearance of an object, or giving its measurements—Constructing an object from a description (a drawing)—Reporting an event—Speculating about an event—Forming and testing a hypothesis—Presenting the results of an experiment in tables and diagrams—Making up a story; and reading it—Play-acting—Singing catches—Guessing riddles—Making a joke; telling it—Solving a problem in practical arithmetic—Translating from one language into another—Asking, thanking, cursing, greeting, praying. (PI, 1953, 11–12)"

I think even Wittgenstein (though he was an assimilated Jew), would probably agree by the criteria he sets out in the above mentioned definition, that Talmudic reasoning functions much like a language game.

Ergo, I must differ with you here . . .

[Waiting4Moshiach]

The most dangerous things for Yidden are what appear to be the most inocent. Or they might even feel good. The smile of a shiksa. Throwing a light switch on shabbos. Each leads to disaster for the Jewish soul. We cannot yet ban shiksas from our towns, but we can ban electricity from our homes on shabbos and yom tov.

[Anonymous]

>Bnei Brak's Rabbi Moshe Yehuda Leib Landa has warned that eating in some neighbourhoods leads to the desecration of Shabbat.

The rabbi issued a halachic ruling explaining that eating food caused nerves in the person's body to send electrical impulses to the brain - – an offense which, according to the Torah, can be punished by stoning.

Rabbi Landa was asked to address the issue by his city's residents. After realizing that it concerned many Jews all over the world who eat food every Shabbos, he decided to delve into it.

For several weeks he consulted gastroenterologists in order to understand the mechanism leading the neural stimuli from the stomach to the brain and looked into different alternatives presented to him.

After concluding his inquiry, Landa ruled that "any person with technical knowledge can easily understand that a stomach being fed on Shabbos is essentially like a lightbulb being turned on."

[Chicago Sam]

Dear Waiting4,

Did you realize that you create static electricity just walking on a carpet? Maybe you prohibit that too! I forgot, your brain is also electrical--maybe the wise Chabad/Haredi rabbis should prohibit using one's brain on Shabbat!

[Gevezener Chusid]

I never knew that the Rabbi Landa (correct spelling - at least the one that is always used for this family) clan was Lubavitchers. This Rabbi's father was chief rabbi of Bnei Brak for decades. His hechsher for kashrus was considered impeccable (which I suspect would not be the case if they were Lubavitchers).

Posted by: Gevezener Chusid | January 19, 2012 at 12:02 PM Why is that are you saying that everyone is as closed minded as you ? please explain inelegantly.

Posted by: oh really | January 19, 2012 at 01:49 PM

Oh I couldn't give a rat's ass but there are a LOT of people in Bnei Brak (and Boro Park and Lakewood for that matter) who would not rely on a Lubavitcher hechsher.

[Chicago Sam]

Chicago Sam

Did you realize that you create static electricity just by walking on a carpet? Maybe you may want to prohibit that too! I forgot, your brain is also electrical. Cells use electricity to communicate and to stimulate muscles, but the brain takes this to another level. If you could take the brain's electricity, tap into all the electricity the neurons are generating, you’d have enough power to turn on a flashlight.

Oy, what about Shabbas?!

Maybe the wise Chabad/Haredi rabbis should prohibit using one's brain on Shabbat!

[Chicago Sam]

I seem to remember him spelling his name, "Landau," and I studied under him for a couple of years at the yeshiva, but I could be mistaken.

Interesting man; sharp mind--he never got married (maybe he has by now).

[Yaakov]

Chicago Sam:

I understand Wittgenstein to be addressing an entirely different domain so it appears we can't come to an agreement on this.

Anonymous:

The maximum potential in a nerve is about -70mV. This voltage is so low that it would not be possible to heat a wire to the point of yad soledet bo which is the strictest opinion (Chazon Ish) based on the idea that the wire is "being cooked". The nerves themselves obviously never reach this state. In addition, there is a mitzvah of shalosh suedat, which require eating. So we can see from that eating cannot be assur.

[dh]

Yikes! The chabadniks here, including the rabbis, have lights on timers and sensors, set the heaters and air conditioners to work electronically and put pareve bacon bits in their salads.

[jancsipista]

Chicago Sam- it is a mind game for the rabbis the dupes that listen to them are automatons who dont have a mind of their own they do but maybee they feel that they are sombody if they put their 2 senses in it as the song goes life is but a game merrily merrily only someone who is lacking self worth takes theese things dead serious one of my hassidik neighbors would not even eat salt if he didnt see a hechsher on it but on the other hand he dupes the system by getting 100 thousand from sect.8 food stamp vouchers its all in the game as the song goes

[maven]

The whole prohibition of electricity on Shabbat is problematic. The Hazon Ish based it on "boneh" for completing a circuit, which many important poskim believe to be absurd. Soon contemporary life will be incompatible with this ruling, as it is, probably, like the situation with tumaa, everyone is already mechalel shabbat.

[Yaakov]

Waiting4Moshiach:

Take your tzaduki kefirah somewhere else! You are over lifnei iver! You will be responsible for the aveiros of Yidden who read what you wrote and act on it. You need to do teshuvah!

[Yaakov]

maven:

Boneh was an excuse. It's clearly not a valid basis but it relieved the Rabbis of dealing with the real issue. Rav Moshe Feinstein was much more honest when he said that if we allowed too much freedom with electric appliances on Shabbat it would lead to making it like an ordinary day.

You don't have to agree with Rav Moshe, but he told it like it is. In the end, there are very few really solid cases for prohibiting electric applications on Shabbat, aside from cooking and filament lamps (and even the latter is not clear). The truth is, "using electricity is not in the spirit of Shabbat" is the real reason. For what it is worth.

[Chicago Sam]

Ya'akov:

Yes, I agree--but thank you for rekindling my interest in Wittgenstein, I own about 20 books written about him, which I have not picked up in quite some time.

But given Wittgenstein's idea about the social quality of speech, started me thinking . . . When God "speaks," God is engaging Creation in a social manner, so to speak. Just an interesting thought ...

---

Waiting 4:

The heart is also electrical. May the Haredim should find a way to stop their heart over Shabbat--that would solve a lot of other problems, wouldn't it? (Only kidding).

[jancsipista]

Yaakov- i tought youre going to say aboutw4m that he is oiver buttel which he actually is :)

[Adam Neira]

If one performs one's ablutions on Shabbat one should be able to flush a toilet to get rid of them no matter what floor you live on in a building. Ditto having a glass of water or washing one's hands. Rigid adherence to certain mitzvot is ridiculous. There is no greyness with the prohibition against child sexual abuse whilst the law that says "But the seventh day is the sabbath of the Lord thy G-d: in it thou shalt not do any work" (Exodus 20:10)has been extrapolated upon to such a point that it is bordering on the insane. I really think Moses himself would be surprised by some applications of the observances of the mitzvot in the modern world.

[Yaakov]

Chicago Sam:

I considered learning German so I could read Wittgenstein without translation but it is very daunting. Nonetheless I would say he is one of my influences. One reason I am not a Platonist (neo- or otherwise). That insight alone was very important to my philosophical development. The other big one was Berkeley's arguments for idealism which made me consider the possibility of a non-materialist world, something I had never even considered.

The Rabbis absorbed the Platonic metaphysics and the Aristotelian materialism, which I believe made Rabbinic Judaism very different from its roots.

[Yaakov]

Adam Neira

You wash in the toilet?

[Bas Melech]

Gevezener Chusid | January 19, 2012 at 12:02

I lived in EY when the late Rav Landa(u) was alive. I heard that he was a Lubavitcher. He was very respected by all for his honesty and knowledge. He passed away before all this Messianic nonsense.

There are other Lubavitchers who were respected in those years. They were very mainstream. EY also had Lubavitchers who did not recognize the late rebbe.

[Yaakov]

jancsipista:

Our friend is a potential source of all sorts of aveiros. It's that sort of irony that comes from rigid ideology thinking.

I am using the term "thinking" loosely here.

[Yaakov]

Bas Melech:

I have a very good friend who is a Lubavitch shliach. He is old school, though. Not a hint of messianic narrishkeit. He is kind, honest, helpful, and generally a great guy.

If he was the Lubavitch norm they'd have an excellent reputation. He thoroughly embodies the best of Chabad, particularly the genuine happiness at any Jew doing any mitzvah. He doesn't see to "make frum people", it just does what he can to teach people.

It's too bad he isn't the face of Lubavitch.

[Yaakov]

Erratum:

He doesn't see to "make frum people", it just does what he can to teach people.

should read:

He doesn't seek to "make frum people", it just does what he can to teach people.

[Bas Melech]

The use of whether or not electricity can be used in EY is an old one. For at least 50 years there have been people who refrain from its use. One dayan, zatzal, from Bnai Braq, said that it has to do with Jews working to give us electricity on Shabbos.

People connect generators or batteries in the apartments for Shabbos and Yom Tov. Others use oil lamps and fill bathtubs with water and fill buckets to flush toilets.

[Litvish]

Since the brain runs by electricity, as previously pointed out, it is forbidden to use it on shabbos.

That is no problem for most shomrei shabbos since they never use their brains anyway.

[Steven]

Makes perfect sense.

There could be a short in the electrical system. Someone could turn on the tap which starts the pump which turns on a stereo because of the short and it could lead to mixed dancing and someone could break an ankle and then have to worry about how to get to the hospital and what if the x-ray person is a non-observant Jew and if only you had not turned on that tap, the x-ray tech might have had a few extra minutes at work and reflected on life and became a BT and without that realization, the Moshiach is delayed and/or the cholent begins to stick to the pot.

[Chicago Sam]

Yaakov,

Thanks for your insights. Do you teach at a university?

Also, I just obtained Jacob Howland's fabulous new book, "Plato and The Talmud" from Cambridge University.

He discusses a number of Platonic and Talmudic themes that are quite interesting.

You wrote, "The Rabbis absorbed the Platonic metaphysics and the Aristotelian materialism, which I believe made Rabbinic Judaism very different from its roots."

You make an important point, Crescas would probably agree with you. Sometimes I think the Greeks actually won the ideological war with the Jews. Chabad Hassidic writings utilize an abundance of Greek philosophical concepts.

Berkeley is very fascinating, and I see many parallels between him and Sheneir Zalman of Liadi (and probably R. Chaim of Volozhin) with respect to the soul, consciousness, and creation.

[Adam Neira]

To Yaakov,

Pedants are boring. Ablution as a word is interchangeable with elimination. You understand what I was trying to convey.

[dh]

Yaakov, sometimes less is more.

[Yaakov]

Adam Neira:

No, it isn't. It is a word that means "to wash". It doesn't mean anything else.

It was a joke but your umbrage says a lot. Don't use words to be superior if you don't know what they mean.

[Yaakov]

Chicago Sam:

No, I don't. I work at a university but I am not teaching there. Philosophy is very important to me, especially epistemological investigations.

I don't have a lot of time to read lately expect Shabbat. Let me know how Plato and the Talmud turns out. I might pick that up.

People who learn gemara without a background in classical philosophy can't actually understand it. The Rabbis discuss and debate it, but they don't name it. They refer to "Greek Beauty" cryptically. It's really a shame that yeshivot don't provide a basic background in Plato and Aristotle as an aid to gemara study.

[seymour]

wow

this discussion is taking me back to my beais medresh days.

[Chicago Sam]

This past year I have been teaching Perek Halek at my Shul.

I tried to compare the Talmudic discussions to ideas or comments found in: Josephus, Philo, Jesus, Roman history and Roman Law,a little bit of Plato and the Stoics, and especially Gnosticism.

We also looked at the sectarian split between Judaism and Pauline Christianity.

When studying, we looked up every Tana and Amora to try to better grasp the world they inhabited. A knowledge or familiarity of the area makes the sugiya come alive, aside from the traditional rishonim!

[Yaakov]

Chicago Sam

You sound like my kind of kofer.

[Chicago Sam]

Someone from the Habad community recently called me an Haredi anti-Semite. How's that for a neologism?

Kofer? Interesting term, its religious meaning is largely influenced (I think) from the Muslim tradition.

If you do a search on the Bar Ilan Univ. Responsa DVD on the term "kifira," you will be surprised to see the relative sparsity of this word. Oddly enough, the Igrot Moshe uses this unfortunate expression more than any other Gadol.

OTOH, medieval rabbis seemed to shy away from using this label for describing Jewish thinkers who may not have subscribed to Maimonides' 13 Principles--and there were many!

BTW, Haredi and Chabad don't understand this because their approach to Jewish history is totally ahistorical, not to mention hysterical as well!

[Yaakov]

Chicago Sam:

I chose it carefully for the connotations.

To me, much "kefira" is actually Torah. I assume you have seen Marc Shapiro's The Limits of Orthodox Theology? Great book, really well done.

[Chicago Sam]

Yes, I have read it almost 100 times, and have tried to put it to memory!

Every Habadnik & Haredi ought to read it from cover to cover.

[jancsipista]

Yaakov- Interestingly no one here talks about shabbas toilet paper many years ago some hassidik friends of mine went ballistic when they found out i dont use the shabbas paper i came from europe to usa at the age of12 and in the late 50 s and early 60 they still used to newspaper as toilet paper i did as a child till we left had to rip it up so i was not used to use shabbas paper they really ranked me out i started to used it but it is impossible ,what lenghts theese mindless robots go to to satisfy their rebbis ego unbeleivable

[Korbendallas72]

If I follow this Shabbos law and make a big show of how pious I am regarding it's observance, does that mean I get to piss on everyone that doesn't? I do?! Well, sign me up!

[Bob Guthrie]

Pacemaker for Haredi Rabbeh, implanted insulin pumps for their children, natal incubators for their babies, hospital life support systems for their old, mechanical leg pumps for their diabetic sick,... This is no longer hav’arah.

But they can have their derabbanan on electrical feed. Just beware of apartments with large families. hygienic diseases like cholera and dysentery could spread like wildfire throughout housing blocks.

[Rebitzman]

Hmmmmmmmm

TECNICALLY, pull a loose thread free from your shirt is a Shabbes violation. Maybe they should sit naked in their apts? Just in case.

[Yoel Mechanic]

I cannot comment on the halachic correctness of Rabbi Landa's endeavors; but the concept is outstanding. That a Rabbi would spend time from his busy schedule, to interact with the real word, spending much time with tradesman, learning about contemporary technology, and serious thoughts to ensure that Yidden will not be mechalal Shabbat is something to be lauded. I simply cannot accept the idea that anyone who actually cares about Shabbat would make fun of this.

In fact, I would like to see more Rabbis, and Yeshivah students involved with technology, the installation of these pumps, their manufacture and design, even in cases where it was there wasn't a direct halachic problem. This is making a dirah betachton, both metaphorically and *literally*.

And, being out in real world myself, I find it totally possible that, in theory and practice, a Rabbi could find halachic issues of Shabbat observance that have been overlooked for decades.

[Gefilte Fish]

Better you should have a glass schnapps on Shabbos.

[R. Wisler]

W4M:
Definitely one of your best parodies. Thanks again. You put me on the floor.

[Yoel Mechanic]

Posted by: Waiting4Moshiach | January 19, 2012 at 01:14 PM

Yes, I agree: this was a good parody, or, i guess more accurately, a hoax. It wasn't related to real life, but was still funny.

[chutzpah]

I suspect an inner circle invested in a bottled water company before this ruling was issued.

[Mendel Mendel]

I wish you peeple woold stop shouing off by using big wurds. To Nig.. Ultr..: Wat do you meen by "defecate out the window". I lucked up the d-word in the Oxford English Dictionary and it seyz,
1. trans. To clear from dregs or impurities; to purify, clarify, refine.
So wat's yur poynt?

[Rabbi Simon]

1. Electricity is NOT combustion.

2. It was banned on Shabbat/YomTov by some Rabbi's who say "No" to what they don't understand as a fence.

3. Electricity may be activated with a Shinuy (change) because it is not derisah (from the Torah)

4. All high rises or large complexes have a water pumps to create enough pressure to move mater up many stories. Domestic water in homes or small structures get their pressure from the Utility Company who creates the pressure with pumps at the sourse of their distribution systems.

At some point there is a pump that may activate up line when enough people open the tap or flush the toilet, etc... But who was the cause of that activation. It's not known.

5. The same logic says not to open your refridgerator because you will let in warm air and the compressor will activate. Who follows that?

Shalom

[A E ANDERSON]

Hardly impressive that a mora d'asra of Bene Beraq, no less, couldn't construct a heter to use the tap to get water on Shabbat. It doesn't take much of a chochem to dream up humras.

Indeed, his failure or inability to matir the status quo makes, in effect, shogegim (inadvertent transgressors) of basically the entire religious population of Bene Beraq.

[Yaakov]

A E ANDERSON:

This is an important point. Given the various levels of doubt on the use of electric motors on Shabbat in any case, and the Rabbinic nature of the prohibition, a mechanical rather than an halachic solution is very weak.

"The real power of the Rabbi is the power to permit" has been forgotten. The currently Rabbinical world is, with little exception, a chumra factory, caused by and causing the retrogression of observant Judaism.

[Russian PhD]

This is an old "Humra" from Bnei Brak, if am not mistaken, from Hazon Ish. Interesting that Lubavichers usially do not consider Hazon Ish opinions.

[Barry]

Parents who follows Rabbi Landa's ruling should have their children made wards of court.

A home without running water whose residents are unable to properly wash their hands with soap under running water or need to fill buckets to flush toilets is considered unfit for human habitation.

Its not that I fear that the rabbi has investments in a water bottling plant which he is seeking to protect. I fear that that he protecting his investments in the Chevra Kadisha.

[R. Wisler]

"And if you cannot afford to hire a regular person like a pole or an irishman, you can get the spanish for next to nothing."

"We cannot yet ban shiksas from our towns, but we can ban electricity from our homes on shabbos and yom tov."

And you guys can't see that W4M is a parody of the low culture and education level of Brooklyn hareidi Jews??????

[Yochanan Lavie]

CS and Yaakov: Great exchange. I learned a lot from it, and I am reasonably familiar with philosophy.

[Bklyn11239]

Just when you thought it was safe another absurd ruling. I think he should have to carry water from a well and get a job. He lives in a strange world. Not my Judaism.

[Bklyn11239]

@Rabbi Simon--sshh--don't give them any ideas, the next thing we know we'll have demands to unplug refrigerators on Shabbat. Moshe Rabbeinu didn't use a fridge.

[John Nagle, Silicon Valley, CA]

Assuming you buy into the whole concept, the rabbi is right. This is the same concept that led to energy-hog "Kosher elevators" that stop on every floor, to avoid button-pushing. If you have a water pump (or a water heater) it should have to run constantly to avoid the water flow causing a pump or heater start. The excess water has to be dumped back into a tank somewhere. (There are "kosher hot water heaters". Flame runs all the time, OK; flame runs intermittently, authorities differ. Tankless heat-on-demand, not OK.)

This is approaching the level of nuttiness one associates with strange cults.

[effie]

Approaching??? Nah, it has already gone way pass nuttiness and cult behavior.

[BeenThereDoneThat]

It's all about the loopholes.

It's the new Toireh.

[Rachel2]

Since my only access to learned and intelligent Jewish minds are those who post on Failed Messiah, I have a serious thought to share. Do any of you understand the impact on the average mentsch re: the scandals, lies, debauchery, theft, nepotism et al? I dont mention this to suggest exposure stop or discovery of these matters end, but I cannot be the only one feeling cut off at the knees and desiring only a one-on-one with Hashem now in prayer etc. I wish I had the brilliant wit of many of you who make me laugh so hard at times, but I ask myself what is left distinguishing Jews as 'chosen' from the accruing evil seen in humanity?

[Shmarya]

Chosen in that context doesn't me better – it means having special things to do that other groups of people are not asked to do.

It does not presume Jews are better or more good or less evil.

It does, however, expect us to act holy.

Are we doing that?

Not really.

And that isn't because some of us watch TV on Shabbos or eat salmon in non-kosher restaurants or don't keep kosher at all.

It's because some of the most visible among us are often the least careful about treating human beings with kindness and honesty.

Anyway, being chosen isn't a guarantee of good behavior – it is an EXPECTATION of good behavior.