The Silence Of Haredi "Gedolim"

"The main problem concerning Beit Shemesh is our silence, the disturbing silence maintained by religious, haredi people. We are the first people who really ought to come out and oppose such extremism," Rabbi Dr. Dov Halbertal said. Halbertal suggested that if a prominent figure, such as Ashkenazi haredi leader Rabbi Yosef Shalom Elyashiv, issued a denunciation of violence emanating from the haredi fringe, it would cause convulsions in the Haredi world, including its extremist fringes. Yet Elyashiv persists in his silence, as do the main haredi media outlets.

Rabbi Yosef Shalom Elyashiv

Originally published at 9:51 pm CST 12-25-2011

Rabbis maintaining 'disturbing silence' amid uproar over gender segregation
Beit Shemesh is posing as a microcosm; many wonder where the rabbis have gone.
By Yair Ettinger • Ynet

The small bubble of tension that is rising about Beit Shemesh bears notice. Local elections are still far off on the horizon and Mayor Moshe Abutbul (Shas ) sits confidently atop a wide, stable coalition that guarantees him the support of the Labor Party (the world of Beit Shemesh is filled with wonders ), yet two opposition forces are kicking into high gear, preparing for a political showdown.

What distinguishes these two forces, which compete with each other, is the fact that both operate on the Haredi playing field: the "Tov" party, which has under its belt an ultra-Orthodox political success (it managed to send a representative to the city council after the last elections, overriding the objection of local rabbis and religious functionaries ); and the "Am Shalem" faction, led by Shas renegade and former MK Haim Amsalem, who recently established a power center in Beit Shemesh.

These two rebellious movements appeal to moderate Haredim, English-speaking Haredim, disappointed Shas members, Haredi "home-owners" (referring to ultra-Orthodox who work for their living ) and others who are alienated from traditional leaderships of Shas and other mainstream religious parties. Beit Shemesh is filled with such off-the-mainstream Haredim, particularly in the town's new neighborhoods.

Eli Friedman, chairman of "Tov," and Dov Lipman, a representative of Am Shalem, gave interviews on secular media outlets, and Lipman expressed himself on Facebook. Their viewpoints acutely attack Haredi extremists, and strike squarely against Mayor Abutbul. Nobody can cast doubt about their strict level of Orthodox observance, and for both, it is important to be identified as a "Haredi" activist; but under current extremist circumstances in the city, they sound as though they belong to Meretz. The future of these two movements remains unclear, yet both bear witness to important facts of the past and present in Beit Shemesh. And Beit Shemesh is in many ways a miniature representation of the Haredi world, and of the State of Israel as a whole.

Many wonder about where the rabbis have gone. Can it be that the current media uproar, in which virtually every day Haredi extremism reaches the front pages of the newspapers, hasn't reached the rabbis' attention? Can it be that the norms of the outside, secular political world are completely foreign to them? Are the statements and denunciations uttered by the prime minister kept away from them? Do the rabbis have nothing to say about acts of violence that occur in Beit Shemesh?

The simple answer is that the Haredi rabbis, particularly in the Ashkenazi community, do not feel committed to any agenda or public viewpoint, certainly not anything rooted in media coverage. They do not "respond" and, assuming they are aware of public consternation concerning the Haredim, do not feel obligated to expectations of any sort harbored by secular Israelis, who believe they (the rabbis ) should deal with this or that phenomenon. None of this, however, is directly relevant to Haredi extremists in Beit Shemesh, who do not oblige dictates given by the mainstream Haredi world. In recent years these elements seem to have spun far from the main Haredi rabbis.

"The main problem concerning Beit Shemesh is our silence, the disturbing silence maintained by religious, Haredi people. We are the first people who really ought to come out and oppose such extremism," stated Rabbi Dr. Dov Halbertal Sunday. Halbertal suggested that if a prominent figure, such as Rabbi Yosef Shalom Elyashiv, issued a denunciation of violence emanating from the Haredi fringe, it would cause convulsions in the Haredi world, including its extremists fringes. Yet Elyashiv persists in his silence, as do the main Haredi media outlets.

Comments

[maven]

Why would they condemn this violence? Its exactly what they've been fighting for since the start of the state- the unraveling of the state from within as a result of charedi growth! This was Menachem Porush's oft stated policy from the earliest days.

[in the know]

Elyashiv is very sheltered from the outside world by his henchmen so he onlyy comments on what they want him to comment on. Its an old old problem with many older gedolim today even in america

[KJ]

Can it be that the norms of the outside, secular political world are completely foreign to them?

I think it is not that it is foreign to them it is simply that they really don't care.

These are not elected officials who must every so often face their constituency and must prove themselves to be re-elected so they must constantly pander to the media. "Gedolim" do not need the approval of Joe Blow of Yahoosville NC. They simply care about what their followers say, or more correctly, the followers only care what the gedolim say.

Anyway, engaging with the media is never a good strategy and in most cases backfires.

[Yochanan Lavie]

This crop of "gedoylim" are the most misanthropic, benighted individuals ever to reach Jewish religious leadership. They will not condemn violence because they probably condone it.

[thinking outloud]

where are these Chareidi homeowners and where can i find more of them? can we move them around the country so be mashpia on the rest?

[dlz]

There is no chance of the extremists listening to anyone. That is as clear as day to anyone who has the misfortune of knowing them at all closely. They are absolutely convinced that only they know the truth.

[itchy]

I don't know who this rabbi dr halbertal is but he obviously doesn't understand the inner goings of the extrmists. They don't listen to rabbi's, let alone rav eliashiv who in their eyes is a zionist nothing better than ben gurion.

[David]

How is it possible to be "religious" and Charedi at the same time? If they were religious they wouldn't be calling little girls and women "sluts", "shiksas" (not that there is anything wrong with that) or spitting on them.

The Charedim, if anything, are just ritualistic in an OCD type of way and whatever it is they do, it has little relation to Halachic Judaism. I mean, one of the most fundamental things a Jew can do is to work and be productive for society and also to educate your children but they do neither of these things.

The Charedim must be made to be observant of Judaism or get out of the picture. I'm sure they would be most welcome in Iran or North Korea, as long as they are prepared to work. If they are not prepared to work, and thus would not be accepted elsewhere, their voting rights must be revoked. It simply does not make sense, at least in Israel, that a group which expects the public dole (since they REFUSE to work) should also be allowed to vote themselves more "benefits".

[A. Nuran]

YL, how dare you say they condone violence!
They wholeheartedly believe it's God's Will.

[Yaakov]

It is better to remain silent and be thought powerful than to speak and confirm your impotence.

The descent to the far right by the charedim is a structural effect. The system of thought they've developed makes any other outcome impossible. There are several mechanisms working together here, let's look at two:

Isolation
This is not only social but genetic as well. You can use "inbred" as an epithet but from a purely clinical point-of-view it is problematic. These people exist not only in an intellectual echo chamber but in a genetic one. There have been enough generations to do damage.

Doctrine
The charedi doctrine of "Yiddishkeit" involves several destructive elements at odds with (what I believe are) the goals and methods of Torah. One is the principle of regression. That is, each generation is "further from Sinai". This means that unlike how the world actually works, charedim are, by their own light, declining into ignorance. We "stand on the shoulders of giants" while they lay in the dirt and have giants standing on their backs.

Surely we see this darkening process from outside, but it is a necessary doctrinal element for them. The difference is, they embrace the endless chumrot which, we are taught, always come from ignorance, while we decry the twisting of our religion.

And, because the appearance of piety is always more important than actual piety. Those who would seek to moderate the rightward tumble are labeled impious. The truth is, the most pious among the charedim are the very few who will take a stand against the race to chumrot. They find themselves marginalized, by the shouts (and stones!) of the extremists, and their lives ruined because they've not yet chosen to escape.

How will, in their view, they escape this downward spiral? Well, magically, of course. The escape clause is Moshiach. They will descend down and down, until one day "he" appears and, "then a miracle happens". This is not well thought out because Moshiach will know how to do it.

In the end, very much like other extremists we talk about (see: Muslim extremists) the charedi extremists (and, I think, it is not yet all of them, but those who can coexist with non-charedim are fading out, as described above) are "using up civilization". They make no contribution to it, they have no interest in advancing it, they use what benefits them and call the rest evil.

For me, the sincerity of their belief is neither so obviously the case for many, nor sufficient even for the most deluded, to matter. It has become a battle for the Torah, which, unlike their dark vision of it, is supposed to be a source of light. At one time I had no problem at all being called "charedi", but that was a decade ago. Today, I consider them something other than what I learned was "Jewish". They've abandoned the Torah to worship themselves, and I am not joining.

[Litvish]

They've abandoned the Torah to worship themselves, and I am not joining.

Posted by: Yaakov

Exactly.

They are a perfect example of avodah zorah, worshiping the golden calf of harediism, mitsvotism.

They should be added to the list of plagues in the hagodo.

[adams]

But it is the Rabbi's who can make a difference if they wanted to. the rile up the population with calling them to demonstrate in the first place (Hafgoinah).

Pressure can be put on these Rabbi's to change their message.

I just yesterday witnessed a wonderful thing.

I am in catering a bit and we had a LeChaim.

In this family you had Beis Yaacov dressed girls fully covered young teens. and you had non tznius dressed relatives, for a pervert like me, took my breath away, to call this a skirt, it was more like a slighly large pair of shorts, yet all these people were interacting with love, I saw this.

This is how it can be. If these Rabbi's at the top will change their tune.

At the same time, it must be publicized amongst other Jews to not give one penny to Chareidim. This means, I know many Heimishe businesses that support them. THis means men who don't learn on a regular basis and are totally in business as are their sons. We must prevail upon them to not give any money to such institutions that do not stand for Jewish compasssion.

[who knows]

Great analysis Yaakov

[jancsipista]

Yaakov-
They've abandoned the Torah to worship themselves, and I am not joining.
Tgis i have known for over 30 40 years i was among them even today i live among them and this is exactly what i see, right on.

[Mendel]

How ironic, it's Chanuka all over again.
Haredim vs the misyavnim.
Don't forget, the Agudath Yisroel petition re sexual perverts( who can change) vs the "Statement of Principles" Of the Y U types who are in favor of respecting all "sexual orientations"(which can be abetted).
http://statementofprinciplesnya.blogspot.com/

[Yaakov]

Mendel:

There were no charedim at that time. You remind me of the worksheets that our kids brought home from day school. They had the Jews in striemelach and striped kaftans, with pharoah's army in Prussian uniforms, with rifles.

"How do we know that Moshe Rabbeinu wore a yarmulke?"
"We don't, he never took off his spudik so you couldn't tell."

[rebeljew]

Mendel

Sadly, it is not Hanukah but Vespasian. It is the battle that went on inside Jerusalem of the frum Jews against the Sikrikim.

Yaakov. Well said. How do we know that Moshe wore tzitzit. It says "and Moishe went ...". You think Moishe went without tzitzis??????

[Really?]

You know this ritualistic ocd substitute for actual religion is nothing new. As way back as the new testament Mathews said don't be like the hypocrites who stand on the corners and pray in public for all to see. It's really frightening.

[Dunash]

"Because of the sin of Geiger's Reform Shulchan Aruch, a new German Code of Law is going to be written with just one law: LEAVE NO JEW ALIVE!!"(Maggid of Kelm 1870).

"Because of the sin of Haredi Harediism self-worship, a new kitrug is being considered Above: PURGE THE LAND of Haredim!!"

[evf]

Your all a bunch of idiots and ignoramus's. You criticize the haredei world but you don't know anything about it .
These people who you want Rav Elyashuv to condemn, stoned him in his car once. They would have succeded to injure him or worse, if not that Rav Finkel Z"l ordered the Mir Yeshiva out to protect him.
Obviously to the mainstream litvish world these people are sick and demented. They also are the ones who cause - I'd say - 80% of the violence in the haredei world.
But I guess that to shmarya and the rest of you haredei haters this is just an inconvenient truth to be ignored.

[Brian]

evf- this blog is agnostic towards whether it is Haredim or non-Haredim perpetuating the violence. It is against Jewish extremism of all kinds. The fact that Haredim are guilty of perpetuating the majority of the violence mentioned in this blog speaks for itself.
If you also notice, Shmarya posts positive developments in the Haredi community, so this blog cannot be accused of one-sided bias.

[Really?]

Eve,
So why the deafening silence from elyashiv and the Gedolim? These guys def aren't shy. They speak up about banning books, concerts, etc. Somehow they never speak up about bettering their own.

[Bas Melech]

Rav Eliashev is an Agudas Yisroel rabbi. The demonstrators do not recognize his authority. They are more closely affiliated with the Eidah HaCharaidis (Bedatz). If they are Neteurai Karta, they recognize their own rabbis only.

[Bas Melech]

Yaacov, excellent post. Many others like you were proud to be charedi, taking the extra step in their avodas Hashem. Unlike today, those of earlier times still associated with normal frum and respected them. The former charedi had ahavas yisroel.

The new charedi views all other observant Jews as the enemy. Charedism is no longer expressing commitment to Hashem. It is now like a cult. Today charedism is commitment to the group and gangsterism. They display seenas cheenam, causeless hatred to anybody who disagrees even slightly with them.

[Yaakov]

Bas Melech:

I agree that they are likely to be ignored. If that's the case then why do some (many) charedi Jews defend the behavior of these religious golems? We hear both that they are "fringe", and that they are justified.

The value of speaking out is not only that it might convince them to stop but that it shows everyone that Rav Eliayshev and the other charedi authorities do not endorse, nor tolerate this behavior.

They will put Rabbi Slifkin in cherem for quoting kosher authorities but they won't assur spitting on little girls? Can you see how people are angry with "our sages"? I don't know Rav Eliayshev personally, I only know him from his actions. So far, he doesn't live up to his appellation of "gadol" in my understanding.

Perhaps you are blinded by your need to believe these men are above error, or you don't have all the facts—I don't know. But I do know that you are mistaken to defend them, and I am sorry that they've hoodwinked you.

[Shmarya]

Rav Eliashev is an Agudas Yisroel rabbi. The demonstrators do not recognize his authority. They are more closely affiliated with the Eidah HaCharaidis (Bedatz). If they are Neteurai Karta, they recognize their own rabbis only.

Posted by: Bas Melech | December 26, 2011 at 10:41 AM

But he could tell haredim to stage a mass demonstration to support those Modern Orthodox little girls who are being attacked.

But Elyashiv doesn't do that because HE doesn't support those little girls.

He agrees with what the extremists want.

All he disagrees with, perhaps, is the tactics they're using to get it.

And it isn't even clear he disagrees with those tactics.

[Yaakov]

Bas Melech:

Re-reading my response to you, I would probably edit or even delete it. I read more into your post than is probably there. Imagine that it was written to someone who was actually defending the silent gedolim rather than just explaining.

I responded to what appeared to be apologetics. It was my error to not be more discerning. I can only say that this medium is a poor one for nuance.

Please excuse the error.

—Yaakov

[who knows]

Rav Eliayshev had no problem supporting Rabbi Sherman and entire gang of Rabbis who attacked and abused converts. Why now he is suddenly shy to voice his opinion about swearing and spitting on 7-8 year old girls? The simple truth is that he is not shy and never been. He either feels that abusing little dati leumi girls (just like abusing converts and their kids)is acceptatble, or he thinks that this is a good thing and needs to be encouraged. Make no mistake about it, Rav Eliayshev and all the gadolim, and all the Badatz rebbes (the Gur, Viznits, Beltz...) they all support these attacks. Their silence speaks louder then words to prove this.

[Yochanan Lavie]

Apologies to Simon and Garfunkel (Sounds of Silence):

Hello Elyashiv, my old rebbe,
I've come to talk with you, it's heavy,
Because a shayla in my keppe,
Left its seeds while I was schlepping,
And the shayla that was planted in my brain
Still remains
Within the sound of violence.

In restless dreams I walked alone
Narrow streets of Jerusalem stone,
'Neath the halo of a street lamp,
I wore my streimel 'cause it's cold and damp
When my eyes were stabbed by the clash of a vicious fight
Of might makes right
That touched the sound of violence.

And in the naked light I saw
Ten thousand Yidden, maybe more.
People talking without speaking,
People hearing without listening,
People issuing chumrot that rabbis always spared
And no one dared
Disturb the sound of violence.

"Fools" said I, "You do not know
Violence like a cancer grows.
Hear my words that I might teach you,
Take my arms that I might reach out you."
But my words like Pesach chrayn drops fell,
And echoed
In the wells of violence.

And the people bowed and prayed
To the rebbe god they made.
And the sign flashed out its warning,
In the words that it was forming.
And the sign said, the words of the prophets are written on the ghetto walls
And pashkavils.
And whisper'd in the sounds of violence."

[Reb Chaim]

He's over 100 years old for heaven's sakes and probably has no idea of what's happeninmg outside of his bedroom and office. Maybe there should be a mandatory retirement age for rabbonim so that such senile folks are not in charge of anything after they pass their 790th birthday.

[ah-pee-chorus]

YL-

that was beautiful.

[ah-pee-chorus]

there can be no excuses for the silence of the rabbis. there are many factions of jews who ignore elyashivs ruling on wearing crocs on yom kippur. there are many frum jews who have ignored the ban on slifkins books. and many who ignore issurim placed on specific musical instruments, on CD's in general and the banning of certain performers. the 'gedolims' stances on ortho conversions and segregation are routinely dismissed. yet in all these cases the rabbis who came out with their piskei halacha surely knew that many would pay them no heed. but that didnt stop them from saying what they felt needed to be heard. so why are they all so stunningly silent here? the answer is obvious.
and if they truly despise whats going on but are afraid to speak up out of fear, then their cowardice demands they be seen as such and ignored as irrelevant in all that they say. how can one be a leader if his rulings are limited to whats popular and will make people love him? arent their rulings supposed to be based on what they think hashem demands? are they willing to stand by as these terrorists continue to cause such a tremendous chillul hashem? and out of fear? let them show some true emunah and speak out for what is right.
unless of course their silence is meant to show their tacit approval.

[Yochanan Lavie]

Thanks, APC.

[Bas Melech]

I agree that Rav Eliyeshev and other Agudah and Eidah rabbis should condemn the thugs.
Silence is no always golden. If one sees a wrong and doesn't speak against it, s/he will get punished.

[Alan from Mérida]

Since when has Rabbi Yosef Shalom Elyashiv and his handlers made any sense?

[Bas Melech]

Who attacked women and children? Amalek,yms. Whoever remains silent must support followers of Amalek, yms.
These so called zealots want so much to defend their beliefs, they've morphed into Amalek, yms.

[Just a thought]

I guess most of you don't realize or care that
Reb Elyashiv Shlita is over 100 years old. He refuses to be involved in most issues, is kept nearly completely isolated by his handlers including his crazy grandson Aryeh, and is for the most part disregarded by the extremists causing all the trouble.

[Hp]

Haredi Rabbis need to speak louder to condemn this violence even if some haredi folks refuse to listen to them.

This is especially true some haredi rabbis get involved in many minute things, like banning Slifkin, to condemning crocs on yom kipper to worrying about color of women's tights.

[dlz]

Shmarya:
How do you know that Rav Elyashiv even knows what is going on in Bet Shemesh? If no one told him (and AFAIK it is not easy to get in now) he doesn't even know about it. I assure you that he hasn't read a newspaper in several decades, at least.

[Shmarya]

He's obligated to know what's going on.

This isn't a small story.

And if he doesn't read papers or take other steps to know, he's a rasha, pure and simple.

[Adam Neira]

It may be a case of too many vested interests. The Gordian Knot can be cut however. Readers will be familiar with the Twelfth Article of Faith concept.

[motti]

the title of this thread "the silence of the gedoilim" is an allusion to the fact that think think their poop doesnt smell