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November 30, 2011

Haredi Rabbis Launch Secret Initiative To Oppose Orthodox Acceptance Of Gays

Rabbi Shmuel KamenetzkyThe initiative is endorsed by Agudath Israel of America's number two rabbi, Shmuel Kamenetzky and relies heavily on the false idea that all homosexuals can be "cured."

Rabbi Shmuel Kamenetzky

Jayson Littman broke this story on the Huffington Post a couple days ago. I didn't want to post or link to it until I had time to read the documents.

The good thing about this initiative is that it tells haredim to treat people struggling with same sex attraction as human beings, to be nice to them, to be welcoming and caring, and it comes out against parents shunning gay children and evicting them from family life (although if the child is openly gay and not at all interested in trying to change, that kind and gentle policy may shift back to shunning and eviction.) This should help some kids by keeping them off the streets, out of homeless shelters and out of early graves.

On the other hand, there is much bad.

Gays who are content being gay and who reject the mumbo jumbo of the rabbis don't appear to merit the same love and compassion the rabbis reserve to those who are confused by their sexuality and/or struggle against it.

The letter rabbis are expected to sign also insists that all homosexuals can change, that no human being is born homosexual, and it claims great success for widely discredited therapies which purport to "heal" homosexuality and make participants straight.

And the rabbis say they know with absolute certainty that no person can be born homosexual because God doesn't play tricks on his creations, and since in the Torah God forbade homosexuality, God creating homosexuals would be a violation of that rule.

These same rabbis will tell you with a straight face and with no sense of hypocrisy or shame that God created the world old, with fossils buried in the earth in time-stamped layers to make it appear as if the world was really hundreds of millions or billions of years old, when it is really exactly 5772 years old.

So when rabbis need to say that homosexuality is an illness, that people are not created gay and that people can always stop being gay, they say God does not deceive his creations to prove it.

When these same rabbis need to say the world is only 5772 years old when science has clearly shown that it is exponentially older, they say God put fossils in the ground to test our faith.

Hypocritical much these haredi rabbis?

The rabbis have, as usual, ignored the science and the empirical research and have instead decided to rely on interpretations of Talmudic passages, quack science and Christian fundamentalist 'science.'

That is bad news for any rational person who cares about the truth.

It is also profoundly bad and dangerous news for gay Orthodox teens, not simply because of the illogic of it all but because the therapies they will be directed to are for the most part quackery, and what will happen to these kids when their sincere attempts to "heal" fail is anyone's guess.

[Hat Tips go the many readers who send Jayson's post to me.]

Comments

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Leadership of Agudah has demonstrated over and over again their ignorance of mainstream science in numerous areas. Seemingly this should be OK, as they aren't scientists, researchers, etc. The crisis is, in my opinion, not their ignorance, per se, but rather the asinine following they have who will label it 'das Torah' and take a hands off approach to challenging anything they say. All I can say is that they are losing many followers, even those who are very frum, because people are catching on that focusing on iPhones and iPod's as the root of all evil, which was a major focus of their most recent convention seminar, is completely out of touch with families who are looking for something real-such as trying to figure out how to afford a Jewish education, keeping their children connected spiritually, healthy relationships, etc.

Although it represents a small step forward for the Haredi establishment, it's still appalling, and doesn't come close to the more compassionate approach advocated by the more liberal Modern Orthodox rabbis who released this declaration, which Jayson also references (which is still not great, but by comparison... ).

I just wanted to get that in before the frummies, raging conservatives and resident psychiatric patients show up to give us their considered opinions.

Here, I'll get one of them started -

"Yidden! We must be on guard against this terrible aveira! This is why so many women on the Upper West Side can't find husbands... !"

The Tiferes Yisraels' approach to the age of the universe would resolve your contradiction. Namely, that the layers and age were legitimate remnants from prior creations and worlds.

The Moetzes is perhaps basing their logic on a responsa from Reb Moshe Feinstein that says that there is no natural desire for homosexuality, rather it is self induced with the intent to rebel against Hashem.

... rabbis need to say that homosexuality is an illness ...

Interesting. Do most health insurances cover treatment for Homesexualitis?

I am also curious if most homosexuals believe that they are ill and therefore in need of treatment? If so then why the Gay Pride parades?

The Tiferes Yisraels' approach to the age of the universe would resolve your contradiction. Namely, that the layers and age were legitimate remnants from prior creations and worlds.

Yeah - or perhaps the Torah and the Sages are simply wrong.

The Moetzes is perhaps basing their logic on a responsa from Reb Moshe Feinstein that says that there is no natural desire for homosexuality, rather it is self induced with the intent to rebel against Hashem

Naturally. That they listen to - but when he told them they no longer had to worry about Cholov Yisroel milk, that they ignored.

"God doesn't play tricks on his creations"

Perhaps not. But people play tricks on other people. And that what this is all about.

Obviously Feinstein was not infallible - as proved by the ridiculous pronouncement quoted above.

A gay friend of mine, another ex-chosid, told me that when he came out to HIS rebbe, the rebbe told him that it is obvious that sexual orientation is either an inborn trait or one that is acquired so early on in childhood that it is unchangeable as far as changing one's make-up is concerned. We cannot understand why God would create people in a particular way and then forbid them from acting on their natural tendencies. BUT HE DID, just as he has done in limiting, for example, heterosexual women from having more than one husband or agunos from having sex with anybody. The Torah's commandments- the rebbe said - from sexual prohibitions to Shabbos to kashrus to loving your neighbor and honoring your parents - are ALL about making us limit our natural inclinations, to 'perfect' ourselves by acting only within the parameters of Torah - that's what the commandments of the Torah are all about.

Nobody said it is easy.


Posted by: Gevezener Chusid | November 30, 2011 at 07:00 AM

Please.

You compare limiting a woman to one husband at a time to forcing a person to be celebrate FOR THEIR ENTIRE LIVES?

You're insane.

If you had been born gay you'd probably be openly gay by now and not at all frum.

Shmarya, ain't nothing to celebrate about being celibate!
(couldn't resist)

When a man is sick, do we care where he got it or do we focus on how to cure it? So you have a bad heart, how can a doctor fix it? So you have trouble sleeping, or you have a mental condition that stops you from learning, what can we do to help you? It is the same with the homosexuals. Clearly something is wrong with them, wether they were born that way or the problem comes later, it is harmful to be one of them so how can we fix it? I find it typical of the "science" people that when it comes to this, they throw science out the window and proclaim "nothing to be done here! must accept things as they are!" Maybe the therapy works, maybe it does not and we need to find another. But lets not pretend that it is ok to be gay, when it means no kinder for the future, no learning (how can they learn when they are at war with what they should be learning?) shame, and above all else TORAH CONDEMS IT.

And yes, it is partialy because of these people that so many women on the Upper West Side cannot find men to marry and end up alone living with cats and dogs in their bed. If more homosexuals were forced back into the closet, more of the women of the upper west side would be happy and living in Riverdale building heimishe lives for their kids and helping their husband to learn.

Why do all these rabbis look like taliban?

"forced back into the closet"
you are insane.

This thread is gay.

I've seen gay people turn straight before. It's more of a phase, I believe.

This thread is gay.

I've seen gay people turn straight before. It's more of a phase, I believe.

And yes, it is partialy because of these people that so many women on the Upper West Side cannot find men to marry...

Told you!

...and end up alone living with cats and dogs in their bed.

Oh, a bonus!

If more homosexuals were forced back into the closet, more of the women of the upper west side would be happy and living in Riverdale building heimishe lives for their kids and helping their husband to learn.

Right, that's the answer. Force them to do their halakhic duty. Forget about the environments of guilt, shame, depression and despair the kinder will grow up in - none of that matters. "Just keep having babies, yidden! All will be well!"

Ruthie is correct - you're insane. You need to be hospitalized. The fact that you are walking around loose is one of the best indictments we have of the delusion that is Haredi Judaism..

This thread is gay.

I've seen gay people turn straight before. It's more of a phase, I believe.

Posted by: centrist | November 30, 2011 at 08:10 AM

Unfortunately, your stupidity is permanent.

As regards homosexuality, the biblical position and the secular position are irreconcilable (as is for that matter their positions on adultery). The biblical position is that that homosexuality like adultery is punishable by death.

Despite what they claim, the Agudah document does not deal with how to deal with homosexuals. It only deals with how to deal with those who exhibit homosexual lust, not those (the majority) who engage in buggery which are according to halacha is punishable by death. It is as if the Agudah issued a document on adultery which refused to consider anything beyond turning and starring at a pretty married woman's behind as she walked past you.

The Hareidim appreciate that the tide of opinion regarding buggery is turning (as the generations pass) and that for those born in the 1960s and thereafter, that act is seen as morally no more harmful then masturbation and other acts of that nature. It is seen as morally neutral act.

The biblical position demanding penalties for a morally neutral act then itself becomes seen as morally wrong.

The Hareidim do not want to be seen as being morally wrong (it may harm their political connections and charitable status). Instead they make some what may seem a mild statement on homosexual lust in the hope that others will think it reflects their attitude to buggery.

This is fundamentally dishonest. Like the Skverrer rebbe welcoming and blessing a campaigning politician and then publishing a sefer in Yiddish, calling for children to hate goyim.

The motivation for Rabbi Feinstein claiming that homosexuality is self induced is that penalising people for how they are born is how the Nazis acted and even Haredim (other than Satmar) find that comparison discomforting.

that act is seen as morally no more harmful then masturbation

They think that's evil as well - equivalent to murder. I don't know why they don't prescribe the death penalty.

They also think it creates demons.

What people are missing here is that the leadership of Agudath Israel which is working with the DA's office in brooklyn to keep pedophiles out of jail and off of the public sexual offender registry also believes that pedophiles can be cured with the same junk science. These rabbonim don't see a disctinction between a pedophile and a homosexual.

As to Rav Moshe Feinstein, he had credible evidence of an authority figure in the Orthodox community sexually abusing children and regardless of what he may have tried to do privately, Rav Feinstein did not report it to the police nor did he allow others to report it to the police. As a result of both his actions and inaction more children were sexually assaulted.

And his family, Agudath Israel and other leaders and institutions continue that legacy, of allowing children to be harmed.


the more compassionate approach advocated by the more liberal Modern Orthodox rabbis?

Do you agree with them on "other sexual orientations" too e.g. pedophillia, and "filial love" (incestuousness)?
How about when they say "whether it is genetic or environmental" makes no difference.
"Environmental" means it was "learned"; if so, it can be unlearned, "cured".


3. Halakhah sees heterosexual marriage as the ideal model and sole legitimate outlet for human sexual expression. The sensitivity and understanding we properly express for human beings with other sexual orientations does not diminish our commitment to that principle.

This thread is gay.

I've seen gay people turn straight before. It's more of a phase, I believe.

Posted by: centrist | November 30, 2011 at 08:10 AM

your nuts

are you saying that you are any of us that hangs out with gays all of a sudden can turn and be attracted to the same sex.

did someone have to tell you Moshe remember you are supposed to be attracted to Rachel and if not you would not know this and maybe be attracted to a man.

and anyway the Torah does not condemn one who is gay just the act

on a side note

how come we never hear secret document that rebbies say

all should sign not to do any fraud even thought it has become acceptable amounts our people
do not take money from people who got their money from questionable means

yes do not hesitate to tell scammers fraudsters people who lie to get section 8 to go to therapy and say they can be cured for their impure inclination of stealing.

interesting it seems that a whole part of the torah has been deleted for these rebbies


"Environmental" means it was "learned"; if so, it can be unlearned, "cured".


3. Halakhah sees heterosexual marriage as the ideal model and sole legitimate outlet for human sexual expression. The sensitivity and understanding we properly express for human beings with other sexual orientations does not diminish our commitment to that principle.

Posted by: Mendel | November 30, 2011 at 09:19 AM

studies show it was not learned it was just natural for them just like you where sexually attracted to woman (not learned I hope) gay people just knew i guess they can tell since their juices started percolating when they saw someone from the same sex and not the opposite sex

Mendel

"And a man who lies with a male as one would with a woman both of them have committed an abomination; they shall surely be put to death; their blood is upon themselves"

That does not sound particularly sensitive or understanding.

The traditional and modern views on homosexual practices are irreconcilable. You cannot square the circle. You cannot spin the biblical statement to suggest sensitivity or understanding

In 1598 the bishop of Waterford was hanged for homosexuality (under a law he had helped institute). If a Christian was to say today that this bishop was shown sensitivity and understanding he would be laughed at.

"If more homosexuals were forced back into the closet, more of the women of the upper west side would be happy and living in Riverdale building heimishe lives for their kids and helping their husband to learn."

Maybe the women should move to Baltimore instead of forcing homosexuals back into the closet. Or maybe the women are just not marriage material! They could be nuts like you.........

Barry_-
I agree with you.Seymour reposted something from my own post. My point was if it is learned(environmetally), it can be unlearned.

Seymour--
A kleptomaniac was not born that way either. In like manner, children are not born "thieves"; they merely believe that there are no "personal property rights--that everything belongs to them for the taking-- until they are taught otherwise.
Homosexuals need to learn that they have no "right" to what is actually set aside for another person's husband or wife:
One must cleave to his wife, and they should become one flesh.

>until they are taught otherwise.

So do believe, as the leadership of Agudath Israel believes, that pedophiles also can be similarly cured, despite the medical literature to the contrary?

Should be:

So do YOU believe, as the leadership of Agudath Israel believes, that pedophiles also can be similarly cured, despite the medical literature to the contrary?

Trying to teach scientific fact to a people that reject science altogether is like trying to teach your dog a soliloquy from Hamlet.

Kamenetzky and Agudath Israel subscribe to the junk science around homosexuality and paedophilia as it enriches the coffers of their fellow travellers. As with all of these neo-neanderthals, it would be better to relegate them to some place on earth where they can keep their ignorance to themselves and not infect others.

Homosexuals need to learn that they have no "right" to what is actually set aside for another person's husband or wife:
One must cleave to his wife, and they should become one flesh.

Posted by: Mendel | November 30, 2011 at 10:23 AM

there is a flaw in you thinking

the other person is not going to be someone wife husband they are gay too.

again sexual attraction is not learned did someone have to tell you to like girls or did you get hard when you saw a pretty one (sorry to be so vulgar)

gay men got hard when they saw a nice male not woman it just happens

As someone wrote above: "As regards homosexuality, the biblical position and the secular position are irreconcilable."

That's right. If you buy into the religious morality of the Old Testament, you have to accept that gays are an abomination. If you accept the concept that religion can impose arbitrary rules to please God, you're stuck. You're not here to be happy. You're here to do what God said. If you don't like it, find another religion.

(At least the haredim don't have a celibacy tradition. The Catholic Church has a much bigger problem with this, with their scandal-ridden, supposedly celibate priesthood.)

How does something like this happen that frum rabbonim should even bring up a topic like this? So if someone has a desire to eat pork we should welcome that person?
Its one thing if someone gets caught with another woman or with a man and that person is not shunned.But to say openly that i love being with a prostitute and i want you to know about it would that person be accepted?
Man likes having sex with another man and cant resist his sexual urges -fine,we all have have bad urges but do privately the sin and don't come and tell family and friends that i love doing it with another guy and im no different then anyone else and i want you to know about it. Gross youck,fe

I suppose that the secular world does have influence on the haredi community.

>it would be better to relegate them to
>some place on earth where they can
>keep their ignorance to themselves and
>not infect others.

The problem is that they are working with the Brooklyn DA to help pedophiles avoid jail sentences and the requirements of the sexual offender registry.

This junk science they believe in is putting our children in danger.

I hope haredi women and men who realize they are gay will come join the ranks of the modern ortho or conservative (or reform/reconstruct), instead of staying in the closet or opting out of Torah entirely.

People who posted here that something learned can be unlearned--I'd like to see you unlearn how to walk or how to speak.

There is great wisdom in Torah law which absolutely prohibits homosexual abominations. Even liberal Darwinists should recognize that homo-ism is a suicidal death-style. Any Jew or Darwinist with an ounce of intelligence must admit that the abominable homo-deathstyle is a suicidal one way ticket to extinction, either due to horrible death by AIDS or due to failure to reproduce.

Starting with Amalek, and throughout Jewish history, many of the worst enemies of the Jewish people have been homo-perverts.

"... the Nazi Party was conceived, organized and controlled throughout its short history by masculine-oriented male homosexuals..."

http://www.thepinkswastika.com/

RightJew

I follow the Torah and thus view the action of
homosexuality as immoral. However, to accuse gays as enemies of the jews and quoting a biased book as support is foolish, disingenuous, and offensive.

"And the rabbis say they know with absolute certainty that no person can be born homosexual because God doesn't play tricks on his creations . . . " Right. Let's try this out with actual maladies (unlike homosexuality, which is not a malady at all):

No person can be born hearing-impaired because God doesn't play tricks on his creations.

No person can be born with Tay-Sachs disease, because God doesn't play tricks on his creations.

No person can be born with Down Syndrome, because God doesn't play tricks on his creations.

Rabbis, it's time to abandon the "God doesn't play tricks on his creations" hypothesis.

Oh, well.

I am a gay man and have never had any problem with whom I am. However, lots of other people seem to as evidenced by comments here and what I hear and read everyday.

I have lived with another man for 26 years. He is the love of my life. For many years I was sad, lonely and frum. My rosh yeshivo ( Scheinberg in Y-m) tried to find a shidukh for me ( without informing me of this). They later told me that no one would want anyone like me.

I had told him I was gay. He told me it was the yetzer horo and if I just became a masmid these feelings would disappear.

They didn't disappear.

Many years later, after lots and lots of guilt, self hatred and misery, I spoke with one of the g'dolim of Lakewood and a talmid muvhak of R. Aaron Kotler. His name is Rov Dov Lesser, alov hasholom. He told me that the Torah does not condemn homosexuality.

Let me repeat that:
He told me that the Torah does not condemn homosexuality.

He explained that many m'forshim have clearly stated that since lesbians are not mentioned in Torah that the verses used to condemn homosexuality refer to sodomy ( anal intercourse - something which seems to be a minhag in much of the frum world especially in yeshivos and mikvos). Sodomy can be done by two men or a man and a woman. For some reason, most frumiks seem to prefer the former variant but that is neither here nor there.

Anyway, he told me that the majority of the frum community are uneducated morons ( no slight intended to the moron community) who blindly follow their collective prejudices. Homosexuality, he further noted, is biological and the Torah does not condemn nature.

Of course, all the above is totally beyond those who worship the rabbinical golden calf and despise hashem.


This should help some kids by keeping them off the streets, out of homeless shelters and out of early graves.

Talking about the homeless, I just received this email a few minutes ago. Maybe some people could chip in and help.

Mens Club Homeless Shelter Dinner

The Mens Club would like to thank and invite all the volunteers and contributors who have responded generously over the years. Please come to a special kiddush in your honor this Shabbat. Many members of Agudath Sholom have participated in this nice mitzvah to provide these unfortunate homeless, a holiday meal and company, when all other volunteers are home with their families.

This year, we need your help again, to provide the Pacific House homeless shelter Christmas dinner.

If you can donate food, contributions or time, please contact the Shul (Cindy) 203-358-2200 or Sam Goldstein ([email protected]).

Congregation Agudath Sholom
301 Strawberry Hill Avenue,
Stamford, CT (203) 358-2200

Re homeless shelter volunteers

How wonderful to see an orthodox congregation who is actually concerned about people outside of our "daled amos". Kol ha Kavod to Cong. Agudath Sholom.

Here's my take on the faygs. Disclaimer, my opinion is mine only, I don't impose it on anyone. No particular order here.

1. Faygotry is not for me personally. I have no sexual attraction to men and have a hard time unerstanding how any man would choose Shlomo's stanky ass over a hot piece of feminality.

2. That being said, if Yitzy wants to pop Shloimy in the koolo, that's two consenting adults, I wish them both, along with their wasted seed, much mazal ubracha.

3. That being said, if Yitzy and Shloimy want to flaunt their gayness, and put it out there for acceptance, they're better off finding a closet or moving to Fagville (which is located anywhere where I am not). I don't run around telling everyone what I did to my wife last night, I don't expect that two queers with daddy issues and low self esteem need my validation.

4. I believe the Torah forbids man on man rearending, and if a dude feels like he was born with the desire for men, then it's upon him to control that urge. I would never (except on this blog) take someone to task for feeling attracted to men for whatever reason, genetic or otherwise. But a sin is a sin. I'd love to murder about ten guys, 9 of them posters on this blog. But I never will despite whatever urge I have. There's a difference between having the urge and acting upon it, and possessing the urge does not make the act ok. It's a nisayon, it has to and can be overcome. By definition, if it couldn't be overcome, it can not be a sin. A critical element of any sin is bechirah chofshi.

5. Thankfully I've raised strong healthy hetero sons. For the dads out there who didn't love your child no matter what, no conditions, no caveats. Don't fail your part of the nisayon.

6. All of the above does not apply to lesbians, except the real butchy ones with real short hair who walk around grabbing their crotch like they have nuts and spit when they smoke. You dudes are gross.

Bfeirush. In Fartscroll.

To Bfeirush

How do you know for certain that you have raised two healthy hetero sons?

Litvish, l'halacha, penetration (sodomy) of one man to another is required for the act to be considered gay. Sodomy is ossur. I don't think even the frum gay lobby (which is down the hall from the much larger frum gay closet) disputes that.

The problem is that any act of initimacy between two male adults is ossur either mdeoraisa or mdirabbanan. Not to mention the mitzvas asei of pru urvu being rendered moot.

So I would hope everyone in klal yisroel accepts that people have these inclinations, and accepts the people that have them. Its just impossible to avoid some sort of problematic halachic issue living that lifestyle.

And if the lifestyle were perfectly acceptable, would your rav have raised his children with the hadracha of making it okay if you fall in love with either a man or woman, take your pick? Doubtful.

Litvish wrote:

"Sodomy can be done by two men or a man and a woman."

Anal intercourse between a man and a woman is not mentioned in the Torah, and there are halachic views which permit it.

I guess these guys will not be happy about this:

Orthodox rabbi marries gay couple in historic wedding in DC

http://972mag.com/orthodox-rabbi-marries-gay-couple-in-washington-dc/27424/

@Posted by: Jeff | November 30, 2011 at 08:12 AM

LOL

Posted by: Litvish | November 30, 2011 at 01:20 PM
Thanks for sharing!

Re homeless shelter volunteers

How wonderful to see an orthodox congregation who is actually concerned about people outside of our "daled amos". Kol ha Kavod to Cong. Agudath Sholom.

Posted by: Gevezener Chusid | November 30, 2011 at 01:45 PM

Rabbi Daniel Cohen is a real doll. This shul, by the way, is the one where Senator Joseph Lieberman davens at.

Litvish: I agree with what you wrote, except that Anon is probably correct regarding Hetero buggery. Like Rochel, I thank you for sharing and wish you much hatzlacha.

Various rabbonim poskin differently on sodomy. I know at least one man who received a heter from a famous posek in Israel for anal intercourse with his male partner. Heterim are very individual.

The general consensus according to R. Lesser, as he told me, is that sodomy is ossor but that other sexual acts between two men are not. I cannot comment on what Anon wrote.

Homosexuality, per se, cannot be prohibited because it is created by hashem and, he told me, the Torah knew this. I am quoting him. The Torah doesn't prohibit nature. It prohibits behavior.

There is now abundant evidence that homosexuality is biological. Genetic, biochemical, neurologic, and other scientific studies are demonstrating what many have known for a long time.

Hashem created homosexuals as an intentional part of his world.

The intimacy I have found with my partner is the most satisfying thing in my life. I never believed that I could experience such a deep sharing with another human being.

I have no hesitation to compare it with any other couple. We have worked hard over 26 years to build this intimacy. Like any relationship it takes work.

It is founded on honesty, mutual love, and the willingness to put our relationship above our personal needs. He is the only person in the world I can tell everything without any fear of being condemned or judged. He accepts me for whom I am, exactly as I am including many things I have difficulty accepting about myself.

When I have been sick he cared for me when no one else would. When I lost everything he was always there for me. I never trusted myself or another human being totally since I had so many disappointments with others. Our mutual trust has taken years to develop and it is rock solid, the product of much common work.

This is our reality and you will not find it in the media or political demonstrations.

Befirush wrote "I don't run around telling everyone what I did to my wife last night,"

But you also don't hide the fact that you have wife.

Some of my good friends are gay men and I was friends with them before I, or even they, knew they were gay (going through the dating women phases). I had the honor and pleasure of being at the wedding of one of my friends with his partner. It was lovely and I was thrilled.

One thing I am certain of is that no one chooses to be gay who is not. Why would they? Even in the best of circumstances it is a harder life due to the discrimination they inevitably encounter. So it amazes me that people cannot accept that a person who is gay really feels an attraction to the same sex. And as Litvish (Litvish | November 30, 2011 at 03:35 PM) describes, why begrudge these people this wonderful experience of love and partnership/companionship?

Posted by: RightJew | November 30, 2011 at 12:45 PM

As per usual, everything you say is factually incorrect, and merely an excuse for you to express your insane, frothing-at-the-mouth hatred of everyone who disagrees with you, whom you tar with the epithet "liberal" - the dirtiest word you know.

I can't believe someone as stupid and crazy as you are is capable of taking care of himself. You must be typing these gems from a group home.

To Rabbi Kamenetzky:

Thank you for the recruitment poster.
____________________________________

To all GAL's:

Masoriti Judaism accepts you as you are. No questions asked - no judgements made - no immunization records required.

So I would hope everyone in klal yisroel accepts that people have these inclinations, and accepts the people that have them. Its just impossible to avoid some sort of problematic halachic issue living that lifestyle.

Change "these people" to "all people", and put a period after the word "living", and you have a much better post.

That said - you were trying to stay on point and I get what you're saying.

Harrison, I've been trying, but it's not that easy.

@Litvish

He told me that the Torah does not condemn homosexuality.

I'll go you one further - it never directly addresses it. Neither does the Talmud.

Wise man, your rabbi.


@Bfeirush in Fartscroll

Harrison, I've been trying, but it's not that easy.

You are a lot braver than I am, dude!

Atoz, I never said I raised 2 sons, I have more than 2 that I know, and there may be even more. Of course I can't speak knowledgeably about the children I've fathered that I am unaware of.

Reminds me of a funny story, years ago I was walking with my brother and son in the City and we passed by Victoria's Secret, and as we keep walking my brother and I realize that my son is now still on the other side of the avenue behind us just oogling this stunner in the VS window. My brother turns to me and says, "Well, at least we know he ain't no fag." I was actually pissed at the time because we were late for a Ranger game and I hate missing the National Anthem, you know, just one of those quirks a person has. But as I was about to yell at him I just laughed and let him catch up.

As regards homosexuality, the biblical position and the secular position are irreconcilable

I think a reasonable compromise would be the missionary position.

Sorry to use the analogy, but the overwhelming majority of frum Jews would be Nazis, Nazi collaborators, and Nazi sympathizers, or at best “decent” people who would do nothing, if anyone ever came after homosexuals the way the Nazis came after Jews.

Allah, Jehovah, Baal, Vishnu, protect your gay children from Fartscroll. Have one of his children or grandchildren come out of the closet. Drive a stake through his heart, made cold by Torah, in his declining years.

Yochanan: You are one of the Righteous. We'll honor you as a religious Jew who isn't utterly evil (to paraphrase the Tanya).

Rebitzman,

I think that ultimately what I'm saying (and again, keep in that for me blogging is 95% entertainment and if I have a choice of making a sound point or stirring the proverbial cholent the latter will prevail, and by any means possible) I would like to see the view on homosexuality become very simple: Hate the sin, love the sinner. And even more so, hate all sin, with no distinction between sodomy and any other sin as set forth by the Torah.

I don't believe anywhere in the Torah there is a source for hatred, but for the Amelikites, and every now and then, a Red Sox fan.

Vayikra 19, 18 doesn't say, "but thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself, except fags." So this admonition means that we need to love gays, criminals and as difficult as it sounds have compassion even for sinners like the man who killed Leiby Kletsky. I'm not comparing him to anyone but my point is clear - the possuk does not exclude anyone.

As for you comment "Neither does the talmud..." address homosexuality, that is not entirely accurate.

First off, regardless of what science says, the Torah view on homosexuality is that it is behavioral and absolutely not inborn. The genrations of Noach, Sdom, and Mitzrayim all openly practiced homosexuality and we are admonished not to follow those ways.

Additionally, there can be no doubt that there is a clear delineation between the desire to commit a sin, and an act (or failure to perform an act) which the Torah defines as a sin. But the Torah repeats many times (Bamidbar 15, 39, as one source) not to follow or act on such desires.

Prenthetically I would note that on a very basic level if we as a religion espoused the hatred of gays because sodomy is "toeivah," we would never have a minyan in any shul because we are all sinners. Koheles says it best, see 7, 20).

Having mentioned toeivah, taking idols, eating non-kosher food, trying to go about contacting the dead, these are all toeivah. The common thread among all sins the Torah defines as toeivah are that they are based in pagan custom or action and and the values of that society are antithetical to Judaism.

I do believe the medrash says that Paroah brought Yoseph into the palance with the intent of having sex with him, by the way.

In any event, the gemara in Nedarim 51 (a or b ;-) states that the word Toeiva is an acronym for Toeh ata bah - you are straying with this act (the act of abandoning sex with a woman in favor of another man.) Which means that by abandoning heterosexual life a person is straying from one of his primary goals, to create a family (pru urvu, in essence.) This prime directive and purpose of man is what is the underlying issue, and not necessarilly the "dirtiness" or "abhorrence" of the act itself. It's not that a homosexual relationship is unholy per se, buut it is an abandonment of a man's purpose in this World.

Listen, I'm married, and I've definitely desired other men's wives. I think that's natural. But last time I watched Letterman, number 7 of the Top Ten was don't have sex with a married woman. So I don't act on the desire not because it's not in my nature, it is in my nature, but the Torah has told me not to, so I don't. (I will steal a peak through the mechitzah every now and then. Shoot me.)

The gemara in Sanhedrin, at least one opinion, states that Cham's sin was not that he castrated his father, but that he had anal with him. Anothr talmudic reference there although I don't believe there was much more to that reference that I can recall. I just tried looking it up and can't find the page. It's in perek vov somewhere, I think.

Anywho...back to work.

Could you all shut up about the age of the universe? What difference does that make in your life? Who cares.

Fleishig, only a sterling silver stake will work, I am imperveious to any other. And it has to be before daylight.

Turd, your post is the first ever that made me laugh out loud on this blog. My hat is tipped to you sir, that is hysterical.

And yes, it is partialy because of these people that so many women on the Upper West Side cannot find men to marry and end up alone living with cats and dogs in their bed. If more homosexuals were forced back into the closet, more of the women of the upper west side would be happy and living in Riverdale building heimishe lives for their kids and helping their husband to learn.
Posted by: Waiting4Moshiach | November 30, 2011 at 07:23 AM

What gives, a few days back you proclaimed that the Upper Westside woman sleep with their cats a dogs purposely, now you claim that they are forced because they cannot find any man. Moreover, are you into bestiality too?

Litvish,

What is the difference between sodomy and homosexuality?

Litvish,
What is the difference between sodomy and homosexuality?
Posted by: Betzalel | November 30, 2011 at 06:55 PM

Anal sex, v. blow job.


Hellenism=Homosexualism=Paganism=Nazism

"... the Nazi Party was conceived, organized and controlled throughout its short history by masculine-oriented male homosexuals...In fact, the party grew out of a number of groups in Germany which were centers of homosexual activity and activism. Many of the characteristic rituals, symbols, activities and philosophies we associate with Nazism came from these organizations or from contemporary homosexuals. The extended-arm “Sieg Heil” salute, for example, was a ritual of the Wandervoegel (“Wandering Birds” or “Rovers”), a male youth society which became the German equivalent of the Boy Scouts. The Wandervoegel was started in the late 1800s by a group of homosexual teenagers. "

" ... not ten percent of the men who, in 1933, took the fate of Germany into their hands, were sexually normal..."

"Captain Ernst Roehm...A homosexual with a taste for boys...At the door of the Bratwurstgloeckl, a tavern frequented by homosexual roughnecks and bully-boys, (Captain Ernst) Roehm turned in and joined the handful of sexual deviants and occultists who were celebrating the success of a new campaign of terror. Their organization, once known as the German Worker’s Party, was now called the Nationalsozialistische Deutsche Arbeiterpartei, The National Socialist German Worker’s Party — the Nazis."

"... Male homosexuality, especially between men and boys, was considered a virtue in Hellenic (Greek) society ... In ancient Greece, as in the masculine homosexual faction in Germany, only the masculine form of homosexuality was esteemed and all things feminine were despised. The form of homosexuality which dominated Greek culture was ultramasculine and militaristic ... As we will see, the revival of Hellenic paganism became a fundamental aspect of the Nazi identity. In Nationalism and Sexuality, historian George L. Mosse notes its significance: “The Greek youth, an important national symbol in the past, reigned supreme during the Third Reich."

"The SA Brownshirts or Stuermabteilung (“Storm Troopers”) were largely the creation of another homosexual, Gerhard Rossbach (Waite, 1969:209)..."

http://www.thepinkswastika.com/

What is the difference between sodomy and homosexuality?

A staff infection in the weewee.

Seriously though, back in the day the two were probably synonymous but today you can't equate a guy running around with mascara and wearing an argyle sweater commenting about how pretty the flowers are while he prances down Broadway with two dudes heading north up the Hershey Highway. The're just not the same.

many hetero men have a fear of gays. In Many communities they sit and judge others as the day is long. So this is the same concept, sit and judge others. Who cares what 2 adults so n bed or not. I mean, why does it matter a dam to anyone else?

what benefit does it bring to make such judgements? There is no moral law that is being broken

What is the difference between sodomy and homosexuality?

Posted by: Betzalel
====
Good question, Betzalel.

Sodomy is anal intercourse. It can be done by two men or a man and a woman. It is not necessary to have homosexual feelings to do it. Most sodomy is done my heterosexuals since there are a lot more of them than homosexuals and in most sex surveys this is indicated. I doubt whether any of them would identify as homosexual.Also, in all male environments many heterosexual men have this type of sex. They are not at all gay. They are fulfilling biological urges that have no intimate feelings attached in most cases,I believe.

Homosexuality is same sex attraction. For example, Jonathan and David in Torah where their attraction to each other was greater than the attraction of either one to a woman, as we are told.

Same sex attraction does not equal sex. It is unfortunate that the term homosexuality is used, I believe, since it implies sex. Most same sex attraction does not involve sex in my experience both personal and in counseling people over the last twenty years.

I used to have a lot of sex when I was in my twenties and thirties but now find cuddling, kissing and just holding hands much more satisfying. I love to sit and talk with my partner. We do everything together. It is a much more satisfying and balanced relationship than I had when my relationships were more physical.

I suspect that most couples, straight or gay, are not principally sex-oriented if they have a very intimate, loving relationship.

There is so much misunderstanding around this subject. Much of it stems from the simple fact that we live in a sex-negative society where sex is equated with simple biological urges and is often labeled dirty. For this we have the priests and rabbis to blame in large part. Most Western religion condemns and severely limits sex since it is such a primal urge. In addition, few religious people have much understanding of sex as is obvious from some of the posts on this blog.

Before religion came along no one would have known that sex is dirty, that the yetzer horo is involved, that we need to be ashamed of our bodies. This is described in Genesis and, in my opinion, is very sad.

Hope that helps.

Posted by: RightJew | November 30, 2011 at 07:29 PM

You really need to get out more. Citing extremely biased hate books rejected by 99.9% of historians is not helping your argument.

@WrongAgainJew- you've quoted that bogus site previously. Do you even bother to think??? There were 10s of 1000s of homosexuals slaughtered by the Nazis because of their sexual orientation.

Litvish,

I can understand from your definition of both male homosexuality and sodomy that they are two different things theoretically speaking, but in the real world, aren't they the same thing?

The rabbi that you mentioned, Rov Dov Lesser, must have understood this to be true. What would he have said about this?

@WrongAgainJew- you've quoted that bogus site previously. Do you even bother to think??? There were 10s of 1000s of homosexuals slaughtered by the Nazis because of their sexual orientation.

Posted by: SkepticalYid | November 30, 2011 at 08:16 PM

and remember Himmler also thought homosexual can be cured.

but even he said there where a very small percentage that are true homosexual

@Bfeirush in Fartscroll

The gemara in Sanhedrin, at least one opinion, states that Cham's sin was not that he castrated his father, but that he had anal with him

Yes it does - but it describes an act of rape - which you will agree is not sex.

And it's Nedarim 51a - I read it as disgrace or confused, and sure seems to be talking about bestiality, not homosexuality.


Good post.

The rabbi that you mentioned, Rov Dov Lesser, must have understood this to be true. What would he have said about this?

Posted by: Betzalel
====
I live in the real world, too.

Many people think that Jews are greedy and evil people; I have met some of them.

Some might call that the real world but I would say that I am a Jew and I try to be a good person in whatever way I can.

As far as what Rov Lesser would have said, he is not here to answer your question but I can tell you what he told me.

He asked, Do you love your partner? Does he love you? Are you happy together?

These were his major concerns. You see, Rov Lesser was a major talmid of Rov Kotler who started the Beys medrash gavoha in Lakewood. He loved R. Kotler who was a true godol b'Torah. He told me many stories about how sweet and generous R. Kotler was to all people, Jew and non-Jew, how he really loved others and went out of his way to support all of them regardless of their background. He never judged people.

After R. Kotler died, R. Lesser taught in the yeshivo for many years. Finally, the right-wing rabbis took control. He called them the Jewish Taliban.

They kicked him out of the yeshivo. He no longer was permitted to give his shiur. His former talmidim were even afraid to give him Shalom. I saw them cross the street to avoid him. This was on shabbos when I was there with him.

Every week he would give a shiur in his home. Two people attended: his brother in law and a son. He spent most of the week preparing the shiur.

He was my rebbe and was the one who urged me to be true to myself as a Jew, a gay man, and a human being.

He died at age 61 feeling rejected by the community he loved but which no longer loved him.

He always told me that we only answer to hashem and not to the bearded wonders.

Yes, he made a difference in his thinking between same-sex attraction and sodomy. That he told me several times.

We make our own real world.

Don't let anyone tell you differently.

Don't let them intimidate you into denying who you really are.

As I learned from my rebbe, life is too short to deny who you are.

Litvish - and b'feirush - great, great posts...

"If you don't stand for something you will fall for anything."

- Roy Rogers


Litvish, you are lucky that you had such a wise man (Rov Lesser) in your life.

Yes, Rov Lesser helped me in more ways than either of us realized at the time.

I was drowning and he saved my life.

He helped me to believe in the decency of human beings and also to see that there are essentially holy and good people in all communities.

His very last words to me, shortly before he died, were, Life is short. It is so precious; do what makes you happy.

Then he hugged me.

I never saw him again.

Bfeirush, as foul mouthed as you are, these are great posts. Maybe YOU should write the declaration for Rabbi Kamenetsky to sign.

His very last words to me, shortly before he died, were, Life is short. It is so precious; do what makes you happy.
Then he hugged me.
I never saw him again.
Posted by: Litvish | November 30, 2011 at

What a heartwarming story.


P.S. I just saw this clip.
http://www.facebook.com/profile.php?id=1549719381

You know, corn popper, much like faygelech, I find that vulgarity has its place and use, so try not to be so friggin judgmental, ok?

Even IF people are born homo, it dosent make it not a Toeivah . If someone is born sick , like with a mental illness or cancer do we accept it or do we try to heal them. So to with homosexuality its a pervesion and we need to help people to be well. If people are born this way it could be - maybe - that in a previous gilgul they perverted themselves and know they have to rectify it. It is also brought down that in the Dor before Mashiach the erev rav and amalek will also come back as gilgulim. These are just my ideas if people are born this way, but I'm not fully convinced .

"They kicked him out of the yeshivo"

Did he tell you why?

This is one of those that you want to know "the rest of the story"

"And it's Nedarim 51a - I read it as disgrace or confused, and sure seems to be talking about bestiality, not homosexuality."

Actually both/either, see Kiddushin 82a.

"Before religion came along no one would have known that sex is dirty, that the yetzer horo is involved, that we need to be ashamed of our bodies. This is described in Genesis and, in my opinion, is very sad."

I'm not sure what religion this refers to but it's not Torah-true Judaism.

These are all common misconceptions, none with basis in reality, much like saying "all blacks drink grape soda and barbecue potato chips for breakfast," (only the inner city blacks do) or "all latinos carry knives." (only the latinos from Puerto Rico do.)

Seriously though, the Torah view on sex, as articulated most clearly in recent years by Rabbi Boteach, is not that sex is dirty. And the yetzer hara comes into play only because we have the great gift of free will, so naturally I will be inclined to desire that which is forbidden. It's actually the oldest story in the bible (the old one, not the fake new one). Adam and Chava weren't ashamed of their bodies as this poster states, as Rashi clearly states even a blind man knows he's naked. So what was it that they realized?

Prior to their aveira, Adam and Chava knew good from bad, right from wrong, but they had not internalized a yetzer harah. So they could choose to do right and wrong, and were held responsible for their choices, but the urge to do evil did not come from within. Indeed, it came from the snake - an external source. Since the yetzer harah did not reside from within, their nakedness was innocent and in no way sinful. They saw no difference between a hand, whose purpose was to give charity and to do good deeds and the parts of the body which are used to "be fruitful and multiply." One was no different than the other. With every organ they could fulfill the will of G‑d or vice versa, so no organ was shameful, nor did anything need to be covered.

Once they ate from the eitz, the yetzer harah became a an integral part of their psyche, from within. Lust – a passion which is much stronger than the desire to do mitzvos, a passion which is much more encompassing and has the potential to be seriously misused – became a part of them as well. So to suggest that they were ashamed is just too simple an understanding of the posuk.

I'm sorry, litvish, but on this point you were misguided and you are incorrect. Judaism views sex between husband and wife as a sanctified act, and as the laws of niddah demonstrate, the marital union when respected, is like no other and nothing you have experienced and apparently never will.

Proof of this is in the mitzva you have chosen to shun, pru u'rvu, which elevates sex to a mitzva - and every mitzva is a holy endeavor.

Breishis 2, 18, "it is not good for man to be alone" Judaism views marriage as the essential means of companionship, intimacy and love. Just as God created Adam and Chava from one body, the act of marriage returns us to the very same oneness Adam and Chava understood.

Judaism values sex as a means of strengthening vitally important marital bond. It is neither dirty or evil, and any suggestion to the contrary is misinformation or ignorance.

A male homosexual who engages in homosexual sex is merely an sinner, an avaryan. If he were to claim "laying with a man as with a woman" is permissible, he would at most be a mumar le-davar echad. Now, if Kamenetsky were consistent in his position, he would actively seek out and ban all sinners, especially those who drive to shul and quietly park nearby, for hillul Shabbat is as great or greater a transgression than anal sex between two males (which is the specific halakhic prohibition).


No, I think Kamenetsky and other haredis just have a hang up on sex and can't get it out of their minds. It it hard to escape noticing how only sex-related issues (tsnius, etc.) get these guys riled up and issuing fatwas. The other 500 or so non-sex related mitzvot just don't command their infatuation so.

Thanks to all who have been supportive in this discussion.

Stevee, he was kicked out of the yeshivo because he fell into disfavor with the people who took over in the 1990's. They abhorred his tolerant views on race, women, education, and other things.

Most of all they hated the fact that he had attended Harvard University and graduated at the top of his class.

They despised his creative mind, a mind that enabled him to find depth in learning that none of them came close to.

Dov was a musarnik in the best tradition. He daily made a cheshbon hanefesh and worked very hard to improve his character traits.

There are few like him around especially in the frum community today.

Just looking at the many ignorant comments on this page you will find plenty of evidence of this.

Actually both/either, see Kiddushin 82a.

Given that it's in the context of animals, I think you're making a leap. Will break down Kiddushin once the coffee kicks in.

Again, thanks.

Rebitzman, your 532 above somehow misquoted me so I don't believe the edit you suggested is relevant.

Kiddushin 82a is a mishna.

The original gemara in nedarim refers to mishkav zochor as well, I'll try to post some meforshim.

He always told me that we only answer to hashem and not to the bearded wonders.
The Torah is not in heaven, it says in the Gemara.

Posted by: Bfeirush in Fartscroll | December 01, 2011 at 12:15 AM

Not that I agree with your views, I totally disagree with every fiber in my body, but I was able to read and enjoy what you wrote, because you did not use your pornography-laced wisecracks. This goes to show that you have the ability to tame your wild side.

Litvish, thank you so much for your posts and everything you wrote. The Dov Lessers in the world get trampled, and don't have a chance against the very mean and bullying ESTABLISHMENTS usually run by ruthless, power hungry people who don't care whose lives they are ruining or whether they are representing Torah or their own misguided agendas. I am happy for you that you had Rabbi Lesser in your life and that you found happiness in your world. Thank you for all that you have shared.

"He always told me that we only answer to hashem and not to the bearded wonders.
The Torah is not in heaven, it says in the Gemara."

Actually, it says that in the torah itself: "Lo b'shamayim hee."

The beardie weirdies are not in heaven, either. They are an earthly phenomenon; a product of their cultural matrix. They are all about power, not kedusha.

Here on earth, it is up to us to interpret the torah in a humane manner, so we can live with it. That's what Litvish's wise rebbe did.

I do not mean to make light of this topic but I have to suppress a chuckle each time I come across the phrase "biblical position."

In any event, can someone explain why people who allegedly run afoul of this "command" and who hurt no onse, are the targets of so much ire and attention while the people who knowingly and openly violate the mitzvot "Bein Ad L'Chaveiro" and hurt many are not ostracized and often welcomed and honored by religious? institutions and their so-called leaders.

Fartscroll, like your namesake you can quote Mishnayos and Gemaras from here to kingdom come, and it matters not. You made very clear in your posts that your first intent is entertainment. If that is the case, then why should anyone take you seriously? You can't have it both ways - either you're kidding around and we will not take you seriously. Or you're serious about what you say.

The stuff you wrote about "faygs" and your use of the term “fag” is disgusting. I don't care if you have Mishnayos to back it up.

The bottom line is, that everyone with a brain can see that Torah is interpreted however the rabbonim want it to be interpreted. It says CLEARLY in the Gemara that someone who doesn't teach their son a trade it is as if he taught him to be a theif. Um, so why is nobody listening to that nowadays? Why are the rabbonim endorsing and encouraging everyone marrying their daughters off to boys who are learning, while shunning college educations for the boys?

Because it doesn't really matter what the Gemara says, that’s why. Because the Rabbonim can decide otherwise, even if they are changing what was done for millennia. When there is a rabbinic will, there is a halachic way, and that is the bottom line.

You have no way of knowing if someone like Litvish, who is living with his boyfriend, is engaged in the kind of sex which is the Torah prohibits, or if he is just cuddling and talking with his boyfriend. And no, it is none of your business, but why expect him to HIDE the fact that his significant other is a man? Why can't he have a boyfriend and you not be involved in what goes on in his bedroom, any more than he is in yours? Why does he get called names like "faygele" and “fag” by you? And why insist that he hide? As was pointed out by someone else – you don’t hide that you are married to a woman. Why should he hide that he is married to a man?

Because it says so in the Gemara? Puleez! That's just an excuse for you to be a bigot and throw around epithets like a little kid in a playground.

And it's really good of you not to sleep with your neighbors' wives. But let’s be honest - you don't sleep with your neighbors’ wives or murder bloggers because that's what it says in the Torah and you are suppressing your urges for God’s sake. You don't do those things because they are not morally acceptable in your society, and #1 you don't want to be socially ostracized, and #2 you want to think of yourself as a morally good person. And those are the things it boils down to.

And the same goes for your having children, and your "peru u'revu" statements and saying that gays don't fulfill their Torah obligations to procreate. What a crock. You have kids because that is what is expected of you in your society, because if you wouldn't, or couldn't, you would be looked at sideways and family, friends, neighbors and the people you daven with would ask you and wonder what the problem is, and you wouldn't fit in with your community. So - Mitzvah Boy - get off the little pedestal you built and be honest with yourself.

Using Gemara and Torah quotes to support your judgments is transparent, especially when you use epithets and then backpedal and say "I'm only kidding" or "this is only entertainment". Gay kids commit suicide because of "entertainment" - because they are bullied and taunted and ostracized by people who say "but I was only kidding". If you were bullied, and taunted and ostracized, you wouldn't think it was such a joke.

Nobody - NOBODY - Jew or non-Jew - even today with places where being gay is accepted - wakes up one day and says "I think I'll be gay". It is way too difficult for most people - having to deal with their families, communities, bosses, coworkers, and the judgment and disappointment is a nightmare. It is difficult for even the most "out and proud" people out there, other than a few celebrities that use it to their advantage, whose numbers do not exceed the fingers on one hand (and who may not be entirely honest about how "accepting" all their family members are of them).

A gay person has a difficult and painful road ahead of them, and a FRUM gay person - twentyfold.

So, stop with your religious posturing. We are all so impressed with how frum you are, not sleeping with your neighbors’ wives, and producing offspring, all because the Torah mandated it.

Show some compassion for people who have a challenge that you can be grateful that you didn't have to deal with. And if for no other reason, show compassion because it could be your own child or grandchild who will have to deal with this one day.

As for the torah obligation to procreate, "peru u'revu", same-gender couples do that too today. Lesbian couples can use a sperm bank, as heterosexual couples and women do. Gay men have several options that they more and more take advantage of such as co-creating and parenting with a lesbian, lesbian couple or single heterosexual woman (IVF is used) or surrogates. Adoption is also an option to build a family for same sex couples of either gender as it is for heterosexual couples.

Abracadabra -

phenomenal comment!!!!

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