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November 30, 2011

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Litvish

Abracadabra

I would like to get to know you better. If you are interested, contact shmarya and he will give you my e mail.

For an auto-didact you are quite impressive. I, too, am self-taught in many things. As a child because I was terribly shy and had almost no friends, books became my refuge. So I learned how to read and write from my books. What I learned in universities pales in comparison to what I learned from reading and self-study.

I love learning and can tell that you, too, love to learn.

Abracadabra

Litvish,

Thank you for your kind words.

And I agree that hateful, vicious, and angry comments are usually coming from the problems of the people who spew them, not those they are aimed at.

And btw - I don't have a college degree. I went to Charedi schools and believed what they taught me. My "education" is solely from extensive reading as an adult.

Litvish

Abracadabra

You are a voice of reason and love on this blog. I am always happy to read your posts.

I also continue to believe in the essential decency of people in spite of the hateful and sometimes mean spirited things they may do.

I tell my husband everyday how much I love him. He is a very sweet man who has been kicked and belittled a lot during his life. He comes from a midwestern, Lutheran, German-American family where no one ever went to college. When I met his family I noticed how his mother, whom I loved a lot, once said, when someone mentioned I was attending medical school, Oh, John could never do that!

It was such an unnecessary, unloving comment. So over the last 26 years I tell him in every way I can how smart he is, how beautiful he is, how much I admire him.

What has happened is that he is now reading like a fiend and becoming a real auto-didact. He no longer talks of getting cosmetic surgery for his skin ( scarring from teenage acne+) and other such things. He knows that he is smart and beautiful and has finally accepted that.

Life here in the physical world is very short. Why be mean spirited when we can be loving?

I spend about 40 minutes minimum with each patient because they desperately need to talk and to be heard. They need someone to love and support them. If they need more time they get it. They are never charged extra for the extra time. I want them to feel safe and comfortable in my office. I am a one man band; just me and a part-time secretary. Another doctor told me that I am a dinosaur. Well then, I am a happy and fulfilled dinosaur.

I have one patient from Hungary who tells me that Jews destroyed her land, that Jews are communists and enemies of Hungary. She knows that I am a Jew and she loves me. Slowly her attitude is changing. She now has confided that her family hates her and doesn't love her. We have done a lot of talking and she is becoming a more tolerant, more loving person toward herself. As she becomes more mellow, she is no longer telling me how horrible Jews are.

I have another patient who conducted a campaign against sex education in schools and who especially spoke out against gays. She knows that I am a gay man. I have consistently been here for her and her family including her sons. She knows that.

One day, after years of avoiding me, she called and asked if I would help her. I did. She has since stopped her hateful public activities.

I believe that hateful outbursts come out of the mouths of people who are very frustrated and uncomfortable with themselves. This doesn't excuse it but it does help us to understand that many of them are sick people who lash out out of anger with their own situation. It is helpful for me to remember this when I read or hear such things.

So each of us can make a difference in our own small way.

And you, dear Abracadabra, do so, too.

PS- I like your clear, well written prose. Yes, education really can make such a difference!

Abracadabra

If that person knew me, and I knew him, he and I would know that I'd treat him with the respect and yes, love that the Torah requires. And that is part of my nature. but on here? Puhleeze.

If something "is part of your nature," it is consistently so, and not only when you're not anonymous, or not on a blog.

I have no way of knowing if anyone writing on this blog is who they say they are. But I also have no reason to believe that they are not who they say they are. So, if someone is taking the time to write on a blog, time and again, and they are consistently showing a certain persona, I will believe them for a few reasons. First is because this is not a dating site, and nobody has any motivation to adopt an alternate persona from who they are. If someone is "fooling" us by pretending to be someone else, I don't care - even if that is just who they are on this website - I will accept them as the role and persona they choose to portray. The second, but more important reason, is because even if they are not who they say they are, there is a part of them who IS who they say they are here, even if that part of them is mostly hidden away, and only comes out on this blog.

And the third reason I usually believe them is because people generally feel safer when they are anonymous to tell their stories online. People tend to tell themselves that if there is judgment, it will be easier to walk away from it if they are talking to a "stranger". Somehow people psychologically rationalize to themselves that the people or person who will be judging them online doesn't "really" know them, because the forum is online. So people view the risks of revealing their true selves not to be as high, and they think that the pain of rejection and judgment will not NECESSARILY be as painful as in real life. That may or may not be true. The point is that people tend to convince themselves beforehand that it is true, and are therefore much more likely to be honest when sharing their stories on a blog.

I am not trying to "egg you on". Nor am I judging you. I was trying to have a conversation with you.

As it turns out, I am offended by what you write about gays. I have close friends who are gay and they are great people and I love and respect them. What you write about gays hurts me.

And I'm still not understanding why you think it is okay to insult and hurt people on a blog, when you wouldn't treat them like that in real life.

I'd treat him with the respect and yes, love that the Torah requires.

The Torah's requirements for treating people with "respect and yes, love" does not have an exception for blogs. It doesn't say "V'Ahavta l'rei'acha kamocha - chutz mai al ha'blog." We both know you know that, which is why I'm not understanding why you don't care.

Abracadabra

Thanks for writing all that you have on this thread.

Litvish - Ditto. What you write, your story, and your strength are inspiring. Thank you.

It is great that you are able to give your patients a listening ear in addition to being their physician. Too many doctors are in a rush, because they don't get paid enough these days. So they have to rush through as many patients as they can in order to make a living. And then, of course, there are those who just don't care.

I'm happy for you that you have made a good life for yourself despite the many challenges that life has thrown your way, and that you find comfort and strength in your belief in Hashem.

Abracadabra

Fleishike Kishke - Thank you!

rebitzman

Look, I don't bust Rebitzman's balls for driving on shabbos or whatever it is that defines him as conservative

I am so grateful, too (for the record, I do not drive on Shabbes - that would be the folks who attend Chabad).

And yes - yes I am being sarcastic.

You REALLY don't know the difference between CJ and OJ? How very odd.

Litvish

Abracadabra

Thanks for writing all that you have on this thread.

What you are doing is the truest form of Torah; defending the briah (creation) from those who would betray and defile it.

As I recall, it says in Torah that we are all made in the image and likeness of hashem, not just some of us.

I remind myself of that when I am being attacked ( both physically and verbally, as I have been) for insisting on my worthiness as a man who loves another man.

Today my last patient was a woman minister who has chosen to be a hospital chaplain. She is the mother of two boys and a girl, all grown up. She knows I am gay and also that I am a physician who spends as much time with her as she needs. Today we spent over an hour so that she could leave for her weekend feeling like a human being instead of the walking wounded.

We spoke at great length about her life. I shared with her that my strength comes from hashem and that if I try to do what I do all day from my ego, from my head, from the part of me that needs to think my way through life and control all outcomes, then I will be tired out by noon. The people who come to me are just in too much misery, physically and emotionally, for any human being to really help them unless s/he is willing to center themselves in the heart/ hashem.

I told her how I was kicked out of a yeshivo after I told the rosh yeshivo I was not interested in a shiddukh because I was gay. I told her how I was thrown out of a shul in Indiana when I was a medical intern when I let the rov know I was gay. I told her how my true calling is to serve anyone who is suffering and how this has helped me to really grow as a child of hashem.

I told her that after I left religion I found my relationship with hashem became real, became constant.

She realized that the reason she is so tired after work ( helping parents of kids who commit suicide, working with people who take their loved ones off of life support, dealing with those who are close to death and very afraid and feeling alone) is that she is trying to do it all by herself.

She and I sat in the office, in the evening after everyone in the building had gone home for the weekend. We spoke of our lives and our loves. She for her kids and patients. Me for my husband and my patients and parents.

We finally realized that when we come from the head exclusively and forget the heart we have no energy at the end of the day.

When we ask for help from hashem and live via the heart, we have unlimited energy.

I left the office today feeling really great, energized, and as I walked to my car I prayed to hashem to continue to lead and support me in all ways.

So, Abracadabra , thanks again for your many kind and supportive words which, really, apply to all of us.

Fleishike Kishke

Abracadabra -

phenomenal comment!!!!

Posted by: ah-pee-chorus

I concur. Spectacular. "Magical" in fact.

Bfeirush in Fartscroll

The funniest thing of all is you egging me on only makes it that much more fun to talk smack. I tell you waht. EMail me at idontgiveashit at gofuckyourself dot com and I will really try and behave. I'm sorry for the insults to the queers. I understand that my words are hurtful. I apologize. I'm sorry. I'm under a lot of stress now that my cardboard refigerator box has been thrown out and I have nothing to protect me from the elements under the west side highway and my last batch of cans got stolen and my cardboard sign has some spelling errors so the donations have been down. Please forgive me.

Bfeirush in Fartscroll

That's my point. Your judgments about me are no better than my judgments about anyone else here.

How do you know litvish isn't really some 19 year old high school girl? How do you know Korbendalis isn't really a mass murdering nazi relic still on the run after the war ended?

That's what's so funny. You don't know. Yet you don't hesitate to engage in the very same acts which you condemn.

I stated my view on homosexuality. I don't need to repeat myself. Hate the sin love the sinner. I'm done. I've moved on. It's still my opinion and "official" stance. If after that I want to point out that fags deprive themselves of the joy of farting by distending their sphincters hence making flatulence silent, I will. One man's junk is another mans treasure. Someone's going to read that and laugh and say that guy is funny, someone is going to read that and say that guy is an infantile jerk. Neither matters to me. And someone of the gay persuasion may read it and say that I'm insensitive to his problems. So be it. If that person knew me, and I knew him, he and I would know that I'd treat him with the respect and yes, love that the Torah requires. And that is part of my nature. but on here? Puhleeze.

Look, if you want, go make the abracadabra blog, make sure no one can post anonymously, someplace where friends can hook up and share thoughts and ideas, some fun pictures, maybe a news item and a video, and you won't get Bfeirush in Fartscroll there.

But here, I'm going to post what I'm allowed to post by the moderator, just like everyone else. My conscience will be my guide. If someone is offended by what I write, then I'll try to be more careful. I'm mean heck, a guy that can take the pain of a pummeling in his kooley can't take a joke, well then maybe I'm not the problem.

Abracadabra

Fartscroll -

I am a 613 jew, nothing less.

I guess you didn't get the memo on "Ona'as D'varim" - hurtful words. It's one of the 613, check it out. Unless, of course, you rationalize that it isn't REALLY one of the 613 mitzvos, or that your words aren't meant to be hurtful. I'm sure you'll creatively figure out how to get around that one and continue to talk trash and gutter language and throw around hurtful epithets and insults here "because you can".

if I want to use this blog for entertainment I will.

Of course you will and of course you can. Nobody is taking that away from you, and nobody but Shmarya, your web access provider, and your eyesight can take that away from you. That's my whole point. You HAVE a choice. You CAN do whatever you want. And I'm not telling you what you CAN or CANNOT do. I'm telling you that it's all up to you, and that you have a choice. And you can choose to hurt people and throw around nasty epithets and insults or you can choose to be a mentch. And nobody here can control that but you.

And if this blog ...has become a support group for wayward otherwise orthodox gays that pick and choose what parts of the Torah they adhere to and need a shoulder to cry on while they delude themselves into thinking they are living a Torah true lifestyle...

So that is what is bothering you - you're jealous that Orthodox gays get to call themselves frum, but get to not keep one of the mitzvos - and YOU WANT TO ALSO! You think THEY are getting a free pass and IT'S NOT FAIR!! You don't want to miss the Rangers game on Shabbos, and it's simply not fair that YOU can't also pick and choose your mitzvos and just go to a few games on Shabbos and still have the club accept you (or you accept yourself) as frum.

You know what, you're 100% right. I think you SHOULD be allowed to go to the game on Shabbos and still be a card carrying member of the "living a Torah true lifestyle" club. Go for it. Start a new movement.

Or better yet - start a new movement of people who regularly engage in Ona'as Devarim and still consider themselves as living "a Torah true lifestyle".

And no, I don't know anything about you. But you reveal far more by your comments than you think. Even your tough, angry, mean comments that you hide behind, betray you.

Bfeirush in Fartscroll

Joe it's not so much that my sight as the resolution and contrast on my acer monitor - it's a large screen that accommodates a lot of open windows and I like it a lot but it has been discontinued and I paid way too much for it to chuck it after what is probably only two and a half years.

Joe Field

And it doesn't matter anyway because I won't be around much longer because for some reason the gray letter I have to read and re-type to submit my posts are getting harder and harder for me to see and it takes me three tries to get it right. So that'll be the end of me anyway.
Posted by: Bfeirush in Fartscroll | December 02, 2011 at 10:30 AM

As nature takes its course, your hearing goes first, next is your eyesight, than your motor skills, and finally your brain. I guess you are on your way to the bus stop.

Bfeirush in Fartscroll

And it doesn't matter anyway because I won't be around much longer because for some reason the gray letter I have to read and re-type to submit my posts are getting harder and harder for me to see and it takes me three tries to get it right. So that'll be the end of me anyway.

Bfeirush in Fartscroll

Abra, if I want to use this blog for entertainment I will.

If I want to make fun of fags on this site I will.

If I want to post anonymously on this site and say whatever the hell I want I will.

Because Shmarya is the moderator here.

Frankly, I don't use and don't like hearing words like fuck and shit in spoken form. But in written form I believe they have their place. If that makes me a ______________, so be it. I'm not perfect.

As for getting back to your bullshit about why I had kids, why I got married, society, blah blah blah, I am just too busy right now to go back and read the post, but you are no one to say why someone did something, what their motives are. Your pretentious assumptions are no less offensive than me pointing out that the fays are virus breeders. For all you know I'm a handicapped retard who blows into his pipe keyboard to type, rolls meals to homeless people in my motorized wheel chair, and gave 19 million dollars out of the 20 I got in the settlement from the truck that hit me to find a cure for aids. That's what makes your shit stink. You don't know anything about me other than I can boot up a computer and type.

I'm sorry the fags have it rough. I believe they delude themselves and rationalize the whole I was born with it shit. If guys like litvish want to believe they have as fulfilling a relationship with another guy as heteros, go believe it. But I don't buy it, and I am clear that the Torah perspective is that faygotitis is behavioral. It is forbidden, and I am a 613 jew, nothing less.

Look, I don't bust Rebitzman's balls for driving on shabbos or whatever it is that defines him as conservative, but I presume as a conservative jew he's doing something "unorthodox" just like litvish. But the difference is Rebitman is not contributing the breakdown of the family unit. If every one got smitten with gayds, there would be no one left.

Your whole comment about whgy I don't bank yenem's wife was stupid. I want cheeseburgers, I want lobster and I want treif steak. BADLY. I don't eat that stuff because the Torah says don't. How many more Ranger and Yankee will I have to miss on Friday nights? So whatever you say about whatever stereotype you think you can apply to me and motives, you're wrong.

Bottom line, I don't want you laughing at anything I write and don't want you to enjoy anything I post. If you can be disgusted and continue to think that I'm a racist frummock and that all frummocks are racist, that would be best because the last think I want to do is convince you otherwise, I'm too tired and your too old for that.

And if this blog is now Faggots Anonymous and has become a support group for wayward otherwise orthodox gays that pick and choose what parts of the Torah they adhere to and need a shoulder to cry on while they delude themselves into thinking they are living a Torah true lifestyle every time they shtup their "partner" I did not get the memo.

Joe Field

I used the word compassion because I meant to use it.
Consider the word itself.
Com+ passion. Com ( like Spanish con= with). Passion = feeling.
For me it is consciously putting yourself in the other person's shoes and feeling how they feel; walking with them in sympathy and empathy.
Posted by: Litvish | December 02, 2011 at 05:48 AM

I hear you and admire your tenacity, my point was that if a straight couple does not need or get compassion, with the same understanding a gay couple doesn’t need anyone compassion either. Gay people are part of the human civilization. In the moment, someone is looking for compassion, in a way he is falling into BIF’s narrow-minded trap.

Whatsa matta you

Lispvish, if Steve "gay aveck" Greenberg got a "heter" to commit abominations, why doesn't he go around saying it?

Litvish

I used the word compassion because I meant to use it.

Consider the word itself.

Com+ passion. Com ( like Spanish con= with). Passion = feeling.

For me it is consciously putting yourself in the other person's shoes and feeling how they feel; walking with them in sympathy and empathy.
====

I am not shocked that the puerile and vulgar anti-gay comments on this thread do not mention lesbians. Straight men often delight in lesbian pornography or fantasies; it turns them on. Women are sex objects for many of them; not human beings like them. However, for two men to show affection ( which is my sense of what it means to be a gay man) is threatening to them.

Gay doesn't necessary involve sex in my book. It can just as being straight but doesn't need to involve it. Your parents may love each other intensely but do not need to sexually express it.

If you think that gay = having sex with someone then you might reconsider that. I know many gay couples and I can assure you that few of them are regularly having sex according to our conversations.
====

I appreciate the positive comments here because at the end of the day I and your other gay and lesbian neighbors and friends will continue on for another day. Long after you have forgotten what was written here we will be living our lives alongside you. We go through the same crisis, same struggles, same ups and downs. Our lives are really more similar to yours than not. I would like to concentrate on what we have in common and our common goals of living happy, healthy, fulfilling lives rather than the ignorance and rancor which is displayed on this page.

We can all learn more about ourselves and others. It is to that end that I also write.

Jeff

Litvish, I just saw your comments about Rav Lesser. Thanks so much for telling us about him. He was obviously a rare man. What happened to him is tragic.

There's a parallel in the evangelical world. At around the same time - late 70's, early 80's - the conservatives took over and forced the moderates out of key positions in their seminaries and denominational organizations. They've been attempting to commandeer society (and largely succeeding, especially in the political arena) ever since. The Haredim, of course, are too few to have that kind of effect, and the goyishe velt is irrelevant to them, in any case.

Unfortunately, the prognosis for change in either world is bleak.

Jeff

There is no "gay" gene. Homosexuality is a result of traumatic conditioning in childhood, usually between the ages of 3 1/2 to 8 (often repressed) and poor later life choices. People will rationalise their actions no matter what. They hate the truth and will carry their denials to their death beds.

Posted by: Adam Neira | December 01, 2011 at 10:11 PM

And, once again, you demonstrate that you're mentally ill and don't know what you're talking about. You belong in a psychiatric facility. I'm sick to death of reading your posts, which are off-kilter at best, insane at worst and which make sense to no one but yourself.

When God appoints you Messiah (which I know you expect immanently), you can reorder society to suit yourself. Until then, shut up. No one is interested.

Abracadabra

APC & Adams - Thanks.

Abracadabra

Adams - I don't know if there are any statistics, but if you do your own survey of frum therapists and rabanim you will find that the vast majority of marriages of frum gay people who forced themselves to believe they could make it work, ended in divorce. (And greater than the divorce rate of the general population.) It's a sad but true thing. And the "korbanos" of trying to make something work that can't work, are the children. And more frum people choose this route because the alternatives are horrific - being ostracized or being kicked out of one's community and family.

And regarding bi people - how many are there already? Not too many. And for those bi people who are frum and want to stay frum, the choice is obvious.

Abracadabra

Fartscroll - This being a blog does not make it not the real world. I'm not sure why you fool yourself into thinking that cyberspace doesn't matter. When you speak to a friend on your smartphone, does the conversation not matter because it is going on in "cyberspace"? It's the same satellite that carries your message to the web, does it still not matter? When you text your wife or kids, does that not matter because it is "cyberspace"? Or how about if you write your friend an email that says "I hate your ugly house, why did you paint it that disgusting color blue - it makes me want to puke!" - does that not matter because it's cyberspace?

Why does a blog not matter?

Is it because you're Anonymous on this blog? Is that why? So, if you were able to anonymously get on the PA system in Walmart and announce to the whole store "Hey you old, fart in the green skirt - yeah, you, the ugly, old lady with the bent shopping cart at register 4 - why don't you buy a face shaver, it seems like your tweezers can't handle the job anymore!" - would that be okay because you would be anonymous?

No? Why not? You'd be anonymous!

You're deluding yourself if you think nothing matters in cyberspace. Congressmen and Mayors have ruined careers because of what they wrote "in cyberspace". It matters whether you’re a famous congressman or a regular Joe, because it affects other people. What you say matters to people. When you insult them, even though you are anonymous, it matters. And when you say nice things to them, it can make their day and touch their hearts and that matters to them too.

If you need a place where nothing that you say matters - write to yourself, and don't let anyone else see it. Go ahead, I dare you big tough guy - write to yourself and write all those insults and ugly comments to yourself, and see how much “it doesn't matter." Then try writing nice things to yourself - and you'll see that it does, indeed, matter.

Your words have meaning to others and they have power. And you're a half-decent writer. You're even funny sometimes and make good jokes. (And your screen name makes me chuckle every time I see it!) It would be great if you could use that to help people, or at the very least, don't use your gifts to hurt people. Your words matter to people - on a blog, in cyberspace, in Walmart, everywhere.

Whatsa matta you

Lispvish, who is the true dredge of society? A "frumik" who abhors abomination or Bully Lesser who steals diamonds and
beeper signals off off satellites? You can go down to the pen on visiting day and compare Sodomite notes with each other about prison activities in & out of prison

Whatsa matta you

Lispvish is trying to wax philosophical. He sounds like Andrew Sullivan when he penned a false prophesy about "generations & generations of gays". A Wall St Journal editorial burst out laughing in response that gays do not produce generations. The WSJ has always been owned by rather articulate WASPs. So why don't you shove your hatred of "frumiks" in the same place everything else gets shtupped.

Abracadabra

Please understand that the word compassion delineates a person who might have an illness or an unfortunate accident, we understand that being gay is part of nature, regardless what the Torah and religions, depict gay people.

Joe Field - I agree with you, and I apologize if I implied in any way that someone gay might have "an illness or an unfortunate accident". That is NOT what I meant.

Please realize that I was directing my words specifically to someone who seemed somewhat intelligent, and yet espoused vitriolic and hateful verbiage for no reason other than his fear of "the other". My hope in appealing for his compassion, was that I could appeal to a side of his character that may be include a hint of compassion for another human being. But apparently, either that side of him doesn't exist, or his hatered blinds him.

Either way, my intent was NOT AT ALL to imply that being gay is the result of illness or unfortunate accident. And I do agree that it is a part of nature. My apologies if I wasn't clear in my original post.

Adam Neira

There is no "gay" gene. Homosexuality is a result of traumatic conditioning in childhood, usually between the ages of 3 1/2 to 8 (often repressed) and poor later life choices. People will rationalise their actions no matter what. They hate the truth and will carry their denials to their death beds.

Rebitzman

though, curiously, not lesbians

Surely this not REALLY shock you.

adams

Abracadabra, nice one, I would only say that there are bi people who can make the choice one way or the other.

There are people with strong gay urges who made the decision to marry a woman and live that way, even though their urges do not leave. They may fantasize and look at gay porn and have urges and steps tohave gay experience. but they did choose one way not the other, and some of them do go back to gay partner.

I would say there is a choice in a tiny minority of people, perhaps more pronounced in the frum world because of the lack of acceptance of a gay couple or experience.

Rochel

Rochel: Does the sperm bank charge outrageous ATM fees?

Posted by: Yochanan Lavie | December 01, 2011 at 01:30 PM

Lol. Yes, I hear that they, in fact, do!

Joe Field

…..and others who show compassion and support for what I have written:…
Posted by: Litvish | December 01, 2011 at 07:52 PM

Please understand that the word compassion delineates a person who might have an illness or an unfortunate accident, we understand that being gay is part of nature, regardless what the Torah and religions, depict gay people. There will be in the not so long distance that gay marriage would be acceptable in all States.

Litvish

Thanks, rebitzman.

With every passing year I see more and more progress for gays and lesbians in the world at large( though still pretty dismal outside of Europe, Israel and the US) and in the Jewish community.

At some point in the future this no longer will be an issue just like being black or a woman is no longer a major issue like it used to be. We now have a black president. Someday we will have women and gay presidents.

The stupidity, crude and vulgar comments against gays ( though, curiously, not lesbians) on this page are remarkable in that they are counterbalanced by well written, supportive and positive ones supporting the rights and happiness of all people including gays and lesbians.

It is obvious to any reader that those writing the ant-gay comments are the uneducated, desperate, dredges of society. The fact that they are frumiks just confirms this.

Long before any religion existed, gays and lesbians were here. Long after gay-bashing, hateful religion is relegated to the footnotes of history we shall still be here.

That will be our final revenge on those short-sighted, ignorant creatures who, as history will record, got it all wrong, especially when it came to being mentshen.

rebitzman

@Jeff

Yet they keep telling us Torah study improves one's reasoning skills.

It does.

@Bfeirush in Fartscrol

Pederasty is sex between a man and a boy

I know - and I think it's an accurate translation. But if it is not, my point is actually better made by the words that follow.

then explain to me how the F**K does chabad support Rubashkin like he's Jesus Reincarnated.

I'm not Chabad - I haven't the slightest idea. In discussions with them they often jerk parts of Sanhedrin out of context to make their case. A single line from a discussion as to who the messiah of a given generation was - and a phrase "if he has already come". In context, it clearly references the Midrashic idea of every generation the Messiah comes, then dies if the world is not ready for him - then the next generation gets THEIR chance with their own "entry".

I paraphrase a bit, but..........

@Litvish

Before going back to school to get a couple of advanced degrees that made me employable, I studied Theater as an undergrad. The rat pack I ran with were people with whom I bonded based on mutual respect, mutual dreams and mutual values. THEY just happened to be gay - I am not.

There were six of them - and over the 20 years after graduation I lost them all to HIV/Aids. I swore to them all that understanding and education would be a cause, and I have long held that "religious" people who think Torah out and out condemns homosexuality - have no idea what homosexuality really is.

You are correct - you are not alone.

Whatsa matta you

How convenient that Lispvish waited until R' Dov Lesser died when no one can ask him. I don't believe it even considering his son Zvulon the "Bully" is a career criminal who might want some queer action in prison.

Litvish

abracadabra, rochel, rebitzman, jeff, shmarya, ruthie,barry, seymour, devorah,simon, yochanan lavie, Fleishike Kishke, adams, adam neira, Joe Field and others who show compassion and support for what I have written:

Thanks for your many wonderful words of support!!

What you have written warms my heart and helps me to know that I am not alone.

Bfeirush in Fartscroll

Uh, yah, whoever suggested that two queers can fulfill pru u'rvu through adoption is delusional.

Bfeirush in Fartscroll

Rebitzman, look at the next mishna, what the mishna says about the BEST of the shoichets - who they are partners with, and then explain to me how the F**K does chabad support Rubashkin like he's Jesus Reincarnated.

Bfeirush in Fartscroll

Rebitzman, your translation of mishkav zochor as pederasty is incorrect. Pederasty is sex between a man and a boy. Mishkav zochor does not imply anything other than two men having sex, not that one is a boy and one is a man. That's exactly what the mishna says, that two unmarried men (bold underline the preceding two words) may not sleep under the same blanket. Pederasty is simply not the correct taitch. (thumb swinging upward...)

Jeff

So........."I'm unhappy with my life so I'll join the most vilified group on the earth......"?

Yet they keep telling us Torah study improves one's reasoning skills.

rebitzman

@Betzalel


So........."I'm unhappy with my life so I'll join the most vilified group on the earth......"?

Perhaps if he'd taken a science class or three along with Talmud/Torah he wouldn't make such stupid statements.

Betzalel

A rabbi in Jerusalem told me that people develop same sex attraction because they're not happy with their lives. And because of this, they rebel against what they perceive to be the source of their unhappiness, Hashem. Their rebellion takes the form of the desire of homosexual actions.

rebitzman

@Bfeirush in Fartscroll

Kiddushin 82A ends "Israel is suspected of neither pederasty or bestiality.", which is why the ruling by the sages is that 2 men sleeping under the same cloak is allowed.

Again - the concept of homosexuality (pederasty is a separate issue) isn't even considered.

Bfeirush in Fartscroll

Abra, who the hell are you to tell me where to spend my compassion? Not sure about the view up on your high horse, but this is a b-l-o-g. It ain't the real world. It's c-y-b-e-r-s-p-a-c-e. So if I find it entertaining, and you don't like it, I could care less. There's a lot worse entertainment out there than failed messiah. Perhaps in the world I am sympathetic to those smitten with the gay virus, maybe I'm not, but as far as I'm concerned, a) you'll never know, and more importantly, b) the only one I will respect and listen to as far as my comments are concerned is Shmarya Rosenberg, because this is his field and therefore I play by his house rules. I'll get to the rest of your bullshit later, for now suffice to say you can take your attitude and your advice and shove them both up that tiny dark little hole that the faygots find so attractive.

As I said, I'll get to the rest of your bullshit later but you have inspired me on one level, as I will be adding the bracha shelo osani faggot to my morning repertoire.

Dave

I think there are some posters on here who are physicians. Correct me if I am wrong, but isn't it true that any kind of anal sex is medically contra-indicated? I would appreciate to have the advise of a physician.

Yochanan Lavie

Rochel: Does the sperm bank charge outrageous ATM fees?

ah-pee-chorus

Abracadabra -

phenomenal comment!!!!

Rochel

As for the torah obligation to procreate, "peru u'revu", same-gender couples do that too today. Lesbian couples can use a sperm bank, as heterosexual couples and women do. Gay men have several options that they more and more take advantage of such as co-creating and parenting with a lesbian, lesbian couple or single heterosexual woman (IVF is used) or surrogates. Adoption is also an option to build a family for same sex couples of either gender as it is for heterosexual couples.

Abracadabra

Fartscroll, like your namesake you can quote Mishnayos and Gemaras from here to kingdom come, and it matters not. You made very clear in your posts that your first intent is entertainment. If that is the case, then why should anyone take you seriously? You can't have it both ways - either you're kidding around and we will not take you seriously. Or you're serious about what you say.

The stuff you wrote about "faygs" and your use of the term “fag” is disgusting. I don't care if you have Mishnayos to back it up.

The bottom line is, that everyone with a brain can see that Torah is interpreted however the rabbonim want it to be interpreted. It says CLEARLY in the Gemara that someone who doesn't teach their son a trade it is as if he taught him to be a theif. Um, so why is nobody listening to that nowadays? Why are the rabbonim endorsing and encouraging everyone marrying their daughters off to boys who are learning, while shunning college educations for the boys?

Because it doesn't really matter what the Gemara says, that’s why. Because the Rabbonim can decide otherwise, even if they are changing what was done for millennia. When there is a rabbinic will, there is a halachic way, and that is the bottom line.

You have no way of knowing if someone like Litvish, who is living with his boyfriend, is engaged in the kind of sex which is the Torah prohibits, or if he is just cuddling and talking with his boyfriend. And no, it is none of your business, but why expect him to HIDE the fact that his significant other is a man? Why can't he have a boyfriend and you not be involved in what goes on in his bedroom, any more than he is in yours? Why does he get called names like "faygele" and “fag” by you? And why insist that he hide? As was pointed out by someone else – you don’t hide that you are married to a woman. Why should he hide that he is married to a man?

Because it says so in the Gemara? Puleez! That's just an excuse for you to be a bigot and throw around epithets like a little kid in a playground.

And it's really good of you not to sleep with your neighbors' wives. But let’s be honest - you don't sleep with your neighbors’ wives or murder bloggers because that's what it says in the Torah and you are suppressing your urges for God’s sake. You don't do those things because they are not morally acceptable in your society, and #1 you don't want to be socially ostracized, and #2 you want to think of yourself as a morally good person. And those are the things it boils down to.

And the same goes for your having children, and your "peru u'revu" statements and saying that gays don't fulfill their Torah obligations to procreate. What a crock. You have kids because that is what is expected of you in your society, because if you wouldn't, or couldn't, you would be looked at sideways and family, friends, neighbors and the people you daven with would ask you and wonder what the problem is, and you wouldn't fit in with your community. So - Mitzvah Boy - get off the little pedestal you built and be honest with yourself.

Using Gemara and Torah quotes to support your judgments is transparent, especially when you use epithets and then backpedal and say "I'm only kidding" or "this is only entertainment". Gay kids commit suicide because of "entertainment" - because they are bullied and taunted and ostracized by people who say "but I was only kidding". If you were bullied, and taunted and ostracized, you wouldn't think it was such a joke.

Nobody - NOBODY - Jew or non-Jew - even today with places where being gay is accepted - wakes up one day and says "I think I'll be gay". It is way too difficult for most people - having to deal with their families, communities, bosses, coworkers, and the judgment and disappointment is a nightmare. It is difficult for even the most "out and proud" people out there, other than a few celebrities that use it to their advantage, whose numbers do not exceed the fingers on one hand (and who may not be entirely honest about how "accepting" all their family members are of them).

A gay person has a difficult and painful road ahead of them, and a FRUM gay person - twentyfold.

So, stop with your religious posturing. We are all so impressed with how frum you are, not sleeping with your neighbors’ wives, and producing offspring, all because the Torah mandated it.

Show some compassion for people who have a challenge that you can be grateful that you didn't have to deal with. And if for no other reason, show compassion because it could be your own child or grandchild who will have to deal with this one day.

Der Nister

I do not mean to make light of this topic but I have to suppress a chuckle each time I come across the phrase "biblical position."

In any event, can someone explain why people who allegedly run afoul of this "command" and who hurt no onse, are the targets of so much ire and attention while the people who knowingly and openly violate the mitzvot "Bein Ad L'Chaveiro" and hurt many are not ostracized and often welcomed and honored by religious? institutions and their so-called leaders.

Yochanan Lavie

"He always told me that we only answer to hashem and not to the bearded wonders.
The Torah is not in heaven, it says in the Gemara."

Actually, it says that in the torah itself: "Lo b'shamayim hee."

The beardie weirdies are not in heaven, either. They are an earthly phenomenon; a product of their cultural matrix. They are all about power, not kedusha.

Here on earth, it is up to us to interpret the torah in a humane manner, so we can live with it. That's what Litvish's wise rebbe did.

Abracadabra

Litvish, thank you so much for your posts and everything you wrote. The Dov Lessers in the world get trampled, and don't have a chance against the very mean and bullying ESTABLISHMENTS usually run by ruthless, power hungry people who don't care whose lives they are ruining or whether they are representing Torah or their own misguided agendas. I am happy for you that you had Rabbi Lesser in your life and that you found happiness in your world. Thank you for all that you have shared.

Joe Field

Posted by: Bfeirush in Fartscroll | December 01, 2011 at 12:15 AM

Not that I agree with your views, I totally disagree with every fiber in my body, but I was able to read and enjoy what you wrote, because you did not use your pornography-laced wisecracks. This goes to show that you have the ability to tame your wild side.

taylor

He always told me that we only answer to hashem and not to the bearded wonders.
The Torah is not in heaven, it says in the Gemara.

Bfeirush in Fartscroll

Rebitzman, your 532 above somehow misquoted me so I don't believe the edit you suggested is relevant.

Kiddushin 82a is a mishna.

The original gemara in nedarim refers to mishkav zochor as well, I'll try to post some meforshim.

Rebitzman

Actually both/either, see Kiddushin 82a.

Given that it's in the context of animals, I think you're making a leap. Will break down Kiddushin once the coffee kicks in.

Again, thanks.

Litvish

Thanks to all who have been supportive in this discussion.

Stevee, he was kicked out of the yeshivo because he fell into disfavor with the people who took over in the 1990's. They abhorred his tolerant views on race, women, education, and other things.

Most of all they hated the fact that he had attended Harvard University and graduated at the top of his class.

They despised his creative mind, a mind that enabled him to find depth in learning that none of them came close to.

Dov was a musarnik in the best tradition. He daily made a cheshbon hanefesh and worked very hard to improve his character traits.

There are few like him around especially in the frum community today.

Just looking at the many ignorant comments on this page you will find plenty of evidence of this.

A E ANDERSON | Admirals Club, Terminal Four, LAX

A male homosexual who engages in homosexual sex is merely an sinner, an avaryan. If he were to claim "laying with a man as with a woman" is permissible, he would at most be a mumar le-davar echad. Now, if Kamenetsky were consistent in his position, he would actively seek out and ban all sinners, especially those who drive to shul and quietly park nearby, for hillul Shabbat is as great or greater a transgression than anal sex between two males (which is the specific halakhic prohibition).


No, I think Kamenetsky and other haredis just have a hang up on sex and can't get it out of their minds. It it hard to escape noticing how only sex-related issues (tsnius, etc.) get these guys riled up and issuing fatwas. The other 500 or so non-sex related mitzvot just don't command their infatuation so.

Bfeirush in Fartscroll

"Before religion came along no one would have known that sex is dirty, that the yetzer horo is involved, that we need to be ashamed of our bodies. This is described in Genesis and, in my opinion, is very sad."

I'm not sure what religion this refers to but it's not Torah-true Judaism.

These are all common misconceptions, none with basis in reality, much like saying "all blacks drink grape soda and barbecue potato chips for breakfast," (only the inner city blacks do) or "all latinos carry knives." (only the latinos from Puerto Rico do.)

Seriously though, the Torah view on sex, as articulated most clearly in recent years by Rabbi Boteach, is not that sex is dirty. And the yetzer hara comes into play only because we have the great gift of free will, so naturally I will be inclined to desire that which is forbidden. It's actually the oldest story in the bible (the old one, not the fake new one). Adam and Chava weren't ashamed of their bodies as this poster states, as Rashi clearly states even a blind man knows he's naked. So what was it that they realized?

Prior to their aveira, Adam and Chava knew good from bad, right from wrong, but they had not internalized a yetzer harah. So they could choose to do right and wrong, and were held responsible for their choices, but the urge to do evil did not come from within. Indeed, it came from the snake - an external source. Since the yetzer harah did not reside from within, their nakedness was innocent and in no way sinful. They saw no difference between a hand, whose purpose was to give charity and to do good deeds and the parts of the body which are used to "be fruitful and multiply." One was no different than the other. With every organ they could fulfill the will of G‑d or vice versa, so no organ was shameful, nor did anything need to be covered.

Once they ate from the eitz, the yetzer harah became a an integral part of their psyche, from within. Lust – a passion which is much stronger than the desire to do mitzvos, a passion which is much more encompassing and has the potential to be seriously misused – became a part of them as well. So to suggest that they were ashamed is just too simple an understanding of the posuk.

I'm sorry, litvish, but on this point you were misguided and you are incorrect. Judaism views sex between husband and wife as a sanctified act, and as the laws of niddah demonstrate, the marital union when respected, is like no other and nothing you have experienced and apparently never will.

Proof of this is in the mitzva you have chosen to shun, pru u'rvu, which elevates sex to a mitzva - and every mitzva is a holy endeavor.

Breishis 2, 18, "it is not good for man to be alone" Judaism views marriage as the essential means of companionship, intimacy and love. Just as God created Adam and Chava from one body, the act of marriage returns us to the very same oneness Adam and Chava understood.

Judaism values sex as a means of strengthening vitally important marital bond. It is neither dirty or evil, and any suggestion to the contrary is misinformation or ignorance.

Bfeirush in Fartscroll

"And it's Nedarim 51a - I read it as disgrace or confused, and sure seems to be talking about bestiality, not homosexuality."

Actually both/either, see Kiddushin 82a.

Stevee

"They kicked him out of the yeshivo"

Did he tell you why?

This is one of those that you want to know "the rest of the story"

evf

Even IF people are born homo, it dosent make it not a Toeivah . If someone is born sick , like with a mental illness or cancer do we accept it or do we try to heal them. So to with homosexuality its a pervesion and we need to help people to be well. If people are born this way it could be - maybe - that in a previous gilgul they perverted themselves and know they have to rectify it. It is also brought down that in the Dor before Mashiach the erev rav and amalek will also come back as gilgulim. These are just my ideas if people are born this way, but I'm not fully convinced .

Bfeirush in Fartscroll

You know, corn popper, much like faygelech, I find that vulgarity has its place and use, so try not to be so friggin judgmental, ok?

Joe Field

His very last words to me, shortly before he died, were, Life is short. It is so precious; do what makes you happy.
Then he hugged me.
I never saw him again.
Posted by: Litvish | November 30, 2011 at

What a heartwarming story.


P.S. I just saw this clip.
http://www.facebook.com/profile.php?id=1549719381

corn popper

Bfeirush, as foul mouthed as you are, these are great posts. Maybe YOU should write the declaration for Rabbi Kamenetsky to sign.

Litvish

Yes, Rov Lesser helped me in more ways than either of us realized at the time.

I was drowning and he saved my life.

He helped me to believe in the decency of human beings and also to see that there are essentially holy and good people in all communities.

His very last words to me, shortly before he died, were, Life is short. It is so precious; do what makes you happy.

Then he hugged me.

I never saw him again.

Rochel

Litvish, you are lucky that you had such a wise man (Rov Lesser) in your life.

Adam Neira

"If you don't stand for something you will fall for anything."

- Roy Rogers


Chaim3125

Litvish - and b'feirush - great, great posts...

Litvish

The rabbi that you mentioned, Rov Dov Lesser, must have understood this to be true. What would he have said about this?

Posted by: Betzalel
====
I live in the real world, too.

Many people think that Jews are greedy and evil people; I have met some of them.

Some might call that the real world but I would say that I am a Jew and I try to be a good person in whatever way I can.

As far as what Rov Lesser would have said, he is not here to answer your question but I can tell you what he told me.

He asked, Do you love your partner? Does he love you? Are you happy together?

These were his major concerns. You see, Rov Lesser was a major talmid of Rov Kotler who started the Beys medrash gavoha in Lakewood. He loved R. Kotler who was a true godol b'Torah. He told me many stories about how sweet and generous R. Kotler was to all people, Jew and non-Jew, how he really loved others and went out of his way to support all of them regardless of their background. He never judged people.

After R. Kotler died, R. Lesser taught in the yeshivo for many years. Finally, the right-wing rabbis took control. He called them the Jewish Taliban.

They kicked him out of the yeshivo. He no longer was permitted to give his shiur. His former talmidim were even afraid to give him Shalom. I saw them cross the street to avoid him. This was on shabbos when I was there with him.

Every week he would give a shiur in his home. Two people attended: his brother in law and a son. He spent most of the week preparing the shiur.

He was my rebbe and was the one who urged me to be true to myself as a Jew, a gay man, and a human being.

He died at age 61 feeling rejected by the community he loved but which no longer loved him.

He always told me that we only answer to hashem and not to the bearded wonders.

Yes, he made a difference in his thinking between same-sex attraction and sodomy. That he told me several times.

We make our own real world.

Don't let anyone tell you differently.

Don't let them intimidate you into denying who you really are.

As I learned from my rebbe, life is too short to deny who you are.

rebitzman

@Bfeirush in Fartscroll

The gemara in Sanhedrin, at least one opinion, states that Cham's sin was not that he castrated his father, but that he had anal with him

Yes it does - but it describes an act of rape - which you will agree is not sex.

And it's Nedarim 51a - I read it as disgrace or confused, and sure seems to be talking about bestiality, not homosexuality.


Good post.

seymour

@WrongAgainJew- you've quoted that bogus site previously. Do you even bother to think??? There were 10s of 1000s of homosexuals slaughtered by the Nazis because of their sexual orientation.

Posted by: SkepticalYid | November 30, 2011 at 08:16 PM

and remember Himmler also thought homosexual can be cured.

but even he said there where a very small percentage that are true homosexual

Betzalel

Litvish,

I can understand from your definition of both male homosexuality and sodomy that they are two different things theoretically speaking, but in the real world, aren't they the same thing?

The rabbi that you mentioned, Rov Dov Lesser, must have understood this to be true. What would he have said about this?

SkepticalYid

@WrongAgainJew- you've quoted that bogus site previously. Do you even bother to think??? There were 10s of 1000s of homosexuals slaughtered by the Nazis because of their sexual orientation.

Shmarya

Posted by: RightJew | November 30, 2011 at 07:29 PM

You really need to get out more. Citing extremely biased hate books rejected by 99.9% of historians is not helping your argument.

Litvish

What is the difference between sodomy and homosexuality?

Posted by: Betzalel
====
Good question, Betzalel.

Sodomy is anal intercourse. It can be done by two men or a man and a woman. It is not necessary to have homosexual feelings to do it. Most sodomy is done my heterosexuals since there are a lot more of them than homosexuals and in most sex surveys this is indicated. I doubt whether any of them would identify as homosexual.Also, in all male environments many heterosexual men have this type of sex. They are not at all gay. They are fulfilling biological urges that have no intimate feelings attached in most cases,I believe.

Homosexuality is same sex attraction. For example, Jonathan and David in Torah where their attraction to each other was greater than the attraction of either one to a woman, as we are told.

Same sex attraction does not equal sex. It is unfortunate that the term homosexuality is used, I believe, since it implies sex. Most same sex attraction does not involve sex in my experience both personal and in counseling people over the last twenty years.

I used to have a lot of sex when I was in my twenties and thirties but now find cuddling, kissing and just holding hands much more satisfying. I love to sit and talk with my partner. We do everything together. It is a much more satisfying and balanced relationship than I had when my relationships were more physical.

I suspect that most couples, straight or gay, are not principally sex-oriented if they have a very intimate, loving relationship.

There is so much misunderstanding around this subject. Much of it stems from the simple fact that we live in a sex-negative society where sex is equated with simple biological urges and is often labeled dirty. For this we have the priests and rabbis to blame in large part. Most Western religion condemns and severely limits sex since it is such a primal urge. In addition, few religious people have much understanding of sex as is obvious from some of the posts on this blog.

Before religion came along no one would have known that sex is dirty, that the yetzer horo is involved, that we need to be ashamed of our bodies. This is described in Genesis and, in my opinion, is very sad.

Hope that helps.

adams

many hetero men have a fear of gays. In Many communities they sit and judge others as the day is long. So this is the same concept, sit and judge others. Who cares what 2 adults so n bed or not. I mean, why does it matter a dam to anyone else?

what benefit does it bring to make such judgements? There is no moral law that is being broken

Bfeirush in Fartscroll

What is the difference between sodomy and homosexuality?

A staff infection in the weewee.

Seriously though, back in the day the two were probably synonymous but today you can't equate a guy running around with mascara and wearing an argyle sweater commenting about how pretty the flowers are while he prances down Broadway with two dudes heading north up the Hershey Highway. The're just not the same.

RightJew


Hellenism=Homosexualism=Paganism=Nazism

"... the Nazi Party was conceived, organized and controlled throughout its short history by masculine-oriented male homosexuals...In fact, the party grew out of a number of groups in Germany which were centers of homosexual activity and activism. Many of the characteristic rituals, symbols, activities and philosophies we associate with Nazism came from these organizations or from contemporary homosexuals. The extended-arm “Sieg Heil” salute, for example, was a ritual of the Wandervoegel (“Wandering Birds” or “Rovers”), a male youth society which became the German equivalent of the Boy Scouts. The Wandervoegel was started in the late 1800s by a group of homosexual teenagers. "

" ... not ten percent of the men who, in 1933, took the fate of Germany into their hands, were sexually normal..."

"Captain Ernst Roehm...A homosexual with a taste for boys...At the door of the Bratwurstgloeckl, a tavern frequented by homosexual roughnecks and bully-boys, (Captain Ernst) Roehm turned in and joined the handful of sexual deviants and occultists who were celebrating the success of a new campaign of terror. Their organization, once known as the German Worker’s Party, was now called the Nationalsozialistische Deutsche Arbeiterpartei, The National Socialist German Worker’s Party — the Nazis."

"... Male homosexuality, especially between men and boys, was considered a virtue in Hellenic (Greek) society ... In ancient Greece, as in the masculine homosexual faction in Germany, only the masculine form of homosexuality was esteemed and all things feminine were despised. The form of homosexuality which dominated Greek culture was ultramasculine and militaristic ... As we will see, the revival of Hellenic paganism became a fundamental aspect of the Nazi identity. In Nationalism and Sexuality, historian George L. Mosse notes its significance: “The Greek youth, an important national symbol in the past, reigned supreme during the Third Reich."

"The SA Brownshirts or Stuermabteilung (“Storm Troopers”) were largely the creation of another homosexual, Gerhard Rossbach (Waite, 1969:209)..."

http://www.thepinkswastika.com/

Joe Field

Litvish,
What is the difference between sodomy and homosexuality?
Posted by: Betzalel | November 30, 2011 at 06:55 PM

Anal sex, v. blow job.

Betzalel

Litvish,

What is the difference between sodomy and homosexuality?

Joe Field

And yes, it is partialy because of these people that so many women on the Upper West Side cannot find men to marry and end up alone living with cats and dogs in their bed. If more homosexuals were forced back into the closet, more of the women of the upper west side would be happy and living in Riverdale building heimishe lives for their kids and helping their husband to learn.
Posted by: Waiting4Moshiach | November 30, 2011 at 07:23 AM

What gives, a few days back you proclaimed that the Upper Westside woman sleep with their cats a dogs purposely, now you claim that they are forced because they cannot find any man. Moreover, are you into bestiality too?

Bfeirush in Fartscroll

Fleishig, only a sterling silver stake will work, I am imperveious to any other. And it has to be before daylight.

Turd, your post is the first ever that made me laugh out loud on this blog. My hat is tipped to you sir, that is hysterical.

Hal

Could you all shut up about the age of the universe? What difference does that make in your life? Who cares.

Bfeirush in Fartscroll

Rebitzman,

I think that ultimately what I'm saying (and again, keep in that for me blogging is 95% entertainment and if I have a choice of making a sound point or stirring the proverbial cholent the latter will prevail, and by any means possible) I would like to see the view on homosexuality become very simple: Hate the sin, love the sinner. And even more so, hate all sin, with no distinction between sodomy and any other sin as set forth by the Torah.

I don't believe anywhere in the Torah there is a source for hatred, but for the Amelikites, and every now and then, a Red Sox fan.

Vayikra 19, 18 doesn't say, "but thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself, except fags." So this admonition means that we need to love gays, criminals and as difficult as it sounds have compassion even for sinners like the man who killed Leiby Kletsky. I'm not comparing him to anyone but my point is clear - the possuk does not exclude anyone.

As for you comment "Neither does the talmud..." address homosexuality, that is not entirely accurate.

First off, regardless of what science says, the Torah view on homosexuality is that it is behavioral and absolutely not inborn. The genrations of Noach, Sdom, and Mitzrayim all openly practiced homosexuality and we are admonished not to follow those ways.

Additionally, there can be no doubt that there is a clear delineation between the desire to commit a sin, and an act (or failure to perform an act) which the Torah defines as a sin. But the Torah repeats many times (Bamidbar 15, 39, as one source) not to follow or act on such desires.

Prenthetically I would note that on a very basic level if we as a religion espoused the hatred of gays because sodomy is "toeivah," we would never have a minyan in any shul because we are all sinners. Koheles says it best, see 7, 20).

Having mentioned toeivah, taking idols, eating non-kosher food, trying to go about contacting the dead, these are all toeivah. The common thread among all sins the Torah defines as toeivah are that they are based in pagan custom or action and and the values of that society are antithetical to Judaism.

I do believe the medrash says that Paroah brought Yoseph into the palance with the intent of having sex with him, by the way.

In any event, the gemara in Nedarim 51 (a or b ;-) states that the word Toeiva is an acronym for Toeh ata bah - you are straying with this act (the act of abandoning sex with a woman in favor of another man.) Which means that by abandoning heterosexual life a person is straying from one of his primary goals, to create a family (pru urvu, in essence.) This prime directive and purpose of man is what is the underlying issue, and not necessarilly the "dirtiness" or "abhorrence" of the act itself. It's not that a homosexual relationship is unholy per se, buut it is an abandonment of a man's purpose in this World.

Listen, I'm married, and I've definitely desired other men's wives. I think that's natural. But last time I watched Letterman, number 7 of the Top Ten was don't have sex with a married woman. So I don't act on the desire not because it's not in my nature, it is in my nature, but the Torah has told me not to, so I don't. (I will steal a peak through the mechitzah every now and then. Shoot me.)

The gemara in Sanhedrin, at least one opinion, states that Cham's sin was not that he castrated his father, but that he had anal with him. Anothr talmudic reference there although I don't believe there was much more to that reference that I can recall. I just tried looking it up and can't find the page. It's in perek vov somewhere, I think.

Anywho...back to work.

Fleishike Kishke

Sorry to use the analogy, but the overwhelming majority of frum Jews would be Nazis, Nazi collaborators, and Nazi sympathizers, or at best “decent” people who would do nothing, if anyone ever came after homosexuals the way the Nazis came after Jews.

Allah, Jehovah, Baal, Vishnu, protect your gay children from Fartscroll. Have one of his children or grandchildren come out of the closet. Drive a stake through his heart, made cold by Torah, in his declining years.

Yochanan: You are one of the Righteous. We'll honor you as a religious Jew who isn't utterly evil (to paraphrase the Tanya).

Turd Degree

As regards homosexuality, the biblical position and the secular position are irreconcilable

I think a reasonable compromise would be the missionary position.

Bfeirush in Fartscroll

Atoz, I never said I raised 2 sons, I have more than 2 that I know, and there may be even more. Of course I can't speak knowledgeably about the children I've fathered that I am unaware of.

Reminds me of a funny story, years ago I was walking with my brother and son in the City and we passed by Victoria's Secret, and as we keep walking my brother and I realize that my son is now still on the other side of the avenue behind us just oogling this stunner in the VS window. My brother turns to me and says, "Well, at least we know he ain't no fag." I was actually pissed at the time because we were late for a Ranger game and I hate missing the National Anthem, you know, just one of those quirks a person has. But as I was about to yell at him I just laughed and let him catch up.

rebitzman

@Litvish

He told me that the Torah does not condemn homosexuality.

I'll go you one further - it never directly addresses it. Neither does the Talmud.

Wise man, your rabbi.


@Bfeirush in Fartscroll

Harrison, I've been trying, but it's not that easy.

You are a lot braver than I am, dude!

Bfeirush in Fartscroll

Harrison, I've been trying, but it's not that easy.

rebitzman

So I would hope everyone in klal yisroel accepts that people have these inclinations, and accepts the people that have them. Its just impossible to avoid some sort of problematic halachic issue living that lifestyle.

Change "these people" to "all people", and put a period after the word "living", and you have a much better post.

That said - you were trying to stay on point and I get what you're saying.

rebitzman

To Rabbi Kamenetzky:

Thank you for the recruitment poster.
____________________________________

To all GAL's:

Masoriti Judaism accepts you as you are. No questions asked - no judgements made - no immunization records required.

Rochel

Just saw this:

https://www.facebook.com/photo.php?fbid=318792774816849&set=a.223098324386295.105971.205344452828349&type=1&theater

:)

Jeff

Posted by: RightJew | November 30, 2011 at 12:45 PM

As per usual, everything you say is factually incorrect, and merely an excuse for you to express your insane, frothing-at-the-mouth hatred of everyone who disagrees with you, whom you tar with the epithet "liberal" - the dirtiest word you know.

I can't believe someone as stupid and crazy as you are is capable of taking care of himself. You must be typing these gems from a group home.

Rochel

Some of my good friends are gay men and I was friends with them before I, or even they, knew they were gay (going through the dating women phases). I had the honor and pleasure of being at the wedding of one of my friends with his partner. It was lovely and I was thrilled.

One thing I am certain of is that no one chooses to be gay who is not. Why would they? Even in the best of circumstances it is a harder life due to the discrimination they inevitably encounter. So it amazes me that people cannot accept that a person who is gay really feels an attraction to the same sex. And as Litvish (Litvish | November 30, 2011 at 03:35 PM) describes, why begrudge these people this wonderful experience of love and partnership/companionship?

Harrison Bergeron

Befirush wrote "I don't run around telling everyone what I did to my wife last night,"

But you also don't hide the fact that you have wife.

Litvish

Various rabbonim poskin differently on sodomy. I know at least one man who received a heter from a famous posek in Israel for anal intercourse with his male partner. Heterim are very individual.

The general consensus according to R. Lesser, as he told me, is that sodomy is ossor but that other sexual acts between two men are not. I cannot comment on what Anon wrote.

Homosexuality, per se, cannot be prohibited because it is created by hashem and, he told me, the Torah knew this. I am quoting him. The Torah doesn't prohibit nature. It prohibits behavior.

There is now abundant evidence that homosexuality is biological. Genetic, biochemical, neurologic, and other scientific studies are demonstrating what many have known for a long time.

Hashem created homosexuals as an intentional part of his world.

The intimacy I have found with my partner is the most satisfying thing in my life. I never believed that I could experience such a deep sharing with another human being.

I have no hesitation to compare it with any other couple. We have worked hard over 26 years to build this intimacy. Like any relationship it takes work.

It is founded on honesty, mutual love, and the willingness to put our relationship above our personal needs. He is the only person in the world I can tell everything without any fear of being condemned or judged. He accepts me for whom I am, exactly as I am including many things I have difficulty accepting about myself.

When I have been sick he cared for me when no one else would. When I lost everything he was always there for me. I never trusted myself or another human being totally since I had so many disappointments with others. Our mutual trust has taken years to develop and it is rock solid, the product of much common work.

This is our reality and you will not find it in the media or political demonstrations.

Yochanan Lavie

Litvish: I agree with what you wrote, except that Anon is probably correct regarding Hetero buggery. Like Rochel, I thank you for sharing and wish you much hatzlacha.

p

Re homeless shelter volunteers

How wonderful to see an orthodox congregation who is actually concerned about people outside of our "daled amos". Kol ha Kavod to Cong. Agudath Sholom.

Posted by: Gevezener Chusid | November 30, 2011 at 01:45 PM

Rabbi Daniel Cohen is a real doll. This shul, by the way, is the one where Senator Joseph Lieberman davens at.

Rochel

Posted by: Litvish | November 30, 2011 at 01:20 PM
Thanks for sharing!

The comments to this entry are closed.

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