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November 04, 2011

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p

Traffickers typically pay $10,000 to a seller for a kidney and collect $150,000 when selling it to a patient.


I guess this really hurts the haredim since no way can they afford to get one of those organs on the money the govt pays them to sit and learn.

Waiting4Moshiach

Yidden, why so many of these stories lately that make us look bad? One day it is that we are too modest on our buses, the next that we are to blame for Wall street and now this. Who is behind it? Goyim? Mamzayrim in the media who were kicked out of yeshiva? Arabs? Libersal? anyway suppose this story is true. They are getting paid to donate, right? Paid to donate. Not a bad deal. When I give tzedaka, nobody pays me to donate. But we pay the goyim to donate so what are they complaining about?

rebitzman

@Waiting4Moshiach

Who is behind it? Goyim? Mamzayrim in the media who were kicked out of yeshiva? Arabs? Libersal? (sic)

Here's what's odd - or rather not at all odd. As a rule, if you post for any period of time under a given "handle", you start showing up in Internet searches in other places, on other boards. People who "hide" behind a given handle use said handle in multiple places. like ah-pee-chorus, or Korbendallas72, or Yochanan Lavie, or itchiemayer, or .......heck, me for that matter.

Thing is - you appear nowhere but here - on failedmessiah, or on sites linked directly to here - with one exception. A site dedicated to Messianic "Judaism".

So...........are you a troll, or do you follow Yoshke? It's very likely one or the other, so why not come clean? No one is buying that anyone REALLY haredi - no matter how "brain washed" could be as dense as to present yourself to be.

SkepticalYid

@Rebitzman- thanks for pointing that out! I ran a search on some of the more "fringe" posters here and learned that some of them have a habit of posting deranged rants on other websites as well.

Maple Bacon

Posted by: Waiting4Moshiach | November 04, 2011 at 02:03 PM

Who is behind it?? It's other fellow Jews who act like assholes and lack self-accountability. I relish when those "holier than thous" (look and pretend to be religous and better than me) are busted and exposed for the fraud Jews that they are.

Maple Bacon

Posted by: rebitzman | November 04, 2011 at 02:24 PM

I show up a lot in recipes!! :D

Shmuel

But some good news - Israel recently passed a law that puts donor card carriers higher up on the waiting list for receiving, meaning that if you're not willing to be a potential donor you have little chance of being a receiver either.

anuran

No, W4M. These stories aren't here to make people like you look bad. You make yourselves look bad. This is simply ripping away the comforting lies you wrap yourselves in.

David

The prohibition of Charedim donating organs relates to their Bronze Age definition of death which is not in accord with modern science.

Chicago Sam

The Haredim are a public relations nightmare in Israel. Nearly every thing they do is Hillul Hashem on a grand scale.

I think the Israel government should try to send them to any other country outside of Israel--heck, pay them to leave. Send them to wherever--so long as it is not Israel.

Waiting4Moshiach

Since you ask no I am not a follower of yushka pundrik but thank you for pointing out that there is a blog with my name that is. Anyone with half a brain can see we are not the same. Also I do not post to goyishe places on the web like some unless also with a goyishe name. A good Yid also knows not to show that he is a Yid except only with other yidden so you wont see my name on the wall street journal and also so snoops and mosers cant spy so easily. Make yourself a gut yontif and PRAY FOR HASHEM TO SEND US MOSHIACH ALREADY!

Rebitzman

@waitingForMoshiach

You posted your response 32 minutes after candle lighting where you claim to live........

anuran

So Orthodox Jews have goyim and their families killed to supply organs their taboos won't let them provide themselves.

And the great shame of this is that it makes Jews look bad?

Korbendallas72

Shmarya,

Isn't "no sockpuppeting" a rule of FM? Why is W4M allowed to remain and spew his nazi filth?

seymour

these is not a problem for the frum people since other a re not on the same level in human terms as them

it is sort like taking a liver from a animal
so what is the issue

Adam Neira

These stories are terrible on many counts.

(1) A hierarchy of health is being created.

(2) If a more healing structure reigned such transplants would not be necessary.

(3) That so much money changes hands and people have to be permanently scarred by such an operation is shocking.

(4) Any Rabbi or scholar that says it is ok to take a goy body part but not that of a Jew is doing enormous harm to the Jewish people.

(5) The details of these deals are always sordid and under the table and vulnerable people are being preyed upon purely because they need money.

I have commented elsewhere over the years on this issue. It really encapsulates so much that is wrong with the world.

WoolSilkCotton

From the looks of the scar on that picture, if it is indeed someone who underwent the removal of a normal healthy kidney for organ retrieval, the operation was not done by a competent surgeon.

WoolSilkCotton

Adam, the points you make are exactly why the USA makes it illegal.

Stem cell research would eventually make transplants unnecessary, but frumma Christian Republicans are against stem cell research.

Of course, healthier living would make kidney disease less prevalent, but that alone will not eliminate all of it.

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shmaryau.dont kid yourselves.mount sinai isnt the only big hospital those illegal harvesting are being performed.
who doesnt remember the "young mother from somewhere near jerusalem who had her kidney harvested from a live willful donor"??? and vice versa her husband did to someone else.do you think it was done for free?
ask the goons.

Reb Chaim

In contrast to this sordid tale about haredim and organ selling, there was a wonderful lead story in the Jewish Star this week. It described a reception at a local five towns supermarket, Gourmet Glatt, honoring the 126 orthodox Jews who voluntarily donated their kidneys to needy recipients. Their organization, "Renewal" was lauded for the wonderful work they do in fulfilling a desperate need in the Jewish Community. They, like all other such organizations, have an annual budget for which funds are always in short supply. Their website is www.Renewal.org and their phone number is 718-431-9831. In an ironic footnote to this benefit evening, the supermarket had a fire a few days later and will be closed for several months to repair the damage that resulted.

WoolSilkCotton

The fire was probably set by haredim.

A Rabbi

Death, according to Halacha, is the departure of the soul from the body, which takes place when a person's heartbeat has stopped and cannot be restored.

Brain stem "death" has nothing to do with the soul departing from the body. You can't possibly make a scientific or medical argument regarding when the soul leaves the body. Although much more complicated, this is the issue in a nutshell.

Kidney Donor

WSC,

I have to agree with you about the incompetence of the surgeon. I had my surgery done in Columbia Presbyterian and the surgery was done laperscopically and they made a mere two inch cut to remove the kidney. I can't even see the scar...

Thank you Reb Chaim, I was going to say that. Chareidim tend to donate more than non chareidim while they are alive based on all my research. Renewal is the largest Jewish kidney donor organization and 90% of the donors are chareidim according to what its director has told to me. Any harping on the frum as if they are just a bunch of takers is just meaningless hate as evidenced by the existence of 'Renewal'. Because of 'the evil Chareidim' anybody on [the chareidi organization-] Renewal's waiting list waits an average of 9 months for a kidney as opposed to the national average of over 5 years.

WoolSilkCotton

Kidney Donor,
I looked at the Renewal website, and it is indeed an impressive organization. I saw it is a nonprofit, and that is how such an organization should be, so that desperate people do not have to fall into the hands of sleazy brokers.

The harping, at least from me, is aimed at the takers from brain-death donors. The frumma will take from such donors, but will never agree to be such donors when, G-d forbid, such a situation arrises.

I salute what you and other kidney donors have done. May all people suffering from organ failure and awaiting a donor get a refuah shelayma.

Stem cell research is the only possibility we know of that could perhaps someday result in the ability to clone a new replacement organ or body part. I hope government and science will finally see eye-to-eye on this.

Shmarya

Death, according to Halacha, is the departure of the soul from the body, which takes place when a person's heartbeat has stopped and cannot be restored.

Brain stem "death" has nothing to do with the soul departing from the body. You can't possibly make a scientific or medical argument regarding when the soul leaves the body. Although much more complicated, this is the issue in a nutshell.

Posted by: A Rabbi | November 06, 2011 at 09:57 AM

Yes, that's true – but only if you're an idiot who ignorant of the actual halakha, which you appear to be.

You need to go back and learn for a few more years before you call yourself a rabbi.

You're clearly not currently fitting to hold the title.

Kidney Donor

WSC,

I applaud that you've given credit where credit is due. I spoke to a Chareidi activist working on this, and he told me he's trying to make a HODS (Halachic Organ donation society) type of program that will be acceptable to chareidim. It doesn't exist at the moment so few chareidim would donate unless he gets leading gedolim to certify it. Currently there are 3 conditions gedolim told him he needs to establish as guidelines:

1)The heart must cease function,

2)the donor himself must sign (It can't be the family donating, rather the dead person himself must have prestipulated his/her haskamah),

3) the recipient must be available in front of us (i.e. organs can't go to a bank for harvesting...).

It is unfair to blame chareidim (myself included) for not signing up to something that currently the gedolim don't approve of. Living donors organ donation WAS APPROVED BY GEDOLIM, and therefore you see many dozens of chareidim donating. I think eventually progress will be made, but if you have a problem with it, you should take it to the chareidi gedolim and not the chareidi community as a whole.

Kidney Donor

And last but not least, donate to Renewal (I meant financially, but a kidney too if you're up to it!) if you can. In my instance (I donated through Renewal), it went to a non frum guy living in the Bronx, so it is truly a humanitarian organization and not a polarizing cause.

Yankel

Please have respect for Rav Elyashv shlita, even non jews have respect for elders. You may differ in ideas and opinions.

Maple Bacon

Posted by: Yankel | November 06, 2011 at 05:00 PM

And this is coming from someone (you) who is a racist and makes fun of blacks, Asians, converts, non-Jews, etc.?

Piss on you and piss on Elyashiv.

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zidreiters,what will you do if now it will be your turn and your only kidney will go feifen?will you demand your original kidney-back?..after all,the chances are high for your only surviving kidney to get sickened,after all you are haredi.

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maple bacon,a chazer like you with a gemeine mouth and pen like you shame on shmarya to give you space on his blog,you are the scum of the earth.the dung of humanity,how dare you talk like thisabout gdol hador?

ultra haredi lite

Sam,
You sound like a Kahana Chai member only it's politicaly correct since its anti-charedi.

Maple Bacon

Posted by: xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx | November 07, 2011 at 04:09 AM

That's all you can say, you idol worshipper?

Hey, I'm going to plant an organic garden in my backyard, so ya think that if I put a photo of Elyashiv in my garden it'll scare all the bugs and critters away?

Ha! Oink, oink.

Eliyohu

There is nothing I know of in halacha that forbids a (living) jew donating a kidney to another jew. It's done all the time. I would assume the same would hold true for partial liver transplants from living donors. And when it comes to blood and bone marrow transplants... I doubt ANY other people in the world are as quick to come forward as us yidden!
The illicit trade in kidneys is a worldwide phenomenom. People on dialysis are understandably DESPERATE for a chance at a normal life. There are always going to be unsavory people willing to cash in on this desperation.
As I understand it, a shortage of availale organs for transplant is a common phenomenom in much of the world. (I know this certainly the case here in Australia). Partly this is due to the fact that (thank g-d) fewer people nowadays meet a premature death. Remember, for the recipiant to be lucky, someone else has to be unlucky! (I'm talking about those organs which need to come from the dead or dying, obviously).

Shmarya

The illicit trade in kidneys is a worldwide phenomenom. People on dialysis are understandably DESPERATE for a chance at a normal life. There are always going to be unsavory people willing to cash in on this desperation.
As I understand it, a shortage of availale organs for transplant is a common phenomenom in much of the world. (I know this certainly the case here in Australia). Partly this is due to the fact that (thank g-d) fewer people nowadays meet a premature death. Remember, for the recipiant to be lucky, someone else has to be unlucky! (I'm talking about those organs which need to come from the dead or dying, obviously).

Posted by: Eliyohu | November 07, 2011 at 11:48 AM

You 'know' a lot for someone who doesn't know the facts.

Israel has a much greater organ shortage than other Western countries and Israelis have been banned from receiving organs in Western Europe because so few Israelis donate organs.

And perhaps you should reread the article again.

You'll notice the disproportionate number of Israelis buying organs as a result.

Kidney Donor

Shmarya,

You are unaware of the facts. IN ISRAEL there is a severe shortage because of the process there. In the US, the chareidim often donate so there are no major shortages here. It has to do mainly with Israeli law not the people there.

Eliyohu

Shmarya: From the article:
"As long as there’s a worldwide shortage of legal donors for life-saving transplants, the exploitation of the poor will only grow, Kosovo-based prosecutor Ratel says."
No mention in the article of relative rates of Israelies doing such things compared to other countries.
However, I think you may be confusing two things. In terms of "dead" donations, Israelies may indeed have very low rates. But in terms of "live" donations (from living donors), what's the situation? I know of no other nation where living people will often donate a kidney or part of their liver to a total stranger, just because they share a religion. As Kidney Donor says, Israeli systems may make such donations difficult (more info, please?) but this is not from lack of willingness (of the living) to donate.

(Note: Were talking kidneys here. I'm quite aware that one can't take hearts and lungs from living donors, but that's another story. Please focus on the issue at hand).

Shmarya

Posted by: Eliyohu | November 07, 2011 at 05:26 PM

You need to read that article a couple times, slowly, and work really hard to process it.

Past that, Israel has a very low rate of organ donation period – including live donors.

You don't know squat about this issue. Perhaps you should learn before you comment.

Eliyohu

You attack me, but I find precious little to refute me.

I ASKED what israel's live donation rate was - I didn't assume.

Mr Kidney Donor claims that israeli laws and rules make such donations difficult. If that is indeed the case, there is a critical need to change these rules. I know many countries are squeamish about allowing altruistic donations to strangers, for fear of the very abuses described in this article. But in Israel's case, it's a neccesity. Could Mr(s) Donor tell me more on the subject? I am curious.

Why do you assume I "don't know squat", mr know-it-all?

Where do you get your claim on live donor rates, by the way? Not saying you're wrong, but I'd like a source. By the way, outside the jewish world, I'd suspect altruistic live donations to nonrelatives would be extremely rare. Any source to suggest I'm wrong? Any source on comparative rates of this (rare) phemonenom? I wouldn't be surprised if (relatively!) rates amongst us jews are higher by an order of *magnitude*. If I'm wrong, please provide sources.

I DO know that this problem (the kidney trade) is by no means confined to Israel. Do some research. And I am certainly aware of my home country (Australia) having very serious issues with a lack of donations - it's made major media coverage.

The artice does say that "Many of the black-market kidneys harvested by these gangs are destined for people who live in Israel." "Many" doesn't tell me a whole lot.

Anyways, Shmarya, please don't spend too much time bothering with me. Answer Mr(s) donor instead, who obviously DOES know something which perhaps you dont. And perhaps consider donating a kidney yourself, assuming you're in good health?

Kidney Donor

I haven't read it (that Israel's rigorous standards make it hard to donate kidneys in Israel) but the Director of Renewal told me that several times, and I take his word for it, because he facilitates the donation to many Israelis that have to travel to the states to receive a kidney from him (including the fellow mentioned in my following paragraph).

Also, it was mentioned by Dr. Eitan Yefenof, (professor at Hadassah Medical School in Jerusalem, as well as kidney recipient through Renewal) when he spoke at the most recent Renewal event in Five Towns.

Shmarya

Posted by: Eliyohu | November 07, 2011 at 07:26 PM

Besides the sources KD mentions, you can Rabbi Dr. Moshe Tendler.

You can also add the stats that are readily available.

And while we're at it, I've worked on this issue for almost seven years.

Do I know a lot more than you?

Yes I do.

Now go learn.

spacedout BT

Shmarya, there was an ad circulated from a NY based frume mosed that sought volunteer kidney donors l'shem mitzva. I was wondering if those kidneys found a needy recipient or do they get sold for a profit????

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