Live: Women To The Back Of The Bus

The reporters who broke the Brooklyn B-110 segregation story will talk about the forced gender segregation and a deputy mayor of Jerusalem will talk about the violence between the the Sicarii and Gerrer hasidim tonight on the radio.

SASHA CHAVKIN REPORTER FOR NY WORLD & MELISSA FRANCHY WHO RODE THE B110 WILLIAMSBURG-BORO PARK BUS & CREATED THE MEDIA FRENZY ABOUT WOMEN HAVING TO BE BACK OF BUS

ALSO: JERUSALEM DEPUTY MAYOR YITZHAK PINDRUS ON THE VIOLENT DISPUTE BETWEEN THE GER CHASSIDIC GROUP AND THE SIKRIKIM GROUP

ON

TALKLINE WITH ZEV BRENNER, SATURDAY NIGHT
OCTOBER 29, 2011
MIDNIGHT - 2 AM
 WMCA 570 AM METRO NY,
www.talklinecommunications.com & listen line at 712 432 2378 X1 OR 212- 419 4240 X 1

YOU CAN CALL IN, EMAIL, FACEBOOK, TWEET OR LINK IN QUESTIONS

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Comments

[Chutzpah]

http://www.nypost.com/p/news/local/brooklyn/shul_girl_oprah_3EGDmgFFm3Q5mq3xRYqYfJ

would they dare to tell Oprah to go to the back?

[Waiting4Moshiach]

So these are the mosers?

[p]

Maybe now they will see that if they must segregate then it is high time that the woman take control of the front of the bus and have the men go to the back.

[SkepticalYid]

Oprah could buy that bus company a million times over. They'd most likely kiss her tuchis before they tried to put her in back of the bus.

[seymour]

what I do not like is that on this radio station they mix the woman and men, can you imagine a woman caller after a man and then a woman

have they no shame..
where is the separation, and no distortion of the woman vices where are the rebbies regarding this abomination

[Jeff]

So these are the mosers?

Posted by: Waiting4Moshiach | October 29, 2011 at 09:58 PM

I'll ask again - could someone PLEASE go over to this lunatic's apartment and introduce him to the business end of a baseball bat?

[Phillip]

Who was that lunatic rabbi at the end of the
show.... somehow he mixed this topic with
same sex marriage. He also wanted gender
separation for the entire nation since this
produces more children.

Haven help from the crazy religious leaders.

AUDIO of the show

SASHA CHAVKIN REPORTER FOR NY WORLD & MELISSA FRANCHY WHO RODE THE B110 WILLIAMSBURG-BORO PARK BUS & CREATED THE MEDIA FRENZY ABOUT WOMEN HAVING TO BE BACK OF BUS

http://talklinecommunications.com/broadcasts/?p=episode&name=2011-10-30_talkline_sun_1030_willy_bus_controversy.mp3

[Waiting4Moshiach]

I listen and this woman is not from our community but she is a shiksa catholic girl getting in our bizness. She shud worry about her priests and not what the Yidden do.

[Phillip]

Waiting4Moshiach

You are part of the problem.....if this bus
company accepts one penny from the City.
They have to follow both Federal/City laws.

Maybe you need to go sit in the back of a
bus and see on you like it.
You need to use how to use spell check before
posting.

[Different Dave]

if this reporter wouldn't sound like a blithering idiot I might actually take him seriously.

[shlimel]

Why is rebetzin Winfrey wearing a long coat and the rebbe a short one?

[Korbendallas72]

Stop talking to Waiting4Moshiach, he's sockpuppeting.

[seymour]

if this reporter wouldn't sound like a blithering idiot I might actually take him seriously.

Posted by: Different Dave | October 30, 2011 at 08:38 AM

she had to repeat herself over and over since the frum where asking and repeating the question over and over

[WoolSilkCotton]

We see the same technique here.
The frumma try to wear you down asking the same stupid thing over and over, pretending (or not) to be stupid, or ignoring all logic and reasoning.
That is the frumma 'debating' technique they learn from studying the Gemorrah.
Just annoy the opposition until they give up.

[seymour]

Posted by: WoolSilkCotton | October 30, 2011 at 01:25 PM

what is really annoying it that they are claiming the separation is a Jewish thing as has been since the beginning of time

and that is simply false.

also the story of Abraham traveling and then noticing his wife in the water makes no sense

how could that be, is the Torah saying that Abraham was traveling sitting next to his wife.

how could that be she and other woman should have been in the back of the caravan.

something is not making sense

[WoolSilkCotton]

According to the frumma, Abraham wore a shtreimel and a long black heavy wool or silk coat, with a white shirt. Sarah wore a burka.

[Mendy Hecht]

The women don't "have to be in the back of the bus."

They self-segregate by voluntarily seating themselves in the women's section of the bus.

Which on this bus happens to be in the back.

On other buses overwhelmingly serving riders who subscribe to a particular Orthodox Jewish community custom, like the Monsey Trails bus service, the women's section is side-by-side with the men's section.

There are two problems here:

1. The B-110 bus gets money from the city, and as such, must adhere to city non-discrimination rules--and discrimination is what this appears to be (it's not, but that's for later)

2. The "back of the bus" has ugly connotations of real segregation in this country, invoking the dark days of the real racism of the 1960s and before that.

So, thanks to dubious reportage (minus the recent Wall Street Journal article, which actually did a half-decent job of reporting, not snidely sniping as the others did), people read "discrimination" and go "Agh! Bigotry! Sexism! Backwards religious wackos!" without, of course, bothering to find out what's really going on and why--or just using this story to further their own bigoted stereotypes.

(Not that anyone here at FM has any bigotry towards the Orthodox, of course. Oh, no. Not at all.)

But discrimination against women is not at all what this is about. (And, by the way, why is this not discrimination against men? Logically men are being discriminated against by the women here as much as vice-versa—but you won’t hear that anywhere. Because men are supposed to be aggressive, evil dominators, you see. The natural scientific fact, however, is that men are attracted to women far more than women are attracted to men. Modern society, in the name of “equality,” stifles this. The Orthodox community embraces and channels this.)

So what this is about is mostly religious riders choosing for themselves to sit by gender.

And this "rule" is not enforced by the bus company (i.e. the drivers)--it's "enforced" by the riders.

Again, as mentioned, this community segregates itself.

If they could put a partition down the center of the bus—men on one side, women on the other, so that the genders were equal and side by side, mind you—they would.

But because the bus gets public money, they can’t do that.

So its riders do the next best thing: the men sit in the front so as to not make the women uncomfortable feeling that the men might be looking at them. (And yes, that’s a sign of health and normalcy, not religious repression.) The women, for their part, sit in their exclusive section, among sisters.

How’s that for justice for women?

[Rebitzman]

How’s that for justice for women?

Replace "women" with "negros" and you have just written (using your whoe post as context) a new chapter to The Help.

Seperate but equal was stomped and stomped hard by SCOTUS 50 years ago,

Mendy - the solution seems SO simple. You want seperate seating, buy a bus, maintain it, hire a driver, and sever the franchise with NYC.

For the record, I do not believe this bus receives direct funding from the city. You can't use bus passes on it ($2.50 cash only) and the route and schedule are determined by a group of rabbis. They ate already 90% of the way to autonomy NOW. I can only speculate (maintenance, taxes, Arlington.....) as to WHY they are under the NYC franchise now.

Make the fare $3, borrow the money and cut the franchise OR stop your whining and obey the law.

[Rebitzman]

Sorry for the typos. Using my iPad and the keyboard.......nt so good.

[p]

So what this is about is mostly religious riders choosing for themselves to sit by gender.

And this "rule" is not enforced by the bus company (i.e. the drivers)--it's "enforced" by the riders.

If that is the case how does the city force the passengers to sit where the city wants them to sit? Do they have special enforcers who assigns people to sit in an "acceptable" distributed manner? Does the driver have to stop the bus and "shuffle" where the passengers sit?

It is impractical to micromanage a city like new york to such a level. The correct way to handle is to tell anyone who asks that there is no special reserved seating on the bus. If any passenger claims that there is a policy of segregated seating in force on the bus the driver should state that that is not the case. If the passenger insists and is getting rowdy then the driver should stop the bus and call the police.

[Barry]

Mendy, within a particular jurisdiction there can only be one standard to enforcable sexual mores. A naturist can not walk around stark naked down Broadway notwithstanding that he sees nothing wrong in nudity and likewise a Muslim cannot force a woman to wear a veil.

The standard of sexual mores in NYC is democratically decided by society as a whole. That democratic standard forbids men from entering women's changing rooms or toilets but does not forbid women from siting were they want on a bus. Of course, orthodox Jews feel these standards are too low, however New York society as a whole (which includes its women) think differently. Women generally understand that sexual modesty has always been used as a tool of repression and the fact that the orthodox minority disagree is neither here or there because the law follows the majority. In the 19th century women pressed for rational clothing and did not care that some men might get aroused at seeing their ankles.

When Halacha and Civil Law conflict, civil law must be followed. It is for that reason that I would dismiss any employee who for example refused to shake a woman's hand or refused to be alone in a room with a woman. Hareidi sexual mores do conflict with equality legislation but that is no reason to force Hareidim to comply with such legislation. If a Hareidi does not wish to sit next to a woman on a bus then he should walk. By walking he would be keeping both Halacha and Civil Law.

[Waiting4Moshiach]

When Torah and 'civil law' conflict, we Yidden have no choice but to follow Torah. Always. And I say if we set a good example, the goyim will follow. But do not show fear because like with a kelev, they can smell fear in us. And that is when the goy becomes a problem.

[seymour]

Posted by: Waiting4Moshiach | October 30, 2011 at 09:19 PM
stop you BS

there is no Toarh law that says men and woman cannot sit together

as a matter of fact if one reads the Torah it seems that they did sit together

[Gevezener Chusid]

much ado about nothing - brought about ONLY because of people wanting to make life difficult for the Orthodox to practice their way of life.

[anuran]

GC, stop screeching "Nebech in galus! We need Moshiach NOW! The goyim are all anti-semites!"

This isn't the world revolving around you.

This is about a group of Bronze Age dickheads who think laws only apply to other people. It wouldn't matter if they were Cambodians or Canadians. If you have a public bus you can't discriminate.

If the bus line pandered to Muslims instead of Charedim and demanded that Jews sit at the back and wear red hats you would shriek and howl your little lungs out. You'd curse. You'd sue. You'd probably throw rocks and dirty diapers at the bus as it went by.

[WoolSilkCotton]

++they can smell fear in us++

That's not fear they're smelling from the frumma, it's BO.

[Adam Neira]

I can't listen to this but two points...

The violence between the Jewish sects must stop. Land and zoning disputes must be solved without violence. Is a higher authority being respected ?

The gender segregation issue on the buses is a joke. This is not the medievil ages.

Nir Barkat and the civil authorities in Jerusalem are doing a good job. The police should be respected and given full license to maintain law and order. The most important thing that all the arms of government do is to prevent and mitigate violence.

[Barry]

GC, if the orthodox are allowed exemption from the law because it conflicts with their way of life, then why should not the Germans be allowed to do the same?

The law being the same for every citizen is the foundation of democracy. Nothing encourages sectarianism and racism more than the belief that one segment of society is allowed to get away with conduct which is penalized for the remainder of society.

If Hareidim insist on continuing any conduct which conflicts with US law then they should either accept the penalties they receive or leave the USA for countries which allow such conduct.

[Flatbush Man]

Can you please post a link to the audio

[Rebitzman]

@Adam Neira

Well said

[FirstGenerationBavarianAmerican]

From the link above, the audio is on Talkline's website:

http://talklinecommunications.com/broadcasts/?p=episode&name=2011-10-30_talkline_sun_1030_willy_bus_controversy.mp3

I'm surprised at the number of people who called the reporter and his friend "troublemakers". If you look around the New York World website, you see that it is a project to promote journalism and is not sponsored by Rupert Murdoch but by the Columbia School of Journalism. The author was merely pointing out a franchised bus line was adhering to religious customs.

From industry directories, this bus company seems to also provide private and charter bus service. Maybe they forget this particular run is quite public.

[seymour]

much ado about nothing - brought about ONLY because of people wanting to make life difficult for the Orthodox to practice their way of life.

Posted by: Gevezener Chusid | October 30, 2011 at 10:31 PM

no they are imposing their live style on other and making live difficult for others

woman on the bus
opposing bike lanes
and of course availing themselves to all programs even when they really are not eligible
shaming Jews by their actions

need i bring more examples

[Gevezener Chusid]

They are not making life difficult for women on the bus, since the women who REALLY take that bus don't object to separated seating. There are transportation alternatives available that anyone dissatisfied with that bus may take.

I actually agree with you on the other examples. When I was part of the community and I objected to the rampant welfare, foodstamp, medicaid, and Section 8 fraud, I was told "Ale shvartses tihn azoy, farvus nisht ins?" (All the blacks do it, why not us?) So you want to equate yourself with the lowest common denominator of welfare frauds and government subsidized brood sows. This was in fact one of the reasons why I left. The hypocrisy of preaching that "God provides" and then stealing from the government was more than I could reconcile. Of course, not everyone is guilty of this.

However, I maintain that the point of the person making this issue into one of importance is only to cause trouble for the Orthodox communities and not because she is truly concerned about the general state of women's rights.

[rebitzman]

However, I maintain that the point of the person making this issue into one of importance is only to cause trouble for the Orthodox communities and not because she is truly concerned about the general state of women's rights.

And this is justification for breaking the law?

Like I told Mendy - the Hassids already control this bus route, you are not able to use an NYC bus pass to board this bus, and the line takes no city money (it has a city franchise for tax and maintenance purposes). Raise the fee to $3.00 (from $2.50), find a place to park it - hire your own driver, pay the taxes to operate a bus within the city and cut the franchise with the city.............

Then you're legal.

But until and unless you are willing to do that - obey they dang law.

[Jack Tripper]

As long as the bus picks up passengers at a bus stop, it's a public accomodation and governed by Federal, state, and local public accommodation laws.

It would have to be a charter, and couldn't pick up any passengers other than members.

Whether or not the bus line gets money from the city is irrelevant. It doesn't. I doubt very much if the Hotel Pierre gets money from the city, at least I'd hope not. But it has to follow the same public accommodations laws.

[Ilana]

This story was picked up here in Australia tonight. *cringe* Must say that when i lived in Crown Heights we girls wanted to go to the other end of the bus from the men. We would have been most uncomfortable sitting near them. But I think that bus was privately owned.

[Ilana]

I meant the bus to Boro Park.

[Teletrade-dj]

This is not fair!