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October 04, 2011

Exclusive: Illegally Posted Signs Tell Women To Step Aside To Make Way For Hasidic Men

Precious Jewish Daughter- Please move to the side when a man approaches closeup The signs are bolted to publicly owned trees along Bedford Avenue in the heavily hasidic neighborhood of Williamsburg, Brooklyn.

 

A reader sent me this picture last night and says the signs are bolted to publicly owned trees along Bedford Avenue in Williamsburg, Brooklyn

 The reader translates the sign this way: "Precious Jewish Daughter: Please move to the side when a man approaches!"

Precious Jewish Daughter- Please move to the side when a man approaches closeup


Precious Jewish Daughter- Please move to the side when a man approaches

 

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Go guys! Let's preserve that Bronze Age savagery! Make NO concession to modernity at all.

I also hope they get fined for damaging the trees - putting large screws into them in this way could damage or kill them by allowing the introduction of infectious agents or poisoning due to the screw materials. In addition, further fines could and should apply for illegal use of public property (including the use of public property to promote a religious cause).

and the women put up with this??????

these things will go on until the leaders say something about this lunacy

but then again maybe they agree


theese hassidim live in a tottalatarian neighborhood where the law of the land is not their law and they can or think can get AWAY WITH ABSOLUTE STUPIDITY.

I want to raise my sign in each Hasidic neighbourhood:

Precious Jewish Daughter: The males of this neighbourhood are chauvinistic misogynists who insist on their supremacy over women although they are generally frightened to death of a mature relationship and would rather diddle little boys in the mikvah.

If one of these bastards asks you to make way for him, be sure to spit in his eye.

Stedp aside, bitch. You're in the presence of a PENIS. The Sacred Bobbed Dick makes its owner the Crown of Creation, Adonai's Vicar on Earth.

Can anybody tell me where it says that a woman walking down the street must step aside for a man?

Picture this. A mother pushing a double stroller on the sidewalk followed by 4 young children steps into the street to avoid a man and narrowly misses being hit by a car.

I forgot to write: Where in the Shulchan Aruch does it say that women must step aside for a man on the street?

Maybe it should read young boys watch out
for anyone in a black hat and dirty beard.

This whole chasidis fucking bullshit is dying anyways these assnholes are just making sure that it happens as fast as possible!!!!!

Those who put up these signs are cowardly in only using Yiddish. They would not dare to put these signs up in English because they would elicit a reaction of both ridicule and disgust from the non-Jewish press and public as they got from the doctoring Hillary Clinton from the famous situation room photo.

The best response to these signs would be for a poster to be stuck immediately below each of these posters wherever they appear stating

' Translation of the above from Yiddish into Engish

"Precious Jewish Daughter: Please move to the side when a man approaches!"'

As the reaction to the antics of JPAC show, most Hareidim dislike having the more ridiculous aspects of their ideology publicised to non-Jews and these signs will quickly be removed.

Whenever you have a society where men treat women badly, the men always turn out to be cowards.

Another example of fake jews making up fake laws. These perpetrators should be hung on these same tress as the signs are in the fashion of haman and his sons.

Disgusting how these chassidim have no regard for the law.Plain and simple lawless people posting signs on publicly owned trees.

What it should say is if you don't move aside the man approaching you may get a raging hardon from your bullet proof stockings and bald head covered in polyester horse hair and if that happens he may rape you and it would be your fault for enticing him.

see the sign that appears on the street where the Satmar yeshiva stands.
It has been many years since I was there and its content is very similar to what yuo posted here

the sign has a nice font, and the tree looks nice. maybe he was doing it for aesthetic reasons.

Their inbreeding is already causing them to die out from genetic disorders. This sign is further proof that you can't keep marrying your first cousins and not end up with brain damage.

Their "toyreh" is certainly NOT God's TORAH.

What would Moses do?

And what an unbelievable Chillul Hashem it will be when a picture of this sign appears on the front page of the NY Post.

Those who put up these signs are cowardly in only using Yiddish. They would not dare to put these signs up in English because they would elicit a reaction of both ridicule and disgust from the non-Jewish press and public as they got from the doctoring Hillary Clinton from the famous situation room photo.

The best response to these signs would be for a poster to be stuck immediately below each of these posters wherever they appear stating

' Translation of the above from Yiddish into Engish

"Precious Jewish Daughter: Please move to the side when a man approaches!"'

As the reaction to the antics of JPAC show, most Hareidim dislike having the more ridiculous aspects of their ideology publicised to non-Jews and these signs will quickly be removed.

Posted by: Barry | October 04, 2011 at 10:55 AM

You are somehow mistaken, the ignorant scum know no English, if they knew English then they 'll be civilized.

D*mn! Being Orthodox is increasingly embarrassing.

You don't live there. You despise these people. Why do you care? (And don't tell me you care about the trees.)

I do wonder where these Williamsburgers get their ideas from, though.

It seems to me that the men there are so obsessed with forbidden sex that they don't have much time to think about anything else.

that sign would make a great trophy

My problem when visiting Williamsburg has always been trying to figure out which ones are the women!

Let's put up signs in German that say "Honorable Jew: Step Aside When an Aryan Approaches". How long do you think they'd last?

As per Deremes' argument it shouldn't be an issue. They're publicly owned trees. Isn't that right, Deremes???

I believe girls are volunteering to undergo the "Stepford Wife" chip implantation procedure in my neighborhood.

Last Shabbos my high school aged daughter was walking with her friends on the sidewalk. After awhile a group of yeshiva bochurim approached. As the bochurim drew near, her friends dispersed into the street. My daughter stayed on the sidewalk while her friends, dismayed, urged her to get into the street.

My daughter and the bochurim meet, and it was they who had to get off the sidewalk. The bochurim tried to say something clever, but it was my daughter who wasn't walking in the grass. Chumps!

I also hope they get fined for damaging the trees - putting large screws into them in this way could damage or kill them by allowing the introduction of infectious agents or poisoning due to the screw materials

Screw nature!

Let's put up signs in German that say "Honorable Jew: Step Aside When an Aryan Approaches". How long do you think they'd last?

Posted by: anuran | October 04, 2011 at 03:03 PM


I like it!!!!!

"Please move to the side when a man approaches!"

Interpretation: Just move it Bitches!

Posted by: skepticalyid | October 04, 2011 at 03:14 PM

The headline says:

""Illegally Posted Signs Tell Women To Step Aside To Make Way For Hasidic Men

Precious Jewish Daughter- Please move to the side when a man approaches closeup The signs are bolted to publicly owned trees along Bedford Avenue in the heavily hasidic neighborhood of Williamsburg, Brooklyn."""

Everyone made comments on what the signs says but no one mentioned that its against the law to post signs on publicly owned trees. I mean come on this is serious stuff as the headline says.Isn't it?

Do you think any papers would take this on as a story?

Sh'lo asani isha.

Frumiks say this every morning.

Blessed art thous, etc. who has not made me a woman.

Woman are second-class citizens according to halakha.

They are inferior on all levels according to halakha. They are only tolerated because they produce kids, make cholent, and clean house. They cannot divorce their husbands without rabbinical male agreement. They are the scum of the Jewish community.

Sorry to be so blunt but that's what is taught in every yeshiva in the world that I know of.

This religion, when taken at face value, is sick, sick ,sick.

Have some courage and worship Hashem without the avodah zorah called religion and " Torah-true" Judaism.

Nigritude Ultramarine, I salute you for passing the one true test of fatherhood. You have raised a daughter who can take care of herself.

As far as destroying the trees and hurting the environment, let me pass this pearl of frumik thinking along to you.

I used to learn in a private weekly shiur, one on one with a well known talmid chochom at Ner Yisroel in Baltimore. This went on for over seven years.

One night he began to complain about the new environmental laws that prohibited him from using an old air conditioner that would pollute and cause major public health issues.

He railed against those who cared about the environment. " What do I care about the atmosphere or the environment. That is all nonsense!! I want to be comfortable with my air conditioner when I sit and learn!!"

He was very proud that he had never gone to college or done any treyfe studies. I, who am a physician, had obviously wasted my life; I could have sat and learned and really helped serve hashem as we are commanded to do. We, the nebekhs who are off he derekh, are to get out of the way and honor those who truly serve hashem by warming a bench and learning.

His former chavrusa at Lakewood, a very famous rov, had set up the shiur for me with him.

The moment when the former chavrusa was nifter my rebbe dropped me like a hot potato claiming that he had no more time to learn with me.

It was all so transparent that it was almost embarrassing.

But not for him, apparently.

He never answered my calls or letter again. That was years ago.

So much for years of learning.

My response to that sign: What's Yiddish for "HELL, NO!"

This signage is not the work of a group but of individuals. The local lunacy society. They are probably the ones who demonstrate against Israel.

I agree with Litvish. Many of them are more subtle but most are not. It is a tribal game with them, if you are not the black hatter, you are garbage. I have seen this now first hand. It is simply that they are more comfortable with their own liars.

Mainly there game is that in outward appearance they deny some pleasures of this world and this makes them better people, but they are not much better than others and many of them are far worse infact.

The rebbe I mentioned was actually quite honest with me.

He told me that if I wanted to go to Israel and learn with his rebbe, a very well known man in the community, I would have to live a double life.

"Pretend that you are one of us. Just dress like us, talk like us. You are free to think whatever you want, do whatever you want as long as no one in the community knows ", he advised me.

He laughed when I told him that this seemed hypocritical. He said that everyone needs to do this in order to remain in good standing in the community. To believe otherwise was to be naive.

It is just like in gemoro when we are told that if you need to do stuff like cheat on your beshert then make sure no one knows; go to another city where no one knows you and fuck your brains out. Then clean yourself off and return home and no one will be the wiser. Oh, and you can also put up wall posters later on denouncing those who do not come to your high level of yiras shomayim.

It is the way that they have accommodated themselves to a very insular world where everyone knows everyone else's business and the degree of personal freedom is daily becoming more and more circumscribed.

Is this what we have come to after 2,000 years?

It's not much different then what we were like 2,000 years ago.

I lived in Williamsburg years ago, and the previous generations weren't so crazy. What happened?

BTW no one signed the sign. Anyone can put up whatever....

Now.... if it stays there for a long time, that means that the powers that be agree, or fear the terrorists.

Me thinks this will hit the 'news' starved media real soon, and off the sign will come.....

For those who have not made up their minds that Hasidim are just a bunch of Neanderthals (Rosenthals, maybe--I'll give you that much), there actually are explanations for the thinking behind these signs.

If you're interested and/or open-minded enough to stop laughing and start learning--even if you totally disagree--there are plenty of websites to start with.

Get that wood burning.

And that., Turd D., besides being hilarious, is exactly why they have to cover themselves up. Not always so other men won't look.... they don't want to see either!

Shouldn't these gentlemen and scholars (sic) be gracious and move out of the way for the weaker sex?!

You don't live there. You despise these people. Why do you care?
Posted by: Gevezener Chusid | October 04, 2011 at 01:57 PM


Neither did I live on the Branch Davidian ranch, better known as David Koresh’s compound. It comes a time that civilized human beings care about the plight of oppressed people. Did Williamsburg reach that level, no. Nevertheless, based on all new restrictions, I could see that sometime down the road it might reach that level.

If anyone happens to find one of these signs laying around I would gladly pay good money for it. Shmarya has my email address.

"Precious Jewish Sons: Please move to the side when a woman approaches: After all, she supports you financially while you fritter away your life and atrophy your able, young body by loitering about in the Bes Medrash. She rears your ten children while you power-walk on Lee Avenue, twirling your Peyes and talking on a cell phone. It is the Jewish daughter that puts up with all the insane Chumros of your out-of-touch rebbe, all the while laughing to herself and rolling her eyes when you turn your back. She puts up with your bull sh*t and takes all your abuse. So when a woman is heading your way, try and show her some courtesy by moving your unwashed self to the side and sparing the poor creature the infernal onslaught of your b.o. and halitosis."

To Anuran,

I am the owner of a hilarious, high Alexa ranked website called www.funnysigns.com. I would appreciate it if you did not step on my turf. The shop has a swelling "Weird Signs for Yids" section and prices are skyrocketing. I have managed to corner the market but am always on the lookout for new signs of insanity, medieval repression or just plain mis-spellings. My favourite specimen is of a sandwich chalkboard from a restaurant in Guangdong that says "No. 42 - Fried Children and Rice." For more rib tickling exhibits please visit my site. FM is almost becoming as valuable for my business as strolling through certain neighbourhoods.

Litvish,

Why did you continue learning with this guy for over SEVEN years? How did you tolerate the self-righteousness and double-standards for that long? Were you religious at the time? Did you see this rebbe's disinterest when you were learning with him, before his chavrusa passed away?

People's stories and journies with frumkeit are fascinating to me. So many of us walked paths of intitial inspiration followed by disillusionment. What is it with us humans? What is it with frumkeit?

Shmarya has my email address if you'd like to share your story and email me privately.

...there actually are explanations for the thinking behind these signs.

Tayereh Mendy The Apologist -

The explanations only make it worse as they were written by mysoginists whose whole view of women are that they are inferior. Claiming that this is "holy" in some way because some rabbi said so 400 years ago doesn't change any of it. Even if some rabbi said so 2,000 years ago, and even if you would like to believe that Moshe Rabbeinu said so 3,500 years ago because he heard it from the mouth of God. No explanation makes it excusible. None.

If you're interested and/or open-minded enough to stop laughing and start learning...

The laughter and jokes about this are generally good-humored. If you want people to "stop laughing" the only valid response to this sign (especially from women) is "F- You!"

It is YOU and your yeshivah boys club from the stone age that needs to be "open minded" and "start learning". Start with evolution. Even man evolves. Yup, it's true. And you can "learn" all about it in your local library. Check it out if your Rebbe gives you a permission slip to go. Don't worry, I wont tell God.

Being a young veibl in Williamsburg (on the 'net from my business), let me give you some perspective.

You guys are outsiders, and fail to understand that the women from Williamsburg do not want to walk into a man, as much as a man does not want to walk into a woman.

Since a woman is metziva on tznius, the natural thing for a woman to do is to move out of the direct eye/walk line of an approaching man.

Even in our day and age, believe it or not, there are still many women out there who do not gain their self confidence from male attention. We understand that having to show skin to a male in order to be looked at, is highly degrading. - Our confidence comes from producing cute little children, taking care of them, cooking and baking for the family, and running a spic n' span house, etc.

No man thinks that he's superior to his wife, or to us in general. But both know that they each have their own territories. The woman runs the household, the man makes a living. The woman watches the kids at home, the man goes to shul. The men are responsible for mitzvos A thru Z, the women are only responsible for mitzvos N thru Q. Nothing wrong with a systematic approach to life, where no one steps on the others toe or turf.

And the greatest hypocrisy is that while you guys ridicule an entire community as inferior to yourselves, because of the different values they live by, you claim that your problem with them is that they treat certain people or gender as inferiors...

Chaya Ruchy, when normal people walk on the sidewalk approaching each other, each keeps to the right, just like driving a car. That way you don't slam head on into the oncoming person. Normal people do not need signs when walking to tell them that.

++The woman runs the household, the man makes a living.++
Then why are you blogging on a computer at your job?

Wool, just to answer your last question, I'm supplementing my husbands income, in order to afford the things I like. Not for necessities.

You guys are outsiders, and fail to understand that the women from Williamsburg do not want to walk into a man, as much as a man does not want to walk into a woman.

Since a woman is metziva on tznius, the natural thing for a woman to do is to move out of the direct eye/walk line of an approaching man.


What you're missing is that, regardless of one's religious orientation and how one believes men and women should interact, Williamsburg is in NYC, in the USA, and as such, there are rules and laws to be followed, and individual rights to be respected in the public sphere.

In the USA no one has the right to tell someone (based on their gender or other distinguishing factor) that they must step aside for someone else on a public sidewalk on a public street, let alone put up signs (on public property, no less) telling them to do it.

If they want to practice this behavior in their own homes, in their synagogues, or other private property, that is their business. However, bringining it onto public thoroghfares by putting up signs on public property calling for it is completely out of bounds, and it is perfectly reasonable for others to criticize it.

Chaya, what you fail to understand - and I'll forgive you because you're just a woman - is just how evil this is. You might object if the signs told Blacks to step off the sidewalk for Whites so they wouldn't get their nasty niggerstink on them. You'd howl if the signs told Jews to get out of the way for Christians.

But you've spent a lifetime swimming in a sea of filth. Any demeaning restriction on women, any denial of their humanity and worth is justified by the magic word "tznius".

Your cult is obsessed with sex to a degree seen nowhere outside hardcore porn addicts' recovery groups. Putting change in someone's hand leads to damnation. The sight of a lock of hair makes men masturbate into a coma. Singing one note can turn a roomful of elderly Sages into rutting beasts. Passing a baby or a fork at the wrong time of month leads to illicit sex of a type so vile as to damn you for all eternity.

And the result of all of this is ever-crazier restrictions.

If it were done to anyone except women you'd think it was mad or bad or both. But since you've grown up with the message that women are lesser creatures and filthy seductresses you accept it when this sort of crap is done to you.

Mendy writes:

For those who have not made up their minds that Hasidim are just a bunch of Neanderthals (Rosenthals, maybe--I'll give you that much), there actually are explanations for the thinking behind these signs.

If you're interested and/or open-minded enough to stop laughing and start learning--even if you totally disagree--there are plenty of websites to start with.

OK. Enligthen us. What possible justification is there for this that doesn't come down to

a) Women are bags of shit (the Talmud's words) and vessels of impurity

b) Women aren't quite human, so they have to get out of the way of their betters

c) That magic word "tznius" which justifies anything

And please don't insult our intelligence by using the word "learn" here. We both know that "learning" in your world means uncritical acceptance of the authority of the teacher and text with eternal argument about the minutiae. If you want people to accept your basic premises you'll have to make a good case for them.

Hi, Abracadabra

These are all good questions.

I used to learn in a haredi yeshivo in J-m. I am a baal tshuvah and was forever reminded of that when I was frum. I was the second baal tshuvah accepted there. The other one became so frum that he will no longer talk with me.

When I returned to the US I thought that by learning with well known talmidey chochomim I would make up for my late start in learning. I had no idea that many of these people, in spite of all their learning, would never accept me for whom I was/am.

Yes, I was naive. I wanted to find emes but I was looking in the wrong place. I wanted a community that was warm and accepting. I found neither. It never worked for me but, in spite of that, I wanted it to work and kept going back, kept returning hoping that it would somehow be different. It never was.

Over the years I grew more and more angry as I realized that in spite of much of the wisdom I found in Torah most of the people I ran across were very limited in their perspectives and contemptuous of anyone outside of their community. After I left the yeshivo I was told by a former rebbe that they could never find a shidukh for me since I was a treyfe beyn, a baal tshuvah who has zero yikhos, someone ruined by having gone to college and coming from a non-frum home.

At the time I visited this rebbe, many years after I had learned there, he, too, had been thrown out of the yeshivo in a power struggle. He refused to discuss the details with me since he said it was loshn horo. Instead, he sat alone in his apartment learning while his wife worked to support them. He informed me that since I was not as frum as I should be, I should listen to kol nidrei outside the shul since I was too tomei to go inside. Then I should go home where I belonged.

I kid you not.

I had learned many good and noble things that didn't originate with them which I shared with them. However,if it didn't originate from their mouths or those of their rebbes then no matter how helpful the understanding and knowledge,it was not only worthless but actually considered harmful.

The only one who really embodied gadlos ha-odom that I knew was the rov in Lakewood, a former talmid of R. Aaron Kotler. However, after the death of R. Kotler, my friend was literally ostracized for being "too liberal".

His former talmidim would cross the street to avoid giving him sholom. He was thrown out of the yeshivo where he was a magid shiur and stripped of his pension.

He was a broken man and died depressed and full of anger against the Jewish Taliban that had taken over, as he called them.

I went from adoring everything to do with this community to despising it.

I hope that this is helpful to you, Abracadabra

Chaya,

The major flaw in your group-think is as follows:

The sign is NOT written in English. Therefore, it is not directed toward the hipster chicks who dress anyway they wish.

The sign is NOT written in Hebrew. Therefore, it is not directed toward the modern Orthodox, who dress in what most normal people would consider modest. (although Satmar would consider them to be prostitutes.)

The sign is written in YIDDISH! It's directed toward the Satmar women who already dress in the most hyper-tznius way possible! The very same women who delude themselves into thinking that any woman who doesn't wear a hat on top of a wig on top of a shaved head is a pritza who only cares about male attention.

I have news for you---most people in this world manage to walk down a sidewalk without bumping into too many people of the opposite sex. It's possible. It's called walking with your eyes open. When your husband walks down the streets of Williamsburg, does he expect pregnant women with strollers to dart into traffic, lest he be forced to look at them? Does he ever go into other neighborhoods and expect the local women to do the same?

Hi Litvish,

I'm sorry to hear about your experiences. I'm also a baal teshuva living in Baltimore. My experiences have been pretty much positive here.

I am of the opinion that the biggest problem the frum community has is that we don't learn the Written Torah without the commentaries. For some crazy reason, in general, frum people think they are special and G-d's gift to the world and all the goyim are either at best unenlightened and at worst evil.

If frum people would read the Tanach straight, we would find that we are a bunch of failures and that's why we don't have a Temple anymore. And G-d has been angry with us for at least 2,000 years, because we are always fighting with each other about the most trivial of matters. Yes, G-d loves us, but He's giving us a clear message that we're a bunch of putzes. So let's acknowledge this and stop sugar-coating the truth by telling ourselves that we are somehow morally superior to the goyim. We're not. We're just as f-ed up as they are, just in different ways. We should just be happy that G-d tolerates our silliness.

i'd sayy bugger off ur no better than i am that he also needs to stop living in the Bronze age and that men and women are made equal and that those are illegal and those need to be taken down and I would hand them a tool to take them down and if they say anything i would tell them yu put them up illegally and by law you can be arrested so take them down or I would be calling the police!

Hi, Betzalel

I live close to Baltimore.

I think that it might have been different for me if I had friends like you but I didn't.

Anyway, thanks for writing.

This site helps connect some of us who think differently than those who brag that they are " on the derekh", a term I have always found repulsive.

Litvish,

"On the derech" should mean living your life as a free man, not as a slave to men, since we were freed from Egypt. Unfortunately, the way it is used today means someone who is a slave to the rabbis of his frum community.

Don't get me wrong; I respect rabbis. But I don't ask "how high?" if they tell me to jump. But this is the mindset of many in the frum community. I don't see how this is different than being a slave in Egypt.

This is because we've forgotten that we have a Written Torah. We've become dependent on the rabbis by only paying attention to the Oral Torah.

Litvish, sorry about all that. you might have liked the MO, there are bunches of BTs where I live, they seem very happy that is they have stayed the course. I am speaking as one who has been back and forth a few times but enjoy the middle of the road.

Litvish,

That is quite a story. Thank you for sharing it. I'm sorry you were mistreated, and subjected to so much of what is dark and dreadful about frum life, and the judgment of FFBs on BTs. That is dreadful. You have quite a lot to be angry about.

I would think that a group that is so dependent on Baalei Teshuva as the frum world is (otherwise their numbers are dropping) would at least TRY to treat Baalei Teshuva as full-fledged members of the club. But unfortunately, it doesn't work that way.

I happened to have always, even in my frummest years, have enjoyed Baalei Teshuva more than FFB's. I felt BT's were more "real" and had less pretenses and hangups than us FFBs who were always putting on a show.

I will never forget someone I dated (many, many years ago) who talked down about Baalei Teshuva saying how "BTs are so strange and weird and I wouldn't want to live next to any of them". For me the date ended there, I never saw that person again, and never allowed anyone to convince me to give them another chance, even though I was pressured to. I simply couldn't tolerate someone who was so intolerant about something which was so incrediblly stupid and baseless.

Anyway, you have every right to be angry. I'm sorry you were mistreated.

I think many of us have been mistreated by the very "authorities" in the frum world who represented and supposedly carried the torch of Hashem's word and His Torah. And that mistreatment is enough to shake us up and think, and rethink, and realize that maybe we should peek behind the curtain to see who the wizard really is. Most of us have discovered that he's a stupid little man who just makes a lot of noise. And people are riding on his word, and abusing others with the powers granted them by this imaginary "wizard".

I would agree with someone above who mentioned that Modern Orthodoxy is a lot more openminded, decent and mentchlich for that matter in terms of how they treat people - BTs, non-Jews, anyone. They aren't bigotted about BTs because they aren't as fired up about the small stuff. I guess you could say that they are just generally not fundamentalist in their outlook like the Yeshivish and Chassidish are, and it comes through in how they treat people and view things like holiness and yichus, etc. But unfortunately Modern Orthodoxy seems to be dying, and Fundamentalism is taking over.

Anyway, thank you again for sharing your story. I'm sorry for what you went through.

For anyone reading this who is Yeshivish or Chassidish - take notes - read what "Litvish" wrote above - and please learn from your culture's mistakes and stop hurting people for no good reason!

Have some courage and worship Hashem without the avodah zorah called religion and " Torah-true" Judaism.

Posted by: Litvish | October 04, 2011 at 04:24 PM

Why are you referring to Him as Hashem? Call Him by His real name mentioned in the written Torah... Get my drift?

Litvish, I feel your pain, and know firsthand what it's like to realize that what you thought was a beautiful group of people and way of life is just a bunch of petty crass selfish small-minded people who are consumed with materialism and mind-numbing rote.

Frumma rabbis don't know anything more about God and spirituality than me and you know.

As astutely observed above by Abra, you want to peek behind the curtain to see the wizard, and you discover some smelly old guy picking his nose and counting his money.

They want you to become a BT, and then they treat you like a second class citizen because you are a BT. And you want to be accepted by them, they've drawn you in, and you let yourself keep imagining that you're fully accepted, although somewhere deep inside you know the truth. Some of us eventually grab ahold of ourselves and get out of the cult-like state we found ourselves trapped in. Others just stay to avoid the anguish of having to face the fact that we got duped.

Abracadabra, Litvish and Betzalel
I am the grandson of non religious jews. So I do feel for BTs. However, let it be noted that from the many BTs I have met in my lifetime, most were weird at best. Those who mainstreamed are doing quite well - even on the shidduchim horizon (at least for their children). Too many BTs simply don't get it and can't adjust properly. They are always 'different' both in thought and appearance. That is THE turn off. It does not make you a bad person, but some of your nuisances are annoying.
My dad שיחיה is an extremely bright individual and quickly realized that he needs to blend in order to be accepted; boy, was he accepted. I sometimes let out the secret... and people are in total disbelief. As a matter of fact, one of my great brothers in law does not know to this very day that he fathers the great grandchildren of mechalelei shabbos.
So my message to you is; get it or go; dray nit kein kup...
I can't hold it against you for not being able to see the beauty in it all and couldn't adjust to fit... So I guess going was the right choice. I hope you are happy now.

G'mar tov.

Yechiel, you make a good point that I know to be true, that many BT's have psychiatric issues, which may, in fact, be part of the reason why they join the hasidic world, looking for a quick fix to their loneliness, depression, etc. Some are just fanatical and extremist in everything they do, which is why you have people from other religious cults, drug users, ex-hippies, radical types, who now take on hasidism; they're just trading one extreme lifestyle for another. It's their 'flavor of the month'.

'Kiruv' groups, like Chabad, look for recruits among such people, finding them to be easy targets, with promises of friendship, activities, being part of a group, etc.
As a result, hasidic groups find themselves with a segment of BT's that are troubled and sometimes troublesome, as we see, for example, with some of the characters going to Uman each year.

It is interesting that you said "...those who mainstreamed are doing quite well..." and that is how I feel about the nonreligious and nonJewish world I live in. I have found that living as best as I can as an erlicher person, trying to be a mensch, still with a connection to religion and spirituality (but not what you would consider as orthodox) works for me. The nonJewish people I know aren't the raging antisemites, the Esau types, that the religious world keeps pumping you up to believe.

Yechiel, you also said "...I guess going was the right choice...".
You are the first orthodox person who has ever said that. All others ridicule and condemn those who decided to leave.

A G'mar Sima Tovah to you to, and hope the fast is an easy one.

WoolSilkCotton and Yechiel,

As a baal teshuva, not once have I had any desire to become like the FFBs. I can't stand the food they eat (the Ashkenazim, not the Sephardim), and I can't stand the fact that many don't seem to cover their mouth when they chew. I guess it's because they never learned to eat with Gentiles and secular Jews, who eat quietly and don't tolerate chewing loudly. So I never really cared if they accepted me as one of them or not.

I only became frum or religious because the religious Jews convinced me that the Torah is Divine. Before that, I thought it was all made up by Moses, because in the movie "Ten Commandments", only Moses heard Ten Commandments, not the Israelites.

I am now very happy to be Torah-observant. The Torah is packed with so much great information that someone who is FFB doesn't appreciate what they have, as they've never had the experience of living without knowing this information.

Yechiel- it's sad that you have no idea how horrendous your posting really is. "Blend in?" Wear exactly the same clothes, parrot the same words, show no individuality , creativity or critical thinking that's beyond the masses or you will be stigmatized?

No wonder there are increasing numbers of people going OTD. Orthodoxy in the U.S. once offered a great number of options ranging from MO to Haredi. Now, with the constant downward spiral to the right, most of what's left is theocratic fascism.

WSC
Every word you wrote about BT types is the honest truth (see Uman...)
I have no issue with those that decide to leave after realizing that they can't make it, as long as you go on with your life and don't dictate to me how to behave or ridicule my lifestyle.
G'mar tov

Betzalel
So you like middle eastern cuisine... Good for you.
Every culture has customs/behaviors that may annoy others. Belching after a meal is one example. From our perspective, it is unpolite.
I wonder why it is 'spiralling downward, to the right...
More people going OTD only proves the weak nature of today's generation; nothing else.

Skeptical
The last three lines in my previous comment were meant for you.

Without getting into an argument as to the sanity,or lack thereof, of placing these signs out there,I wonder.Do those individuals who seem to be loosing sleep over the fact that these signs are defacing public trees on public property also have similar concerns about people who have their dogs pee on these trees on a ongoing basis? Or is their concern limited to defacement of public property by Hasidim?

AH
Well said.
Tyey are obsessed with Haredim only.

Thanks to everyone, including Yehiel, for your comments.

Since a very young age I was aware of the hypocrisy all around me. Adults would say one thing and do something totally different.

I knew that life could really be beautiful and I dreamed of a community where I could share in that.

When I went to the conservative shul where I was bar mitzvahed I found something missing. So I went to Israel at age 20 and sought hashem by going to a yeshivo, Torah Or, which, at that time was in the Diskin Orphan Asylum in Givat Shaul.

I observed the most gruesome scenes on a daily basis. Young, innocent sefardi bokhurim were being abused and starved in the name of Satmar and other haredim, hasidim making a ton of gelt off of them. They were beaten, treated like animals, kicked, constantly abused by these haredi thugs.

Diskin sent out constant mailing ( I still receive them over 40 years later) schnoring gelt for the poor yesoymim.

When I revisited Diskin a few years ago I wanted to see the part where our beys medresh was located. A very large chosid barred my way and started yelling that I needed to make a cash contribution or I could not enter the place. A frume Israeli, not chosid, was just standing there laughing.
I walked away in disgust. They have many large, brand new buildings - mostly empty.

The above may sound extreme. Trust me, it wasn't compared to what I experienced.

Torah Or was my first yeshivo; I spent two years there from 20-22. I desperately wanted to blend in, find my path. It was very demoralizing. I was given clothing, belief systems, customs, occasional invites to shabbos meals but never, ever hashem.

I was constantly reminded that I would never qualify as a true Jew because of my background.

I returned to the US and learned with R. Shloyme Freifeld in Far Rockaway, NY. He treated me with respect but finally and very honestly, told me that I would never, ever be accepted for whom I really am in his community. I told him that I was gay and had always known this. He was very sympathetic and told me that the frume velt was not ready for anyone like me. He told me to please keep in touch and never lose sight of whom I am and that I am as much created in the image and likeness of hashem as anyone else in the world. This was a great gift. So I went to college and learned a way to support myself, as he suggested. Later, when he was dying of cancer, I returned to visit him. He told me that I had wasted my life by becoming a physician. He said that I should have gone into chinuch where I might have done some good for the community.

For many lonely years I lived on my own since I couldn't find a place to fit in as a Jew or a gay man who loved hashem. Neither community had any use for someone like me.

Later, in 1976 when I was a grad student at the University of Chicago, I saw gay Jews converting to Christianity to find a loving and respectful community. This made me furious. Why were these gute neshomos being cut off from our Jewish yerusha?

In response, I began the third gay and lesbian shul in the world. The Chicago Jewish community refused to even speak with us for close to 20 years. They would not rent us space to davven in empty shuls. They rented them to Christians but not us. I attended the shul's 30th anniversary celebration in 2006. They told me that because of what I did, several thousand Jews over the years were m'karev back into the community and helped start bikur kholim, charities for poor people, community services,etc. I never knew that my little efforts would bring such wonderful results.

We never know the ways of hashem until we ask him to lead us.

I am at peace with hashem and my life. I am now in my 26th year of living with another man and, finally, have the deep intimacy and love I have always sought. We pray over every meal and give thanks daily for all that we have been given.

We also recognize that we must love ourselves instead of trying to get others to love and accept us.

I love my fellow Jews but don't love what some of them say and do in the name of Torah and hashem.

I continue to learn on my own. My Jewish education continues and I pray daily that all of us will find peace and love via his great gift and presence.

Thanks again to all who write here.

You guys are a bunch of ignorant fools. If you know anything about these hasids you'd know that it's the women who run the show at home and they're the ones who are pushing for this ultra religious stuff. Walk into B&H and you'll see that these guys are as red blooded as anyone else. Yes the culture is backward and assimilation is taking longer than it would for other groups because they're not plugged into the society (they have no TV's and don't attend public schools.) They're a culture that is struggling with modernity and these things take time to evolve. The hatred you guys are spewing only feeds into their suspicions. Their mindset is very much post progrom, scared out of their minds that they're about to be carted off again in cattle cars to be gassed. Add to that the assault they feel from the modern world encroaching in their lives, and now they have to deal with hipsters all around them, they feel like you're coming for their soul and when you're done you'll burn them at the stake. So,,, if you want to be the change, try to understand and be friendly to them, heck, you might even try smiling at them instead of rolling your eyes. Better yet, befriend them and show them what the 21'st century has to offer.

Litvish, thank you for sharing so personally. You are accepted in the laws of the land. Why do you think that there is this extra ordinary negative attitude towards gays in the Jewish Orthodox community ? I don't consider the same gay experienced we see in the Torah are more rape and power oriented rather than the evolvment to the present where there is gay marriage and long term committment accepted in laws of several states and countries. THis is just myu opinion, I dont' base on any source commentary.
All people who are different in whatever way it is, should not be punished and in that respect the gay community should be proud as many others dont share this same rights.

Litvish, your story and journey is incredible. Thank you so much for sharing it with us. I am sorry you went through so much pain to get where you are. But I am also happy for you that you are in a loving and fulfilling relationship.

It sounds like you have contributed a lot to society and to Jewery. It is too bad that some of your fellow Jews don't see it that way. But there are plenty of us who do.

Yechiel, I grew up Frum. And I find your words and attitudes disgusting.

Read some Chumash. Read about how it instructs you to treat Geirim. And it doesn't mention it once, or twice, but numerous times it talks about being inclusive and making Geirim feel comfortable and at home in your circles.

Now, if Hashem wants Jews to treat Geirim as family and wants us to go out of our way to make them comfortable and feel like a part of us, what do you think he would say about how we should treat other JEWS who just did not grow up with the same flavor of frumkeit as you, or who did not learn how to shukel and shprach as you did because they didn't go to yeshiva?

Oh, and in terms of all those mentally instable or socially inept or otherwise deficient Jews who find their way to frumkeit, become baalei teshuvah, but don't "blend" as you put it. Based upon a simple reading of the Torah and how many times it is instructive of including the "stranger" - that might also cover those who you think are "stranger" than you.

Your attitudes of exclusion and exclusivity are simply disgusting.

Hi, Adams, Abracadabra

Thanks for commenting. I wrote this because I have gone through a lot in my life, cancer, emergency open heart surgery, etc., lost my medical practice three times, and realize that we don't live forever. The only thing, in the end, that really counts in my book is loving ourselves and those we encounter.

Why does anyone practice hate and ill-will? I believe that it stems from ignorance, including ignorance of Torah, but more so from a lack of true love for hashem and ourselves.

I long ago realized that hashem made me as he did and that my job here is to flower and spread love and support for all of us instead of being bitter or stuck in anger. I attempt to do this by going to my office daily and helping people who are truly suffering. They come from all backgrounds. I care for babies a few days old to elderly people who are all alone, very lonely, afraid and suffering. It has really helped me to become a human being and a mentsh.

I also realize that I can love people even if they don't reciprocate. It has been a hard road for me sometimes but I am happy that it is my journey.

My partner in life comes from a very different world. He also has suffered and been ostracized. So I try to support and help him as best as I can. This has helped me to love myself via serving others. It has not been easy for me to love myself many times since I grew up in a large family but still felt alone, afraid of others, and with very low self esteem.

Rov Dov Lesser, zts'l, of Lakewood, the man I earlier wrote about, was my teacher and friend for many years. Unfortunately, I was afraid to talk with him because of the hate that I received from the frum community due to my being gay. However, when I finally did speak with him after a hiatus of over 20 years and told him that I was afraid he would act like the others, he was very blunt.

He told me that the Torah considers homosexuality to be biological. He added that since lesbians are never mentioned that many m'forshim wrote that it is not homosexuality that is condemned but rather anal intercourse which, of course, can also be performed by heterosexual couples. In addition, he told me that I needed to realize that the frume velt had been taken over by what he termed the Jewish Taliban and that it was very different from when he grew up years earlier. He urged me to embrace my life, practice love and acceptance of all people, and to find my own path to hashem. He,too, was terribly hurt by those in his community who attacked and ultimately destroyed him. The last time I saw him he told me, Hershl, life is short. Do what makes you happy.

I never saw him again.

I have a theory why liberal typical Gomthimist's care so much about this story and chasidim in general. Deep down many people are jealous of them. The average chasid has a strong family, a sense of community and a purpose in life, how many of you can say that? Sure the women might have to dress in a way you find strange, but you know what? A woman starving herself, and in the words of Dolly Parton "spending a fortune to look cheap", in an attempt to lure a man is not normal either. It particularly galls that some chasidim have been very successful in business dispite no higher education, such as Blimie and Hymie the husband and wife owner of B and H photo (btw many people will tell you she is the brains of the operation how is that for a successful female in the chasidic world?)". I am sure we can find a whole list of disgruntled ex chasidim as well as Satmar individuals who are criminals or have various picadellos but I understand their have been democratic politicians who steal and cheat on their wives..

Stop yer bitching. It's pointless. The sooner you realize that the hasidem follow their own laws and not the rest of society's the better off you are. Look to Fort Surrender. NY State is afraid of them. I would be too if I didn't already know that they are nothing more than inbred vermin. It's shit like this that just makes you hate them even more.

I have always been proud that I am Jewish, although I don't observe, I maintain my Jewish culture and identity to honor my fallen brothers and sisters over the centuries. My paternal grandparents survived the Holocaust for the sole reason that their son was an American citizen, and my father got them out of Germany before the war.

These people make me ashamed to be Jewish! The insanity of the Haredim and Chasids is beyond my comprehension! I see no mitzvah in living in a fantasy world of medieval Jewry! In real medieval times the Jewish world was one of pogroms, burnings at the stake, massacres and expulsions! Why would anyone want to live in that thought-world?

BTW, a Cuban sandwich is the most unkosher thing I can think of, what with pork, ham, butter, and cheese, but I love them! Also, I married a shiksa! Does that make me a goy? I don't think so! And I'm not afraid to use my name!

Hmmm....why hasn't anyone of these critics mentioned that this sign isn't posted all along Bedford Ave, but on Bedford Ave between Penn St., right next to Pupa shul, which has about 5 wide doors to the shul, and men and bochurim constantly pour out of those doors into the streets, because of all the very frequent minyanim held in this shul. It's one of the most used shuls in Williamsburg, where you can fins a minyan every five minutes at times of the three daily tefilos.

The sidewalk in front of the shul is big, but not huge.

So can you just imagine what it would look like with all those men coming and going - it's just immpossible not to bump into women passing by.

And that is what that sign is meant for - for the cause of the big shul being on that block.

In any case, all these people posting negative remarks here, I think you really have hatred as one issue, but jeaulosy as the second issue, and thirdly, nothing what to do with your time.

I love my new multicolored talit with matching kipa! I have stopped thinking years ago whether or not I've "mainstreamed" There may be a price to pay for independent thinking but I sleep very well at night. The signs in Yiddish may very well be the edge of an envelope being pushed for the intro of men and women on separate sides to the street a' la Chareidi.

Williamsburg Resident- what ever happened to watching where you are going and saying "excuse me"

Watching where you are going ????

Come visit that street and you'll see what I mean.

Of course they have to step aside. Do you ever notice how overweight these guys are?

Litvish,
I knew Rabbi Lesser for many years. He was a pillar in the Lakewood community and fought for yeshivas throughout America. Rabbi Lesser was nifter in 2001, and the Taliban was not a coined phrase at the time. So please do not say R'Dov used such a term refering to his fellow Lakewood community. Also Rabbi Lesser, was not liberal as you are putting it, he was a visionary. He helped build many Kollelim and yeshivos without taking credit. He was not a poskiac, and did not give halachic rulings. He suffered greatly at the end of his life, and unfortunately you are being probably causing his nashama great unrest. He would have cringed to be remembered in such a manner. Please find someone else, preferable living, to give you a heter for you heneous acts. With a heavy heart.

Pretty sexist not something that you would see in North America that's for sure.

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