The Talmud Wasn't Accepted

For several hundred years after the Babylonian Talmud's supposed acceptance by all Jewish communities as binding, its rulings were routinely ignored by rabbis. Why?

A page of the Babylonia Talmud

Lawrence Grossman review's Talyia Fishman's new book, Becoming the People of the Talmud: Oral Torah as Written Tradition in Medieval Jewish Cultures (University of Pennsylvania Press, 424 pages, $65) for the Forward. And he notes the following:

…[Fishman] demonstrates not only that even when written copies existed, the Talmud in Mesopotamian, North African and Iberian Jewish communities of the early Middle Ages was still primarily transmitted by word of mouth, but also that authoritative pronouncements on Jewish law often diverged from that Talmud. It was only in 11th- and 12th-century France and Germany [300 years after the Babylonian Talmud was codified] — the Ashkenazic heartland — that Jews began to experience Talmud “as readers studying a book,” and that book came to be viewed as the paramount guide to practice, a process similar to the shift going on at the same time among non-Jews, as Northern European Christianity moved to a text-based culture from a custom-based one.

The work of the 11th-century French scholar known as Rashi facilitated the treatment of Talmud as one long book by preparing the authoritative running commentary still in use today. The next step, accomplished by several generations of scholars beginning with Rashi’s grandsons — collectively known as the Tosafists — was to identify and seek to reconcile the multiple contradictions in the book, a problem that had rarely surfaced when the Talmud was an oral tradition. By the 13th century, this focus on the intricacies of the written text had spread across the Pyrenees [mountains] to scholars in Spain and then elsewhere, quickly establishing itself as the normative form of Jewish learning.

As the medium transforms the message, two key substantive changes in Judaism wrought by textualization are discussed in “Becoming the People of the Talmud.” Clearly, the newly constituted “text” is more rigid than oral tradition, reducing the flexibility of the religious authority to reinterpret past wisdom in light of new reality in a way that does not disrupt the consciousness of a seamless tradition. Thus, Fishman notes, the Tosafists were often perplexed when they saw that customary religious practices that had evolved naturally differed from those prescribed in the talmudic texts, and so they exerted remarkable casuistic energy in attempts to reconcile them.…

What's interesting here is that if you set the date of the Talmud's 'universal' adoption as a rigid source of Jewish law at the mid-1300s instead of the rabbinic back formation that sets it in the mid-8th century CE, it makes the behavior of so-called questionable Jewish communities like the Beta Israel of Ethiopia and the Bene Israel of India in clearer context.

Many of the binding legal decisions of the talmud these communities supposedly ignored or inexplicably did not know about are thrown into a completely new light when it becomes clear that the Talmud itself wasn't really binding until much later than the rabbis have claimed.

It is also helps demonstrate that rabbis who do not know history and related sciences like archeology can easily make mistakes in judgement, just like rabbi who do not know medical science or physics make errors of judgement.

In both those cases, these rabbis rely on the Talmud as if it existed, pristine and perfect, in a vacuum.

But it does not now and it never did exist in that way.

Perhaps one day, rabbis and their yeshivas will acknowledge that.

Comments

[David]

Modern day Judaism would most likely be unrecognizable to Jews of 1000 years ago (or even less than that). Much of modern Charedi / Chassidic Judaism has been out and out invented by men.

[Rebitzman]

Perhaps they have trouble distinguishing between that which is Halakhic and that which is Aggadic?

[Aleksandr Sigalov]

Talmud had always been an outrageous violation of the Deuteronomy 4:2

Thanks to this book, coutless number of Jews were misled in the Law of Moses and suffered persecution.

Unfortunately, I highly doubt that any of these "rabbis" will ever admit to this. Not gonna happen...

[Jon]

The Romaniote community preferred the Jerusalem Talmud.

[Sam The Man]

This is absurd ... everyone knows that the Talmud was told to Moses on Mount Sinai :P

[Litvish]

Shmarya

It is very helpful for you to offer us these articles on Jewish history. It puts many things in perspective.

[Shlomo]

Most of religion is invented and manipulated by men. If God gave us a brain and ability to think, why would he tell us to blindly believe books written thousands of years ago. He gave us a brain and ability to exercise free will so that we can judge ourselves what is right and wrong, develop and create the best on earth that humans are capable of. Disgusting looking men with long beards and strange hats cannot and will never be leaders of human kind because they say they are.

[Avi]

It seems astonishing that Rashi and his grandsons could have had such a profound influence on the course of Judaism.

[rebeljew]

The Talmud is not a book of halacha. It is the forensic efforts of later Rabbis, commenting on the forensic efforts of earlier Rabbis to reconstruct the actual teachings of the earliest courts. It was written down only because later geenrations feared losing it entirely. Before printing was available, most people would never have seen a written Talmud. It was taught as traditional meme. That is the chaos that the Rambam was trying to tame with his work in the 1160's. Before that, there were vast oceans of difference in how different communities approached halacha and its Talmudic sources. The Talmud rarely claims to come to a consensus on anything. It literally brings all of the arguments so contemporary Rabbis can rule on cases as they see fit with all of the information available.

[rebeljew]

I would also add that all law systems record comprehensively in the same fashion and leave it to contemporary judges to decide. Volumes of US case law fill libraries.

[Avi]

Does anyone have a link to a transation of Iggeret Sherira Gaon?

[Avi]

*translation

[seymour]

The Talmud rarely claims to come to a consensus on anything. It literally brings all of the arguments so contemporary Rabbis can rule on cases as they see fit with all of the information available.

Posted by: rebeljew | October 30, 2011 at 05:23 PM

VERY TRUE

[Betzalel]

This is what really happened: When the Babylonian Talmud was finished, Rav Ashi sent letters out to Jewish communities around the world saying he had published a new book called the Babylonian Talmud.

It then became a best seller in the Jewish world. Every chassan got one as a wedding gift. Of course, all the rabbis accepted it immediately without questioning it.

[mike w]

THe Talmud much resembles a 1500-1800 year old blog. The blogger nasi (the Shmarya of the time) chose a topic, story or issue and the Rabbis went to town on it sometimes using strong language or derogatory arguments against one another much like here. Unfortunately they lacked some of the good humor we often get on FM. More unfortunately they used their power to disenfranchise 50% of our population(the women) and set wheels in motion that would eventually restrict synagogue participation and change the way the genders travel on buses. We are indeed Am Kshei Oref. The holy infallability our bretheren ascribe to these man made texts and the people who wrote them is preposterous.

[R.W.]

Since Fishman's version of events doesn't appear in Artscroll's introduction to the Talmud, it can't be true...

[Abracadabra]

I remember learning that the Mishna and Gemara (Talmud) were not supposed to be written down. The EXCUSE for doing so was, "Eis la'asos la'Hashem heifeiru Torasecha." Does anyone know what the source of this statement is? Or is it just another statement they made up?

And if that quote is a valid enough argument to go against Torah, why can't it be used by rabbis today?

Personally, I'd like them retract making Jews who live outside of Israel keep the second day of Yom Tov. "Because they have been doing it anyway" is not a good enough reason to keep doing it. It brings a lot of pain and hardship to people, especially families that would otherwise get together for Yomim Tovim, but can't manage because it's a 2-day (or like this year - 3-day) Yom Tov. The whole 2nd day of Yom Tov outside of Israel is preposterous. Not to mention how difficult it is for many Orthodox Jews.

And the other thing that needs to be changed is their making chicken Fleishigs (meat). We manage fine with Fish being Parve. So the rabbis need not fear that we'll get confused if chicken turns back to being Parve, as it was for the first 1,000 years after the Torah was given!

It is so frustrating that Chareidim insist on perpetuating the lie that the Talmud was given to Moshe on Har Sinai. Obviously it wasn't, or we would still be eating chicken with a cup of milk as they did back in those days.

[ultra haredi lite]

The Talmud was NOT given at Mt. Sinai. The translation to the Written Torah was. That translation is called the Oral Tradition.
The Talmus is a compendium of conversations, ideas, disagreements and laws - the blog analogy is great, spanning centuries.

[Aleksandr Sigalov]

Only the idea of Oral Tradition is that it stays ORAL !

Otherwise, it overtakes the Law of Moses and becomes the law in itself.

Exactly what we can see now :(

This is very sad.

[Gevezener Chusid]

Abracadabra - what makes YOU keep the second day of holidays if you don't believe it should be a holiday? What makes YOU not eat chicken with dairy products. You want "them" to change the rules... what makes you feel that you need to keep "their" rules?

Just asking

[Steven]

I recently read in a book that I consider to fairly accurate that at one time, the Cairo Jewish community was divided among the followers of the Babylonian Talmud, the followers of the Jerusalem Talmud and the Karaites.

They all lived close to each other, worked for each other and intermarried. Nonetheless, their practices, including their calendars, diverged which sometimes lead to things like celebrating holidays on different days. Kind of cuts against the idea of a monolithic Talmud received at Har Sinai.

And that isn't even getting into a discussion of the accuracy of the Torah as we know it if the 'definitive' copy of it is the Aleppo Codex as reconstructed by Rav Breuer or the Leningrad Codex, both dating to the 10th Century.

[Maskil]

In both those cases, these rabbis rely on the Talmud as if it existed, pristine and perfect, in a vacuum.

No, not "rely" but project that image onto the Talmud, even if it takes a book to "explain" a certain passage in consonance with that community's traditions.

But how is this any different with what we (all Jews of any sort) have done with the Tanach?

We rewrite it verbatum in every generation, anew, with a completely different meaning, backdating it to the beginning of time (or sometime close to that).

[Abracadabra]

Gevezener Chusid - "They" are the rabbis who decide what normative Orthodox halachah is. I follow what "they" say normative Orthodox halachah is, so that I can continue to belong to the club in which I was raised, where all my family is, where my friends are, where my community is. Middle age is not a great time to change all of that. But I don't believe any of it is from God. It's just the laws of the society in which I live - I follow them in order to be a member of society. Humans are social creatures.

I would like the rabbis (who incidently are also human), and who were not appointed by God, but who are mostly self-appointed, inherited their position, or got there through a lot of political maneuvering, to change some of these irrational laws, which have no reasonable basis for having been enacted in the first place, or which no longer apply given the changes in circumstances. That's right - make "Amendments" - the same way they did with the Pruzbul and other things. If there is a rabbinic will, there is a halachic way.

And the very fact that the "oral law" was SUPPOSED to be oral - Torah She'ba'al Peh should not be considered to be set in stone. It was not written down in the Gemara in a way that sets it in stone. It was never intended to be that way. And yet, remarkably, it has become that way. So, let's go back to the days when it was Gemara - nice and confusing - so that rabbis interpret it according to the needs of the current population. That is clearly how it started, and how it continued, until a few hundred years ago with the "Shulchan Aruch". Oh, and the "Mishnah Brurah" that everyone loves to quote from, was written not even 100 years ago. Somehow, Judaism survived before the Chafetz Chaim penned that nice little book. How? By rabbis adopting the law to their kehilos. It's time to get back to doing things like they did in the "good ol' days". But, it will never be. Not unless they make me the Gadol Hador. And that possibility is about as likely as flying pigs being kosher.

[Adam Neira]

I have read most of the Talmud. The quality of the commentary ranges from excellent and incisive to barbaric and ridiculous. The Tanach is the primary text however, and especially the Pentateuch. This does not make me a Karaite, but many people have used their supposed knowledge of texts like the Talmud and Zohar to bamboozle people. You can basically rationalize virtually any behaviour plucking out selective bits of various texts.

I'm happy to explain what the the various weightings of the Tanach should be. In the right setting of course.

[Reality Check Required]

There is nothing revolutionary about this - even according to the orthodox tradition. The Talmud only became an authoritative text in the absence of the academies of Sura and Pumpeditha - which closed approximately two hundred years before Rashi, which is when the first running commentaries of the Talmud began to emerge - Ri Migash, R Chananel and R Gershom.

[Shmarya]

Posted by: Reality Check Required | October 31, 2011 at 03:06 AM

Really?

Perhaps you could explain to all of the difference between Fishman's point – which is that the Talmud only became 'universal' hundreds of years *after* Sura and the other Babylonian academies closed – and your point that it became 'universal' *when* those academies closed.

And when you're done with that, please explain the rabbinic tradition that the Talmud was adopted as authoritative by every Jewish community in the world a couple hundred years *before* that.

A less arrogant person than you might notice that the stated rabbinic position does not agree with the evidence Fishman uncovered. He might also notice that evidence does *not* support your claim.

Yes, there is no question a reality check is needed.

Unfortunately, you're the one who needs it and I'm willing to bet you're they type of person who will never allow one.

[just saying]

I'm surprised by the positive review given her close relationship with Chabad. I thought that was verboten on this blog.

[shlimel]

Lawrence Grossman writes: "Perhaps one day, rabbis and their yeshivas will acknowledge that"

You are an apikoras!

[oh really]

Yosef be Matitya where are your comments now on "minus" and "what's against G-D"? (I guess there is no agenda here.)

[pierre]

Steven @10:54; do you remember the book you'd read this from, anything about it to help me track down this argument?

[Yochanan Lavie]

Abra: You are 100% correct. I could only keep one day of Yomtov this year because of extreme pressure at work.

[Chicago Sam]

If chicken were pareve, it would reduce the cost of Kashrut dramatically. Interesting idea.

Second day Yom Tov? A financial hardship for any generation.

Besides, we now have a calendar. DUhhhh...

[Steven]

@Pierre

The book is Sacred Trash: The Lost and Found World of Cairo Ganiza by Adina Hoffman and Peter Cole. http://amzn.to/sAJEDT

The book is partly about the race among Solomon Schechter and other scholars to find the source of old Jewish (and Christian) documents trickling out of the Middle East in the late 19th Century which ultimate led to Schechter packing up the Cairo Geniza and shipping it to Cambridge.

Part of the book relates to religious practice as documented in Cairo and alluded to in writings there such as the discovery of the Ben Sira text and documents in Maimonides hand.

Part of the book describes every day life in Cairo from the Ninth Century onwards because the Cairo Jews put anything with Hebrew letters (including Aramaic, etc) in the Geniza, not just holy documents.

[Alteh Mirrer]

I don't understand the anger in these comments. Frum people don't tend to think of the history of the development of the Talmud for whatever reason, but if they would, it would be undeniable that tradition trumped Talmud for a period of time after the Talmud was written.
I am frum and I think this is a very interesting topic, and I kind of hope that a library near me will get the book, since I can't pay $65 for it. Either way though, it is no more inconvenient for me than the idea that the EPA may have been considered unconstitutional by the standards of 1940.

[PishPosh]

Even up to the Middle ages, Tefillin was not universally accepted by all Jews and not just Karaites. I think it was when the Rabbanut began to push these ideas down on the heads of Jews that the Karaites said "Hold on one second, dont try and push a metaphor as though it was literal, or should we circumcise your hearts right now, get the scalpels.
The Karaites I believe had the advantage in numbers while in Europe dissidents had to go along or suffer serious retaliation.
Then there is the Rav I heard of who agreed that the Teffilin concept as done today is hokum, but because this is the decree of the sages we have to play along even if we believe in a metaphorical approach.

[S.]

"Since Fishman's version of events doesn't appear in Artscroll's introduction to the Talmud, it can't be true..."

Since Artscroll has declined to publish an introduction to the Talmud . . .

[pierre]

THANKS steve...I pass over many of these books without a thought...

[Alteh Mirrer]

PishPosh - Tefillin as we know them might be not be exactly what the verses say, but they go back at least to the second temple. All of halacha that we keep today was interpreted at some point between 3000 years ago and today. Have you ever examined the way the gemara tries to source all of hilchos Shabbos in the mishkan? The point of observance is that at some point, you do what the religion currently mandates, even if Moses didn't do it exactly this way.
Watching frummie haters find conflicting traditions reminds me of Rabbi Miller's books delighting in a couple debunked fossils.

[Aleksandr Sigalov]

Have you ever examined the way the gemara tries to source all of hilchos Shabbos in the mishkan?

I have. And I can tell you that this is one of many ridiculous inferences that Talmud is famous for.

Also, the Law of Moses is not a religion. Just so you know...

[evf]

Hogwash. the communities that were cut off from the transmission of eretz yisroel and bavel had their independent mesorah from their rabbis. Everyone else accepted the authority of the closing of the Talmud. After that period their were the rabonim saverai and the geonim. They all ruled based on the talmud but they spent their time ruling on questions recieved from the diaspora. From the time of rashi he started the practice of focusing on studying the talmud just to understand its reasoning and not to rule on cases. Any rabbi could explain this to you, and quote to you the sources . But I guess you perfer to get your "knowledge " from some professor's half baked hypothesis. That seems too be your general modus operandi.

[Mike]

Abra I am also with you on the 2 day Yom Tov - today we don't light bonfires to signal what day Rosh Chodesh is and with calendars, atomic clocks etc. we are certain of the calendar - but because Rabbis never want to change anything, or rather remove anything, Jews outside of Israel must suffer for something that makes absolutely no sense - take another vacation day or simply not be able to go for a nice drive with the family, beach or whatever - just be stuck at home for 3 days (like this year) and have endless meals and Synagogue - no wonder people are so turned off religion!

[Shmarya]

But I guess you perfer to get your "knowledge " from some professor's half baked hypothesis. That seems too be your general modus operandi.

Posted by: evf | November 01, 2011 at 01:10 AM

Please.

The professor in question is smarter than you and far more intellectually honest than you or than the rabbis you follow.

[masortiman]

I was told way back in the 1980s that the process of acceptance of rabbinic Judaism over sadduccean judaism was longer and slower than some sources (such as Josephus) indicated - and that the effloressence of (rabbinic) jewish philosophy in the Gaonic period was largely about persuading the Jewish world toward the rabbinic position. I was told that by a JTSA student. Thats not QUITE the same position as this, AFAICT, but I think its consistent.

I was also told in the same period that the preeminence of the Bavli over the Yerushalmi was relatively recent. I was told THAT by a student at HUC-JIR.

Some Yeshivas are attempting to teach the full historical context of the Talmud. Now if only we would consider them Yeshivas.

[masortiman]

BTW, Ms Fishman's MA is from JTSA.

[masortiman]

this is interesting:

"Thus, Fishman notes, the Tosafists were often perplexed when they saw that customary religious practices that had evolved naturally differed from those prescribed in the talmudic texts, and so they exerted remarkable casuistic energy in attempts to reconcile them. But at the same time, the very availability of an authoritative book — especially with Rashi’s commentary appended — could make the presence of a live teacher unnecessary, and hence served to democratize Jewish scholarship."

The textualization of the talmud was thus, though a late phenomenon, not necessarily a NEGATIVE phenomenon. Instead of deferring to a gadol, any literate, somewhat learned Jew, could go to the text itself. The real lesson here is to use Jewish religious learning as a tool for democratization, and to oppose the idolization of certain individuals.

Also that the reconciliation of the actual organic life of the people with the text, is, far from being something recent or illegitimate, a fundamental act of rabbinic Judaism.

[Aleksandr Sigalov]

I was thinking ...

Its very ironic that OJ is following "Babylonian Talmud"

If one to translate "Babylonian Talmud" from Hebrew, one would get "Confusing Instruction" or "Confused Learning" ...

HAHA ;)

[nobody]

The article ignores that there were differences between Talmud Yerushalmi and Talmud Bavli, and different communities followed different traditions (some communities more rooted in yerushalmi, or even entirely so until Bavli Jews came and influenced them, and vice versa). This actually explains some of the Tosafists' astonishment at divergent practices. They are sometimes "shocked" to find that the practice diverges from Talmud Bavli, but in reality, sometimes the practice in question is a preserved tradition of the Talmud Yerushalmi that was carried with the Jews to France (from Italy via Eretz Yisrael, or from Eretz Yisrael, etc).

[evf]

Shmayra you don't know me and I don't know the professor so I'm not going to get into the argument over who is smarter. It doesn't really matter anyway. The point is you have the opinions of generations of rabbis who spent their WHOLE LIFE studying the talmud starting back over a thousand years. And then you have the opinion of a professor who is trying to paint a picture from some ancient records. Who do you think has truer knowledge.
And about "intellectually honest " are these professors more intellectually honest then the global warming scientists or less?

[Shmarya]

Posted by: evf | November 02, 2011 at 12:49 AM

Please.

First of all, there is no question that Professor Fishman is smarter than you. Just ask anyone with better than a high school education to read your comments and you'll get that confirmation.

Past that extremely obvious, you confuse pilpul and related hair splitting with actual study – something your rabbis almost never do and are terrified of.

What your rabbis do is create justifications for their preconceived beliefs, not look at he data with open minds and see where it leads.

Real academic research destroys much of what your rabbis choose to believe, which is why they are so afraid of it.

I could go on to explain peer reviewed science to you but it seems clear from your comments that you lack the intellectual capacity to understand it.

So on a very simple level, process this: climate change is real. The data, the fact, the science are irrefutable.

That you are too ill-educated to understand that science, or even the scientific process, doesn't make that scientific process false – it makes you ignorant.

And for that ignorance, you can thank the rabbis you worship.

[Abracadabra]

Mike - Yep! You said it like it is.

[masortiman]

The institution from which Ms Fishman received her Masters, Jewish Theological Seminary of America, values BOTH the tradition of pil pul to determine points of Jewish law, AND the use of scientific method to understand Jewish history, including the history of our holy texts. That scientific tradition applied to Judaism is called Wissenshaft des Judentums, or the scientific study of Judaism, and is itself a tradition that goes back close to 200 years now. One of the first great academic centers of it was the original Jewish Theological Seminary in Breslau, whose name and tradition JTSA in NY carries on. The Jewish studies departments at secular univerities (like Harvard where Ms Fishman got her Phd and Penn where she teaches) also carry forward that tradition. I believe that many of those departments were influenced by JTSA when they were founded, but I am not entirely certain.

[Steven]

@ Masortiman

I am not an expert on the various Jewish studies departments at American universities but when Solomon Schechter was chancellor of JTSA, he was also one of the editors of "The Jewish Quarterly Review" which was published by the Dropsie College for Hebrew and Cognate Learning in Philadelphia.

To make a long story short, Dropsie is now the Center for Advanced Judaic Studies at the University of Pennsylvania which continues to publish the Jewish Quarterly Review.

[evf]

So you are still believing in man made global warming. When all their backers have started changing its name to climate change. I also wonder what hair splitting you use to explain the emails from the climate research unit at the univaersity of east anglia. Shmarya your belief in the irrefutability and untainted honesty of all scientists and professor's is almost like a religious belief!!!

[Jeff]

So you are still believing in man made global warming.

Posted by: evf | November 02, 2011 at 11:00 PM

And you're still believing what your rebbe and your conservative talking heads tell you.

[Shmarya]

Posted by: evf | November 02, 2011 at 11:00 PM

You're so ill-educated that you don't even realize how foolish you are.

I have bad news for you, evf. Rush Limbaugh is liar and he uses the lies he tells to get rich off naive fools like you.

[evf]

Typical Typical. Since you can't explain any of the points I raised -emails showing how they were falsifing the data and that they changed its name to hide that they were wrong about the warming - you just go on the attack. Very enlightened of you shmarya

[Shmarya]

Typical Typical. Since you can't explain any of the points I raised -emails showing how they were falsifing the data and that they changed its name to hide that they were wrong about the warming - you just go on the attack. Very enlightened of you shmarya

Posted by: evf | November 03, 2011 at 08:37 AM

Look, you're clearly not very well informed.

You don't understand the scientific process.

And you seem to think Rush Limbaugh is valid news source.

You think you're being clever.

But what you're really doing is showing almost everyone how uneducated you are.

[evf]

Jeez do you have any points to make cause i really don't understand your response. And what does rush have to do with what i said? Please respond with some facts - If you have any!!

[PishPosh]

http://www.amazon.com/Battle-Two-Talmuds-Judaisms-Struggle/dp/1569804397/ref=sr_1_fkmr2_1?ie=UTF8&qid=1324689024&sr=8-1-fkmr2

Battle of the Two Talmuds also goes into how we were scammed into making the Yerushalmi an almost Apocryphal writing. I didnt know till late in Yeshivah life that their was a Yerushalmi.