Haredi Man Pleads Guilty To Selling Black Market Kidneys

Levy Izhak Rosenbaum pleaded guilty in federal court in Trenton to brokering three illegal kidney transplants for New Jersey-based customers in exchange for payments of $120,000 or more. He also pleaded guilty to one count of conspiracy to broker an illegal kidney sale.

 

Levy Izhak Rosenbaum Pleads Guilty To Selling Black Market Kidneys
SAMANTHA HENRY and DAVID PORTER • AP

TRENTON, N.J. — A New York man pleaded guilty Thursday to brokering the sale of black-market organs in what prosecutors said was the first ever federal conviction for illegally selling human kidneys for profit.

Levy Izhak Rosenbaum pleaded guilty in federal court in Trenton to brokering three illegal kidney transplants for New Jersey-based customers in exchange for payments of $120,000 or more. He also pleaded guilty to one count of conspiracy to broker an illegal kidney sale.

Each of the four counts carries a maximum five-year prison sentence plus a fine of up to $250,000. Rosenbaum also agreed to forfeit $420,000 in real or personal property that was derived from the illegal kidney sales.

Prosecutors say Rosenbaum would buy organs from vulnerable people in Israel for $10,000 and sell them to desperate patients.

Rosenbaum, 60, of Brooklyn, was arrested in July 2009 in New Jersey's largest ever corruption sting. Though he was one of more than 40 people arrested, including politicians and rabbis in New Jersey and Brooklyn, and was not a rabbi himself, the image of rabbis illegally selling kidneys garnered international headlines and made its way into the routines of late-night comedians for weeks afterward.

Rosenbaum was arrested after he tried to set up a kidney sale to a man posing as a crooked businessman but who actually was government informant Solomon Dwek, a disgraced real estate speculator facing prison time for a $50 million bank fraud.

Dwek brought Rosenbaum an undercover FBI agent posing as his secretary, who claimed to be searching for a kidney for a sick uncle on dialysis who was on a transplant list at a Philadelphia hospital.

"I am what you call a matchmaker," Rosenbaum said in a secretly recorded conversation. "I bring a guy what I believe, he's suitable for your uncle."

Asked how many organs he had brokered, he said: "Quite a lot," the most recent two weeks earlier.

Prosecutors said as part of the scheme, the organ donors were brought from Israel to the U.S., where they underwent surgery to remove the kidneys. They did not identify which hospitals in the U.S. received the donors and their kidneys.

A message left Thursday for Rosenbaum's attorney, Richard Finkel, was not immediately returned.

Art Caplan, the director of the Center for Bioethics at the University of Pennsylvania and a co-chairman of a United Nations task force on organ trafficking said that internationally, about one-quarter of all kidneys appear to be trafficked, but Rosenbaum's case was the first proven instance of illegal organ trafficking in the United States.

"What this man has pleaded guilty to is one of the most ethically heinous and despicable things you can do to another person," Caplan said. "Moving desperately poor people under false pretentions from one country to another, and treating them as portable organ farms that you mine for the rich, not only compromises their health, it degrades their basic human dignity."

Under 1984 federal law, it is illegal for anyone to knowingly buy or sell organs for transplant. The practice is illegal just about everywhere else in the world, too.

But demand for kidneys far outstrips the supply, with 4,540 people dying in the U.S. last year while waiting for a kidney, according to the United Network for Organ Sharing. As a result, there is a thriving black market for kidneys around the world.

DOJ Press Release As A PDF:

Download Rosenbaum, Levy Izhak Plea PR

Plea Information As A PDF:

Download Rosenbaum, Levy Izhak Information

[Hat Tip: Joel Katz.]

Comments

[WoolSilkCotton]

++"What this man has pleaded guilty to is one of the most ethically heinous and despicable things you can do to another person"++

Yes indeed, proof positive that he is a frummer.

[OMG]

Where are all the nay choir, if memory serves me right, after the arrest, there were thunders explanation for his misdeeds.

[jancsipista.]

the frummies look at the world as dog eats dog
its me me and more me and to heck with anyone not like me this is their motto, and money or gelt ubber toireh

[Aaron]

"Moving desperately poor people under false pretentions from one country to another"

What false "pretentions" were there? As much as I agree that doing what he did for profit is a horrible thing, the concept doesn't strike me as heinous.

Some people really need money, others really need an organ. Why should they not be allowed to trade?

[seymour]

Where are all the nay choir, if memory serves me right, after the arrest, there were thunders explanation for his misdeeds.

Posted by: OMG | October 27, 2011 at 03:24 PM

do not worry, it will come

he was only doing it to help other yiddin live longer he was saving life and also giving money to some poor souls

Trenton, NJ - Lawyers for a New York man who pleaded guilty Thursday in the first ever federal conviction for illegal organ trafficking say their client performed life-saving services for severely ill people.

[WoolSilkCotton]

Aaron, it's been discussed at great length in many medical ethics conferences and articles.

[Aaron]

Aaron, it's been discussed at great length in many medical ethics conferences and articles.

Posted by: WoolSilkCotton | October 27, 2011 at 03:35 PM

I understand. I also understand that most medical ethics are subjective, and I am allowed to disagree. I was just stating my opinion the the form of a question.

[David]

Kosher meat.

[David]

Given that the frumma refuse to donate organs, although are quite happy to accept organs from non-Jews, does anyone know if these kidneys came from Jews or non-Jews?

[corn popper]

he's NOT a rabbi?

[anuran]

It's only a hop and a step to killing people for their organs. Undoubtedly the most fucked up thing I have heard all week.

[WoolSilkCotton]

Aaron, while I can understand different viewpoints on the topic, a few things stand out to me:

Every case ends up being a very poor person selling to an 'agent' who then sells it at an outrageous profit to the desperate recipient.
Is this just the capitalist system at its grittiest? Or human greed taking advantage of desperation? Both?
At what point should some authority step in?

Every viewpoint in favor of trafficking is from some cynical author who shows no concern for the ethics or dictates of conscience, and only justifies it in terms of the marketplace.

Granted, the opposite viewpoint is sometimes a bit too lofty.

I have yet to read a viewpoint from any ultra-orthodox Jewish source that said there was anything the least bit unethical about the practice, and that is what I find most troubling.
We don't even have a 'Torah' opinion that there's anything wrong with organ trafficking. Aaron, isn't that a bit troubling? Is the Torah nowadays only about what makes the most profit?

[seymour]

Posted by: OMG | October 27, 2011 at 03:24 PM

pleases go to vin

he is being extolled as a great man who saved many lives

[seymour]

Posted by: WoolSilkCotton | October 27, 2011 at 04:07 PM

since I assume you are in the know

is it true most of the time the seller does not receive even remote medical care and suffer greatly and in many cases die?

their logic on vin I guess

but if the person is a goy and the buyer a yid that is ok I assume

that is their rational at the end

[Isa]

In China
Condemned prisoners have their organs harvested after they get the one bullet in the back of the head

[WoolSilkCotton]

http://www.nejm.org/doi/full/10.1056/NEJMp0804161

Nuran, it's already being done. Look no further than the metro NY/NJ area.

My hospital stopped it a few years ago because most doctors and nurses refused to participate.

The patient, still alive by all medical and legal criteria, was brought to the Operating Room and an operation was done to enter the femoral artery and vein to connect the patient to a cardiopulmonary bypass machine. This surgery was done for no benefit to that living patient. The ventilator was then disconnected and the heart monitor was turned off, a doctor who went along with the program pronounced the patient dead, with everyone standing there watching. The organs were then removed. Since the bypass machine was on, the organs were being perfused and preserved. Was the patient really dead? The monitor was off, so who knew.

[Norm]

Its the frumma using gentels for spare parts.

[Gevezener Chusid]

If people are so poor that they need to sell their body parts in order to survive, then there is something much more morally and ethically wrong with the system they are living in than selling organs.

But I too do not understand why it should be illegal. Probably because when it is done under the table the big shots who make significant profits off of the deals aren't getting their "fair" share.

Most laws, it seems, are constructed to favor the rich and their property "rights". I doubt whether the laws forbidding poor people from selling organs are in place to protect the poor.

[Aaron]

WSC, I completely agree that the process in the instant case was clearly unethical, abhorrent, atrocious, etc., and I expressed that in my original post here. However, without the capitalism involved, I personally do not feel that it is wrong.

[WoolSilkCotton]

Seymour, our hospital will only use organs from The NJ Sharing Network, so that we know exactly who and where the donor patient was.

[ruthie]

well, if g-d forbid i needed a kidney...and had the money...i would certainly pay for it.
on the other hand, i would NEVER have any operation done. diet and eastern medicine for me.

[BibleBeltJew]

Is there a greater rasha than this Dwek POS? What a black-hearted, self-serving monster he is.

Oh, and to those of you who feel you have the 'right' to tell Israel how to act from the comfort of your LI/Teaneck/Monsey homes, and that same 'right' extends to dictating what a caring, desperate family member can do to save the life of a dying loved one, spare me your hyperbolic whinings.

[WoolSilkCotton]

Gevezener, I don't follow what you're saying.

Under our current system, who is making all those big profits you speak of?

The doctors charge for the operation, not the organ itself.
The surgeon doing a kidney transplant gets about $1800. For a pancreas, about $2500, for a heart about $10,000. That fee includes all postoperative care, which involves a lot of sleepless nights for the doctors.

How does that compare to the traffickers?

The Sharing Network is a non-profit organization. They do not charge for the recipient for the organ, nor do they pay the donor's family.

[WoolSilkCotton]

BibleBelt, when you buy a kidney from Rosenbaum, what is your assurance of its source and quality?

It's like buying a ticket off a scalper.

[Waiting4Moshiach]

Nebech, what did he do so wrong? If I can give to a friend why not sell to a stranger? and since someone has to be the broker, why not a Yid? Do we punish people for helping buy and sell houses when he gets a share? Oh I forgot when the goyim do this and call themselves "realtors" it is okay!
Yidden this is all part of a big thing to make us look bad.

[MM]

"...a man posing as a crooked businessman"--Dwek IS a crooked businessman, no posing needed.

It isn't clear in the article, but surely there are ethical problems with the US doctors/hospitals involved in harvesting the kidneys. Either they knowingly participated in the illegal trafficking of organs, possibly (probably?) receiving compensation under the table, or the kidney broker concocted some false tale about these people making ethical, altruistic decisions to donate their kidneys in order to have the surgery performed. I wouldn't be surprised if these black market organ brokers stiffed the poor donors after the fact when there would be nothing they could do about it.

[Rebitzman]

Nebech, what did he do so wrong?

Yes - selling organs is illegal. Allowing those with money to jump up the transplant line is immoral.

And if Shmarya isn't paying to you being a shining example of all that is wrong with the ultra-Orthodox, he should start doing so now. Your positions all over this board over the past few minutes are utterly unbelievable.

As in, I don't believe them, and think you are just posting to draw fire.

No one - NO one is as ignorant and insensitive as you pretend to be.

[Rebitzman]

Clarifying my comments. I do think "waiting4Moshach" is a troll. I do not think Shmarya put him up to being a troll.

It's a credit to this board that all voices - even vulgar ones - are allowed. Not just "one side".

[seymour]

Posted by: Rebitzman | October 27, 2011 at 05:38 PM

maybe you have not met enough frum people

there are many who think like him

[seymour]

Seymour, our hospital will only use organs from The NJ Sharing Network, so that we know exactly who and where the donor patient was.

Posted by: WoolSilkCotton | October 27, 2011 at 04:34 PM

that is the way it should be, my problem with the people who say on this board UI will pay

really are so self centered they do not care what happens or ask about the kidney in any cases it is a simply a death sentence you are living because someone else killed someone

t

[Litvish]

The header says Selling Black Marker Kidneys but the article says:

sale of black-MARKET organs.

What are black market kidneys?

[Litvish]

and also, what are black marker kidneys?

------

Is there any difference between a black marker vs. a black market kidney and will I get a markdown on price if I get one over the other?

[seymour]

BibleBelt, when you buy a kidney from Rosenbaum, what is your assurance of its source and quality?

It's like buying a ticket off a scalper.

Posted by: WoolSilkCotton | October 27, 2011 at 04:49 PM

also of concern should be the seller are they getting good medical care, where they coerced and so on

the frum do not have such a moral compass if the other is not a yid. They simply do not give a damn.

interestingly, it is the people who are the against donating organ when they die the frum who are the one who are the most willing to take organs with question to its source and how it was obtained

I signed a donor card but would not want to take one from a desperate poor seller and I assiume most donors feel the same

just goes to show you the frum have no morals unless it helps them

[WoolSilkCotton]

Seymour, it amazes me to read on VIN how so many frumma see no problem with organ trafficking.
Very few there raise any possibility of an ethical problem with it. There is almost no moral concern about the issue to be found there.

The frumma community really has become like Sodom of biblical times. There are not 10 ethical or moral people to be found on VIN.

[WoolSilkCotton]

The frumma are spreading more diseases, what a surprise:

http://www.vosizneias.com/93591/2011/10/27/
brooklyn-ny-nyc-hd-investigating-outbreak-of-
shigella-infection-in-williamsburg-and-borough-park

[WoolSilkCotton]

Silly me, thinking that the Torah gives an ethical and moral foundation to your mindset.

[Fleishike Kishke]

Are there any STATS as to what percent of Jews the frumma comprise vs. the ratio of overall Jewish crime?

How many Jews are there?
How many frumma?
How much Jewish crime?
How much committed by Frumma?

It might be time to close down the Yeshivas. Mendel Melekh Lubavitch Hai Vikayom.

[Kidney donor]

Just to establish a modicum of credibility on this subject matter (of course it's still just my opinion), I donated my left kidney altruistically (to a stranger through the Renewal organization). Though I would feel ashamed had I received payment for a kidney, I don't believe that it's unethical, rather merely low class. Ironically, I would have ZERO issue to broker a kidney (if it were legal). Logistics are complicated and take hours and hours of time. Hence, compensation for broker's time. What's so complicated about that? People complain that frummies lack initiative to work and produce, this guy, albeit illegally, created a service that saved lives, and apparently had a good work ethic. Why not?

I will take it a step further. I believe it's unethical to make it illegal to exchange money for it. Why should a patient suffer with kidney disease when there is a person willing to part with a kidney for an amount of money that the patient is glad to pay? Is the money blackmail? Of course not. If he wouldn't receive money he would never donate it, unless he's part of the 0.00000001% that donate kidneys for the mitzvah. Hence, it isn't a bargaining chip, rather just incentivizing a person to do something that he otherwise wouldn't.

Not to mention, I actually met a kidney broker while visiting a patient (he made it seem that he was a saint doing it as a mitzvah, but a close friend of the patient whispered into my ear that he was being well paid, as well as the donor) in the hospital, he was Roman Catholic! So, this isn't a Jewish issue...

[Kidney donor]

Rebitzman and others seem not to get how kidney transplantation works. There is no "line" to receive kidneys from living donors. There is a line of patients that is of cadavers, meaning people who die, and the kidney is in decent condition... So, when one is waiting in line for a cadaver kidney, money doesn't facilitate an expidited process. It's first come first serve pretty much.

But, when you are dealing with LIVING people that donate kidneys, they can give it to anybody and there is nothing morally reprehensible about that. For example when you have needy people in your community, do you choose the beneficiary of your charity based on who was neediest for the longest period of time? No! Whichever needy person's story moves you, you donate to!

[Sol]

I'm not attempting to justify any wrong or crooked deals. But it pisses me off how the feds used this sweet talking Dweck as a human glue trap to target the jewish community. It just angers me to no end. The Torah states "Lifnay Iver Lo Sitain Michchol= To the blind do not set a trap so he falls= In plain simple English "Entrapment"

[ah-pee-chorus]

I have no moral or ethical problem with the selling of kidneys provided the seller is completely aware of both the potential danger, as well as the true value of his kidney. i also dont have a problem with a facillitator being paid to arrange it all.
why should govt. tell free people what actions may be engaged in by informed , consenting adults? many peoples lives could be saved if it were legal and properly regulated.
what i DO have a problem with is when sellers are taken advantage of. if a broker knows he has a buyer willing to spend $150,000 and then keeps $140,000 while paying the donor/seller only $10,000, that is repugnant. i would want full disclosure as a requirement.
anyway, being that it is currently illegal, one must follow the law.

[Steven]

And I thought a hareidi was selling black kidney beans from the market.

[Kidney Donor]

ah-pee-chorus: That is a financial issue to be settled in civil court if the sellers (donors) feel that they were fleeced, yet why should it be a criminal matter? We can export jobs of Americans to China, yet importing foreigners kidneys TO SAVE LIVES (yes I'm aware of the capitalist element) is a crime??!!

[ah-pee-chorus]

Kidney Donor -

i didnt say anything about wanting it to be a crime. i want it legalized and regulated. i said it currently IS a crime, like drugs and prostitution which should also be legal.

[WoolSilkCotton]

Kidney donor, APC, if there was some mechanism in place to prevent predatory practices by such brokers, and assuring the truthfulness and legitimacy for both parties involved, I could see going along with legalizing it.
We see surrogate mothers who are paid to carry a pregnancy, egg donors who undergo a surgical procedure to retrieve the eggs, etc., all of these being medical procedures with real risk that people are willing to take, legally, for money.

Since organ brokering is illegal, and strongly frowned upon by the legitimate medical community, I see no redeeming value in what this guy was doing. It's illegal and it's predatory, period.

[Dr. Dave]

BibleBelt, when you buy a kidney from Rosenbaum, what is your assurance of its source and quality?

I think you are all missing the big picture. The chareidim will need to add another middleman - The Mashgiach!!!

Can't wait till the Badatz and OU etc. forbid accepting a kidney that hasn't been under their supervision!

[ah-pee-chorus]

WoolSilkCotton -

i agree with you totally regarding this case. i didnt mean to imply that rosenbaum is a good guy doing a good thing. since it IS illegal, he was able to take advantage and get rich. he's a greedy pig who should be punished. i was just talking about what i'd like to see in the future.

[OMG]

Posted by: seymour | October 27, 2011 at 04:13 PM

I looked at VIN, hilarious, how they could find something good in a evil for profit undertaking, as long it is another Charedi. Logic and humanity will not help them understand, how vile it is to take monetary advantage from a dying person. So I decided not even to engage them.

[OMG]

The frumma community really has become like Sodom of biblical times. There are not 10 ethical or moral people to be found on VIN.
Posted by: WoolSilkCotton | October 27, 2011 at 06:37 PM

How true.

[adams]

It's surprising that people would deal with a drek like Dwek, I mean knowing someone is crooked don't you step back and asses the situation? But you see, when you are so far removed from your true self, you see how it works.

[Rebitzman]

Kidney doner

Thank you for your donation, and to an extent you are right - one CAN donate to a specific individual, but.......

.....the majority of those who die don't have a family donor, and are on a list waiting go a donor match.......1st come, 1st served.

Unless of course, you have cash..........

[OMG]

I am not sure if I should take you at your word, that indeed you gave a total stranger one of your kidneys, which if true, is something I applaud you.

Nevertheless, I need to comment on the rest of your views. You go on to say in part, however, dealing in organs, might be low class, which you will never partake but for sure, you do not understand why it is illegal. Then you question why we complain when this Chasid showed his good work ethic. Therefore, in your mind it is ok for a Chasid to engage in low class activity and mind you under current law illegal as long it creative. This view does not compeer, with the altruistic organ donor you declare to be.

From being an altruistic organ donor, all of sudden, you see immorality in banning the sale of organs, you sound like a good capitalist who want to see open organ markets. You see yourself as the Mother Teresa of organ open-outcry pit. Subsequently, you descend even further, you know of someone who was Roman Catholic getting compensation for finding organ donors. This whole part of the story does not make any sense. How did you find out he was Roman Catholic, did he discuss with you the different christen views? I do not think so.

The truth is, that if a person deals in organs, for profit, he is low-life and under current law a criminal. The fact that this guy made 420K profit, which the government made him forfeit, tells me he was a lowlife criminal. You are right on one point, organ trafficking is not a Jewish problem. It is a problem whoever deals with the intent to make a profit. In this case, a Chasid was apprehended and you only try to make some type of an excuse. Therefore, I do not believe that you ever gave a total stranger one of your kidneys.

[OMG]

I'm not attempting to justify any wrong or crooked deals. But it pisses me off how the feds used this sweet talking Dweck as a human glue trap to target the jewish community. It just angers me to no end. The Torah states "Lifnay Iver Lo Sitain Michchol= To the blind do not set a trap so he falls= In plain simple English "Entrapment"
Posted by: Sol | October 27, 2011 at 08:10 PM

This case is no entrapment, this criminal admitted to making 420K in previous deals, so spar me the crocodile tears.

[Kidney Donor]

OMG, yes I have donated to a stranger. I did it for the Mitzvah, as I have undergone several other surgeries, so I wasn't very fazed by surgery. It was selfish in a sense, because the act of giving life made me feel good about it. Also, there's no problem with living a perfectly healthly life with one kidney as a person has 2 kidneys which have 250% of the necessary function, so give 1 away and you're still left with more than enough function. This is not to mention that when kidney disease strikes, it ALWAYS strikes both at once...
About the statement of asking for money being low class, I didn't mean low character. I meant that just as though when I give a ride and go 2 miles out of the way for him it would be low class to ask him to pay the 25 cents of extra fuel. You can have a great work ethic and earn an honest living, yet have a low class job, such as a janitor.
I'm involved in chaplaincy at a local hospital, and 1 of the patients I recently visited was recuperating from a kidney transplant. When I came by, the "broker" was there, as well as several good friends of the patient. We chatted for 10 minutes and I spoke to the "broker" alone for several minutes, as well. During that time, he introduced himself as "a matchmaker, doing it for the good deed," and he told me that although he's Roman Catholic, he loves the Jewish community. When he heard the plight of the [Jewish] patient, he was driven to help him. Later, a friend of the patient tapped me on the shoulder and whispered that the big bucks he was paid to find a donor helped "drive" him to help.

[seymour]

osted by: Sol | October 27, 2011 at 08:10 PM

you really have no clue of the meaning of entrapment

catching someone through a guy like Dwerk who was already doing the illegal activity is not entrapment.

entrapment would be if the government send a guy to me ( assuming I am honest and not a criminal, not say that is the case) and enticing me to partake in some criminal activity that i never did and never have shown any interest in doing.

In the frumma cases all on then where already doing those crimes before dwerck arrived

[OMG]

Posted by: Kidney Donor | October 27, 2011 at 11:18 PM

Again, I hear you, but as I said earlier, your views and actions are on polar-ends, of our society's vision. There is no way I could reconcile your views with donating a kidney to a person who did not pay to you. It seems that nonchalantly you do not have an issue with this person dealing in organs while it is illegal. The only way I might reconcile you, is that, because, this person is Charedi like you, therefore you will twist yourself into a pretzel, to justify somewhat this criminal, lowlife behavior. Moreover, your story is somewhat suspect.

[anuran]

ruthie writes:
on the other hand, i would NEVER have any operation done. diet and eastern medicine for me.

Then you will almost certainly die from your beliefs unless you happen to be hit by a car.

It really is that simple.

[anuran]

Gevezener Chusid
But I too do not understand why it should be illegal. Probably because when it is done under the table the big shots who make significant profits off of the deals aren't getting their "fair" share.

Simple. It's evil and leads to evil

Desperate people will pay anything to live.

The profits from organ sales will be sky high.

People will do anything for large amounts of money.

See my note about Brazil. Organleggers. A disease means a matching murder. The poor are cannibalized to provide spare parts for the rich.

[MO Guy]

Healthy 30yo male looking to sell a kidney. Email me.

[Jeff]

Kidney donor, APC, if there was some mechanism in place to prevent predatory practices by such brokers, and assuring the truthfulness and legitimacy for both parties involved, I could see going along with legalizing it.

We see surrogate mothers who are paid to carry a pregnancy, egg donors who undergo a surgical procedure to retrieve the eggs, etc., all of these being medical procedures with real risk that people are willing to take, legally, for money.

Posted by: WoolSilkCotton | October 27, 2011 at 08:46 PM

I agree with WSC. It's certainly something that should be discussed.

The issue here is that it's yet another example of a Haredi thinking the laws of the goyische velt don't apply to him.

[Barry]

Would there be a need for seeking kidney donors from the living if hospitals were required to harvest suitable organs from the healthy who die in accidents below the age of 60? A credit against estate tax of a relatively small amount (but not so small as to be insulting), say $2,000 would be given.

It is ridiculous that thousands of viable organs are burned or buried and left to decompose when they could be harvested to help others.

[Kidney Donor]

Barry,
though I hear you, I just want to make you aware that the quality of a cadaver kidney is inferior to that of a living donor's kidney. Kidney's transplanted from living donors typically can last for 20-30 years, whereas a cadaver kidney will typically last for 7-12 years and then the patient is back to square one, on a waiting list... When I donated a kidney, my hospital roommate, was recuperating from his fourth transplant surgery, as each transplant he received only gave him several years of use as they were all from cadavers.

[WoolSilkCotton]

Barry, you can't just take a kidney out of a corpse. it has to be someone brain dead but still with circulation, or someone very much alive, otherwise the kidney is just rotten meat.

Also, patients and their families still have rights, including what is done to them when they are in a helpless state.

[Junarchist]

Selling body parts for profit should absolutely be legal. If it was legal there wouldn’t be over 100,000+ people desperately waiting for a transplant. If you have a problem with it, then don’t do it. I imagine the same idiots ranting against the selling of body parts have no problem supporting abortion.

[Barry]

I should have made it clearer in my earlier post that I was referring to brain dead as well as cadavers. The objections of those who regard brain death as not being death should be ignored as being mistaken.

There is nothing unethical about survivors of a ship wreck eating the corpse of a dead shipmate if faced with starvation. These survivors are entitled to fight off the one survivor who objects to this conduct on the grounds that this dead shipmate was his brother. Respect for the dead must be balanced against needs of the desperate who can be saved.

I do not deny that these are not emotionally difficult issues but they have to be faced rationally. It is unethical to 'violate' the living poor when it is possible to violate the dead (or brain dead). It is unethical to give greater importance to the dead then to the living even if the living are poor.

It us unethical to let the organs of the dead (or brain dead) go to rot when they could have been used to save the desperate. Not only is it unethical to give greater importance to the dead then the living, it is also unethical to give equal importance to the dead as the living. Of course the dead have some importance but it is nothing as against that of the living even the poor.

[No Light]

anuran - when I see someone stupidly proclaim "I don't trust western medicine or surgery, and will treat myself with diet and eastern medicine" my head automatically translates that as "I'm so lucky. I've never suffered from any real injury or illness, or been close to anyone who has".

I hope you never get a complicated fracture or a tumour Ruthie, because diet and made-up rituals won't do a thing except empty your bank account.

You are aware that so-called "Traditional" Chinese Medicine is no such thing, aren't you?

[anuran]

...and Ayurvedic medicine is a combination of herbalism - some of it quite good - with superstition and pre-scientific wierdness. Much of it is absolutely dangerous. Some of the rest is at least harmless.

[Waiting4Moshiach]

Nebech, I read that young goyas sell their eggs to older women so that they can have children. Legal! So if you can sell your eggs why not a kidney?

[SkepticalYid]

Eggs are not essential organs you flaming moron.

[seymour]

Selling body parts for profit should absolutely be legal. If it was legal there wouldn’t be over 100,000+ people desperately waiting for a transplant. If you have a problem with it, then don’t do it. I imagine the same idiots ranting against the selling of body parts have no problem supporting abortion.

Posted by: Junarchist | October 28, 2011 at 08:22 AM

it would not be need if people sign donor card

oh I forgot the frum would never do that, but want every other tom dick and Harry to do it so they can take

they are very good at taking from others

[WoolSilkCotton]

More efforts at stem cell research would be a better answer.

Transplants are life savers, but there are many tragic failures with transplants, and even when they succeed it becomes a lifetime of vigilance for the person with the new lease on life.

Stem cell research has become politicized by religious fanatics (gee, why does that sound familiar) who have a lot of clout with the Republican Party.
Funding for stem cell research is low because of these fanatics to whom politicians are beholden, and the overall economic situation (funds for medical research are hard to come by).

Of course, the frumma are fine with stem cell research, as long as nonJewish zygotes are used.

[Simple Jew]

B"H

I applaud Kidney Donor above. He (or she) is braver and more giving than all the rest of the posters on here (including me) put together.

Its a HUGE mitzvah to save a life.

I also think that if a consenting adult wants to sell their kidney it is their choice.

Time for the government to stop telling the population what to do and how to do it.

If it was illegal for Rosenbaum to broker these deals he should not have done the crime because of the potential to sit but it for sure is not a problem ethically-- unless you think the Federal government owns your body.

[Simple Jew]

B"H

Shmarya- Are you going to post something saying how you support that Rosenbaum made the right choice in pleading guilty and make a prediction on his sentence? Seeing as you always say SMR got what he deserved and he was wrong to plead not guilty, etc.

[WoolSilkCotton]

This case was a front page headlines story in the NJ Star Ledger.

They had a lengthy detailed transcript of wiretapped conversations with him.

He gloated about how much money he makes, and spoke with contempt and derision about how desperate the recipient was and how pathetic the donor was. He complained about how he had to bribe so many people along the way, and that he needed extra money just for those bribes.
There was not one word expressed by him in all the transcripts expressing any altruism, and reason for what he did other than profit, or regard for the parties involved.
He proved in the tapes that he was scum.

Should being an organ broker be legalized? Maybe.

Should this guy go to prison and pay huge fines? Absolutely.
He is scum. He has no regrets other than being caught.

Of course, the frumma will defend him to the end, for obvious reasons.

[Simple Jew]

B"H

Rosenbaum still saved more lives than any of you.

Whether it was for his own interests is not the main point. Most doctors won't do much if not getting paid for their service.

HE SAVED LIVES.

He got paid for his services but if he did not do what he did these people would be dead.

HE SAVED LIVES.

Say what you want but the Torah teaches us that saving a life is the same as saving the entire world.

Of course people in Hatzalah and those doctors who go to Africa for peace corps etc are in some ways better people because they volunteer but generally speaking top surgeons top doctors etc are pretty demanding and arrogant about getting paid. No insurance? Find someone else.

According to the stories he saved many lives.

How many lives did you save?

[SkepticalYid]

Get this straight, Simple Minded Jew... the people who were so desperate as to sell their kidneys weren't given proper medical advice, proper medical clearance nor were they properly informed of possible complications of the surgery . They put their lives at great risk as well as being ripped off. The Torah also teaches us that we don't put our lives at exceptional risk in order to save another person. You know it. You just choose to defend him no matter what egregious crimes he committed.

[Kidney donor]

Skepticalyid,
You are wrong (unless only New York Presbyterian have the following procedures):

After like five blood tests spanning 5-7 weeks, I had to meet the kidney coordinator of the hospital to give me the full run down. Then, I had to get a detailed exam by a nephrologist. Then I had to be examined by a psychiatrist. Then I had to be examined by a social worker. Only then was I given the clearance to meet the surgeon and schedule the surgery. If any of those doctors/ hospital employees would have been under the impression that I wasn’t up to task, they would have disqualified me from donating. The reason why they do that, is to make sure that potential donors aren’t denied proper advice, proper information, and aren’t given clearance when they’re unsuitable to donate. I can’t imagine there being a hospital that would perform a transplant with at least doing a semi rigorous screening of their potential donor.

[SkepticalYid]

@Kidney donor- I'm quite right since purchased kidneys come from overseas.

[Kidney donor]

you can't fedex a kidney from overseas. If a kidney isn't going directly from the body of the donor to the recipient, the transplant won't work. They have only a couple hours to rush it from donor to installation in recipient before the kidney would be rendered worthless, so what the broker must have done was flown in the sellers to US hospitals and they would thereby be subject to the rigorous US screening procedures. Not to mention the costs of putting them up for many weeks in the states...

[Kidney donor]

I meant to write earlier; I can’t imagine there being a hospital that would perform a transplant without at least doing a semi rigorous screening of their potential donor.

[WoolSilkCotton]

You can transplant a kidney up to 35 hours old. They are routinely transported via this:

http://www.organ-recovery.com/pdfs/Press_Kit/LifePort%20Kidney%
20Transporter%20FAQ.pdf

Therefore, you can FedEx kidneys globally.

Would you trust a kidney that Rosenbaum sells you from an Eastern bloc or third world country?

Who knows how many of his 'arrangements' involved surgery to be done in foreign countries, where the scrutiny isn't nearly as rigorous as in the USA.
How he managed to get his live donors into the USA and past the scrutiny of transplant centers here remains to be determined.

BTW, he did not "save lives" as so many of the frumma cheerleaders claim. His deals involved "those with the means who did not want to wait for a suitable donor organ, or did not qualify to be placed on a transplant list".

http://www.nj.com/news/index.ssf/2011/10/
man_pleads_guilty_in_human_org.html

[SkepticalYid]

Sorry Donor , your information isn't accurate. A transported kidney can be kept for up to 48 hours nowadays. That's more then sufficient for overseas transport.

[flat earth]

Perhaps New Square could re-purpose the shutdown chicken slaughter house as an organ
harvesting facility. New York is looking to give out grants for high tech medical companies. Maybe name it the Provident / New Square Kidney Center.

[Junarchist]

Seymour - you ignore the axiom of basic economics, which is that most of our decisions are rooted in incentives. A person will not part with an essential part of their body without any compensation / reward, whether that be monetary or some form of praise, etc. that is why more people do not sign donor cards, plus most people don’t like to think about their death or giving up something as vital as a part of their body. Since money is the best motivator we have, we need to allow people to be able to sell off their body parts. Your body is a form of property, so you should be able to do whatever you want with it…of course as long as you don’t injure or impede on anyone else’s right to their property.