Exclusive: Yiddish Sign Ordering Jewish Women To Step Aside For Men Still Posted On Public Property In Brooklyn

Despite earlier reports that the signs ordering women to step aside for men had been removed from public property by the city, at least one of these signs is still posted – bolted to a tree on public property in front of the Pupa synagogue in Brooklyn.

 

I broke the original story about the signs a few weeks ago, and the Brooklyn Paper followed up by reporting their removal.

Apparently only some of the signs were actually removed.

From a Brooklyn source, who took this picture earlier today:

Related Posts:

Illegally Posted Yiddish Signs Tell Women To step Aside For Men.

City Workers Remove Illegally Posted Sexist Yiddish Signs.

Comments

[Deremes]

That is some breaking news.
Here is another scoop:
Not some but many are still posted "illegally" on trees.

[jancsipista.]

deremes- you actually sound like you approve of it do you?

[Pupana]

PUPA are COWS.... pupa rebbe tzadik hador...

[different dave]

Shamarya sounds like that one snitch in kindergarten that couldn't wait to get the other kids in trouble so juvenile

[Deremes]

deremes- you actually sound like you approve of it do you?

Posted by: jancsipista. | October 31, 2011 at 01:08 PM

I couldn't care less.Do you care? Do you live there?

[Gevezener Chusid]

I think we should spend more taxpayer dollars to make sure they are removed immediately. This is certainly more important than any of the other stupid things that city employees are up to today!

[ruthie]

They are saying, ‘We own the street, we own the bus, we own the public square.’”

[Jack Tripper]

Here's another scoop for you. This picture wasn't taken in the last 3 days. The street is pristine.

NYC got 3" and more of snow, and not all of it melted. There'd be at least a few piles of slush remaining.

[Shlomo]

Darn. Now that we have withdrawn funding from UNESCO, not even they can help fight for equality of women in the middle of NY

[HadEnuff]

This looks like the perfect spot to hold the gay and lesbian "Occupy Brooklyn!"

[jancsipista.]

deremes- yes i care i dont live there but i dont want people who are mentally disturbed to dominate and dictate to peace loving normal people their insanity and act like they are superiou to others and on top of all that to terrorize others like they do in mea shearim israel.

[Dovit]

.Do you care? Do you live there?

Well, it IS in the U.S.A., and many on this blog DO live in the U.S., so of course they should care, just as people should care if these signs were put up by Muslims. And just as many in the states also care about what goes on in Israel, even though they don't live there.

[seymour]

Posted by: Jack Tripper | October 31, 2011 at 01:55 PM

I live in Brooklyn never had 3" this week there is no snow slush anywhere today and i live in an area that got more than most of Brooklyn

[seymour]

two can play this game

maybe we should pit up sign

satmer move over when real Jews walk down the street

[seymour]

maybe yoeli was right his floch should never have come to USa

since once they get a little freedom and or power they turned into arrogant bastards

it seems they only know how to behave when they are oppressed

[Deremes]

Posted by: seymour | October 31, 2011 at 04:55 PM

Real Jews are suppose to follow the Torah,right? Otherwise how are they Jewish.
Those frumma you claim do not follow the Torah.
YOU don't follow and don't believe in the Torah and you claim that the Torah is a racist document.

So who are the real Jews?

[HadEnuff]

So who are the real Jews?

Posted by: Deremes | October 31, 2011 at 04:59 PM

The Ethiopians get my vote!

[Abracadabra]

NYC got 3" and more of snow, and not all of it melted. There'd be at least a few piles of slush remaining.

Posted by: Jack Tripper | October 31, 2011 at 01:55 PM

It was an October snow, not a January snow when the freezing temperatures remain to cause slush.

I live in NYC. It snowed on Shabbos day. It never accumulated to 3-inches in Brooklyn or Queens. Either way, it was all melted - every last drop - and was completely gone by Sunday afternoon. There was not a trace left.

If this picture was taken today, Monday, there's no problem with the street being clean. Yes, the city does clean the streets, sometimes.

[PrettyBoyFloyd]

Dovit, seymour, Gevezener Chusid, jancsipista, & ruthie are the only maggots in the entire country that care about what a couple of sex deprived loons in Willy NY are doing.
Shemarya doesnt even care, he just writes this shit cuz he don't got no job.

[Barry]

Real Jews are suppose to follow the Torah,right? Otherwise how are they Jewish.

Posted by: Deremes | October 31, 2011 at 04:59 PM

So can babies be regarded as Jewish since they do not yet follow the Torah? If not then at what stage in development does a child become a Jew? Does this process occur suddenly or gradually?

Does an adult stop being a Jew when he is asleep and not following the Torah? Is an adult's Jewishness interrupted when he is sinning and acting contrary to the Torah (which for a Satmar chossid is most of the time)?

[Waiting4Moshiach]

So what? Such signs are only for Yidden. Goyim and frei cant read anyway. A bachur I know told me that if a tree had a neshama, it would be happy to hold up a sign like that.

[rebitzman]

So what?

It's against the law.

That's so what.

The Talmud and the Torah, draw no distinction between religious and secular law. You have to follow both.

Or perhaps you also say "So what?" to keeping kosher? "So what?" to keeping the Sabbath?

In that case - OK

[p]

one of these signs is still posted

Time to take the tree down! Continue to do this until they have no where else to post it.

This is a potent sign and its removal is of paramount importance for the welfare of the city and its residents.

[WoolSilkCotton]

++Waiting4Moshiach | October 31, 2011 at 06:33 PM++

If the tree had a neshama, it would smash the sign over your stupid head.

You damage the tree when you nail or screw into it. (Is there anything the frumma won't screw?) Trees get diseases and die when you injure their protective bark, not that the frumma could give a crap about any living thing they can exploit. That's the only objection I have to the sign. Put it up on a traffic light or street signpost.

I agree with the sign. Let the frumma keep treating their women more and more like crap. The more regressive and absurd the frumma become, the more it becomes evident to the rest of society as to who and what they are.

[rebitzman]

@WoolSilkCotton

Frumma?

"You keep using that word. I do not think it means what you think it means." — Inigo Montoya.

;)

[Litvish]

Posted by: Waiting4Moshiach

That tree has more of a neshomoh than you will ever have, you worthless piece of drek.

[Mendy Hecht]

Oh, no! It's Hecht the Apologist again!

(How are we ever going to get rid of this guy?)

Seriously:

This is misleading and misrepresenting.

The sign does not "order" women to step to the side.

It does not "order" them, or anyone, to do anything.

It merely politely _asks_ "dear Jewish daughters" to "please step to the side when a man approaches."

Now you can laugh all you want at this supposed male domination or sexism.

But it does not, repeat, not, order, the women to move to the side. It simply asks them to do so.

If they don't--and I'm sure that both they and the men are frequently too busy to mind--then it's no big deal.

Those who want to know why anyone would put up such a sign--or, if a woman, listen to it, are mature and open-minded enough to ask.

Those who don't are either bigots, or juveniles, or people who've made up their minds about Orthodox ("Haredi") Judaism in the first place and are as close-minded as they accuse us of being.

Think, people, think. Let's see some genuine liberal understanding and sensitivity here.

[rebitzman]

It merely politely _asks_ "dear Jewish daughters" to "please step to the side when a man approaches."

And it does so illegally, Mendy.

Why does that not matter?

[Zack]

Mendy Hecht

Give me a break. This sign business has to be the most degrading thing for our times. If men want to keep tznius how about THEY make way for the women.
What a gigantic chutzpa on the part of the ongeshtopteh men laydigeyers.

[WoolSilkCotton]

Rebitzman, trust me, I know that it means, and more importantly, the connotation it always carried with my friends and me.

I have a medical condition that causes me to ridicule frumma at every opportunity. Therefore, I cannot be held accountable for anything I write here on FM.

[seymour]

Real Jews are suppose to follow the Torah,right? Otherwise how are they Jewish.
Those frumma you claim do not follow the Torah.
YOU don't follow and don't believe in the Torah and you claim that the Torah is a racist document.

So who are the real Jews?

Posted by: Deremes | October 31, 2011 at 04:59 PM

your assumption not mine and about 90% of Jews

anyway satmar does not follow the Torah so they are just like me

maybe not i follow secular at least

[seymour]

Posted by: Mendy Hecht | October 31, 2011 at 07:30 PM

as others mentioned if is is just about tzinia it should simply say

of woman come men please move or cross the street

what is appalling to many is that the woman are most lily walking with children or babies and they still ask the woman to move

that is what they think of their woman

[ultra haredi lite]

Free Translation:
"Dear Daughters, for your own self preservation, if when walking down the street you are induced to vomit from a very odorful stench, beware and look up. You will notice a laydigayer man who washes with fetid mikveh waters coming towards you.
RRUUNN!!!"

[Korbendallas72]

Mendy,

How about a sign that said "Worthless shitbag Chabadniks step aside for real Jews who contribute to society, Jews who respect women, and Jews who do not discriminate based on blood because that's what their idol shitbag rebbe told them"? Would you protest then, if an anti mindless shitbag sign were raised? That Klal Yisroel might know just how low you and your ilk truly are?

[Bklyn11230]

We need our own Rosa Parks.

[Mendy Hecht]

Hey Rebitzman,

Legal does matter, of course.

There are two illegal things here:

1. Private community signs permanently affixed to city property

2. Asking citizens of a certain gender to make way for citizens of the other gender

So now, back to the real question: What it is with these people?

As for #1, whoever did it just took all the paper posters and fliers you see all over the place (at least in Brooklyn)... which technically are illegal but everyone does it... and the cops and city do nothing about it because they can't... to the next level

As for #2, for this to really constitute a crime, or a violation of women's civil rights, the women of this community would need to come forward to protest. (And don't tell me they're too intimidated to do so--if there was a real problem here, like some man really pushing his masculinity too far by being physically inappropriate, someone would find out.)

So for the women of this community, this is by and large no different then wearing glasses in other communities. This is the way they think, the cultural norm, and they're used to it.

Yes, personally, I don't agree with it, but that's because I'm not from that community. But I can respect their thinking and their way of life.

Can you?

[Rebitzman]

Legal doesn't matter?

How can I respect Jews that don't follow Torah?

[anuran]

The sign says "Grovel when you see a Christian, filthy jew."

But it's not ordering anyone to do anything so, it's all good. Right Mendy?

[Rebitzman]

Mendy - in all seriousness. Cut the city out of the loop. Make it a bus "club" with "membership" - be legal.

Of COURSE the "frum" are entitled to worship as they wish, BUT they are NOT entitled to break the law (secular or otherwise) to do it.

Again - to be clear. If anyone (male or female) takes on that path, it is their absolute right to be on it.

MY personal issue with the "frum" is NOT how they "treat" women - it is how they treat me, and how they treat those who have chosen a different path. And that, in more cases than not - is with utter and open contempt.

Ergo - I find your pea for tolerance to ring a tad hollow. Just a tad. Respect is to a certain extent, granted with age, but fr te mst part it s earned through one's actions - not one's clothing, at or beard.

[Radical Feminist]

The next time I pass a sign like that I will be sure to lift my skirts and either moon someone or pee on the sidewalk.

[Korbendallas72]

Mendy,

If any of you worthless Chabadnik shitbags make it into the new age, provided your mindless idolatry doesn't preclude you from summary irraduation, what makes you think that your shitbag idol is worth a damn, you weak minded fool?

[Abracadabra]

As for #2, for this to really constitute a crime, or a violation of women's civil rights, the women of this community would need to come forward to protest. (And don't tell me they're too intimidated to do so--if there was a real problem here, like some man really pushing his masculinity too far by being physically inappropriate, someone would find out.)

Mendy - They are too afraid and intimidated to report countless cases of "real problems" of child rape, but you are saying that they would NOT be too intimidated or afraid to report "some man pushing his masculinity too far". Uh huh. Right.

Do you always lie to yourself, or only for display on this blog?

[Abracadabra]

1. Private community signs permanently affixed to city property

As for #1, whoever did it just took all the paper posters and fliers you see all over the place (at least in Brooklyn)... to the next level

Mendy - So, your excuse for this is that they "ONLY" took it to the next level by destroying a tree for their sexist, illegal sign? Your excusing breaking the law by "taking it to the next level" sound like someone is moving from Coach to Business Class. Thinking about murdering someone is not a crime, but if you ONLY "take it to the next level" and go through with attempting to murder someone - that IS a crime.

Take that to the next level of your mind.

And stop twisting the truth - would you? For someone who is trying to apologize for the unacceptable behavior of Ultra-Orthodox Chassidim, you're making an even worse impression by trying to excuse it all the time!

Think, people, think. Let's see some genuine liberal understanding and sensitivity here.

No. Sorry. No liberal understanding is being offered for abuses of human rights. And mistreatment of women is a human rights issue. Asking women to step aside for men on public streets is a human rights issue. If you don't see that, maybe it's time to ask yourself why.

So for the women of this community, this is by and large no different then wearing glasses in other communities. This is the way they think, the cultural norm, and they're used to it.

It is not okay to treat someone badly, to deny them rights, or to consider and act towards them like they are second class citizens, even if they "are used to" being treated that way. The women in Afganistan are also "used to it" and for them, being denied rights and being considered second class citizens is no different than wearing glasses. That doesn't mean it's ethical, or right. Female genital mutilation is the norm in certain African countries and women and girls are "used to it" in those cultures. That doesn't mean it should be legal or acceptable ANYWHERE the USA just because it is the "cultural norm" of the people who want to continue practicing it in the USA.

So Mendy, how else would you like to twist the truth around in an attempt to defend your fellow Ultra-Orthodox Chassidishe brothers' abhorent behavior?

Oh, I know, you think you're a gilgul of the Berditchiver! You're going to find something good in every disgusting behavior of Chassidim. Well, good luck with that. But please, I'll ask you again, spare us from your apologetics, your lies and twisted truths. If you want to engage in apologetics - try convincing G-d - but please leave the rest of us alone.

[Korbendallas72]

Show me a Chabadnik "gadol" and I'll piss in his mouth, the lowlife shitbag that he is...

[Agent Smith]

As a newcomer to this blog, it is easy to see that there are obvioisly many people here who are suffering and have enormous amount of pain. My question to you is why? Just a simple why? As intelligent people, which most of you sound like you are, you should understand that the chareidi or frumma are just human like the rest of us. They have the same faults and insecurities as anyone else and if at times they transgress the Torah, it's because they are no holier than anyone else. Do you feel that they look down on you or that they make themselves superior to you? I guarantee that if you sit down with them one on one you will find that the majority of them feel exactly the way you do. So they dress differently? Who cares? I once asked a hasid friend of mine who is no longer religious why he still dresses like a hassid since he is not religious and his answer was very revealing. He said its just a cultural thing for him. Let's remember that we are all Jews and we can make the world a better place one person at a time by starting with ourselves. Let's stop caring about how we perceive they are going to regard us and let's set a good example for them by showing them the right way to behave.

[p]

Show me a Chabadnik "gadol" and I'll piss in his mouth, the lowlife shitbag that he is...

Posted by: Korbendallas72 | November 01, 2011 at 01:11 AM

Now don't hold yourself back!

[OMG]

Posted by: Agent Smith | November 01, 2011 at 02:10 AM
You are very misinformed about charediem; most of us were born, and raised in the charedi community. So stop telling us about how charediem feel or act toward the rest of the world. Regarding your friend who claims that his attire is cultural and, therefore, he stays within the dress guidelines, he is full of crap, he is afraid of the unknowing world, afraid of what society has to offer. Your friend will marry and play the game and bring into the world children who will have the same disadvantages that he had, and feared. We know the truth, it is not that we hate orthodox Jews; we have still close family within the community.
We hate the illegal activities perpetrated by people of the book.
We hate their view that nobody is human or has a soul only if they are charediem.
We hate the depravity of people who believe we will all go to hell.
We hate the fact that the children are brainwashed, and do not get a primary school education, we had to learn how to write and read as adults.
We hate that we could not date nor have any mixed social activities.
In other words, I could go on for the rest of the nights, do not dare, tell us that depriving us from a normal upbringing is ok. Next time, think before you write, and do not judge us.

[Jeff]

As for #2, for this to really constitute a crime, or a violation of women's civil rights, the women of this community would need to come forward to protest. (And don't tell me they're too intimidated to do so--if there was a real problem here, like some man really pushing his masculinity too far by being physically inappropriate, someone would find out.)

Are you really that dense, or in that much denial?

But I can respect their thinking and their way of life.

Posted by: Mendy Hecht | October 31, 2011 at 09:28 PM

Thereby revealing your bias and disqualifying yourself from any rational discourse.

[Jeff]

That tree has more of a neshomoh than you will ever have, you worthless piece of drek.

Posted by: Litvish | October 31, 2011 at 07:27 PM

Seconded.

[Jeff]

So can babies be regarded as Jewish since they do not yet follow the Torah? If not then at what stage in development does a child become a Jew? Does this process occur suddenly or gradually?

Does an adult stop being a Jew when he is asleep and not following the Torah? Is an adult's Jewishness interrupted when he is sinning and acting contrary to the Torah (which for a Satmar chossid is most of the time)?

Posted by: Barry | October 31, 2011 at 06:16 PM

I've actually been told by a Satmar (which I think we've established Deremes is, but I'm not certain) that I'm not a Jew, as I don't follow the "Toyreh" way of life. However, he also told me I'm going to hell for not doing so. When I pointed out the contradiction - that he's condemning me for not doing something I'm not obligated to do, as in his eyes, I'm not a Jew - well, as you may imagine, I didn't get anything remotely resembling a straight answer.

Rationality has been (in)bred out of them, and the tendency is reinforced by their system of "education".

[Yochanan Lavie]

In the Warsaw Ghetto, Jews had to doff their hats and kipot whenever a Nazi officier went by. Just a historical perspective.

[Korbendallas72]

Let's remember that we are all Jews and we can make the world a better place one person at a time by starting with ourselves. Let's stop caring about how we perceive they are going to regard us and let's set a good example for them by showing them the right way to behave.

Posted by: Agent Smith | November 01, 2011 at 02:10 AM

The right way to behave? No, you don't get to put people in psychological prisons and then appeal to their common sense. What you get is well deserved vitriol for teaching hierarchy, privilege, idolatry, conformity, racial supremacy, and in general doing everything in your power to emulate the enemy. Shit, you even dress like him. Maybe what you need is a solid smack in the face so you'll learn your lesson.

I gained nothing by remaining silent and so help me God I'm going to dish out as much vitriol as humanly possible so that others may know what your cult is about.

From where does liberty come? From the hand of your rebbe or the hand of God? Can you even tell the difference anymore?

[NLR]

YL -

Is there a chance of a Jellybean/Madonna "Sidewalk Talk" parody?

[Rebitzman]

@Mendy

In JUST the last year:

1.        On 3 separate occasions, Haredi Jews have “visited” our synagogue apparently so that they could be openly disrespectful to our rabbi, refusing (again – in our building) to refer to her by her title, instead insisting loudly that she was the rebbitzin.  On one occasion, they began davening loudly outside the sanctuary doors (God forbid they should come in and pray with us).  On their way out – they turned and spit on the doors.
2.       One visited on a Sunday morning and admonished those of us present loudly over the fact that we should lay teffilin – ignoring the fact that everyone present had strap marks on their arms (having just finished Shachareit) .
3.       The local Chabad rabbi offered to come by and blow shofar for us so we could hear it during the holydays since “we didn’t know how to blow it”.  The assumption is insulting and false.
4.       Same rabbi offered to go to a nursing home and blow shofar for a bunch of our shut ins.  People showed up – he didn’t.  When called about it he said (and this is a quote) that he would apologize only if they came to his shul for Rosh Hashanah.
5.       Different Chabad rabbi tried to visit my dying father in law in the hospital in spite of the fact that he had been asked directly (and nicely) not to do so (at my father in law’s request).  His comment to the family when they asked that he not come in as the man lay dying was “It’s attitudes like yours that caused the destruction of the 2nd Temple”.
6.       A random haredi showed up at the synagogue to tell us that we needed to start circumcising our kids.  The assumption we do not is insulting and false.
7.       We have a grocery in town that carries a supply of kosher meat – mainly because I developed a relationship with the manager, and arranged for it to be brought in.  They also expanded their kosher dairy and dry goods area to include foods that people would actually eat.  The response from the haredi community (to my face was) why would YOU do this?
8.       When Chabad establish a house here, we sent over gifts.  They were not only never acknowledged, we later found out that they had been thrown away.
9.       One of our members came over to my house before Pesach and asked if he could dig up a horseradish root from my garden for the Chabad rabbi.  He took it in a bag with the dirt still around it – and the rabbi made a point to let it be known he would not let it into his house.
10.   We have received multiple calls at the house from citizens of the town (who do not know Conservative from Haredi) complaining bitterly about the behavior of Haredi young men who hang out at the mall and schorr from people as they come in and out.
11.   Was followed down the street while walking with my wife by a group of haredi who screamed at her for a block to go “F_ck herself” because she was wearing a kippah.

 

To be fair – on the other side of the coin, the supervising rabbi for the kosher slaughterhouse where these men work called my wife to thank her for arranging for kosher food.  The 100 mile drive to the closest grocery had been a bit of a hardship to a group of people making ~$28k a year killing cows.  He was extremely gracious.

On balance, however, the behavior and experience with your community has been overwhelmingly negative, and for you to scream tolerance from inside one of the most intolerant groups on this planet would be laughable, were it not so damned offensive.

[No Light]

Agent Schmutz - when chareidim and chassidim stop insisting that they're higher, more evolved and enlightened life-forms than the rest of humanity, then we'll stop holding them to that standard.

As long as they keep insisting that; theirs is the true path, that they are a light unto the goyim, and that they have extra-special souls and deserve extra-special treatment, then they'll be treated like the arrogant pricks that they are.

Got it?

[Abracadabra]

Rebitzman - That is quite a list. I say "ditto" to the message.

[Jeff]

Posted by: Rebitzman | November 01, 2011 at 11:08 AM

Wow. Just... wow.

[Yochanan Lavie]

NLR: Sorry, I'm not familiar with the song. Maybe I'll do something else.

[Yochanan Lavie]

Apologies to Martha & the Vandellas (Dancing in the Street):

Callin' out 'round Willy Burg
Are you ready to kill some trees?
Chumra's here and the time to fight
Mixed dancin' in the street
There dancin' in Monsey (mixed dancin' in the street)
Down in Borough Park (mixed dancin' in the street)
In New York City (mixed dancin' in the street)

All we need are chumrot (strict strict) strict (strict strict)chumrot
There will be issurim (chumrot) everywhere (everywhere)
They'll be schucklin' and swayin' and Yidden prayin'
But dancing's indiscreet

Nu, it doesn't matter what you wear
Just as long as a black hat appears
So come on every guy
Grab a guy, everywhere the rebbes sigh

We hate dancin'
Dancing's indiscreet (dancing's indiscreet)
This is a frum invasion across the nation
We don't want girls and guys to meet
They'll be cursing, schreing and women crying,
We're seperating the street

Kiryas Joel, N.Y.(dancing's indiscreet)
Square Town and Crown Heights, nu (dancing's indiscreet)
Can't forget the Meah Shearim (dancing's indiscreet)

All we need are chumrot
(Strict strict) strict chumrot(strict strict chumrot)
There will be issurim everwhere (everywhere)
They'll be davening and praying (praying)
And loud "oy vey"-ing (oy vey)
But dancing's indiscreet

Oy, it doesn't matter what you wear
Just as long as you have a beard
So come on every rabbi, grab a bochur
Everywhere, make a brocha

We're separating, we're separating the street
(Separating the street)
Way down in the Burg, spread the word
We're separating the street (the street)
Let's post a Yiddish sign
As if it's mine, we're separating the street
(Separating in the street)

[Fades]

[adams]

very nice I would only change
Davening and praying, to Davening and Peyos swaying

[Yochanan Lavie]

Thanks, Adams.

[Mendy Hecht]

Hi Rebitzman and Abracadabra,

I would really love to discuss the issue further with you. It seems from your comments that we're elevating the discourse here. Please e-mail me at totaltext@gmail.com. Thanks!

[seymour]

Rebitzman

the mistake you made is engaging with them.

once you did that they saw an opening.

very dangerous

[NLR]

YL -

Another great one!

[Rebitzman]

Seymour, talking foments understanding, it's why you and I talk.

I will not be turned to the dark side. ;)

[Adam Neira]

As I have posted here before at FM, I own the billion dollar site funnysigns.com. I thought some other entrepreneur had snaffled this juicy specimen already, but seeing as it is still unclaimed I am going to send my special undercover agents to take it off the hands of the local municipality one dark night soon.

[Yochanan Lavie]

Thanks, NLR.

[masortiman]

"Let's stop caring about how we perceive they are going to regard us and let's set a good example for them by showing them the right way to behave. "

I think that for those of us with haredi friends and relations, showing them, as far as we can, that we are living good lives, with integrity and ethics and with a serious committment to Judaism, without being haredi, is about the most powerful thing we can do. You can never be sure when someone you are talking to is or is not someone thinking of going off the derech. You can be sure that they have been told that all non haredim are debauched. Modeling change is probably the best approach.

[Proton Soup]

As for #2, for this to really constitute a crime, or a violation of women's civil rights, the women of this community would need to come forward to protest. (And don't tell me they're too intimidated to do so--if there was a real problem here, like some man really pushing his masculinity too far by being physically inappropriate, someone would find out.)

So for the women of this community, this is by and large no different then wearing glasses in other communities. This is the way they think, the cultural norm, and they're used to it.

Yes, personally, I don't agree with it, but that's because I'm not from that community. But I can respect their thinking and their way of life.

Can you?

Posted by: Mendy Hecht | October 31, 2011 at 09:28 PM

you're neglecting one inconvenient fact here. the only reason this has become a public fiasco is because they are violating women's rights who aren't a part of this community. these women are coming forward and complaining.

they really should have no need to put up signs, on buses or trees. why not, i dunno, teach them your customs at home or in your house of worship like ever other religious group in america? it's one thing to respect their thinking and their way of life, but can they respect everyone else's?

[Ben]

See article below, these signs in the USA are no different to the Islamic estremists in the UK

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-2020382/You-entering-Sharia-law-Britain-As-Islamic-extremists-declare-Sharia-law-zone-London-suburb-worrying-social-moral-implications.html

[Rebitzman]

Ben - the laws of Great Brittain and the laws of the US are not the same laws.

Oh........and 2 wrongs do not make a right, so "THEY did it too!" is no excuse for bad behavior.

I get it. Women deferring to men is part and parcel of their beliefs and as alien as that might be to me, it's their right to so practice.

That said - hang the dang sign in the house, the shul or put it in the window of a shop. Do NOT violate the law and nail to a tree on the public way.

[Ben]

Rebitzman - you missed my point. I was saying that the way the Chasidim in Williamsburg are behaving is the no different to the Islamic extremists. Both are equally frightening and repulsive.

[Rebitzman]

And mine is that they are neither frightening or repulsive as long as they are observed by willing participants in a manner that is legal. Hanging a sign on a public way MAY be in GB, but it's not in NYC.

Not MY style, mind you - and there would be an issue if they tried to enforce their standards on me, my wife or my daughters on a public street, but........

Great thing about the US - I don't have to adhere to anyone else's religious standards, nor do I have to tolerate anyone trying to cram them down my throat. I do have to acknowledge that this is a door that swings both ways, and that if I demand tolerance, I must BE tolerant.

[Litvish]

Rebitzman

Great post.

[YS]

You have a misleading headline, Shmarya! It doesn't "ORDER" the women off the sidewalk. The sign ASKS, and pretty nicely, too. (Not that I agree with the sign's request. But you've got to call a spade a spade.)