End Of The Road For Haredi Bus Gender Segregation?

The Williambsburg to Borough Park B-110 bus, operated by a hasidic-owned company that franchises with the City of New York to operate the B-110, has for years forced women to sit at the back of the bus. But after an exposé by the New York World and the subsequent publicity here and elsewhere, the city told the Private Transportation Corporation it would lose its contract to operate the line if it continued to discriminate against women.

End Of The Road For Haredi Bus Gender Segregation?
Shmarya Rosenberg • FailedMessiah.com

Is it the end of the road for haredi bus gender segregation?

The Williambsburg to Borough Park B-110 bus, operated by a hasidic-owned company that franchises with the City of New York to operate the B-110, has for years forced women to sit at the back of the bus.

But after an exposé by the New York World and the subsequent publicity here and elsewhere, the city told the Private Transportation Corporation it would lose its contract to operate the line if it continued to discriminate against women.

According to the New York Post, the Private Transportation Corporation responded to the city in a letter, “promising to instruct drivers not to move women to the back” of the bus.

However, it doesn’t appear that Private Transportation Corporation promised the city that it would stop haredi passengers from telling women to move to the back, meaning haredi men can still intimidate women and coerce them to move to the back of the bus while the driver remains silent – unless the women being harassed ask the driver for help.

This omission seems quite odd until you realize the B-110 has been operated by Private Transportation Corporation for almost 30 years, and during almost all of that time Private Transportation Corporation has illegally run the line as gender segregated with the city doing nothing to stop it.

The B-110 primarily serves hasidim, most of whom are Satmar, and most of whose communities bloc vote.

The omission of a promise to stop haredi passengers from forcing women to sit at the back of the bus along with the apparent ignoring of that omission by the city may mean that, despite the New York Post’s claim to the contrary, gender segregation will be alive and well on the B-110 for years to come.

Update 2:00 pm CDT – The New York Times City Room blog is reporting that there were complaints about other practices of Private Transportation Corporation:

…Some residents said they had been complaining about the B110 bus for years. Robert Keith, a resident of Carlton Avenue, said that since 2006, he had complained to city agencies that the bus line was violating its official route and often passed down his residential street, which does not allow trucks. But Mr. Keith said that when he asked several government agencies why this was allowed, “I never got an answer to that question.”

Related Posts:

In Brooklyn, An Illegally Gender Segregated City Bus.

In New Square, Signs Order Men And Women To Walk On Different Sides Of The Street.

Step Aside For Men, Yiddish Signs Order Women In Williamsburg.

Jerusalem City Council Member Fired By Mayor After She Successfully Challenged Haredi Gender Segregation.

Reform Movement Files Petition With Israel's High Court To End Forced Gender Segregation At The Main Entrance To The Western Wall Plaza.

[Hat Tip: Ruthie.]

Comments

[ruthie]

THE APPROVAL MATRIX
DELIBERATELY OVERSIMPLIFIED GUIDE TO WHO FALLS WHERE ON TASTE HIERACHIES..

highbrow despicable:
women in brooklyn's hasidic neighborhoods are
FORCED TO SIT IN THE BACK OF PUBLIC BUSES.

[seymour]

if they want to self segregate what can be done

but again the driver should get involved if a woman is told to move to the back.

What happens when a man sits in the back to be amongst all those woman do they yell to go to the front, I wonder

[Dan O.]

What's done is done. Sex segregation is legally beyond the pale. The city must not renew the contract. Does anyone think that "Oops, my bad" should be the end of it? right.

[mmm]

segregation was stopped on the monsey trails more the 15 years ago, but you would not notice it. it looks almost the same as it did 20 years ago.

[Garnel Ironheart]

The sense of entitlement these menuvalim have won't let them run an unsegregated bus. They'll push the issue and continue to do it until the city gets some cojones and calls the police in the forcibly end it. And do you think they're going to do that?

[ruthie]

20 years ago, they would insist that men and women be separated.
15 years ago, they took the stupid curtain down.
today, to their credit, they will not make a woman move.
still because "what will people say" men and women separated on monsey trails.

[ruthie]

meant to write...today men and women separate on monsey trails because of what will people say mentality.
women on the right
men on the left of the bus.

[Simple Jew]

B"H

guys -- come on -- respect communities rights to do what they choose and how they choose.

IF the women on the bus are ok with sitting in the back or the front or wherever why do you care?

Are you going to start forcing Haredi shuls to have mixed seating there as well?

Of course if some non jewish or jewish egalitarian woman insists on sitting anywhere she wants on the bus no one including the driver or the passengers can tell her to move. That would be a violation of civil rights.

[shlimel]

בפסתים (מט ע״ב) איתא אמר ר״ע כשהייתי עם הארץ אמרתי מי יתן לי תל ם י ד הכם
ואנשכנו כתמור, וצריך להבין הלשו ן ״מי יתן לי״.
אלא שך ל כך היה ת״ת בזוי בעיניו, בהיותו ע״ה, שאף י ל ו כדי ל עשו ת לו רעה, לא
היה כדאי עבורו ל ל כת אחריו ולנושכו, אלא ״מי יתן לי ת ״ ת ואנשכנו״, אם אך יביאוהו
ויזמנוהו אלי, אנשכנו אני כחמור, בשם רבי חיים מוולוז׳ין.

and you reshuim going after ת״ת all the time must be you're not even מזרע ישראל

[Know Em All]

and the subsequent publicity here

Dream on. You had nothing to do with it - and in the end everyone will sit where they did voluntarily. All that happened is that they can no longer instruct drivers to enforce seating.

So, one more provocateur will try, customers will tell her where to sit, and the driver will say nothing or say he can't legally enforce it.

Accomplishment: Zero.

[Whyaich]

It doesn't make q difference if the drivers or people will tell them or not. The women know to sit in the back anyways.
These people would never give up such a good business, of course they would 'bow' to the city's demands

[Dovit]

Why are Jews behaving like radical Muslims lately?

[seymour]

Why are Jews behaving like radical Muslims lately?

Posted by: Dovit | October 26, 2011 at 10:32 AM

you are mixing it up

why are the radical Muslims behaving like utra frum Jews

[WoolSilkCotton]

Nothing will change. The 'letter' and response are just meaningless motions to make it look like something was accomplished.

The frumma always win in NYC. Too many bloc votes, too much money donated to politicians, too much protekzia.

Nothing will change.

[seymour]

Posted by: Simple Jew | October 26, 2011 at 09:18 AM

you truly are simple

It is a city franchisee not a private bus service

understand that

[seymour]

vin readers are going crazy

they truly believe that segregation have been the realty since the beginning of time

weird

[WoolSilkCotton]

Just a reminder of the political power of the frumma.

The NYC Health Commissioner resigned in disgust when the mayor's office tried to force him to approve Metziza B'peh.

The feckless NYS Health Commissioner, Antonia Novello (later became Surgeon General), caved in and did some Metziza B'peh of her own, as seen in these pictures:

http://www.crownheights.info/index.php?itemid=2421

[Gevezener Chusid]

How many of you meanmouthed pissheads have ever even TAKEN the Williamsburg bus?

As I have said many times, I am not frum, but since I don't have anything to do with that bus route, it isn't any of my concern, as long as women (and men) are not FORCED to sit anywhere they don't want to sit. This is a line that serves the two charedi communities and has done so for decades - illegal, shmiegel... get a life.

[seymour]

Posted by: WoolSilkCotton | October 26, 2011 at 11:17 AM

the other issue is as per the Talmud it should be assur to do Metziza B'pe with todays medical knowledge

the ultra orthodox do not even follow their own holy books

[seymour]

Posted by: WoolSilkCotton | October 26, 2011 at 11:17 AM

the other issue is as per the Talmud it should be assur to do Metziza B'pe with todays medical knowledge

the ultra orthodox do not even follow their own holy books

the thinking, this is the way is has been done is more important than halchha and any rational thinking.

their actions have become dogma and they do not even know why anything is done anymore they just do it as a robot. of course that makes their actions meaningless

[Deremes]

Forget about the legality and maybe they might loose the franchise.
But,
No one is forcing anyone where to seat and there is no intimidation going on.The women want to seat separate as much as the men want.

Non of you commenting on this have a clue but its good for badmouthing.Although its not badmouthing because there is no crime.

You evil self hating Jews just cant take it that frum Jews live a Torah life.And all of you scream on frum Jews "live and let live" and here you poking your noses,yuck.

[WoolSilkCotton]

I would agree with Deremes and Gevezener that if a nonfrumma woman gets on the bus, as long as she is not harassed into sitting in the back, it's not a problem if the frumma women want to sit in the back.
Of course, the bus company will claim it is not their policy to make women sit in the back.

If any woman (religious or not) refused to move to the back, and the male passengers gave her a hard time, and the bus driver refused to intercede on her behalf, the bus company can be sued.

You will never get any frum woman to testify against the men or the driver, so there can only be a lawsuit if a woman (religious or not) files a complaint, and I doubt if any frum woman will ever do so.

[seymour]

You evil self hating Jews just cant take it that frum Jews live a Torah life.And all of you scream on frum Jews "live and let live" and here you poking your noses,yuck.

Posted by: Deremes | October 26, 2011 at 12:03 PM

you are not living a Torah live you are living a distorted nonsensical Torah live

please show me anywhere in the Torah where one must separate the says on a bus wagon chariot

we do not think of ourselves of making fun or attacking Torah Judaism since we do not consider what the frum do to be true torah Judaism

[Deremes]

Posted by: seymour | October 26, 2011 at 12:22 PM

According to you it does say in the Torah becuase you claim that the Torah is a racist document so it shouldn't be news to you.

And as long nothing criminal or unethical is done just keep your nose out of somebody elses business.Live and let live but i suppose you have no life.

[A E ANDERSON]

Here in Clown Heights yesterday, I spied a private bus outside Kingston Pizza (which incidentally has vastly improved under its new ownership). Men and women were self-seating themselves on the Borough Park bound jitney, but seemed to be self-segregating along-side each other, men on the right, women on the left.

[WoolSilkCotton]

Deremes, if the Torah required this separation, then the frumma would never be able to ride public buses and subways. But they do.

So this segregation is just extra farfrumpta mishigos.

[Gevezener Chusid]

WSC: Many frum private express buses do indeed operate just for that reason: so that people can choose not to ride public transportation with its underclad women (not in the winter of course) and other unpleasantries.

I used to see nonJewish (Polish) women sitting on the Williamsburg/Boro Park bus - in the front, behind the driver. But I haven't taken the WMB/BP bus for at least 15 years now.

Maybe they are "frummer" nowadays

[Deremes]

WoolSilkCotton, i didn't say that it says in the Torah this separation. Read again and see that i said that self hating Jews cant take it that frum Jews live a Torah life.
Is it extra farfrumpta mishigos?maybe but its nobodies business how we live.

[Barry]

Deremes, it is probably criminal and certainly unethical that NY authorities allow children to be indoctrinated and conditioned to such an extent, that when they are adults they see nothing wrong in sexual segregation on buses, and submitting their children to the same indoctrination and conditioning they perpetuating their unethical behaviour

Deremes, all we ask is that Hareidim obey New York law in New York.

At least Rabbi Weingarten d'Satmar had the decency to travel to Belgium so as not to break US Laws.

[Rebitzman]

What will turn this is the publicity in the short run. "Liberal" Jewish women will ride this bus just to force the issue.

Already being planned - guarantee.

Deremes - I assure you, many folks here DO lead a "Torah life" (albeit perhaps not exactly as you might envision it). The objection is not toward you or your lifestyle, it is toward you trying to use taxpayer $'s to jam it down the throat of others. It's rather laughable that you both acknowledge the practice to be illegal AND claim that it is not......in the same post.

As others have pointed out, the separation of the sexes is not supported by Torah, but you are certainly free to do so if you feel so strongly that such speparation is necessary. Just don't use public money.

[Waiting4Moshiach]

Today it is the bus and tomorrow it is the eruv! Yidden, keep your bags packed. I hear it is better in Canada.

[SkepticalYid]

Nu, so move!

[devorah]

When I occasionally take a Red and Tan bus from Port Authority to my home, if there are no seats left, I have to sit next to a smelly chasid. You wouldn't believe the dirty looks they give me and of course, they would never give up a seat for a woman. When I leave the bus, I think I smell like the dirty chasid and have to run in and take a shower and get my suit dry cleaned. Nothing like an unbathed chasid. Do they ever cut their nose or ear hair?

[David]

Do they ever cut their nose or ear hair?

Posted by: devorah | October 26, 2011 at 02:53 PM

I have wondered that myself. I have never seen one that does. However, a few of them do trim their mustaches, mainly those who have jobs and have to interact with normal people. Most people like to see someone's mouth when they are talking and don't want to speak to "Cousin It". Incidentally, there's nothing more sickening than opening up a siddur to find a beard hair in it which has been tastefully used as a repository for fallen holy beard hairs.

[David]

Correction - its Cousin Itt, not Cousin It.

[Proton Soup]

The feckless NYS Health Commissioner, Antonia Novello (later became Surgeon General), caved in and did some Metziza B'peh of her own, as seen in these pictures:

http://www.crownheights.info/index.php?itemid=2421

Posted by: WoolSilkCotton | October 26, 2011 at 11:17 AM

that's crazy! some little boy could get hepatitis, HIV, or worse. at the very least, they should use a dental dam. everyone, most especially an M.D., knows that you never, ever, go without gloves when coming into contact with bodily fluids, and that is just on your hands!

Dr. Novello should lose her license. that is beyond incompetence. it's reckless endangerment.

[seymour]

Deremes

since you are so adamant that separating the sexes is a Torah issue can you please provide us with a reference anywhere in the Torah regarding that issue

[ultra haredi lite]

Talk about gross - one of the Gerrorist Rebbes used to go into the mikveh late Erev Yom Kippur and scoop up a cup of fetid water mixed with hair, dandruff and semen and drink it with gusto!

[WoolSilkCotton]

Proton Soup, the NYC Health Commissioner was forced by city politicians to rescind a ban on the disgusting practice.

http://www.circleaks.org/index.php?title=Thomas_R._Frieden

When Frieden issued this letter, the frumma went absolutely nuts:

http://www.nyc.gov/html/doh/downloads/pdf/std/std-bris-commishletter.pdf

http://www.nyc.gov/html/doh/html/std/std-bris.shtml

http://www.cirp.org/news/thejournalnews12-17-05/

Here is a good summary of the shameless behavior of Novello, who had also been US Surgeon General:

http://www.forward.com/articles/9654/

[Proton Soup]

wow. well if this didn't say it all:

The protocol also cites the work of Dr. Timothy Meiller, an oral-surgery expert at the University of Maryland, to support the document’s major anti-herpes measure: rinsing the mohel’s mouth with Listerine prior to the ritual. Of the experts interviewed, Meiller was the most critical of the protocol and the most emphatic that his work was misapplied. He described the Novello protocol as “saying, ‘I’m going to use some superficial technique and say I’m now okay.’ You’re not.” Asked what he would have told Novello if she had called him before using his paper, he told the Forward: “I would have said that I didn’t think it was enough data to make a decision on anything.… It’s like having unprotected sex.”

but to add insult to injury, this is often done without informed consent?!

Frieden, the city health commissioner, has voiced his own concerns. In a letter to Novello, obtained by the Forward, that was dated just a few days before she announced the protocol, Frieden stated four “fundamental concerns.” They included the lack of certain better-proven prevention methods; an investigation procedure that “implies that a community can stipulate how to conduct an investigation and may be justified in not cooperating”; an “approach to culture and molecular analysis [that] has many fundamental problems”; and “that the children of parents for whom metzitzah b’peh is not considered religiously necessary may undergo this procedure without the knowledge and/or request of both parents, and this is not addressed by your protocol.”

In an earlier letter, Frieden had written that “some parents whose infants had metzitzah b’peh say they did not know the mohel would perform it.” Jews outside of the Orthodox community often hire ultra-Orthodox mohels, but are believed to be largely unaware of the practice of direct oral suction.

[p]

if they want to self segregate what can be done

but again the driver should get involved if a woman is told to move to the back.

What happens when a man sits in the back to be amongst all those woman do they yell to go to the front, I wonder

Posted by: seymour | October 26, 2011 at 08:09 AM

This has got to stop! The solution is clear. It is high time that this be reversed and the men to be relegated to sit in the back and women to take control of the front of the bus. I highly doubt that a woman will pass up an empty seat in the front to go all the way to the back of the bus where the men are sitting.

[Adam Neira]

Well done to the officials at the NYC municipal offices. This is 2011/5772 not the Dark Ages.

[Jeff]

WoolSilkCotton, i didn't say that it says in the Torah this separation. Read again and see that i said that self hating Jews cant take it that frum Jews live a Torah life.

Yes, that's it. We're so terribly jealous we can't stand it. We all secretly wish we could wear black woolen suits in the summer and run to our rebbes every time we need permission to go to the bathroom.

Is it extra farfrumpta mishigos?maybe but its nobodies business how we live.

Posted by: Deremes | October 26, 2011 at 12:48 PM

It is absolutely our business, and everyone else's as well. It's society's business. Your way of life constitutes child abuse. Look at what it's done to you and the other frum trolls here; you're so completely out of touch with objective reality that you wouldn't recognize it if it walked up to you and introduced itself. It's toxic, and should no longer be allowed.

Plus, the segregated bus line was violating the law. I know you think goyishe laws don't apply to you - which is, again, one of the reasons the Haredi way of life can't be allowed to continue - but they do, and you have to abide by them whether or not you think you should.

[WoolSilkCotton]

Proton Soup, the same frumma who insist on the disgusting practice of Metzizah B'Peh are the ones you read about here on FM a few days ago, who will not let their babies have the hepatitis vaccine.

Deremes, if the bus company takes taxpayer money, and if the bus is accessible to the general public, and if it is under a NYC contract, they are obligated to obey the USA law against discrimination.
If it was a totally private bus, then you can make your women sit in the cargo section under the bus. I'm sure frumma women will have no objection, since they don't object to anything else.

[Deremes]

WoolSilkCotton,

How and where is the bus company taking taxpayer money?

[WoolSilkCotton]

Deremes, I listed 3 instances where they would be obligated to obey USA civil law. I should have said 'or' instead of 'and'.

[Proton Soup]

Deremes, the franchisees can use public space for bus stops.
http://www.nyc.gov/html/dot/html/permits/franinfo.shtml

seems they also get advertised as part of the public system.
http://www.mta.info/nyct/maps/busbkln.pdf

probably they get more revenue, too. though one can't be sure since everything is done in cash.

[Jeff]

No more segregation.

It's a Holocaust.