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October 16, 2011

Does Judaism Really Want Women To Step Aside For Men?

Precious Jewish Daughter- Please move to the side when a man approaches closeupThe Talmud (Horiyot 13b) indicates that the reason a man should not walk between two women has to do with the superstition that it may impair the man’s ability to remember the Torah he learned. Many haredi men are particular about this issue, even though the Code of Jewish Law and Maimonides's Mishneh Torah do not mention it.

Precious Jewish Daughter- Please move to the side when a man approaches
"Precious Jewish Daughter – Please move aside when a man approaches" Photo: FailedMessiah.com

Does Judaism want women to move over?
Talmud indicates that people who display lack of Derech Eretz are more likely to sin. Those putting up signs in Brooklyn asking woman to step aside would do well focusing on that
Rabbi Levi Brackman • Ynet

The blogosphere lit up recently with news of Yiddish language signs placed in a predominately haredi neighborhood in Brooklyn, New York, asking women to “please step aside when men walk towards you” in the street.
 
After these signs garnered tremendous media attention, city workers took down the signs saying that they were placed illegally. Media coverage of this story suggested that these sign were placed by “a hardline rabbinical group.”

The media reported that “similar signs can be seen in Hasidic strongholds like upstate (New York’s) Kiryas Joel and New Square.”

The New York Daily News quoted 18-year-old Abraham Klein as saying, "The signs don't bother anybody,” explaining that in his community “men and ladies don't go together. It's just our religion."
 
Many newspapers and blogs used this quote, thus, giving the reader the impression that the reason woman are asked to step aside for men in Hasidic communities has to do with Hasidic laws regarding modesty.
 
In fact, this tradition has to do with a passage found in the Talmud which states, “There are three who must not pass between, nor may others pass between them, and they are: a dog, a palm tree and a woman” (Pesachim 111a).
 
The Talmud (Horiyot 13b) indicates that the reason a man should not walk between two women has to do with the superstition that it may impair the man’s ability to remember the Torah he learned.
 
Tradition

Many haredi men are particular about this issue, and the custom is therefore for women to move to one side of the street when a man approaches, thus, allowing him to easily avoid walking between two women.

The great Talmudic commentator Rashi (1040-1105) makes it clear that this tradition includes the suggestion that a woman not walk between two men. Although the reason for this is less clear.

It must also be noted the neither Maimonides nor the standard Code of Jewish Law mention this tradition as codified law. In addition, many Orthodox Jews are not at all particular about this tradition.

In fact, some have speculated that it is precisely because some of the women living in this Brooklyn neighborhood are not particular about this tradition that the signs went up in the first place.

To be sure, both the traditions themselves and those who follow them should be respected. Clearly, however, if a man does not want to walk between two women, common sense (and common decency) dictates he should move to the side in order to avoid such a scenario.

Equally, if a woman would like to keep to the tradition of not walking between two men it should be she who moves out of the way to avoid having to do so. The onus to move aside should certainly be on those who keep the tradition.

Asking all Jewish women, whether they keep to this tradition or not, to move to one side when men approach on a public street in New York City has nothing to do with Jewish law or modesty. Sadly, it rather has to do with a basic lack of Menschlichkeit (Yiddish for common decency) and Derech Eretz (loosely translated as polite and considerate behavior).
 
The Talmud indicates that people, even Torah scholars, who display a lack of Derech Eretz are more likely to sin (Kiddushin 40b). Those putting up signs asking woman to move over would do well focusing on that part of the Talmud.

Rabbi Levi Brackman is co-founder and executive director of Youth Directions , a non-profit that helps youth find and succeed at their unique positive purpose in life.

The story that these signs were illegally bolted to public trees in Williamsburg, Brooklyn, New York was first published here on FailedMessiah.com and was later picked up by newspapers and television stations in New York City and around the world (often without proper attribution).

Related Post: Illegally Posted Signs Tell Hasidic Women To Step Aside To Make Way For Jewish Men.

Comments

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Debra Feldman interviewed abt Yiddish Signs
Video:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cCotAzl7TUo

On one hand, it is mentioned in the Kitzur Shulchan Aruch.
On the other, this is no different than other customs, like making a married woman keep her head shaved even though she has it fully covered, that started as fringe behaviours and are now presented as the basic halacha by some groups.
You can't reason with lunatics.

“There are three who must not pass between, nor may others pass between them, and they are: a dog, a palm tree and a woman” (Pesachim 111a).

The Talmud (Horiyot 13b) indicates that the reason a man should not walk between two women has to do with the superstition that it may impair the man’s ability to remember the Torah he learned.

what more needs to be said

this is simply insane, the said it themselves

old superstitions

thats all

Next time one of these idiots wants to make love to....sorry have sex....with their wives....the wives should hand them a picture of a dog or palm tree....better yet.....a stuffed toy dog or a toy palm tree. The she should just think about how the hell she can get out. I know.....not easy without money or an education

the brain damaged hassids find a reason for everything under the sun they are mindless morons who dont want to give up their mindless way of thinking and behaving a bunch of mindless golems robotosized automatons.

These people worship a religion that long ago exiled hashem from its world.

They can't be expected to appreciate love, generosity, derekh eretz and the other behaviors or a mature person.

They are living in the dark ages, in the ultimate golus, having gone over to the dark side many years ago.

They have more in common with the hateful fundamentalists of other religions like the Koran-worshipers, New Testament-worshipers. They worship their weird interpretation of the Torah. However, it is a farkert Torah, a Torah that denies everything that makes life worth living.

They deserve each other.

They have no portion of this world and their make believe world to come.

Hey if it works for them, why is it your problem? It didn't work for me, so I got outta there.

Or, they could just do it doggie under a palm tree and kill three birds with one stone.

Because many have no voice and it is up to us to save them from themselves.

Litvish: It ain't much better in the Litvish world, is it?

I just found out that girls are being taught that it is forbidden to get a civil marriage license! Apparently it is now halachally required to get all your medical benefits from the State as an unwed single mother....Food Stamps, Welfare, Health Insurance etc. Funny how these customs become laws when times change...

heck everyone should decide for themselves what is appropriate. Different moods for different times there is no one answer.

This is about controlling the masses for the elite at the top.

There is not such a problem to avert your gaze if you are in such a situation rather than humilate another person. Not that I see anything wrong in admiring beauty but I prefer to not leer this is not appreciated by women so I don't. But i have seen these Chassidic dopes do exactly that, leer like there is no tommorow.

Posted by: Litvish | October 16, 2011 at 09:12 AM

That is the realest comment I've read on this blog.

That talmodic rule did not prevent Rav Leib Tropper from pursuing sex with his wife and another woman (the same place, the same time)

Instead of looking at the wall and thinking about the women, try looking at the women and thinking about the wall.

++Hey if it works for them, why is it your problem? It didn't work for me, so I got outta there.++

Because they have the vote. No representation without education is a more important doctrine than no representation without taxation. People who are backwards should not have political power because political power relates to security and survival in a world where societies compete for resources.

There is a cruel and inevitable Darwinian outcome to communities which remain irrational, backward and primitive compared to those around them which Jews of all people should understand. This is an uncomfortable fact about the Darwinian aspect of human nature whose truth from a number of his posts, I notice Gevezener Chossid is as reluctant to accept as the most extreme Hareidi rebbe.

What's next? Are these wackos going to chop down all the palm trees in Miami Beach?

If it does, they better make some changes in my town where the opposite often happens.

Clearly, however, if a man does not want to walk between two women, common sense (and common decency) dictates he should move to the side in order to avoid such a scenario.

Braackmaaaaaannnn! What did your Rebbe do?!

Gevezener Chusid writes:

Hey if it works for them, why is it your problem? It didn't work for me, so I got outta there.

Because they force others to follow their rules whether they want to or not. And they break the law by doing so.

chutzpah writes:
I just found out that girls are being taught that it is forbidden to get a civil marriage license! Apparently it is now halachally required to get all your medical benefits from the State as an unwed single mother....Food Stamps, Welfare, Health Insurance etc. Funny how these customs become laws when times change...

It's a halachic requirement to commit fraud and steal from people? Which sects require this? Could this be an opportunity to RICO them out of existence?

I think that it goes deeper than that. Since they do not recognize the legitimacy of any court besides their own beis din, it has always made no difference to them whether or not a couple has a NY marriage license or any other marriage license. In years past, they may have been OK with their people getting state marriage licenses because there may have been some benefits to being married (as in tax breaks, etc.), but starting a few years back, they started advocating civil divorces (but not gittin) in order that women with children receive more in the way of benefits.

Nowadays, I think that they've gone one step further (especially in NY)---because of the "get" law, the secular courts have jurisdiction over divorces. Basically, if you are married according to NY state, you cannot get divorced according to NY state unless both parties "remove obstacles" to the other party's ability to remarry (most often, religious obstacles). If one is never married, then one does not need the secular courts to get divorced; thus, the rabbinate has complete control over the couple, primarily the wife.

I just found out that girls are being taught that it is forbidden to get a civil marriage license! Apparently it is now halachally required to get all your medical benefits from the State as an unwed single mother....Food Stamps, Welfare, Health Insurance etc. Funny how these customs become laws when times change...
UNMITIGATED BULLSHIT

this crap about not requiring a marriage license is

A LIE AND A SLANDER

Of course that's nothing new to this blog.

Sorry, Gevezener, but it's true.

About 15 years ago, I asked a friend of mine (who has strong ties to the Satmar community) why there appeared to be so many cases of agunot in her community who had agreed to a civil divorce before obtaining a get. You would have thought that maybe the first dozen or so would have been naive, but that the families of the women would eventually figure out that they shouldn't do that (i.e., they would not agree to do that for their divorcing husband and set themselves up at a disadvantage in that they would be tied to a guy who wouldn't have to support them). The answer was that it was a widespread practice among Chassidim to have a civil divorce in order to maximize state welfare benefits; on occasion, this practice would backfire on women with abusive and/or cheating husbands.

So much of the Talmud is pure conjecture. There is some gold in it, but people should always remember that it is a derivative of the Tanach.

No matter what Judaism wants, I want it. Step aside women I'm coming through.

The guy in williamsburg behind this sign posting is named Klar he lives in the Bedford gardens public housing in Williamsburg , His rents and electric & Gas is all paid by us the tax payers, he also get food stamps and never worked a day in his life , He is a vagrant that creates trouble because he has nothing better what to do with his life , he is a criminal that should be in jail

The problem is we have among us women who do not dress with proper modesty and who try to tempt men by surrounding them on the street. I know some call them "hot Channis" but it is a serious problem as the bachur does not know what to do and sometimes has to run intothe street to avoid them.
Do we wait until someone is hit by a car before we address the problem?

waiting4moshiach, I assume you are joking. Or have you been fantasizing to porn or something? Are you honestly claiming that women from Bais Rivkah are trying to trap men in the streets of Williamsburg?
By the way, I remember being taught about the walking between girls chumra as a child visiting relatives in boro park, funny to hear it being "revived" now.

Maven, unfortunately Waiting4InvisibleSkyFairy is serious. He's a diehard Kool-Aid drinker or a great POE creator.

it's not a lie or bullshit...it's something young people on shidduchim speak about on their first date. "Do you hold by a civil marriage license, would you want one?" If their opinions on it are not the same, there is no second date. Girls now do not want one because if they are supporting the family while the chosson is in kollel, the extra benefits from the State help her out tremendously, especially food stamps.

She doesn't plan for a future where she may want the Civil Courts to order the man to give her a get.

I live on the outskirts of Kyras Joel an I know that about 40% collect food stamps illegally. These are not single mothers, they are married and stealing from the govt. These people are not living in poverty, they work the system to their advantage everyday, they steal cheat and lie all in the name of God, I can only hope someone in power gets brave enough to stop them already.

It's a halachic requirement to commit fraud and steal from people? Which sects require this? Could this be an opportunity to RICO them out of existence?

I live on the outskirts of Kyras Joel an I know that about 40% collect food stamps illegally. These are not single mothers, they are married and stealing from the govt. These people are not living in poverty, they work the system to their advantage everyday, they steal cheat and lie all in the name of God, I can only hope someone in power gets brave enough to stop them already.

The problem is that it's organized crime, and it won't stop until one of the machers turns stool pigeon.

Until someone dies, I don't think the cops even care. Look at how long it took to investigate the HCA medicaid fraud and CEO Rick Scott not only walked, he's now governor of Florida.

The righteous do not prevail in America today.

Still, you think more of these clowns would have gone down with that international organ trade racket.

“There are three who must not pass between, nor may others pass between them, and they are: a dog, a palm tree and a woman” (Pesachim 111a)

How do you use an entrance (gate or door) with palms on both side? Cut one down?

How do you use an avenue or driveway lined with palm trees?

How do you care for a (biblically accurate) date orchard without walking between the trees.

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