Spinka Fraudster Could Go Back To Prison Because He Refuses To Testify Against Fellow Haredi Criminals

Two years ago, Rabbi Moshe Zigelman went to prison rather than testify against fellow Jews in a federal tax-evasion case. Now, federal prosecutors are threatening him with a return to jail unless the 64-year-old devout hasid agrees to testify before a grand jury regarding the federal government's ongoing probe of tax evasion in the Spinka hasidic sect, where Zigelman is the imprisoned rebbe's executive assistant. Zigelman claims Jewish law forbids him from testifying against a fellow Jew.

Rabbi Moshe Zigelman

Rabbi's refusal to testify could send him back to jail
Rabbi Moshe Zigelman, who has already served time for his involvement in a tax-evasion case, is refusing to testify against other Jews in the ongoing probe.
By Victoria Kim • Los Angeles Times

Two years ago, Rabbi Moshe Zigelman went to prison rather than testify against fellow Jews in a federal tax-evasion case and receive a lesser punishment.

Now, federal prosecutors are threatening him with a return to jail unless the 64-year-old devout Hasid agrees to testify before a grand jury regarding the federal government's ongoing probe of tax evasion in his Orthodox Jewish sect. On Wednesday, they will ask a judge to order him to testify or be found in contempt.

His attorney says Zigelman, a teacher of scripture and son of Holocaust survivors, will again refuse, citing his religious principles.

Zigelman's unyielding religious stance has led to attorneys wrangling in a federal courtroom over the rare intersection of the modern U.S. legal system and the ancient Jewish doctrine of mesira, a prohibition for Jews against informing on other Jews to secular authorities.

Prosecutors have said the rabbi's position is unsupported by Talmudic law, according to court papers filed by Zigelman's attorneys. Defense attorneys contend that he is again being asked to make the obvious choice between heaven and earthly jail cells, and that no prison time will be able to get Zigelman to go against his religion and face ever-lasting punishment.

"No earthly sanction will ever make Rabbi Zigelman abandon his religious precepts," Michael Proctor, an attorney for Zigelman wrote in court papers. "Imprisoning Rabbi Zigelman would be an empty, unjust act that accomplishes nothing."

Assistant U.S. Atty. Daniel O'Brien said whether Zigelman would be compelled to testify was unrelated to Jewish principles.

"Bottom line is, federal law is federal law. It's not religious law that's going to govern the court's decision," he said. O'Brien declined to discuss specifics, saying that much of the case is sealed because it involves grand jury matters.

Zigelman was arrested in 2007 for his part in a decade-long enterprise through which wealthy donors made tens of millions of dollars in contributions to Spinka, a Brooklyn-based Hasidic sect, only to have most of the money refunded through an underground money-transfer network. The donors received large tax breaks on the bogus amounts; Spinka and related charities profited through the small portion of the sums they kept.

Zigelman was the executive assistant to Grand Rabbi Naftali Tzi Weisz. In a plea agreement, he admitted to arranging the illicit donations and facilitating money transfers through an international network.

At the time of his sentencing in 2009, prosecutors noted that the belief held by Zigelman and others that "it is a sin to inform on a fellow Jew" led to difficulties in detecting rampant fraud. They asked for a heavier sentence for Zigelman compared with another defendant who cooperated, saying it was necessary to "provide an example to the community that such behavior carries with it not only enormous profits, but serious costs." He ultimately received a 24-month sentence.

After his release from federal prison this year, he was served with a subpoena to testify before a grand jury in the government's continuing investigation in the same scheme.

Experts in Jewish law said the principle of mesira originates from a time of oppressive and brutal secular authorities, and that how it applies in modern society is a topic of much controversy and debate.

Rabbi Michael Broyde, an Emory University law professor and a member of the rabbinical court Beth Din of America, said a commonly held view is that the principle doesn't apply in a just, democratic state. At its root, the concept is similar to the reluctance in black communities in the South in the early 20th century to report one of their own to authorities, the professor said.

Broyde, who was cited by attorneys on both sides in court filings, said he would be surprised if the judge allowed Zigelman to avoid having to testify.

"It's rare for a judge to accept as a bona fide claim the Jewish law prohibition of informing, in a case in which the person who's pleading that was convicted of the underlying crime," he said. "It undermines the credibility of the claim that he's not an innocent, neutral third party."

The rabbi's attorneys wrote in their papers that what matters is not whether Zigelman was correctly interpreting Jewish law, but the fact that his belief is sincere and that the rabbi, who is in failing health, will under no circumstance change his mind. Given his clear principle, finding him in contempt and sending him to jail will be "vindictive rather than coercive," they wrote.

Zigelman was born in communist Hungary to a mother who had been interred at Auschwitz and a father whose first wife and six children died in the Holocaust, according to his attorneys. After moving to Brooklyn in the 1970s, he began working for the Hasidic sect in the kitchen before eventually becoming executive assistant to the grand rabbi.

Comments

[Posek]

What's prision? (Per your title)

[avraham]

This law is never applied when it is in reference to people rabbis do not like.
In those case rabbi not are moser but encourage others to do so. Look at any divorce case in Israel or America. this whole thing is suspicious. Perhaps there are other reasons he does not want to testify?

[hatfree]

This guy isn't a rabbi because a rabbi is Jewish and he is a hasid gentile. So we Jews have no basis for discussing Spinka theology. We can only say they are goyim and that perhaps they tend to be what we call less than ethical. Treat Spinkas and Satmars etc the same as "Jews for Jesus".

Just saying.

[Waiting4Moshiach]

Dont snitch! Pray for HaShem to send us Moshiach already instead. When Moshiach comes we will not have to pay any taxes to the goyim.

[zibble]

"Zigelman was born in communist Hungary to a mother who had been interred at Auschwitz and a father whose first wife and six children died in the Holocaust..."

An unfortunate but understandable reason why many chassidic survivors do not trust the government and will not be moser. The laws against mesirah largely developed in societies where there was official government persecution of Jews, confiscation of property, etc. Most (all?) ghetto chassidic communities still do not understand the many differences between Czarist Russia or Eastern Europe and the USA, particularly the system of laws that apply to all and the justice system which at least ideally is applied without prejudice.

[seymour]

His attorney says Zigelman, a teacher of scripture and son of Holocaust survivors, will again refuse, citing his religious principles.

no he is not a religious man since he committed fraud he proved ho is not religions and if he does then he is just picking and choosing what to follow and what what not to follow

and old frumma trick when they get caught with their hand in the cookie jar

at least the reform and conservative never use the Jewish religious in such a shameful manner.
again the ultra orthodox are adding fuel to the antisemitic fire like no secular could

when they invoke religion to flaunt US law

[seymour]

Posted by: zibble | September 07, 2011 at 06:49 AM

however the younger generation today still scream the same therefore you reason does not fly

in addition once it is based on something written somewhere, the ultra frum will never ever change since todays generation cannot know more than the previous generation and you try to change a law you are a kofer

and no matter how a more enlightened rebbie will try to explain a halcha in rational sense it has no effect of them

they are willing to sacrifice their children because of that

meziza pei

[WoolSilkCotton]

Favorite frumma shtick, roll out the Holocaust when you get caught committing a crime.

The frumma are clueless as to how low a tactic that is, and how it undermines all efforts at Holocaust education and remembrance.

[junarchist]

Tax evasion is the most "patriotic" thing anyone could do....just dont get caught

[Isa]

Being thrown in jail for refusing to testify may be the lesser of all 'evils' I believe he would only be in jail for the duration of the Grand Jury.
If this guy does testify then he runs the risk of later being charged with perjury, which carries a sentence [I believe] up to 5 years.

Remember that baseball player Clemmins[?] see that as an example

[David]

Most (all?) ghetto chassidic communities still do not understand the many differences between Czarist Russia or Eastern Europe and the USA, particularly the system of laws that apply to all and the justice system which at least ideally is applied without prejudice.

Posted by: zibble | September 07, 2011 at 06:49 AM

That's because they refuse to educate their children, thus making them unemployable and unable to think or function and dependent upon their Rebbes. And so, the cycle continues...

[R. Wisler]

On "Zibble's" comment:
. The laws against mesirah largely developed in societies where there was official government persecution of Jews, confiscation of property, etc.

I ask (in total ignorance of conditions in Europe during the 19th and early20th centuries):

Is it possible that these "official government persecutions" were because the Jewish establishments in those countries were dishonest and corrupt? Is the corruption that we see in chassidic institutions in North America something that didn't exist in Europe? Did the Jewish institutions in those days not pay taxes, cheat in dealings with gentiles, amass corrupt wealth without regard to the surrounding gentile populations or were the Jewish communities honest, straightforward and hated without cause?

[MarkfromShortHills]

It would be an outrage if anyone's professedly sincere religious belief could justify his or her refusal to observe the provisions of the criminal law. And it is the height of arrogance for Zigelman to say "I will never agree to obey the law and it is therefore unjustifiably vindictive for you to punish me for my refusal". Let him be re-incarcerated and let him pay a price for his outrageous behavior.

[Askan]

Is he a rebbe? YES. Does he have followers? YES. Is he "holy"? IF YOUR HIS CHASID-YES. Did he commit a crime? UNFORTUNALLY YES.

But he is a tzaddik. Truth is I'm not at all a follower of him or any rebbe. To be honest, I dislike them and their movements. But let's face reality-"wrong happens". Not only that- he admitted! And furthermore- he doesn't want anyone else to get harmed. That's respectable! He isn't a federal agent! He shouldn't rat on anyone else! May god, freedom and justice be with him.

[seymour]

Posted by: R. Wisler | September 07, 2011 at 08:47 AM

that halacha goes way back even into rambam times and the Talmud

in a time that we we where persecuted

your question is a valid one since as per the religion we are supposed to be separate and as per the religion goyim are not equal to us we are chosen by god

and as per the Torah itself we where not exactly the nicest people to deal with we conquered and burned villages to the ground

the age old question what came first the chicken or egg

[Askan]

Is he a rebbe? YES. Does he have followers? YES. Is he "holy"? IF YOUR HIS CHASID-YES. Did he commit a crime? UNFORTUNALLY YES.

But he is a tzaddik. Truth is I'm not at all a follower of him or any rebbe. To be honest, I dislike them and their movements. But let's face reality-"wrong happens". Not only that- he admitted! And furthermore- he doesn't want anyone else to get harmed. That's respectable! He isn't a federal agent! He shouldn't rat on anyone else! May god, freedom and justice be with him.

[jancsipista]

he is an endetzadik separate the dik.

[seymour]

Posted by: Askan | September 07, 2011 at 09:00 AM

maybe you are not familiar with the long history of spinka and fraud.

I do
smuggling
nursing homes scandal

just to name two should i go on

[seymour]

Posted by: Askan | September 07, 2011 at 09:04 AM

did he do something wrong yes did he eat traif yes

still a tzazzik ?

[HURT]

I cant even believe that people even think that he should testify against other Jews, shame on you disgusting animals, you guys are constantly busy promoting the American (un)justice system do you promote your faith as much as the legal system? typical self hating Jews like failed messiah that had no good luck in their entire life and their only satisfaction is to see other people suffer.
Rabbi Zigelman I want to encourage you to stay strong and hashem will help you that you will be acquitted soon.
shame on the US justice system! you can get away with murdering innocent children by plea of insanity but if you trick them with tax you end your life for ever? this is the worst country in the world with the least Democracy other social country's if you steal you pay back period if you kill you go to jail period.

[seymour]

Rabbi Zigelman the holy one has been in jail and will go to jail i guess his luck is fantastic

he is simple a crook just like his relatives who where involved the nursing home scandal and the spinka rebbie who was caught smuggling watched

you are a shanga to very single Jew

let him rot in prison for shaming the Jewish tradition of hight ethics.

and to think that you and people on vin still think he is a tzaddiuk, proves that the frum have lost any attachment to ethics it is simply one big criminal enterprise

can't the frum ever have any shame and admit one of ours is a crook we condemn him? we will institute programs so this does not happen again instead of going nuts because a girl dress sleeve is 1/4 inch above her elbow

if you steal you pay back that is all

why not just steal which of course seems to be ok with many frum, since all I suffer if pay back, you cannot lose I say this as a child of a holocaust

go back where you came from your actions and attitudes will create an environment for antisemitism to grow

safe us all go back

go

[Simple Jew]

B"H

This horrible justice system shows how low and nasty they can be.

IY"H he will be strong and not testify against a fellow yid no matter what.

How come when the government does this it is legal but if an individual in the US did the exact same thing (threaten to kidnap someone and lock them in a cage) they would be charged with extortion or blackmail?

[Anne O'Nimmus]

It all seems rather mafia like. Perhaps the courts should look further into this extra-legal Jewish law to discover how many other aspects or rules are also mafia like. Maybe they'd find out it's also ok (or expected?) to defraud the US taxpayers, since most of them aren't the same religion? Either way, as a US citizen who should abide by the laws of the country, he should certainly spend more time inside for protecting other criminals from the conswquences of their actions.

[seymour]

Posted by: Simple Jew | September 07, 2011 at 10:49 AM

shocking a frum Jew should cheat lie steal and then all on a sudden I am religions

bs he is not religions he is a crook

simple that is all he is only using religion to get out punishment

what a shame

[Barry]

The prohibition against Mesirah has nothing to do with persecution but with the refusal of Hareidim to regard on-Jews as having de jure (as opposed to de facto) jurisdiction over them. This is not unique to Jews. In medieval societies, the clergy had their own system of courts and law outside that of their kings laws. The clergy of course recognized that the kings law was legitimate when applied against the lay population however they and the king recognized that it did not apply to them. Likewise in medieval times, Ghetto Jews were subject to laws administered by the Kehilla. The law one is subject to is a reflection of to whom loyalty is owed. It was only with the coming of the Enlightenment that it was thought right that every citizen was subject to the same law.

You may remember the Ehrenfeld case where Rachel Ehrenfeld, a United States citizen published a book on terrorist financing, which asserted that Khalid bin Mahfouz and his family provided financial support to Islamic terrorist groups. The book was not published in Britain, however 23 copies of her book had been purchased online through web sites registered in the UK. Mahfouz used the purchase of those 23 copies as a basis allow him locus standi to sue Ehrenfeld in the British courts for libel. UK libel laws are much stricter than US libel laws. Ehrenfeld had no connection to the UK and had no assets there. Mahfouz however intended to enforce the UK judgement in the US under a treaty for the mutual enforcement of civil judgements.

People can understand that different nations have different ideas as to what is or should be considered libellous. Just as it is understandable that the UK insists that one drives on the left. What however was outrageous in the Ehrenfeld case was that a court of a foreign nation was seeking jurisdiction over a US citizen over actions taken in the US! Its as if a UK court ordered the New Yorkers must now drive on the left as in London! Ehrenfeld was therefore entitled to return the UK judgement to the judge who issued it together with a hand mirror, a tube of lubricant and detailed instructions of where he should put it.

Hareidi jurisprudence is based on the medieval ghetto. They opposed the enlightement value of equality before the law. They wanted to keep their laws and courts to which alone they owed loyality. True Jews live in Jewland as a Spinka chossid pointed out. They regard the authority of the US over them as the same way that an Irish Nationalist regards British legal authority in Northern Ireland. Just as no self respecting Irish Nationalist would go to the Northern Irish police (as it would suggest that British authority was legitimate in Northern Ireland), no Jew should ever go to the Feds as it would suggest US executive, legislative and judicial legitimacy over them. Just because a Irish Nationalist has no power to stop the British Police and courts seeking him out, that does not mean he should seek them out! His seeking them out (or assisting them in any way) implies recognition of legitimacy and is considered collaboration.

The same goes for the Palestinians in Lebanon. Both the Palestinians and Lebanese accept that Lebanese law does not apply to Palestinians in their camps/ghettoes. For a Palestinian to suggest otherwise would be considered traitorous to their self identity as a nation in exile.

Ziegelman should have the guts to tell the court that he does not see himself as subject to the laws and courts of the USA, but only that of Jewland and that unless he is immediately discharged the USA will face the military might of Jewland.

[FM Fan]

Question, who was the rebbe/chassid who molested a girl repeatedly on an overseas flight?

[seymour]

Ziegelman should have the guts to tell the court that he does not see himself as subject to the laws and courts of the USA, but only that of Jewland and that unless he is immediately discharged the USA will face the military might of Jewland.

Posted by: Barry | September 07, 2011 at 11:02 AM

he would never say that since him and followers do not want to say that

then they would be saying we do not want and program money for our people but that they want

[Deremes]

++Rabbi Zigelman the holy one has been in jail and will go to jail i guess his luck is fantastic

he is simple a crook just like his relatives who where involved the nursing home scandal and the spinka rebbie who was caught smuggling watched

you are a shanga to very single Jew

let him rot in prison for shaming the Jewish tradition of hight ethics.

and to think that you and people on vin still think he is a tzaddiuk, proves that the frum have lost any attachment to ethics it is simply one big criminal enterprise

can't the frum ever have any shame and admit one of ours is a crook we condemn him? we will institute programs so this does not happen again instead of going nuts because a girl dress sleeve is 1/4 inch above her elbow

if you steal you pay back that is all

why not just steal which of course seems to be ok with many frum, since all I suffer if pay back, you cannot lose I say this as a child of a holocaust

go back where you came from your actions and attitudes will create an environment for antisemitism to grow

safe us all go back
go

Posted by: seymour | September 07, 2011 at 10:29 AM++

It is being said jokingly while Zigelman was in Otisville that he is the only frum Jew sitting that is really innocent.

The man was the spinka rebbes Gabai(personal assistant).He didn't gain anything and wasn't involved fully with the money laundering. He was a dirt poor person then and still is. The judge showed compassion and understood all of it.
Anyone who knows this man personally will say what a righteous person he is.Off course he was in prison becuase the law is the law but he is very far from a criminal.

Seymour,i have a hunch that you are on public assistance programs not all the way legal and i also have a slight hunch that you are an extremely evil person in your personal life full of jealousy on any human being and especial on any observant Jew.You are a shanda for your parents and for humanity.
If i am wrong,i apologize.

[amy ginsberg]

Dinah malchut dinah.

[who knows]

There is a multitude of reasons why people refuse to testify. The reason that Ziegelman chose to state to the world is one of the worst that I've ever heard. This thief pretends to be doing his evil thing for religious reasons and he casts his evil on all Jews and on Judaism. The antisemites could not have done more harm then this false "tzaddik" does.

[jancsipista]

theese hassidim are brain damaged from all the years in yeshiva learning toireh oy gevalt

[seymour]

Posted by: Deremes | September 07, 2011 at 12:28 PM

blah blah blah i attack frum people who steal cheat and ven more i attack people liek you you can still look and say that all thse crooks are great tzaddikum

how could they be they laundered money

amazing how the frum will simply not aknolege that some of there cheat lie scam the system even when they admit they did it

the frum will not concede that he was scammer

and it anybody calls them out

all they know how to do is attack

[Deremes]

A real tzadik of a person.He would rather go to prison then informing on other fellow Jews.We should all be proud to have him among us.A true Torah Jew we should all follow in his footsteps.
Be strong, Rabbi Zigelman and keep your head high.

[OMG]

Posted by: WoolSilkCotton | September 07, 2011 at 08:07 AM

I would agree to some extent, that there is no logical or legal advantage to dredge up the holocaust. On the other hand, our system is setup that a person doesn’t have to testify in front of a grand jury, but it come with a possible incarceration as long as the grand jury is impaneled. The legal justification for incarceration is trying to coercive, but not as a penalty for not testifying. Ala Susan McDougal, where the court eventually released her from prison citing the after all the time she was in jail she still didn’t testify, therefore, the court can extrapolate, she will never testify, and keep her in jail would amount as a penalty, not coercive, and they released her. The same could be said in this case, that the lawyer is laying a foundation that his client will never testify due to religious beliefs; therefore, they should not incarcerate him, interesting legal maneuver.

[Shmarya]

A real tzadik of a person.He would rather go to prison then informing on other fellow Jews.We should all be proud to have him among us.A true Torah Jew we should all follow in his footsteps.
Be strong, Rabbi Zigelman and keep your head high.

Posted by: Deremes | September 07, 2011 at 02:15 PM

Yes, continue your chillul Hashem, Zigelman.

Ignore the fact that there are major poskim who hold that mesira does not apply when non-Jews know that you have information about actual crimes that were committed, and that even more poskim hold that way when your knowledge of the information is itself public knowledge.

Also ignore the smaller group of poskim who hold there is no mesira in a democracy where Jews and non-Jews are basically equal.

Yes, ignore all that.

Ignore the damage you do to Jews all over the world.

And listen to am haratzim like Deremes, who couldn't paskin his way out of a paper bag if his very life depended on it.

Stay that course, Zigelman.

Stay the course.

[Deremes]

Posted by: seymour | September 07, 2011 at 02:11 PM

You know nothing about this man besides what it says in the article. And in the article itself it says:
""At the time of his sentencing in 2009, prosecutors noted that the belief held by Zigelman and others that "it is a sin to inform on a fellow Jew" led to difficulties in detecting rampant fraud. They asked for a heavier sentence for Zigelman compared with another defendant who cooperated, saying it was necessary to "provide an example to the community that such behavior carries with it not only enormous profits, but serious costs." He ultimately received a 24-month sentence."

Which means they wanted and still want to break him to testify against other Jews as another defendant did. They want to make sure that frum Jews should stop with the Mesira thing and should inform on other Jews as some frum Jews did unfortunately.
But Zigelman is a true Jew who follows the Torah and would not make his hands bloody to put another Jew in prison becuase its real Mesira.

[Deremes]

"Posted by: Shmarya | September 07, 2011 at 02:27 PM"

Mesira just in case you didn't know is NOT a cut and dry halacha.Its an extremely sensitive halacha.
Each case is different and can not be paskent by itself and it needs to be asked of a competent rov who got his knowledge true learning and NOT by goggling. An individual who is in a position to inform or not to inform can not pasken on his own from a Shala Itshuva sefer.

Mesira IS mesira even in today's days.
This position is held by most if not by ALL accepted noted rabaonim. Maybe back in the olden days it was worse for jews to be in prison. But still prison is prison and when getting out of prison even today's days its required to make the Birchas Hagomel.

Damage to Jews are doing the ones who inform on other Jews.
I bet the prosecutor in this case is saying:gee look at this Jewish man how loyal he is to his religion and wont rat on his fellow Jew like the other scumbag defendant did to save his ass.

Damage to Jews are doing the ones who make sure that anything that happens amongst Jews the world to know about it.Making sure that people shouldn't think that observant Jews are good people but they are nothing but cheats,rapists,child molesters.

[seymour]

Damage to Jews are doing the ones who make sure that anything that happens amongst Jews the world to know about it.Making sure that people shouldn't think that observant Jews are good people but they are nothing but cheats,rapists,child molesters.

Posted by: Deremes | September 07, 2011 at 03:02 PM

the frum can do it by themselves very well without anybodies help.

FM is just reposting this story all the gentile can read this and see a frum person is a criminal but then saying I cannot comply with the law because I am very religious person

what happened to his religion when he decided to scam

oh I forgot that is not against halcha so it is ok

stop scamming take some responsibility when someone commits a crime show some shame or humility do not make it that every time a frumma gets convicted he is suffering only because he is a Jew and many others like me

would have nothing to say

but when you go to other frum sites and they are hailing this convict as a tzattick

normal people want to throw up no shame for what he did, no shame from the community, no reprimand

basically the gentiles see exactly what you and others think

he did nothing wrong nothing at all

and they know exactly what frum people think

they should be immune from any prosecution from a secular court

they know it the us government know it

everybody knows it

you guys really think you are so special that the rules and laws of society do not apply to you

nobody else does FYI

[Deremes]

seymour,
You full of shit and have no clue what youre blabbing.

In any case:
Have you ever scammed the government or anyone else?

[chnoch]

listen to you all going on and on about this rabbi and jew worrying about jew. on the other hand we, the jewish people have to watch and read about olmert and his snotty shula zaken who appear to be base people without morals and ethics. zaken has chosen not to speak out against olmert.She must be very hardei if its because jews do not give evidence against each other.[if this is her reason to be silent]be moderate in what you do then sanity perhaps will prevail.

[seymour]

seymour,
You full of shit and have no clue what youre blabbing.

In any case:
Have you ever scammed the government or anyone else?

Posted by: Deremes | September 07, 2011 at 03:23 PM
chnoch

you see I am right since you attack with no substance an old heridei trick

of course i scam but since i left the herdie community i got much smarter like the refom and consecutive jews and learned how to do it without getting caught

herdiem are simple stupid

the gemaruah makes them stupid

otherwise they would be like the secular and reform Jews and not get caught. how many reform and conservative yeshivas are caught in scandals, 1 2 maybe 3.

of course the reason can only be they are clever smarter than the herdeim, since of course they scam to

you guy are simple dummies

prove there is no such thing as a gemurah kop.

to bad again the herdeim get caught with theri hands in the cookie jar and want to blame verybodt and everything but the convict himselve

smr tzattick
his family many convicted felons tzaddikum
rav pinter tzattick twice convicted felon
old spinka rebbie convicted in the nursing home scandal tzaddiuk

tell me how much scamming does a frum person have to do before you will take away the title of rav rebbie or tzaddik

nobody is saying that there is no crime amongst the secular reform of conservatives Jews of course there is.

The difference is they get condemned in their community they will lose there honor or title in their communities.
they need to show repentance to get back in good with the community and or shul. they are not considered jailed Jews just jailed criminal

not so with the frum

never ever really guilty
blame others
learn many lesson from the incident but never learn that one must not steal of commit fraud.
look at him as being jailed as Jew and jailed for only that reason

or if begrudgingly realize he did something wrong
say

nebech he only did it to feed his family

that is the diffidence

the frum i do not think have ever admitted that one of them or their leaders ever committed fraud

there is aways some excuse.

why is it that others do it too not a good reason for doing others things like eating treif

what would you say if the spinka guy would say I ate a McDonald cheese burger why not Seymour does would you except that?

I am sure you won't

therefore it should not be excepted in financial crimes either

not sure why the frum take financial crimes so lightly

[Deremes]

++Defense attorneys contend that he is again being asked to make the obvious choice between heaven and earthly jail cells, and that no prison time will be able to get Zigelman to go against his religion and face ever-lasting punishment.++

What a tzadik of a person that NO prison time will make him go against another Jew.
Yep,Judaism is not bankrupt yet.
What a kiddish hashem hes making.
And we need to show him for generations to come as an example of what a true Jew is how someone didn't want to make his hand bloody with another Jews blood.

I would never want to be in this position for i don't know if i could be this strong. But i envy his Zechusim.

[Navin]

Great Kiddush Hashem, I would gladly sit a few months for him, keep it up holy Rabbi.

[buck44]

So I guess that the commenters here who feel that he is right to refuse would have no problem if a judge in a different case based his ruling on Sharia.

[Navin]

Seymore!!! interesting that the reform community accepted you without even knowing how to spell.

[Skepticalyid]

Deremes: you are so full of crap it leaks out your ears. The Satmar succession is being fought in federal court. That's two of your so-called holy Tzadikkim who are duking it out in a secular court.

Apparently in your thinking a jew can defraud the government and thus the rest of us and get away with the full support of the jewish community exploiting halachot of messiah but if there's money at stake within a dynasty the courts are there to be used to full advantage.

This isn't the shtetl in Europe. Rabbis here to NOT have a right to create a theocratic system of justice that supersedes the secular courts anymore then Catholics or Muslims can.

[jancsipista]

Deremes-kenst gayn vishen dain tohes mit dain toreh lernen in mit dayne gantze toire di faltshe farrikter farbisener nar.

[seymour]

Seymore!!! interesting that the reform community accepted you without even knowing how to spell.

Posted by: Navin | September 07, 2011 at 05:53 PM

reform Jews are more enlightened and again not as dumb as heriem

there are more worldly and have seen many studies that their is no correlation between intelligence and spelling or lack thereof and my i say typing

if the frum people can say what this guy is doing is a kidush hashem then frumkeit has lost all moral fiber

religion should not be used to commit crime perpetrate crimes and hide criminals

mesira has been turned into a protection racket for frum criminals

if he truly cared about Judaism and how it looks to the world and to other citizens of this country without making Jewish law a laughing stock trying to use religion as a get out of jail card

he would have simply said I committed a crime I paid my dues but I am not a rat

[Flatbusher]

9/11 is coming up... imagine if a Muslim would say "I can't testify as to a conspirator who laundered their money, as it is against my religion.. my Imam and my Ummah does not allow it..."

We have to be careful re the other 299,500,000 people in America, who are not Ultra Orthodox Jews.

They react to this Spinka / Klinka same (or even worse, as AntiSemitism in Christianity is built in) and could bring a big Churban & Chillull Hashem.

In addtion the USA will find other ways... to get their man or woman....

[Pagan]

"This Constitution ... shall be the supreme Law of the Land". That's what the US constitution says, plain as day. Anyone who does not accept that principle should automatically forfeit his US citizenship and be deported. Preferably by being flown beyond the twelve-mile limit and pushed out the door.

Do not let the religious poison of Old Europe infect your free society.

[Adams]

the thread of the week.
Seymour I think Deremis and them are just winding you up. Or is the indoctrination ?
Kiddush HaShem is going too far already.

['Yechiel']

I believe that no one should rat anyone to the corrupt judicial system with the ONLY exception if US citizens may be in danger of physical harm. The government should not coerce anyone to do so. You FBI lowlifes! get off your fat behinds and WORK for a change. Don't expect people to come to an all time low and rat on their fellow human beings.
וכל הרשעה כעשן תכלה כי תעביר ממשלת זדון
The judicial system in most of the western 'enlightened' world is corrupt. Money matters are penalized heavier than those involving human life.
Money matters should never involve jail. Period.

['Yechiel']

And no, I do not condone crookery. It is NOT OK to steal, cheat and lie. The punishment, however, should fit the crime.

[Adam Neira]

He doesn't have to testify but he then must face the consequences of his actions.

Mar Samuel stated in his interpretation of Jeremiah's prophecies that we are commanded to "Seek the welfare of the nation you dwell in !" i.e. The better the patriot the better the Jew.

[SkepticalYid]

@Yechiel: so you'd let a Madoff free without jail time? After all, it's only "money matters" The fact that stealing huge amounts of money results in poverty and sometimes death isn't worth of jail time? If someone stole your identity and you lost your credit, 401k and house- they shouldn't go to jail? it's just "money matters?"
Are you really that corrupt or are you just incapable of thinking?

[tucsonjew]

Italian mob called it "Omerta" silence. Didn't work for them,why should it work for Orthos?