« 9-11 And The Freeing Of World Trade Center Agunot | Main | Judaism Against Women »

September 12, 2011

Comments

Feed You can follow this conversation by subscribing to the comment feed for this post.

Adam Neira

I disagree with Rabbi Yona Metzger and Rabbi Shlomo Amar on this point. Why ? Because the IDF is such a vital organ of the state certain philosophies and principles should be adhered to. The overarching philosophy and plan for the Jewish people is the superset to the IDF's orientation. Philosophy first. Public policy second.

I also think the good Rabbis are trying to appease their religious base and are attempting a bit of mediation and peacemaking which is honourable. But sometimes you need to just completely shift to a different position quickly. Equivocation like fence sitting can be painful. Like a pregnancy that is over term, things need to be induced decisively to usher in a new paradigm.

Also I can't for the life of me find any immodesty or darkness in the idea that a woman would sing a nice song in a spirit of spiritual uplift in a mixed group. There are female opera singers no ?

I am sure that King David would have listened to female singers, as Moses would have done so in the Sinai under the stars. What a drab, austere world we will have if men and women can't enjoy certain things together.

P.S. I have commented elsewhere on FM about the danger of corruption of certain command and control structures, and for brevity sake will not repeat myself here. I shouldn't clutter up the FM pages or else I'll get in trouble from Shmarya and be banished to the badlands of cyberspace.

ultra haredi lite

Adam,
Actually in the desert, after the splitting of the Sea we find that Miriam the Prophetess led the women in separate singing. Your poetic conjecture about Moses and King David is utter rubbish.
As an aside, for the life of me I can't figure out why they can't allow the religious soldiers to respectfully walk out if a female is singing? You may disagree with the halacha, but if that is their sensitivity then respect it! You would respect halal if you had an arab soldier, or the careful diet of a vegan so why not this halacha?
The IDF has to make up its mind, if you want religious soldiers to join respect their halacha, if not then don't use it as a political linchpin.

ultra haredi lite

Adam,
what a drab and austere world if...
orgies are prohibited
crab is off limits
you can't feed your enemies to a lion
etc

I'm from missouri

Why not give them standard issue army earplugs?

David

Instead of the IDF focusing on finding a way for supposedly frunma soldiers to be prevented from hearing women singing, I wish they would focus on finding a way for supposedly frumma people to fight.

David

The frumma in the above picture - presuming they will ever be another movie in the Star Wars franchise - could they be used in the next bar scene? http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_detailpage&v=UAGfC0Ktb5Q

Yes! I think they could!

semour

Posted by: ultra haredi lite | September 12, 2011 at 07:33 AM

did the Torah say and or command how far the men had to stay so not to listen to the woman. Did the Torah say their that it was auusur to listen to the woman sing, no. Did the Torah say the men ran away not to here kol isha no?

therefore one can assume that the men just looked om and enjoyed the show.

Of course one can infer whatever one wants since we see do not cook a calf with the milk of its mother somehow means to separate dishes

I think we must call the frummas bluff otherwise the yeshiva boys will just have another lame excuse why they do not join the army

instead of facing the real reason, they are scared
wimpy, and do not want to get hurt

who knows

Ok, Chief Rabbi Amar and Chief Rabbi Metzger are lying. Why this suppose to be news for anybody? We all have seen them shamelessly and publicly dozen of times before.

who knows

Ok, Chief Rabbi Amar and Chief Rabbi Metzger are lying. Why this suppose to be news for anybody? We all have seen them doing it shamelessly and publicly dozen of times before.

Dave

Cut out the women's tongues or cut the ears off the soldiers heads. Lovely Rabbis on the Planet.

WoolSilkCotton

What a tough fighting force the IDF has become.

The sound of women singing will send them fleeing in a panic. All the Arab armies have to do is blast a recording over a loudspeaker of a woman singing, and the battle is over. Pathetic.

If, G-d forbid, another 1967 or 1973 scenario occurs, Israel is done, thanks to the new improved IDF that has to be politically correct so as not to offend the frumma.

jancsipista

soon everything including masturbation will be of limits:)

Survivor

I "love" how those who never served, think they have any right to dictate in any aspect. Same for for presidency. I respected Bush for his service in the military. I lack that respect for Obama. How can one send others over sea to fight, when they have never stepped foot onto a military base, as a soldier? If a woman is singing in the presence of sensitive ears, wear some ear plugs, and get over it.

Betzalel

I agree with the Haredi on this one. Why should anyone be forced to listen to someone sing? And what if the woman has a bad voice? Then that might fit the definition of torture.

danny

Is it customary for Rabbis and Generals to exchange gifts like shofars and silver pomegranates?

That seems mighty improper to me. The army, being an organ of the state, should be prohibited from receiving/exchanging goodies. It also seems highly idolatrous. WTF?

semour

Posted by: Survivor | September 12, 2011 at 10:56 AM
Betzalel

bush was not in the army

what are you talking about

WoolSilkCotton

++I respected Bush for his service in the military.++

I assume you are only referring to Bush Sr.

Did every war time president serve in the military?

Remember Cheney's quote "I had other priorities in the '60s than military service"?

Survivor

Yes, George W. Bush was in the military. Also, the military is not defined as the "Army." The Army is a branch within the military.

Gevezener Chusid

halacha is halacha. men are not supposed to listen to women singing, whether it turns them on or not. "kol isha erva"

In the so-called Jewish state, those who want to observe real halachos (not like the ridiculous shit about women on the bus) should be accommodated by public institutions.

Just because you (and I for that matter) don't care much about halacha, doesn't mean that we should dictate our mores to those who do, any more than they should control us.

semour

Posted by: Gevezener Chusid | September 12, 2011 at 12:14 PM

it is a Jewish state based on Jewish traditions and not halacha

Just because they define Judaism as followers of rabbinical laws (not Torah laws) does not mean they should tell the country how they should define their Jewishness and how the country is run or run the army

even more so since they give so little to the state and ask so much

ultra haredi lite

Seymour,
Try not to be a thoughtless knee-jerk anti charedi attack dog.
If you hate halacha that's your business, but let me break something unpleasant to you. There are hundreds of thousands of Yidden who's guide is halacha and the majority of halachic opinions states that a man should not listen to a woman singing live. So if you really want Charedim to join the military, at least give them the option of respectfully leaving when a woman is singing.
is that too much to ask, or are you so consumed with hatred that you can't imagine respecting a differing opinion? Are you that closeminded?

ultra haredi lite

Seymour,
Your assumption that the men just enjoyed the show is based upon faulty logic as well. Try to follow if you can, if it is permitted for men to listen to women sing live, then why not just join them? Why sing separate?

who knows

UHL, halacha is not an opinion. I respect opinions as they could be taken in account and ignored if necessary. Halacha on the other hand, just like sharia is a leagal code that requires absolute obedience.

So don't play this game, it is not about respecting different opinion. It is about submission.

Chutzpah

"If you want" charedim to "join" the military? Fuck that. They should all be drafted and made to serve and provided with only "reasonable" accomodations to their religion. The free ride out of the military must end for the religious, both male and female. Why should some learn while others die? Everyone serves and then you can do what you want on your free time.

Azri

First, military organizations are premised upon discipline and command and control. The activity of which the "rebbes" complained was a military exercise which just so happened to have women singing secular songs in a choir. In any military organization, soldiers give up certain liberties, whether voluntarily or obligatorily. G-d gave the frummies hands, which just so happen to fit quite comfortably and conveniently over one's ears. I suggest that next time such soldiers, who serve voluntarily because they are frumma, are placed in a situation where they are exposed to female vocalists within a military exercise, they need to understand that they are not seated at their rebbe's tisch; rather, they are part of a military unit. They have no personal ability to get up and walk out without permission of their commanding officer, as such is generally prohibited. To do so erodes the cohesion necessary for the sound operation of a military organization. The rebbes, who are quick to shout outrage over the IDF for exposing yeshiva boys to the sound of a woman's voice, but produce less than a whimper over a rabbi's book which certifies the "kashruth" of murdering gentiles, have little to no credibility. If the defense of Israel was left to them, there would be no Israel today.
Second, Israel, as the "Jewish State" is a misnomer. While it has certainly become such in more recent years, under the mismanagement, neglect and unabashed chutzpah of Bibi Netanyahu, the term is derived from Hetzl's pamphlet, "Der Juden Stadt," which in English is properly translated to, not the Jewish State, but "the state of the Jews." Herzl's Zionism was premised on the best of Nineteenth Century egalitarian nationalism; not on messianic intervention. Weitzman, as Israel's first President, gave purpose to Herzl's vision when he observed that when a Jewish police officer arrests a Jewish prostitute and brings her before a Jewish judge, then there will truly be a Jewish state. Weitzman's point was that Israel is to be a modern, open and egalitarian body politic... concepts which the frumma, as well as the Russians and West Bank Settlers, exploit for their own benefit while at the same time reject.
Finally, while Obama was neither drafted nor did he volunteer for military service, his patriotism is far and away greater than Dubya's. Upon his graduation from Columbia University, Obama worked as a community organizer and actually lived among American working poor to better their lives and empower them to confront exploitative business and indifferent politicians. Dubya's daddy, a US Congressman at the time, wrangled his son a officer's commission in the Texas Air National Guard, a prime plume for "legal" draft evaders and in return his son frittered his away his time by getting drunk, going AWOL and working on political campaigns in Alabama.

WoolSilkCotton

++Yes, George W. Bush was in the military.
Posted by: Survivor | September 12, 2011 at 11:52 AM++

Wow, did you drink the Kool-Aid.

W's 'service' in the 'military' (don't want to get you riled up again with the definition) was a joke, and an obvious draft dodge.

http://awolbush.com/

Genossa Maximillian

If the Government of Israel keeps caving in to the demands of the Haredi, they may as well change their name to Haredi Republic of Israel

Friar Yid

Ultra Lite,

what a drab and austere world if...
orgies are prohibited
crab is off limits
you can't feed your enemies to a lion
etca

That you would equate eating a piece of seafood or hearing a woman sing with orgies or lion-feeding is precisely why there is such a giant gap between the hard-line Haredi/dati communities and the rest of the Jewish people. You should live however you please and avoid whatever sins you wish, but suggesting that hearing a song is no different from an orgy is stupid reasoning par excellence.

Some of us have joined the 21st century. Feel free to visit anytime.

Verify your Comment

Previewing your Comment

This is only a preview. Your comment has not yet been posted.

Working...
Your comment could not be posted. Error type:
Your comment has been posted. Post another comment

The letters and numbers you entered did not match the image. Please try again.

As a final step before posting your comment, enter the letters and numbers you see in the image below. This prevents automated programs from posting comments.

Having trouble reading this image? View an alternate.

Working...

Post a comment

Your Information

(Name and email address are required. Email address will not be displayed with the comment.)

6a00d83451b71f69e201b8d1656462970c-250wi

FailedMessiah.com in the Media