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September 20, 2011

"Haredi" Anti-Evolution "Exhibit" Opens Tomorrow On NYC's Upper West Side

JPAC Anti-Evolution Exhibit 9-20-11 "Wednesday afternoon on the upper westside on Manhattan,home to New yorks largest secular Jewish community will witness a scene never seen anywhere before. Young Chareidi activists will display stuffed animals with their babys and cubs to proove evolution is a myth."

JPAC Anti-Evolution Exhibit 9-20-11

Here is the exact text complete with typos sent to me along with the above photo by JPACNY:

Wednesday afternoon on the upper westside on Manhattan,home to New yorks largest secular Jewish community will witness a scene never seen anywhere before. Young Chareidi activists will display stuffed animals with their babys and cubs to proove evolution is a myth. This is the first time that such a program is going public as a means to do outreach to secular Jews especially before Rosh hashonah,the Jewish new year. It is being organized by a small very vocal group known as JPAC Jewish political Action committee. In the past JPAC had its anti gay marriage campaign carried by Associated press which posted pictures of a stuffed dog hinting that today man marrys man and soon man marrys dog.The picture was picked up by over 2000 newspapers worldwide. In fact the iconic dog used in that photo is once again going to appear this time to fight the ideas of evolution.

So what we seem to have is illiterate haredim doing "outreach" to secular educated Jews to "proove" to them that evolution is a "myth."

I posted on JPAC's ridiculous anti-gay rights stunt equating same sex marriage with beastiality. That animals like dogs cannot consent to sexual relations with a human while males humans can consent to have sex with other male humans is completely lost on these people.

So is the idea that animals also practice homosexuality, and that homosexuality is found throught nature.

I hope JPAC is some sort of a twisted parody by a Modern Orthodox person with a mental defect.

But unfortunately it may very well be real.

Comments

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i am telling you the world is going meshuga insane this is too much how stupid can theese people get.

There is no contradiction between evolution and Torah.

It's very simple.

God created the universe old.

Science has found that that the universe is 6 billion or whatever years old.

It's also found that, based on our remarkable DNA similarities to the primates, we seem to have originated from some primate-like humanoid species.

For both, however, a huge amount of time would have had to go by--a very slowly-grinding machine that, baby step by evolutionary baby step, would turn a Big Bang into an orderly system of heavenly bodies, and eventually, into highly complex life forms on Earth (and possibly other planets).

So now comes the Torah and says it's all only 5772 years old.

Contradiction? Hardly.

Consider: One the Star Trek: The Next Generation TV show, when the Holodeck on board the Enterprise creates a 30-year-old man, let say... how old is he?

He was just created 5 minutes ago by Captain Picard.

Is he 30 years old? Or 5 minutes old?

Simple: He's a 5-minute-old 30-year-old man.

And here's the real point: Using empirical analysis and the rigorous scientific method, anyone with reason would have to conclude that he's 30 years old: Bone age, height, development, etc.

But he's only existed for 5 minutes.

The process (or, in the analogue, the evolutionary process) that is required for him to develop from a baby into a 30-year-old man never actually happened, even though the irrefutable scientific evidence is right there in your face.

Now, was I talking about the Holodeck?

Or a 6-billion-year-old universe in existence for only 5772 years?

There's no contradiction. The science is valid--and the Torah remains true.

They disprove their own arguments, since it is clear that their own parents gave birth to beheimos...

That is basically one guy, Mr. H. Friedman.

He means well, and is basically on the right side of things, but lacks polish and sometimes more.

But at least he means well, and is a believer, unlike some others.

Mendy- using Star Trek to rationalize your irrational belief that the universe isn't 15 billion (or more) years old is pretty weak.

there are gonna be an awful lot of scientists with egg on their face when they see that the haredim have disproved evolution. oh well....

Wow this is very creative. WOW WOW WOW

Mendy you should know that Torah doesn't really say how old the universe is e.g. it isn't mentioned in the 13 principles of faith even aish talks about the universe being billions of years old.
Maybe we were created yesterday?

a 6-billion-year-old universe in existence for only 5772 years?

There's no contradiction. The science is valid--and the Torah remains true.

Posted by: Mendy Hecht | September 20, 2011 at 07:18 PM

Please.

Stop with your Chabad idiocy and apologetics.

You learned that from your Rebbe.

You know where your dead Rebbe learned it from?

A Protestant theologian named Gosse whose works were taught at the University of Berlin in Philosophy of Science classes.

There is no Jewish source for the Rebbe's BS, apoint Rabbi Aryeh Kaplan made.

Kaplan also refuted the Rebbe's BS on other halakhic grounds.

The problem is, after the Tzemach Tzedek, most of Chabad were peasants.

The smart people, the educated people, left.

And there was a similar exodus when the Rashab took over and an even bigger one when the Rayyatz did.

By the time your dead Rebbe showed up, he could say anything he wanted to.

Only a handful of Chabadniks were educated enough to know better, and the Rebbe made sure they were quickly marginalized.

And he also forced out Rav Gustman, who wouldn't take the Rebbe's BS.

> That animals like dogs cannot consent to sexual relations with a human while males humans can consent to have sex with other male humans is completely lost on these people.

Tell that to the Spanish. They've extended human rights to apes and monkeys.
http://www.timesonline.co.uk/tol/news/world/europe/article4220884.ece
Now have I just expanded your dating pool?

LOL--proving envolution with stuffed animals? I love how they flaunt their ignorance.

Their sign refers to "the Jewish Torah".

I assume this distinguishes it from the Muslim or Hindu Torah.

Apparently, the gene pool amongst these geniuses is now at the subhuman level.

Tell that to the Spanish. They've extended human rights to apes and monkeys.
http://www.timesonline.co.uk/tol/news/world/europe/article4220884.ece
Now have I just expanded your dating pool?

Posted by: Garnel Ironheart | September 20, 2011 at 07:46 PM

As usual, you misrepresent (well, perhaps lie is the better term).

Here's what the article you linked actually says:
The resolution, adopted with crossparty support, calls on the Government to promote the Great Apes Project internationally and ensure the protection of apes from “abuse, torture and death”. “This is a historic moment in the struggle for animal rights,” Pedro Pozas, the Spanish director of the Great Apes Project, told The Times. “It will doubtless be remembered as a key moment in the defence of our evolutionary comrades.” I realize it's hard for you to think with that knee of yours constantly jerking, but do try to be more careful with what you write, and stop lying.

Got that?

At the Build-a-Bear Workshop, you can make any bear, or even a dog or cat, become like human in only a few minutes, thus proving the frumma are right.

http://www.buildabear.com/

mendy-

that old gag? evolution shows common descent of all living things. the words of the torah tell a completely different story. evolution is ongoing. the torah says the creative process ended after the sixth day.
and what a deceptive god ....he didnt mention that he created the earth to look billions of years old , so he left evidence to make himself look like a liar.
and endogenous retroviruses make your claim even more ridiculous. these remnants of past viruses are found in human 'junk' DNA, since they no longer are active, and are also found in the DNA of chimpanzees.
and theyre found in the exact same locations of our genome. theres no way that could have happened besides that humans and chimps share a common ancestor who had the virus and passed it down in its DNA. why would god put useless ERV's in both DNA's? they do nothing. was god leaving more false evidence to trick us into thinking he didnt create the world?
there is evidence of human writing (symbols) from at least 15,000 years ago. so did god also create the world with writing in caves that he made to look like humans wrote 10,000 years before humans were 'created'?
i could go on but theres no need. your suggestion is idiotic.

there are gonna be an awful lot of scientists with egg on their face when they see that the haredim have disproved evolution. oh well....

Posted by: ah-pee-chorus | September 20, 2011 at 07:28 PM

and do not forget that the sun revolves around earth

Okay Mendy , I believe the universe is 0.00001 seconds old. It was created right now! It was created with all of us in it as we are and included the Torah, which tells us that the universe is 5772 years old. Not only that, but it was created to appear as if it were billions of years old! Now prove me wrong. :-P

So Mendy, what is Data? He looks like man - but he isn't! He is not alive but everyone talks to him. He knows everything but is dissatisfied with his current situation.

Is he a rebbe?

I can prove Mendy Hecht right. I once bought a pair of jeans. The store swore they were brand new, but they looked 30 years old. If Levis can pull that off, do you think Hashem can't?

William Shatner is 80 years old. But he looks younger. More proof of the frumma theory.

And why are there no frumma on the Star Ship Enterprise?
Because they won't work in the future, either.

Finally an intelligent campaign.
Today you are often persecuted if you think that there is no evolution and that the world is done by Creation or Intelligent Design. This must stop.

Mendy, Last Thursdayism aka the Omphalos hypothesis is pretty lame. You might as well drink out of Russell's teapot and worship the Invisible Pink Unicorn.

Actually, I prefer the breakaway sect of Last Tuesdayism. The world was created 15 billion years old last Tuesday. But unlike the Last Thursdayists we believe it happens every Tuesday.

Not believing in evolution is like not believing in gravity. Why can't one say that God created the mechanism of evolution to deal with fluctuations in the environment? In addition, doesn't it say that an eon is like a day to God? That would account for a few billion years right there.

Cholov Yisroel milk is yet more proof of Mendy's theories. It's on the verge of spoiling even before you get it out the store.

Think they know the American Museum of Natural History / Planetarium is also on the Upper West Side :-)

It's haredi neanderthals like Mendy that ought to leave little doubt in anyone's mind that evolution occured.

The conceptual limitations of some groups no longer surprises me. Intelligent Design Theory and Genesis fit in quite nicely together. Cold Darwinism is as flawed as Raw Creationism.

Why attack Mendy? He's allowed to believe what makes him happy. That approach allows one to live comfortably with science. I'm a scientist, and understand that the only motivation of that approach is apologetics, but its not the worst line in this ugly "debate". And perhaps time is an illusion, JL Borges has a beautiful article arguing that position :)

So Mendy, your objective, scientific data reference comes from a sci-fi show? "Consider: One the Star Trek: The Next Generation TV show, when the Holodeck on board the Enterprise creates a 30-year-old man, let say... "

Honestly I would have respected your opinion more if you had, at least, used Wikipedia, but a sci-fi show?

Do you know what science fiction is? In contrast then you admit that Torah based faith is fiction?

Please Mendy, go back to the drawing board and reconsider your analysis, and PLEASE use REAL scientific evidence to corroborate or back up your statement.

can we get more on this gosse guy ?

To Maven,

Time and space are subsets of the divine superset. How we perceive time is fascinating. Violence makes time implode in on itself. Just as poor thinking creates violence. The universe really is stable, ordered, benevolent and expansive. Time is linear not cyclical, yet if we look at human history it seems that human beings keep repeating the same mistakes. All behaviour is a result of mindset and setting so the problem of history has been that the leaders of various regimes have got their frame of reference wrong. This is why we need the correct command and control structure on earth to create the right settings for people to unfold their potential. The idea of Ganeden is of humanind perfected on a planet of abundance. Contained in the Tanach are th prophecies of such an age. There is a lot of science in the good book. It is possible to study the nature of existence and come up with divine truths.

So time is not an illusion but a construct.

I googled stuffed dog and anti gay marriage rally, Its for real. I thought this was a prank but now I see they really exist like Smarya stated,It may very well be real.

Adam, Mendy, I don't hate you guys, but, do you guys know what an Allegory is? figurative speech, of representation conveying meaning other than the verbal.It is used to present an idea, principle or meaning, which can be presented in literary form, such as a poem or novel, or in visual form, such as in painting or drawing.

After being raised observant, then deciding on my own to part ways with the rigors of an observant lifestyle, having pursued a secular education, then going through medical school blah blah blah, I have concluded, as any reasonable man with an average intellect, that the stories written in the book of Genesis, are just that , Allegories. The intention of the original writers, and we still cannot objectively figure who they were, was to convey a moral lesson out of the stories they wrote, so we could LEARN and apply certain principles of morality into our lives. Unfortunately, as history has showed us, some people, took it literally, thus creating different religious interpretations to fit the particular brand of the faith of the "revealed" masters.

Mendy, instead of quoting Star Trek, this is what I recommend you to do next time.

Quote the work for example of Gerald L. Schroeder, he is an orthodox dude just like you, but much more intelligent.Check his work, like "Age of the Universe".

He attempts to reconcile a young Earth creationist Biblical view with the scientific model of a world that is billions of years old using the idea that the perceived flow of time for a given event in an expanding universe varies with the observer’s perspective of that event.

He attempts to reconcile the two perspectives numerically, calculating the effect of the stretching of space-time, based on Einstein's theory of general relativity.

Trust me Mendy, this sounds much better than quoting Star Trek or any "Rebbe".

Ok?

Rabbi Aryeh Kaplan actually has a most fascinating essay on this topic where he reconciles the Torah's account of Creation with the scientific view regarding the age of the universe, fossils etc. A worthwhile read.

I know Kaplan's work, but I did not wanted to quote him since him, as well as I, are of Sephardi family, I do not want to be biased, or sound biased ;)

I posted on JPAC's ridiculous anti-gay rights stunt equating same sex marriage with beastiality. That animals like dogs cannot consent to sexual relations with a human while males humans can consent to have sex with other male humans is completely lost on these people.

I am not a fan of bestiality nor a fan of the idiots of JPAC but this argument makes no sense. You do not ask for a consent from an animal before you kill and eat it , so why would you require a consent from an animal before you have sex with it.

I am sure being killed and eaten is more traumatic to the animal than having sex wih a human.

A better argument against gay marriage would be multiple consenting adults all marrying each other - like a college frat party orgy, except that all participants would be considerrd married.

There are plenty of ways to reconcile the Genesis story with scientific data.

Personally, and as a scientist, I do not see any difficulties whatsoever.

The Genesis story is quite simply false-to-fact. There's no evidence that it's anything except a conglomeration of several contradictory Bronze Age myths. The attempts to "prove" it with science or reconcile it to that which very obviously contradicts it are pretty clearly an irrational emotional attachment to childhood stories.

Shlomo, you're right that the Torah does not cite the age of the earth. The 5772 quoted above comes from the Seder Olam Rabbah of Yose ben Halafta, written in the middle of the second century CE.

However, since his chronology is pretty much rubbish when it talks about events in the recent past (he gets the date of the destruction of the First Temple wrong by over 150 years!) it can hardly be trusted when it talks about events thousands of years earlier. It's fiction and numerology.

Philip Henry Gosse published his book Omphalos in 1857, with his claim that God created the Earth complete with tree rings, because it would have been incomplete without them. "Omphalos" is the Greek for "navel", so you can now reconstruct his bible-based argument. You can find the rest on Wikipedia.

You do not ask for a consent from an animal before you kill and eat it , so why would you require a consent from an animal before you have sex with it.

I am sure being killed and eaten is more traumatic to the animal than having sex wih a human.

Posted by: Bassy the Haredi Slayer | September 20, 2011 at 11:15 PM

From a Jewish point of view, the answer is simple.

You may recall that before the flood, humans were vegetarians.

After the flood, God gave humans special permission to kill animals for food and clothing.

However, God did not give humans the right to have sex with animals.

Regarding bestiality, we can follow my rebbe Harav Hagaon Pinchas Scheinberg' pask that if there is no penetration you can have relations with any animals you want to. However, I can tell you from experience that having vaginal sex with a sheep is like having anal sex with a woman.

boring boring boring.
The universe is 6000. no its not, its 15 billion. no its not. yes it is.

boring boring boring

if you want to restrict your epistemology to a kantian one and work only with measurable phenomena (ie how much does it weigh, how long is it), then religion cannot be true.
If you want to open your epistemology to creative, non scientific disciplines, (the same disciplines that give birth to art, poetry and love,) and work with observations that are not all measurable using a ruler, then religion can be true.

this conversation is 200 years old. I simply cannot believe how uneducated people are in the history of philosophy.

this is what Rav Hirsch was arguing about with Kant's epistemology for Gds sake. Cant we just more on... or at least stop jousting with silly one man upmanship?

alternatively, keep arguing about whether dinosaurs existed, or were created dead in the ground. And ill see you in another 200 years!!!

Mendy belongs to a group that “teaches” people. He imagines all people aren't part of his group because he hasn't “learned with them” yet. He uses a TV analogy to make things graspable for the simple irreligious folk on FM who just need to learn the wisdom of Messiah's ways.

To Ultra Haredi Lite,

Rabbi Aryeh Kaplan was a very wise man. I have six of his books in my library that I bought in 2003.

G-d rest his soul.

Sometimes you surprise me, Shmar. You write, "After the flood, God gave humans special permission to kill animals for food and clothing.
"However, God did not give humans the right to have sex with animals."
So the reason we can eat animals but not screw them is because that's what God said. On the other hand one male can screw another male (sort of) even though God said this was a no-no. Ya gotta decide, Shmar, you're on God's side or you're not.

And one more thing. I didn't understand the logic behind this sentence, "So is the idea that animals also practice homosexuality, and that homosexuality is found throught nature."
If animals do something then it's OK for humans to do it? Wow? Some animals eat their young, so us homo sapiens should be allowed to that also? In the neighborhood I live in a lot of dogs shit on the sidewalk. So it's OK for me to shit on the sidewalk? And they don't wipe their behind after doing the deed. I do. Do I have your permission to stop this foolish act.

Regarding the creation story in Bereshit: is it really so hard to understand that something may be true, but not "literally" true?
Regarding the age of the universe: I think you can make a very strong case that, traditionally, the dating was never taken literally. The evidence is very simple: no where in Tanach is any event EVER dated as "X years livriat ha-olam". Why not? Why is every date in Melachim - " in the x year of so-and so's reign."? Later, the Rabbis used the calendars of the Greeks or Romans. Even the Rambam - who lived only 800 years ago, uses the Moslem dating, the way we use 2011.
Speaking of Rambam, he famously disagrees with Aristotle, who held that the universe was eternal. But his proof is NOT Bereshit. And he clearly states that HAD Aristotle prooved the eternity of the universe, it would not be difficult to go back & re-interpret Besershit. How mush clearer can you get that we ought not be boxed in by a literal understanding?

Ezra

Ezra, a number of "Gedolim" have ruled that it's forbidden to hold by the Rambam on these issues "in our time." That's one of the reasons rational and brilliant rabbis like Natan Slifkin have been marginalized. Rational belief and respect for science are now forbidden.

Yup, the world just HAPPENED... The great human mind 'evolved'... Everthing makes perfect sense as long as G-d had no part in it.
SHOITIM!

Don't know everything about the evolution debate, but I know my stuffed animals. German Shepherds DO NOT give birth to Chocolate Labs!

And what is the evolutionary result of excessive in-breeding?

To all those who want to be intellectually honest, read the book "Beyond a Reasonable Doubt".

Also, remember that "evolution" is a theory. There is no scientific evidence to prove evolution. In fact, Darwin himself said that evolution cannot explain the human eye.

Read up before jumping on me.

yo bany rot. i dont even know what to say to this.

To all those who want to be intellectually honest, read the book "Beyond a Reasonable Doubt".

Also, remember that "evolution" is a theory. There is no scientific evidence to prove evolution. In fact, Darwin himself said that evolution cannot explain the human eye.

Read up before jumping on me.

Posted by: Guest | September 21, 2011 at 09:55 AM

I meant "Beyond a Reasonable Doubt" by Shmuel Waldman.

I just wanted to thank Ezra (post too long to copy here) and Skeptical Yid for the explanation of time and the Rambam's understanding as well as current Rabbinic prohibitions. I was taught "we don't know how long each day of creation was...each day could have been the current equivalent of a billion years" which served me well through a grduate degree (albeit not in science) I had never researched any further. Thank you for this insight. Fascinating!

Also, remember that "evolution" is a theory. There is no scientific evidence to prove evolution. In fact, Darwin himself said that evolution cannot explain the human eye.

Read up before jumping on me.

Posted by: Guest | September 21, 2011 at 09:55 AM

A theory is a model used to explain a phenomenon. It doesn't mean a "guess". Evolutionary theory is backed up by 150 years of observable data within the disciplines of biology, chemistry, geology and archeology. Of course, I realize these scientists with their advanced degrees and years of fieldwork don't know as much an elderly rabbi who hasn't left his study in fifty years, but I have confidence in them nonetheless.

Darwin did NOT say evolution couldn't explain the development of the eye; in fact, the opposite is the case: http://www.proof-of-evolution.com/evolution-of-the-eye.html

"Read up"? Why? You haven't. You remind me of evangelicals who get all of their information from their pastors. You've gotten all of yours from your rebbe.

William Shatner is 80 years old. But he looks younger. More proof of the frumma theory.

And why are there no frumma on the Star Ship Enterprise?
Because they won't work in the future, either.

Posted by: WoolSilkCotton | September 20, 2011 at 08:28 PM

HA!

guest- you know why you cant see evolution because you never evolved into a thinking human, evolution is a no brainer we have all the prove thats needed science goes forward not backward like youre type.

'Yechiel- youre the biggest shoite of them all you cant think you were bron and youre mind never evolved you dont need to go far us humans and all living thinks are replicated by nature well you can say its god thats youre choice no one ever saw god its all a fabrication of our imagination so you can gop on and delude youreself as much as you wish but nature creates and destroys its that simple dont play with me the god card you fool all the planets and everything around it was created over millions of years its a no brainer this is what we see and scientifically prove now go on a scream as much as you like about GOD THATS YOURE EXCUSE FOR EVERYTHING ITS THE EASY WAY OUT YOU SHOITE.

Guest- you have it backwards, as usual. Evolution is validated by the human eye! Our blind spot is a defect other animals, such as the Octopus do not have! When you have to resort to books that are RW Fundamentalist Christian propaganda to prove you point, that's pretty sad.

Hey folks,

I am leaving for a week, and I'm not bringing the computer, returning next Wednesday late afternoon erev Yom Tov, so I may not be logging on to FM again until after Rosh Hashana.

Therefore I want to say now, A Happy and Healthy New Year to all.
Regardless of opinion on any issues, if we have disagreed over the course of the year please realize that no malice is ever intended, even if the rhetoric gets a little heated sometimes.

Love, peace and good health to everyone.

Your friend,
WSC

2 WSC,

Thanks, but just wanted to point out that "new year" usually begins on the 1st of 1st month, not on the 1st of 7th month.

Yechiel,

Why do you insist that evolution implies that "it just happened" & God had "no part in it"? Why can't God create the universe, thru the process of evolution?

An analogy: Theologically, it's quite acceptable to say that babies are "from" God. Yet does anyone doubt that the feotus develops - and that we can track that development - over nine months?
In your thinking, does anyone who "beleives" in nine months of gestation automatically exclude God from the picture? So if God in His wisdom uses a nine month process to create a baby, why can't He use 5 billion years (or whatever) to create a univers? What's the difference?

Ezra

Posted by: Jeff | September 21, 2011 at 10:43 AM

That website is from fringe radical atheists. Read the book, "Beyond a Reasonable Doubt" by Shmuel Waldman. You may learn something.

The "theory" of evolution is just that. A THEORY. Nobody really knows what happened billions of years ago.

The big bang is also a theory. Nobody really knows how we were created, or how we were big banged.

There are plenty of theories out there. But no scientific evidence.

The only scientific evidence that I know of that refutes the accepted creation version is that the world is older than 6,000 years.

is there any evidence for the 5772 years old, theory.

That website is from fringe radical atheists. Read the book, "Beyond a Reasonable Doubt" by Shmuel Waldman. You may learn something.

The "theory" of evolution is just that. A THEORY. Nobody really knows what happened billions of years ago.

The big bang is also a theory. Nobody really knows how we were created, or how we were big banged.

There are plenty of theories out there. But no scientific evidence.

The only scientific evidence that I know of that refutes the accepted creation version is that the world is older than 6,000 years.

Posted by: Guest | September 21, 2011 at 11:58 AM

I'm happy to know that not only are you remarkably lacking in basic Jewish ethics, as we have discussed elsewhere, and not only do you get your "news" from Rush Limbaugh and Fox, but you learn your science from haredi apologetics.

That's the perfect trifecta of idiocy, and you own it.

It's yours.

Educated people read what you write and realize immediately that you're a fool.

But like most true fools, you read what you write and think you're Einstein.

Guest, stop flapping your kugel hole. You're just convincing the rest of us that True Torah Jews are ignorant fools. You don't know anything about science, let alone biology. If you did you would know the difference between theory, hypothesis, model, fact and inference.

You would also know that the fact of evolution is as firmly established as the fact of gravity and that the theories of both are matters of lively research. You would know that there is no evidence whatsoever for your fairy tales about Invisible Sky Wizard making people out of mud six thousand years ago.

And you would be aware that we have a thorough evolutionary history of the eye complete with all the major intermediate stages.

But facts are for goyim, I suppose. Blind stupidity is for the Chosen People.

sam-
Heh, I just enlarged that photo, and I see what you're saying about the stuffed animal dogs.

I wonder if they also believe that tadpoles give birth to tadpoles??

WSC
May you have a year of plentiful and health.

De-evolution is real.

Also, remember that "evolution" is a theory.

So is the idea that many sicknesses and diseases are caused by certain microorganisms. It's called the Germ Theory of Disease.


There is no scientific evidence to prove evolution.

Except for the evidence we witness every day and the complete confirmation of the fossil record of what evolution predicted we would find.

On a daily basis we see the mutations of microbes into new strains, a very real thing, especially when it involves microbes and viruses that become resistant to treatments and vaccines.

There are no bear fossils in the Permian period. There are no conifers in the Devonian period. Just as evolution predicted. If you find an ape fossil in the Silurian period or a redwood tree in the Cambrian period, that could destroy evolution. So far, nothing like this has been found. Scientific findings have borne out the theory.


In fact, Darwin himself said that evolution cannot explain the human eye.

No, he didn't. He said, speaking to the reader of his book, that he could understand why, to someone viewing the theory, it would SEEM absurd.

"To suppose that the eye, with all its inimitable contrivances . . . . could have been formed by natural selection, seems, I freely confess, absurd in the highest possible degree."

But he also goes on to say that the evidence he has so far found does NOT contradict his theory.

"If it could be demonstrated that any complex organ existed, which could not possibly have been formed by numerous, successive, slight modifications, my theory would absolutely break down. But I can find out no such case."

He later wrote:

"Reason tells me, that if numerous gradations from a simple and imperfect eye to one complex and perfect can be shown to exist, each grade being useful to its possessor, as is certainly the case; if further, the eye ever varies and the variations be inherited, as is likewise certainly the case and if such variations should be useful to any animal under changing conditions of life, then the difficulty of believing that a perfect and complex eye could be formed by natural selection, though insuperable by our imagination, should not be considered as subversive of the theory."

Remember, too, that Darwin wrote the Origin of the Species before modern style paleontology was widespread, and certainly before the genetic information we have today was available. Even though there were studies of fossils in his day, there was nowhere near the amount or variety of fossils or genetic information available to him that we have today.

Remember, too, that Darwin was a naturalist, not a paleontologist, much of his work related to his observations of living populations, not prehistoric ones.

When Darwin wrote that "if" proto-eyes, and simple eyes, etc. could be found in a progression, he was writing at a time when scientists didn't have much in the way of fossil collections to work with. Today, they do, and Darwin's eye progressions have been found.

If anything, his writings on the eye - which were later confirmed - show the strenghth of his theory.


Read up before jumping on me.

If you'd like to read up on evolution, this is a good source. It not only addresses some of the problems/misconcetions that the many people have about the theory, but it also explains HOW evolution works (something that is often lost in discussions about it).

http://evolution.berkeley.edu/evolibrary/article/evo_01


De-evolution is real.

Duty Now For the Future

We Must Repeat


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I don't mind if they have all the anti-evolution shows they want ... But I WOULD like them to be consistent in their anti-evolution stand. Specifically: if they really oppose evolution, they should forbid themselves to use any medical interventions whose discovery/development  depended in any way on any finding of evolutionary biology: which means the majority of medications and other medical treatments developed since the late 20th century. 
     If they do not forbid themselves to benefit from something they do not believe to exist, then the doctors who treat such patients (and/or the insurers who insure their treatments) should "go on strike" in a sense, and should refuse to provide anti-evolutionists and their dependent/minor children with any medical interventions whose discovery/development depended in any way on any finding of evolutionary biology. 

Those M's are were supposed to be an Energy Dome, but the comment system left justified the whole thing and ruined it.

Non DEVO fans, please ignore. :)

If you visit museums of fashion, history of clothing, or any museum with indications of people's size (such as a military museum with old uniforms on display, or a palace with old beds on display), you will notice the significant changes over the just the past 150 years, and I'm not talking about obesity.

People have evolved to be much larger and stronger just in the past 150 years.

Is this even a real group? Nothing being on Google, the whole thing smells like a poorly-done PR fraud.

Sad that someone felt there weren't enough real Chilul-Hashems, he had to make another one up. Here's something for that mad Rabbi Levin to sink his teeth into!

WSC-
I agree with what you said about people's size, but I remember hearing from the frums that back in Biblical time that humans were giants as compared to now and that they lived for hundreds of years. Where did they get such ideas from?

Let's not forget the discoveries that can be said to be "anticiapted" by evolutionaly theory. For example, Darwin had no idea what a gene was, but theory anticipated some mechanism for passing on traits. So Mendel "discovers" genes a few decades after Darwin dies. And once genes were discovered, this anticipates a structure & mechanism for coding all this genetic information. And so, of course, Watson & Frick "discover" DNA. If you deny evolution, how do you explain the existence of genes & DNA - both which were unknown to Darwin, and yet, both which were anticipated by evolutionary theory?

Ezra

Posted by: WoolSilkCotton | September 21, 2011 at 01:06 PM

You are right, I noticed the same in Williamsburg VA, and Smithsonian in DC, were you could see that the beds and uniforms were much smaller than today.

Maple Bacon, I think some frumma once found a pair of sneakers belonging to Shaquille O'Neal, or maybe William Perry or Vince Wilfork's jersey, and heard the legend of such large players being around for lengthy careers.
Since the frumma have no idea what sports are, they just assumed this was something from bibilical times.

And that is my theory.

I used to think that evolution was a well-documented scientific fact, but now that I've seen the stuffed giraffe toy and the baby stuffed giraffe toy, I may have to rethink things a bit.

Guest: the Waldman book is mind-numbing stupidity. He has absolutely no idea of what evolution claims--and neither do you. For a start, it does not claim life is a bunch of "lucky accidents". And that stuff about oranges and bananas is just bizarro logic. No actual sense. Waldman cites known incompetent hacks (like Denton). He cites Darwin as if he were the last word on evolution, when he is only the first word.

I have never figured out the mentality of active evolution-deniers in the frum world. It's one thing to personally reject Rambam on an issue of philosophy. It's quite another to think that you might actually mekarv intelligent, educated, secular Jews by drooling all over yourself.

In fact, the size increase of humans over recent history is mostly due to increased health and nutrition. For example, in England, the upper class and their servants were generally half-a-foot to a foot taller than the great unwashed. This was very noticeable in the military, with the leaders mostly a head above the recruits.

The US took the lead in the early 20th century. Pictures of US soldiers in WW2 liberating the French typically show giants mixing with dwarfs. But Europe caught up health-wise, and in fact, their decades of superior health care are showing up in the statistics. West Europeans are now, on average, taller than Americans.

According to Sanhedrin 109a, "kofim" (usually translated as "monkeys") are descended from the generation dispersed after the Tower of Babel. So in fact the Talmud supports the existence of evolution.

Some of my best friends are apes.

Ezra, to take a couple more recent examples, consider the Naked Mole Rat, parthenogenic lizards, antibiotic-resistant pathogens, partially viviparous skinks and the structure of cytochrome. All were predicted by evolutionary theory.

Jeff writes:
A theory is a model used to explain a phenomenon. It doesn't mean a "guess".
It's even stronger than that. For something to be considered theory it has to explain the available data without contradicting any of it and offer insight into the underlying mechanism. A model may describe the behavior without adding anything to understanding.

NLR — here's how to line up your Energy Dome:

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i think theese hareidim are devolving going bacwards not evolving like everybody else what a shanda.

Ezra — The co-discoverer of DNA was Crick, not Frick.

Otherwise, you're right — because of the close ties between genetics and evolution, I hope that doctors/technicians in any field related to genetics will "go on strike" against offering their services to benefit those who reject evolution. When geneticists who offer the achievements of their science to attackers of that science, they are like sailors steering ships to rescue a man who does not believe in ships or sailors or navigation or the ocean itself: a man who will attack these wherever he finds them ... and who will then wonder why he is left to drown.

'Guest' touched on all the points that every evolution-denying fundie ignoramus does. i always get a kick out of the dishonest half-quote of darwin they all use. thanks for the laughs, dude.

WSC- have a great time, and a happy and healthy new year to all of yours.

It's even stronger than that. For something to be considered theory it has to explain the available data without contradicting any of it and offer insight into the underlying mechanism. A model may describe the behavior without adding anything to understanding.

Posted by: anuran | September 21, 2011 at 03:25 PM

I know. I should have been more specific, but I was trying to keep it simple. What difference does it make? Nothing we say will change his mind.

Meanwhile, how did you insert the photo into your comment in the other thread? I've been trying for over a year , and I can't seem to do it. Most HTML codes don't seem to work in Typepad (I can't, for example, insert a hyperlink).

The giants mentioned in Bereshit may be an allusion to Neanderthals, who were more powerfully built than the branch that gave rise to modern humans.

Does anyone know where the "exhibit" is located?
I'd love to see it with my own eyes.

NLR, excellent posts!

Thanks, WSC!

Great video!

And props to Flat Earth for bringing up De-evolution in the first place!!!

The way that we weren't is what we'll become.

Kate G. -

Thank you so much for the corrected Energy Dome !!!

It's a monumental good thing!

This a good phenomenon and should be publicized. It is an inoculation against Big-Kiruv, like Aish an Chabad, that try to make you think that you aren't joining a crazy cult when they approach you.

The more stuff like this is known the less people will go off the deep end. The only one who will be able to mekarev anyone are those that publicly state that these stunts are crazy. Aish and Chabad wouldn't have a problem with lying about what they think of these ideas (they already do). However they may feel under pressure not to publicly denounce these actions, so that could be a boon.

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