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September 28, 2011

Chabad's Reaches Sukkah Compromise

Sukkah Community Board 1 members find Chabad a private lot to use for its TriBeCa sukkah, avoiding what could have become a court fight over Chabad's request to place it in a tiny park on a traffic triangle.

Sukkah

You can read about the consitutional issues here.

Information on the compromise – which was praised by Chabad, the community board, and Separation Clause activists – is in the New York Times.

One key fact of the compromise is that use of the sukkah is limited to the hours of 7:30 am to 7 pm. If those hours are followed, it will be very difficult for the sukkah to be used for evening holiday meals.

 

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NEW CHABAD CHUMRA: TAP WATER TREIF!

CLOWN HEIGHTS (Eruv Rosh Hashana) - Tap water in this Brooklyn community is to be regarded as treif and impermissible, according to a circular that appeared today from a group billing itself the "Beis Din of Crown Heights."

The circular, in Hebrew and addressed to visitors to "The King" (i.e., Messiah), says insects have infested the Brooklyn water supply, and is thus impermissible to consume under haredi kashrut practice.

The rabbis also warn that food much food for sale in this ultra-Orthodox neighborhood fails to meet their standards of ultra-kashrut ("mehadrin") and admonishes visiting women to dress in the ultra-modest style they favour.

The practice of some girls wearing skirts that show the knees, as well as young men who "touch their beards" (euphemism for trimming) has become a local obsession among the Clown Heights Lubavitchers of late.

In other Beis Din news, a escort service consisting of divorced hasidic housewives and underage girls was reportedly broken up through the efforts of community activist Avrohom Notig and the Beis Din, when Notig discovered that reputed women of ill repute were distributing their business cards, soliciting clients.

You can read about the consitutional issues here.

Shmarya,

You wrote there:

Generally, municipalities who allow Christmas trees and menorahs want both displayed near each other both in space and in time.

Holidays like Sukkot or Ramadan pose a problem, because they rarely coincide with each other and never coincide with Christian holidays.

But that doesn't "even things out" because Jesus, being a non-Sadducee/non-Essene Galilean, was a de facto Pharisee himself (just without pedigree, being around before the social changes effected by R' Akiva's rise to leadership) celebrated Chanukah, and even went to the Jerusalem for a special Hasmonean celebration in the Temple of which we no longer have a recorded history, as remembered in John 10:21-22:

Ἐγένετο τότε τὰ ἐγκαίνια ἐν τοῖς Ἱεροσολύμοις: χειμὼν ἦν, καὶ περιεπάτει ὁ Ἰησοῦς ἐν τῷ ἱερῷ ἐν τῇ στοᾷ τοῦ Σολομῶνος.

[Here it is in its original English:

And it was at Jerusalem the feast of the dedication, and it was winter. And Jesus walked in the temple in Solomon's porch.]

Conversely, he would have abhored, condemned and prohibited the common-day use of druid tree-worship.

By your logic there should be a contemporary Jewish display to offset the Christian symbolism of the Chanukah Menorah and the Christmas Tree, like bagels and klezmer or something like that. But until this day there is not "Jewish" representation in these public, state owned and/or financed arenas.

…feast of the dedication…By your logic there should be a contemporary Jewish display to offset the Christian symbolism of the Chanukah Menorah and the Christmas Tree, like bagels and klezmer or something like that. But until this day there is not "Jewish" representation in these public, state owned and/or financed arenas.

Posted by: Maskil | September 28, 2011 at 08:55 AM

I think the Feast of the Dedication is the day the Temple was reconsecrated by the Hasmoneans.

We now call it Hanukka.

As for the rest, civil law is not concerned with what Christianity was 2000 years ago – it cares what it is today, which is why the constitutional issues are as I stated.

Shmarya,

Yes, but Hanukka is not the "Jewish Christmas" nor is Christmas the "Christian Hanukka" so displaying symbols of the two does not represent equality. It's like putting up a rosary display next to a lulav on Shavuot. There is no constitutional obligation to offset a nativity scene with random symbolic displays representing "all the fake religions" as well. It is impossible, the suggestion is specious, and proximity to a holiday of one of the "fake religions" would be completely irrelevant, because there is no such thing as a "corresponding holiday." It's fucking retarded and I don't think you know what "constitutional" means.

Posted by: Maskil | September 28, 2011 at 09:36 AM

The point – which you completely miss – is not that each religious display be a parallel of the others or exactly equivalent in importance to the others.

The point is to show that no particular religion is favored over the others.

And that requires that roughly the same exposure be given to any religion, that no one religion be given a time frame where others cannot appear, and that others are displayed at the same time or in close proximity to the first.

That's how it works.

Putting up a sukkah during Sukkot favors no religion - if Judean law is even a "religion" (that was what Reform declared in 1890 and the rest of us rejected that) - if there are no other "religions" going on. There is no favoritism.

Do you have a fucking clue how many religions there are? Shinto, Santaria etc.! They can never be fully "represented" even in their own time. And Druze Islam there are no symbols so it can't be represented. So having a sukkah on Sukkot (if that is "religious" representation) would be fair to Druze Islam because each is represented according to it's own. Now go extrapolate.

The point is to show that no particular religion is favored over the others.

That's how it works.

No, that's not how it works. There is nothing about this in the constitution of the Federal or any state government. You're supplanting cultural liberal hyperbole (a religion of its own) in lieu of the legal system of the United States. That, perhaps, is the closest we've seen in any of this to state involving itself in religion, and even legistlating and coercing it.

Posted by: Maskil | September 28, 2011 at 10:16 AM

With all due respect, you don't know what you're talking about.

Read the Separation Clause, and then read how it has been implemented over the years.

The point – which, again, you miss – is that no religion can be favored over the others.

And despite your rather bizarre religious-political philosophy, a sukkah is a religious object.

Read the Separation Clause, and then read how it has been implemented over the years.

I've read it. Have you?

The point – which, again, you miss – is that no religion can be favored over the others.

The very idea you present is a false hypothesis, as no two religions can be compared and thus no action can be seen as favoritism - not that there's any law against it. It's just not possible.

And despite your rather bizarre religious-political philosophy, a sukkah is a religious object.

Aside from the fact that "the rest of us" did not adopt the Pittsburgh Platform which declared Judaism "no longer a nationality but a religion" a sukkah has nothing to do regarding or related to the worship of God.

The point – which, again, you miss –

No, it is you who misses the point, and your illogical applications are not within any scope of reality. You hide from this by ignoring the absolute nonsense of its impossible application as I've delineated above at length.

Until the president of the United States stops issuing letters citing the gregorian year followed by the phrase "to the year of our Lord" it is all fair game. And that's just what it is: a game. Because neither logic nor law have anything to do with it.

Realize how your cockamamie idea of applying this is ad absurdum and process it.

Posted by: Maskil | September 28, 2011 at 11:57 AM

Please.

1. "The very idea you present is a false hypothesis, as no two religions can be compared and thus no action can be seen as favoritism - not that there's any law against it. It's just not possible."

Is there a medicine you're supposed to be on?

No two religions can be compared?

That's simply insane.

And it's also not relevant because the issue is how much space, time and relative space to area a religion is given and how that compares to how much space, time and relative space to area other religions are given.

It has nothing to do with value judgements of religions or comparison of the doctrine of religions.

2. A sukkah is a religious commandment specified as such by the Torah.

A menora on the other hand is simply a device to hold oil or candles. Its sole religious import is because the 8 branched candelabra known as a menora is used for hanukkah, and then the other menorah used in the Temple.

It's national significance is its use as seal by the State of Israel.

There is no Judean nationality, no Judean state and therefore no Judean national symbols

Judea ceased to exist almost 2000 years ago.

The Judean nation is in exile, but its national laws are preserved and evolving to accomodate the present (from the Exilarch in Babylon to the leading Decisors of today). According to you Kudistanism is a religion.

Your bizarre concept of equality of time and space for religious displays shows serious gaps in your knowledge and intellect. In Shinto there are about 5,000 dieties - and those are just the main ones. They can all be depicted and represented. For the Druze no depiction, representation or even description of the sole entity they consider divine may be used. No two religions can be compared - there exist no parallels or common denominators other that that they share elements of or regarding the worship of God, but it ends there. The law requiring Judeans to eat and sleep in the Sukkah is not even contingent on the recognition of a diety, let alone worshiping one (read the halachot). The only Jewish "religion" is Reform and its spinoffs.

And I reiterate:

Until the president of the United States stops issuing letters citing the gregorian year followed by the phrase "to the year of our Lord" it is all fair game. And that's just what it is: a game. Because neither logic nor law have anything to do with it.

Attn: Fruma, bug off. I don't pester you with my interests, so please do me the same courtesy. Keep your horns, huts and hanukiahs off public property. Post a notice outside your non-tax-contributing religious facility of when your service is, and if I'm interested, I'll come check it out. I don’t love you. I don’t appreciate you. The unstable and the fools looking to part with their money will still manage to find you.

Your bizarre concept of equality of time and space for religious displays shows serious gaps in your knowledge and intellect. In Shinto there are about 5,000 dieties - and those are just the main ones. They can all be depicted and represented. For the Druze no depiction, representation or even description of the sole entity they consider divine may be used. No two religions can be compared - there exist no parallels or common denominators other that that they share elements of or regarding the worship of God, but it ends there. The law requiring Judeans to eat and sleep in the Sukkah is not even contingent on the recognition of a diety, let alone worshiping one (read the halachot). The only Jewish "religion" is Reform and its spinoffs.

Please.

Dwelling in a sukkah is a religious commandment.

Kurdistan is an autonomous region of Iraq.

Judea does not exist, except as territory currently under control of the Government of Israel.

And, at any rate, there never was any secular law corpus in Judea, and the king and the Temple cult were inseparable until Herod, who could not be a priest because of his lineage and who was not from the Davidic dynasty.

And as you surely know, Herod was viewed as a usurper.

At any rate, you're spouting bizarre babble just like radical Marxists do.

I'm sure it makes sense to you and few of your friends.

The problem is that it does not and it will never make sense to 99% of the world's population – or for that matter to more than a small percentage of the Jewish people, either.

Dwelling in a sukkah is a religious commandment.

No, it is legal. The worship of God is not contingent in fulfilling the law. Read the halachot again.

Kurdistan is an autonomous region of Iraq.

As of very recently, but 3/4 of it are occupied by Turkey, Syria and Iran. The "Kurds" in these countries, and the Iraqi Kurds who hope one day for the restoration of all of historical Kurdistan, must, by your estimation, be members of the Kurdish religion. (And apparently also Marxists.)

Judea does not exist, except as territory currently under control of the Government of Israel.

And the Palestinaian Authority, Jordan & Southern Lebanon.

The problem is that it does not and it will never make sense to 99% of the world's population – or for that matter to more than a small percentage of the Jewish people, either.

So you seem to believe that 99% of the worlds population and all put a "small percentage of the Jewish people" have accepted the resolution of the Pittsburg Platform not only to declare the Jewish people "no longer a nation, but a religious community" but also to "expect neither a return to Palestine .. nor the restoration of any of the laws concerning the Jewish state."

My gosh bless you and grant you a sweet new October thru mid-September while I travel around Palestine on my flying unicorn under the delusion that I am residing in the Jewish state.

oh! boy,
is this protracted argument what is called haskala? (activities of 'maskil'-im?).

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