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September 28, 2011

Yeshiva Education Equal To A College Degree, Haredi Pol Says

Rabbi Israel Eichler 2 “The State is doing a great injustice to haredi job seekers by not recognizing religious education while [certain] academic degrees are irrelevant to employment,” he said. “A person who wants to be a doctor, should go to medical school and an electrician needs to study electrical engineering. But degrees in the humanities are not more relevant than religious education.”

Rabbi Israel Eichler 2
Rabbi Yisrael Eichler

Rabbi Yisrael Eichler, the head of the United Torah Judaism haredi political party, reacted to the Trajtenberg report, an official government report that among other things calls for haredi schools to implement Israel's core curriculum:

“The State is doing a great injustice to haredi job seekers by not recognizing religious education while [certain] academic degrees are irrelevant to employment,” he said. “A person who wants to be a doctor, should go to medical school and an electrician needs to study electrical engineering. But degrees in the humanities are not more relevant than religious education.”

“United Torah Judaism maintains and will maintain the independence of the haredi education system, which guarantees the existence of Israel throughout the generations. Without it, assimilation will be huge, as is happening in America and around the world, where education is determined by the state curriculum.”

As it now stands, haredi schools do NOT teach math, science, history, civics, Modern Hebrew or English – which means haredi students are woefully unprepared to enter the workforce.

On the other hand, someone with a college degree in Art History has studied all of those subjects, speaks at least one foreign language, and is familiar with modern society, and she is much more prepared to enter the workforce than a haredi student is.

Yisrael Eichler knows this – but he doesn't care. He has no idea what a college education is or what a high school education is – or, for that matter, what a grade school education is.

He doesn't know algebra or history or civics – and he certainly doesn't know science.

He doesn't know what a modern emplyer needs in an employee or what a job seeker needs to do to be prepared to enter the workforce.

Ysrael Eichler doesn't know – and Yisrael Eichler doesn't care.

Eichler wants Israel to keep doling out ever-increasing welfare benefits and subsidies to haredim to support haredim as they sit in yeshivas until their 50s – and sometimes for decades after that, as well.

The only way for this to change is for Israel's secular and Zionist Orthodox majority to force haredi schools to comply with the national core ciurriculum, while at the same time telling every 18 year old haredi that he will not be receiving government benefits if he chooses to study full time in yeshiva past his 20th birthday, and that he must either serve in the army or do recognized national service for at least two years, as well.

Otherwise, we'll be dealing with these problems for decades more, until Israel collapses under the weight of haredi sloth.

[Hat Tip: JK.]

Comments

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In a sense he's right. A Yeshiva education makes a person about as desirable for most jobs as degrees in dance choreography, 17th century literature or basket weaving. In other words, they're useless.

Ask Rabbi Eichler why an employer would want to hire a guy who can't communicate well, do math, and has no understanding of science, accounting or business. Does he think that debating whether sheitls or snoods are more Halachic, or being able to argue for days about whether it's okay to use a Shabbos goy, are useful skills to employers?

It all depends on the job. If someone is looking for a job to be a limudei kodesh teacher in a yeshiva then a smicha would be more appropriate than a PhD in 17th century literature. Any form of learning is to be applauded. I may consider spending time studying French poetry useless - this does not mean that it is.

The difference is that the Lit. major has to write papers, lots of papers and read widely and critically. The choreographer has to run dance productions, spend ceaseless hours in rehearsal and learn a lot of skills. Despite derptard lies to the contrary there aren't any basket-weaving degrees.

In other words, SkepticalYid, they have to do something even if it isn't directly related to narrow job skills. The yeshiva bochur just has to memorize a bunch of Aramaic, doesn't even have to puke it up on demand much less do any original thinking about it.

Remember that people in Yeshiva are also alienated from society. So, even if both were academically or vocationally equal (they are not), one looses by going to Yeshiva, for he is trained to be a misfit, and not trust society.

".....and an electrician needs to study electrical engineering."

Well, actually a budding electrician needs to study electrical INSTALLATION AND REPAIR. They don't teach how to pull wire or how to bend conduit or how to hoist a 3-phase 1 hp motor into position or how to keep from getting electrocuted in engineering school.

...and an electrician doesn't need to do pole-zero analysis or integrated circuit design.

I did both Yeshiva studies and a degree in a Humanities-related field, and I believe the rabbi is right.

If secular educational institutions and college graduates with liberal arts degrees are recognized as valid, so should their yeshiva counterparts.

I am not frum anymore but what's right is right.

this guy has the look of a goilem who has no incling about the reality of this world where you need math and science to make it.

Anuran, I have a graduate degree in lit and I couldn't have said it better. (The ultra-Orthodox think Artscroll "novels" are great literature.) Culture is dying, and religious fundamentalists are assisting in killing it.

In fact, some employers like English majors because they can think, read, and write critically. Those are skills that are needed in today's information society.

Shanah tovah.

“A person who wants to be a doctor, should go to medical school and an electrician needs to study electrical engineering."

Actually, this is a vast improvement in Haredi attitudes. Didn't they traditionally say that one needs only study Toireh, because everything that anyone ever needs to know is included in it. Who needs a medical or electrical engineering degree. I bet you can't point to a SINGLE GREAT GADOL who ever studied for an electrical engineering degree.

“A person who wants to be a doctor, should go to medical school and an electrician needs to study electrical engineering."

Actually, this is a vast improvement in Haredi attitudes. Didn't they traditionally say that one needs only study Toireh, because everything that anyone ever needs to know is included in it. Who needs a medical or electrical engineering degree. I bet you can't point to a SINGLE GREAT GADOL who ever studied for an electrical engineering degree.

Posted by: rebeljew | September 28, 2011 at 10:14 AM

I can point to one, but he's was a lousy student.

Once again, justification for the existence of a yeshiva education cannot be established as a secular education, through any number of colleges and universities is subject to inspection and scrutiny of state and federal officials. Whereas, in most cases, the yeshiva requires that you just have to take their word for the cirriculum and student performance level.

First Gen Bav
Isn't zero pole analysis related to digital filtering (frequencies)?

Sorry, my post should have been addressed to anuran.

If secular educational institutions and college graduates with liberal arts degrees are recognized as valid, so should their yeshiva counterparts.
----------
Only if the yeshiva students are required to take and pass courses in English literature, communication, science, math and humanities to graduate.

I have a degree in veterinary medicine but worked my entire career as a software engineer. I learned NOTHING in university (Big 10 school) of any worth whatsoever. My father always said that "I should have sent the little thug to trade school".

If hareidim weren't so tainted by immorality and "hatred for goyim", their logic skills and yeshiva-taught ability to look at things in an unusual manner (justifying Talmud as a legitimate religion requires such as skill) would be an asset to engineering and scientific professions.

As I said, the problem is not training, its the perverted morality and sensibilities that fester in the hareidi yeshiva world.

So conversely, since I have a college degree, I'm qualified to teach at a Yeshiva and collect public assistance? Think Rabbi Eichler will give me a job?

Yechiel, that is certainly one application of the technique. Electrical engineering undergrads have to study it. Electricians don't

their only concern, is for salary scale purpose.

Well he kind of has a point . . . kind of. If, for instance, we were talking about a degree in religious studies vs. a degree in history, both leaving the graduate equally unemployable. But as other posters have mentioned, the isolation of the yeshiva system further handicaps those with useless or frivolous degrees (I mean in the sense that they don't make one employable, not that the studies themselves don't have merit).

batyahgirl, he doesn't have a point. A religious studies major at an accredited college has to complete a course of study that meets certain objective standards from course content to teacher qualifications. He or she has to sit exams, learn the fundamentals of research, critical thinking and communications.

A yeshiva bench warmer need do none of this.

How would this neanderthal know about a college education?

The two aren't equal. The focus is on different things and each has a totally different world view. But if the good rabbi wants to make his point, he should go to industry and convince employers to hire his graduates and see if they are assets to the company. Then he will have what to talk about.
As to control of his educational system; if he takes the king's shilling he must do the king's bidding. If he wants to be free from the king he must finance his schools himself.

Humanities and social pseudo science degrees are ecological crimes. They cut down trees to make the paper these degrees are printed on. So this guy wants to waste more trees?

They are equal. Neither one gives you job skills.

I learned NOTHING in university (Big 10 school) of any worth whatsoever.
----------------------------------
I doubt this is literally true. One would think some basic arithmetic skills and reading is needed to do software engineering, at least to read the manuals. But perhaps this was already learned in high school? Even so, somewhere, one learned to be "educated", to have a certain discipline, to be organized, to concentrate, to have a sense of project completion. These skills are absorbed in college even if the content of the class is not relevant. There is an intellectual maturity that is learned in college too. I don't think that one has to go overboard with "education" and certainly we can question whether FOUR YEARS of liberal arts are needed, but I find it hard to believe that a college degree can be worth zero, unless the student decides to make it zero.

f hareidim weren't so tainted by immorality and "hatred for goyim", their logic skills and yeshiva-taught ability to look at things in an unusual manner (justifying Talmud as a legitimate religion requires such as skill) would be an asset to engineering and scientific professions.

As I said, the problem is not training, its the perverted morality and sensibilities that fester in the hareidi yeshiva world.

Posted by: R. Wisler | September 28, 2011 at 12:45 PM
===================================

I like this last part. In theory, a Yeshivah education should count to being
"educated" too. If reading skills are picked up, one *should* learn the skills of hard work, concentration, goal seeking, showing up on time, discipline, organization, project completion, teamwork, manners/etiquette and maturity in Yeshivah. This intellectual maturity is extremely important, and if someone learns how to learn they should be able to function in many ways. I think this commenter has hit upon something very important, that hopefully can be discussed with facts and rationality: this issue about the cultural values being absorbed in a Yeshivah (there are many different Yeshivah's btw. A real journalist would attempt to capture that too)

The yeshivas in NY stole my college TAP award this summer! The yeshivas also stole my youth, as they hosted me for 15 years and taught me nothing to prepare for college. After 15 years of schooling (not), I arrived to college (ah shanda!) as the most foreign ignoramus in America.

...as the most foreign ignoramus in America.

Posted by: CALA NY | October 02, 2011 at 06:12 AM

I didn't say it; you admitted it by your own free will...

R. Wisler I also went to a Big Ten school (curious which one you went to) and gained no job or even practical life skills to speak of. My first job out of school was as a bus boy. I found college to be a horrendous waste of time and money. Would I say that I learned nothing? Obviously if I studied something I learned something. But the question is, was it worth the time and money. Answer: No, it was not worth it. I work in the financial field and don't use any of the calculus I studied nor the economics. College is a scam.

Martians.

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