A Dialogue with Rabbi Yosef Feldman About Child Sexual Abuse

Rabbi Yosef Feldman, the  chief rabbi of the Orthodox rabbinic organization representing Sydney, Australia and surrounding areas is a prominent Chabad follower. He has been under fire because of leaked emails that showed him advocating not calling police in cases of alleged child sex abuse. Here is an extended email dialogue with Rabbi Feldman about the charges against him, child sex abuse, and my posts about him.

 

My entire email exchange with Rabbi Feldman is posted below, minus several emails between the end of Rabbi Feldman's second response and the beginning of his third (in which Rabbi Feldman noted that he needed more time to answer because of circumstances that arose unexpectedly, and to which I responded without pushing him to meet his deadlines).

His first email to me is dated August 29th. He asks for more time to respond on August 30th, and his response is finally made today, September 4th:

Rabbi Feldman's first email to me:

BS"D

Dear Shmarya

I tried to post this but it didn't go through...

This is Rabbi Yosef Feldman.

I don't know whether you'll have the decency to post this. I'll be brief for now,

 1) The AJN clearly reported even in their first article that I advocated Rabbis, only when legally allowed and never when it goes against the law.

2) I've stated that a Rabbi ONLY IN CONJUNCTION WITH AN EXPERT, as is the view of the Agudah, could make a decision re the veracity etc. of a complaint. This was omitted by the AJN initially which is one of the reasons they apologized and with what was reported re Rabbi Rosenberg.

3) Maybe you should better be exposing the proponents of running to the police, that when it comes to their own family members (as we Jews should consider each other), how they actually come running to Rabbis for (references and) help and certainly have tried and try to cover up.

I've had 2 people who lashed out against me publicly and when I reminded one how when his son was involved in an armed robbery approx 10 years ago he came running to me for a reference and for general help and didn't just rely on the police, he then apologized profusely to me and the other a Rabbi who didn't realize that I knew that he actually covered up real child sex abuse with someone in his extended family and didn't report it to the police when a family member of his congregation complained to him on behalf of the victim, and acted strongly in covering up the abuse... and then after I made a fool out of him, he had to explain to me that Poskim hold differently today than a few years ago...

Re Rabbi Rosenberg I don't know what he reported or even what he or someone in his family may have been up to in the past that he may be trying to cover up, being such a proponent... but besides the many discrepancies reported, one vital thing that was omitted (as was with the AJN) as mentioned above was me asking him that just as police get experts to verify etc., what's wrong if a Rabbi also involves experts initially as principals do, according to the law, before they're required to report abuse, to which he had no response. I actually was quite surprised when he told me that he immediately reports abuse to the police before hearing  details from the victim. I just wonder if a son of his was accused of molesting a child whether he would immediately report it. Actually maybe I'll accuse a son of his (as many may do when they have an issue with someone...) and let's see if he'll go running to the police... LOL.. I don't understand how he's taken so seriously...

I never told him to stop giving speeches and I actually allowed him to talk to teachers and others in Yeshiva of the good he has achieved and the importance of vigilance in this area etc.

The reported lies in my case really reflect the lack of integrity of your site which its motto is supposed to be exposing the truth and this is actually my issue with always immediately reporting etc. and I expect an apology from Failed Messiah and if not I will consider all my options and very quickly...
 
Awaiting your prompt response...

My response to Rabbi Feldman:

First of all, thankfully I don't live in Australia and I'm not subject to its draconian libel laws or to your threats.

Now lets talk tachlis.

I think you're basing your decision on bad facts.

If you look at the data available in the US, you'll see that false accusations of child sexual abuse (outside of divorce cases involving child custody) is minuscule, less than 3%. In child custody cases that number is significantly higher, but still less than rov.

Police in the US have special officers who are trained to ferret out and eliminate false accusations, and in almost every case, the first thing police do after gathering evidence, interviewing the child, etc., is to go through very specific checks to make sure to the best of any human being's ability that the charges are true.

When rabbis and other laypeople – even social workers, etc. – preempt that process by doing their own investigation before contacting police, they can compromise evidence and make prosecution of the child molester difficult or even impossible. And these laypeople and outside experts are rarely trained in forensic child sex abuse investigations and, even when they are, they lack the legal powers to do an investigation properly.

On top of that, there is a natural bias to protect your own, be that a family member, a close friend, or a colleague. The history with Agudah shows years of actively and passively covering up for rabbis who ended up molesting hundreds of students during their careers. Even though Rabbi Eliezer Silver (look him up if you don't know the name) advocated calling police immediately, as did Rabbi Moshe Feinstein, Agudah did what it thought was the correct thing. Literally hundreds of lives were ruined as a result.

As you know, many rabbonim hold there is no mesira in a democracy where Jews and Gentiles are equal citizens. And of the rabbis who disagree with that position, the vast majority do hold that there is no mesira for violent crimes like murder, armed home invasion, and rape.

For you to hold the way you do means one of two things: a) you believe that murderers and rapists should not be reported to police unless a rabbi first investigates and approves reporting or, b) you believe child sexual abuse is not a crime on par with rape or a home invasion.

The medical literature is quite clear on the effects of child sexual abuse on the victim. Victims suffer sexually, emotionally and even physically for many years, sometimes for their whole lives. They have a much higher incidence rate of suicide, suicide attempts, substance abuse and divorce. And rabbis who work with what you might call "at risk" or off the derech kids will tell you that the vast majority of those kids were sexually abused. Jewish kids prostituting themselves on the streets of Manhattan – and there are plenty of formerly frum kids doing this, even kids from good Chabad families – are almost all victims of child sexual abuse.

Those are the facts. They're frightening and they're very sad. We all wish they were not true. But they are.

I get the feeling that while you may have heard these facts previously, for whatever reason you did not mekkabel them.

But now you have the opportunity to do great good.

If you would stand up, admit that you were wrong, and explain that for whatever reason you did not understand the facts and pathology of child sexual abuse, but now after looking into it more deeply you realize that you were wrong – if you would do that, withdraw your opinion that reporting child sex abuse to police is mesira, and urge people to call police to report child sex abuse, you could do a great Kiddush HaShem, and you would certainly save the lives of children, as well.

If you're uncertain about the facts I presented, check them out. They are easily verified. Call your local police sex crimes unit. Meet with an investigator, if you want. Call Rabbi Yosef Blau at Yeshiva University and ask him about rabbinic coverups. Your hair will stand on end.

Do what whatever you need to do to verify what I've told you.

And then do the right thing, admit your error and urge people to report child sex abuse to police.

You'll save lives.

As for your email, I'll add it to my most recent post about you now.

I hope I'll be able to do another post soon that reports your change of heart.

Rabbi Feldman responds:

Thanks for your prompt response.

Re libel laws actually to my knowledge I think that the reverse is true. Can you back up your assertion?

With regard to my email discussion it was in the context of a friend who was being accused of child molestation that when reported to police 20 years ago it was thrown out and the same is what took place again. When I confronted the father he had told me that his son had really never told him what took place which is quite suspicious to me as I'm sure you can understand. I really think that hearsay allegations should be verified before being reported as most would act if one's own family member was accused. We should consider all Yidden as family members as you felt regarding Ethiopians. Just now in Melbourne a young man was accused by a Soine of child molestation and with all the hype of reporting he thought that the person would be believed and he actually tried to kill himself by slitting his own throat and just missed a main artery.

I certainly agree that once there is a genuine suspicion of abuse it should be immediately reported to the authorities and I never claimed to the contrary as does the Agudah that once a Rov feels (and if he has an ounce of doubt of what constitutes abuse etc then to make this decision in conjunction with an expert) that there is real suspicion of genuine abuse it obviously should be immediately reported. This is the law in NSW Australia that mandatory reporting is only if there's reasonable grounds to suspect that a child is at risk of significant harm to then have to report it and I just gave Rabbonim the courtesy to be on par with a teacher etc.with the added benefit of a true Rov having real Ahavas Yisroel to all and would deal accordingly. With regard to abuse of decades ago for someone who experts agree has been rehabilitated etc. whether Torah agrees to report him to go to jail is another discussion.

Based on the above there is no difference between murder, rape, child abuse or for that matter any abuse and they should all be reported but as I wrote in my emails, with murder or many instances of rape it's clear if it has taken place whereas with abuse it is much easier to falsely accuse someone. The statistics mean nothing if the accused is your father, brother or son as it didn't make a difference to you to help the Ethiopians even if they were less than one percent of the Jewish population and sofek Jewish at that.

I urge you to do the right thing and if you're really interested in the emes amend your article accordingly. Saying I'm a liar (unless you can show me how) is not only Loshoin Horo but Moitsee Shem Ru and being mulbin ponuy borabim.

I also urge you to take on board what I have really been advocating as I'm sure if you were really honest with yourself this is how you would behave if your family member was accused. These attitudes of mine really come about because I am someone who tries to be constantly actively involved in Ahavas Yisroel. Just look at the comments on COL lately and even on Crownheights info when there was even the negative reporting re myself. As you have been yourself involved in Ahavas Yisroel with your involvement with the Ethiopians and I dun you lekuf zechus that this is your intent with this site generally I do hope and trust that you'll actually behave accordingly with myself now.

I would appreciate you posting this also but obviously more important for me is for you to change your expletives regarding myself  even if you don't have it in you to be like the secular non religious press who actually realised their mistake and apologised but I do hope you do.

Kol Tuv

My response to Rabbi Feldman:

As you know, we go according to rov, meaning that we follow what the normal case is, not the extreme case. As I pointed out to previously, the vast majority of all non-divorce child abuse cases are true. False accusations are less than 3%. And even in divorce cases, the rov are true.

This means that the position you are advocating is biased toward the accused in an abnormal, non-halakhic fashion. You are exceedingly concerned that accused pedophiles get every consideration even though almost every one is actually guilty, and yet you show little to no concern for the alleged victims, almost every one of which is, sadly, a victim of child sex abuse.

As for "curing" pedophile with therapy, the recidivism rate is astronomically high. If you look in peer reviewed medical literature and in peer reviewed criminal justice literature, you'll find ample proof of that.

But eve if that were not true, halakha does not recognize a statute of limitations for crimes. Even if a person has truly refrained from committing the particular sin for years and feels full regret for what he did wrong, he still must pay compensation and be given the penalty – lashes, etc. – the crime demands.

Teshuva is not an escape from punishment or an escape from justice.

As I mentioned earlier, reporting child sex abuse cases to rabbis has led to pedophiles being protected by those rabbis while more children are victimized. There are literally dozens of cases like this, from the case of Rabbi Yehuda Kolko to what, it seems, are several cases in Melbourne with dozens of victims covered up by Rabbi Groner, a"h. You did not address this point.

I pointed out that rabbis do not have the training to determine whether allegations of cild sex abuse are true, and this is another point you failed to address.

I also pointed out to you that rabbis lack the bailiff powers to conduct a forensic investigation, that experts outside the police also lack those powers, and that attempts by rabbis to investigate child sex abuse often contaminates evidence and makes it difficult for the government to properly prosecute these people. You did not address this point, either.

And I pointed out the destruction child sex abuse causes and the lives it destroys, how it truly destroys its victims, and this is another point you did not address.

Lastly, you urge me to think about this issue as if it were a family member of mine accused of child sex abuse and you say this is part of your position, that we're all family, and we need to view cases of suspected child sex abuse in this way.

But if we are all family, aren't the victims are family, too? How would you handle it if it were your son who came to you and claimed he was sexually abused?

As I noted above and previously, the statistics are clear: the vast majority of accused child sex abusers (outside divorce cases) are guilty. The victims' accusations are real. Even within divorce cases, the majority are real (although the number of false accusations is higher).

You're asking people to act as if these numbers were reversed, as if most accused pedophiles were really innocent, and as if most victims are actually lying.

I think that is an unreasonable position morally, ethically, factually and halakhicly and I'm surprised you still advocate it.

As for Australia's libel laws, their extreme nature is well known and accepted as such by legal experts inside and outside the country. Any attorney who practices libel law should be able to confirm this for you.

Rabbi Feldman's response:

Dear Shmarya

Sorry for not responding until now as I've been extremely busy today in Australia which was your evening. I  appreciate your detailed responses and you certainly continue to have valid points. I would like to comment on them and explain further my thoughts on this very important issue but I would appreciate having a private and confidential continued dialogue with yourself by email and if you agree to that and we ultimately come to some conclusion that we both can agree to which could include in some points to respectfully agree to disagree then maybe we can together come out with final statements regarding myself and my views that would be acceptable to both of us. Do you agree to that?

Regards

[The series of emails between Rabbi Feldman and I discussing his request for delay are omitted for sake of brevity.]

Rabbi Feldman's third response:

For the sake of clarity and that there should be no misunderstanding of my position on this very serious matter  I would like to state that I unequivocally support the ruling of the Melbourne and Sydney Botei Din that have made statements on this matter and the Rabbinical Council of Victoria and the Rabbinical Council of NSW -under my presidency- that have mandated reporting on any form of credible alleged child abuse.

Also for the sake of clarity and to give the proper background of the email exchange between the rabbis in which I was quoted, I would like to quote the rulings given by the Rabbinical Council of America and by the Agudath Israel of America.


"1. The Rabbinic Council of America ruled in April 2010 that there is an obligation to report credible allegations of sexual abuse to the secular legal authorities, and that there is no prohibition of
mesira in doing so. This RCA reiterated this position on July 25th 2011.   There are four important components to their ruling:
·     All Jews who have or first-hand-knowledge or a reasonable suspicion sexual or physical abuse of children are obligated by Torah Law to report this immediately to the secular legal authorities.  Failure to report constitutes a biblical violation of “You shall not stand idly upon the blood of your brother….”
· 
·     The prohibition of mesira simply does not apply when making reports of sexual or physical abuse to the secular authorities.
·     Mandated reporters, such as therapists, must follow the mandated reporting laws imposed by the secular authorities even in cases where Jewish Law would not require that a report be made.
·     If someone is truly uncertain whether the facts he or she has become aware of are reasonable grounds for suspicion, he or she should seek guidance from a rabbi and/or mental health professional as appropriate. However, in a case where it is clear that the basis for suspicion of abuse is valid, and all the more so when one has first-hand knowledge, it is not necessary to ask a rabbi for a ruling before calling the secular legal authorities.

2. The Agudath Israel’s statement of July 22, 2011 includes the following key provisions:
·     All Jews who learn of credible allegations that a child is being sexually or physically abused are obligated by Jewish Law to report this to the secular legal authorities. This obligation, based on “tikkun olam” and “other important principles” (unspecified the their ruling) pushes aside any prohibitions (i.e. including mesira).
·     According to this opinion, the level of evidence required in order to achieve “probable cause” (raglayim la-davar) is a halakhic matter which requires a decision by a qualified posek. In other words, according to this statement issued by the Agudah, before anyone calls the secular authorities, he or she should first consult with a qualified rabbi in order to determine if the basis for suspicion is sufficient evidence to file a report.
·     The obligation to report, according to the Agudah, is based only on Jewish law considerations and not on any mandatory reporting provisions in the secular law.  In other words, according to the Agudah, a therapist or any other mandated reporter must also first consult with a posek before reporting suspicions of abuse to the authorities.

Practically speaking, the only difference in their ruling for the lay public is whether a Rabbi must be called first before reporting first-hand knowledge or a reasonable suspicion of child abuse to the secular authorities. "

The Botei Dinim and Rabbinic Councils in Australia have followed the ruling of the RCA.

The email discussion included explaining the ruling of the Agudah and querying why we don't follow their ruling  and other associated queries.

As you may know I have apologised publicly both to my Rabbinic colleagues and to the general community for sending this Rabbinic dialogue to some Rabbis, who I didnt know, resulting in the email exchange being publicised and quoted out of context etc.

I must also add that, as reported by the AJN, many Rabbis who received the emails and who I have subsequently contacted, have all stated in writing that the email exchange was only a discussion of a Rabbinic debate on this matter and my views in the discussion were certainly suggestive and at times even playing devils' advocate. 

 I say suggestive for, besides that it's not my position as President of RCNSW to give Halachic rulings for the State as that is the Beth Dins' jurisdiction, also even as Rabbinic policy I wouldn't come out with one without agreement of the Council. It was clearly evident as such in the emails as I begin them with Toiroh hee velilmoid unee tsorich (i.e. an adage meaning "It is Torah and I need to learn it") and I constantly use the expressions of licheoiro (i.e.it seems) and invite comment. The only definitive statements were my views in the meaning of the view of the Agudah.

  Once again I would like to emphatically call for immediate reporting to the authorities of all credible allegations as is the loshoin used by the above mentioned Gedoilim. I have actually done so on two occasions and the persons involved were dealt with. This that someone mentions in a comment that I've tried to cover up abuse I reject completely and I believe it to be an outright lie.  I challenge this person to contact me and let me know what they're referring to.


My only issues in my email exchanges were and are:

 1) How to avoid false allegations that when reported, in many instances, the consequent investigations can begin to ruin one's reputation and hence my query why a Rov who is both discreet and who has Ahavas Yisroel to all parties shouldn't verify first with an expert as is the view of the Agudah. Your response that a Rov and expert wouldn't be able to do a good enough investigation I accept if they would feel after their investigations that there's some truth to the allegations and further investigation is required.  Furthermore as a response to considering the abuser a roidef I queried that in a false allegation aderube the false accuser and those who immediately report without checking the veracity of the complaint could be considered a roidef in certain instances with serious Halachic ramifications. In truth I had wondered why the Agudah first needs a Rov and an expert to verify if there's credible suspicion doesn't anyone with common sense know this?

 I recently realised that fraudsters like this "Rabbi" Rosenberg fellow -who has been publicly excommunicated by 33 Rabbis in his community for his deceitfulness and conduct that is totally inconsistent with any religious and moral principles-, who reports any hearsay abuse (I heard him say that he doesn't check any details but reports immediately) and doesn't care about false allegations as he's shown with myself, obviously has at the very least no common sense to realise what's credible and it seems is quick to be malicious to defame other to make himself into a "hero". Also there are many others who lack common sense or are angry at others and can falsely accuse. I can now understand why Agudah requires to report to a 1) a Rov to negate an outright phony and false accusation and 2) an expert involved with all Rabbis for those "Rabbis" who lack common sense to realise what is credible....


 This that you say we should go bossor roiv and therefore not worry about the 3% etc. of false allegations doesn't apply in serious inyonim in Yiddishkeit beginning with kee atem humeut mikol houmim and even in Hilchois Taaruvos; kovua and devorim chushuvim aren't bottel etc. Even in secular law one of the main reasons capital punishment is outlawed in most of the Western world is for the very minimal chance of a mistake. There is also the famous principle of innocent until proven guilty. You also continue to query that, this that I wrote to consider the alleged abuser as one of your family, why don't I consider the abused as a family member? To that I respond that we should consider both to be part of one's family and react accordingly. I don't think that in such an instance any alleged abuse of one son to another would be immediately reported by a father prior to basic investigation...

This that you write that Rabbis haven't taken the issues seriously in the past and many have covered up is a good point. You also quote Rabbi Groner ZT"L. I've heard from a family member that after it was revealed the seriousness of that case he clearly indicated that he had made a mistake. I also think that in previous generations it wasn't well known the extent and ramifications of abuse. Today  people generally and certainly Rabbis are much more aware and they would certainly do the right thing and for all parties concerned.

With regard to being "cured" I think once again it isn't correct to generalise and act on that basis but every case must be judged on an individual basis based on case history as determined by experts always taking into account and adhering to the law of the land. Also with regard to punishments and statute of limitations in Halacha, it is correct that there is no time limit in that regard but there certainly would be with regard to punishments  that Bais Din can impose with shivo tuvey hoir etc keday ligdoir perets etc.

2) My second suggestion which began in my first email was, whatever our obligations are legally, does this mean that we as a Jewish community don't have to act? Where is the Geoin Yaakoiv? Why do we have to be impotent by not taking responsibility ourselves  (obviously in addition to having these issues dealt with by the appropriate authorities) as Jewish leaders? We should be able to deal with these issues by not just being passive but we should be more proactive in this issue generally and individually by warning any potential offender and for that matter the community at large that the Botei Dinim would enforce their rights to punish offenders keday ligdoir perets etc. This suggestion was wrongly taken as though I suggested it to replace reporting to the authorities. This was totally clearly rejected by myself by endorsing the RCV and the consequent RCNSW policies.
I conclude with the following quote from Rabbi Yitzchok Adlerstein’.  that I wholeheartedly agree with:
It is time to forever bury the myth that reports of pedophilia can be managed and dealt with by committees of rabbonim, even for a short time. It is time to bury the myth that there is a serious halachic barrier to going to authorities to deal with credible reports of such behavior. Enough baalei halacha have told us that there is no barrier.
Choshen Mishpat 388:12 tells us that those who vex the public can be handed over. Any pedophile does at least that, and poses a danger of doing much more. Moreover, mesirah of a molester exposes him to a safek of danger; pedophiles pose a much greater danger level to many more victims.
 (http://www.cross-currents.com/archives/2011/07/14/yadei

I hope that this clarifies the issues with regard to myself and I invite sincere comment...

My response to Rabbi Feldman's last email, which is posted immediately above:

Rabbi Feldman avoids confirming the actual statistics of false child sexual abuse allegations and he misstates the role of rov, deciding based on the majority, in Jewish law.

To give one clear example, he says that in ta'aruvot, mixtures of permitted and non-permitted foods, we don't decide by the majority.

This is false.

In ta'aruvot, we DO decide by the majority, to the extent that, if you have three pieces of meat in your home, one of which is non-kosher and two of which are kosher, and you have no idea which is which – all pieces are deemed kosher.

Even more than that, you are supposed to eat all three.You can't decide to leave one out or to throw all three out.

Rashi's opinion, which is a minority opinion, is that you should cook all three pieces of meat and then eat some or all of each at every meal this meat is served.

This halakha of rov and non-kosher meet applies even if we're talking about three entire cows or three room-sized vats of meat – or, for that matter three entire objects, because the halakha of rov is used throught Jewish law to decide all types of cases.

Rov, deciding by the majority or usual occurence is even used in medical issues. Rabbi Moshe Feinstein, for example, the leading decisor of Jewish law in the last third of the 20th century, used rov to determine whether an extremely ill patient must, according to Jewish law, try a medical treatment to save his life. If the treatment is successful more than 50% of the time, he must use it. If not, he may decline (although even then Rav Moshe finds reasons why he should try the treatment, until the treatment's success rate becomes very low – about the same rate as false allegations of child sexual abuse in non-custodial cases. At this point, Rav Moshe questions whether the patient even has the right to chose to try the treatment.

In other words, Jewish law does use rov, deciding by the majority or by the normal occurrence, in serious issues as well as in less serious issues.

In fact, the rule is that the halakha of rov applies everywhere unless Jewish law has already stated that it does not apply.

When doesn't rov apply?

Here are two cases:

1. A special rabbinic edict, din baria, views a whole bug, no matter how small, as essentially un-negatable. Therefore a whole bug that falls into a mixture of food and which can't be found and removed will make the entire mixture non-kosher.

However, if the bug is not whole – meaning completely intact – it is negated the same way everything else is.

(The remark in the New Testament attributed to Jesus that the Pharisees won't eat an gnat but will eat an entire camel is probably referring to this.)

2. Mixtures of meat and milk also are judged more strictly by a rabbinic decree that requires 60 parts of milk (or more) against 1 part of meat, or the reverse, for the food to be kosher. This decree is relatively recent and primarily Ashkenazi. Sefardim can still rely on what Jewish law considers to be the primary way of determining cases like this – taste. If a professional chef or highly skilled non-Jewish cook tastes the mixture and says she doesn't taste the minority ingredient, the mixture is kosher and everyone eats it.

At any rate, Rabbi Feldman's understanding of the halakha of rov is in error.

Rabbi Feldman is also quick to label Rabbi Nuchem Rosenberg a "fraudster" because he reports all allegations of abuse to police without first checking them out to see if they are valid accusations.

He also speaks of rabbis evaluating questionable cases before they are reported to police in order to prevent false allegations.

As Rabbi Rosenberg has said many times, and as I noted above in the email Rabbi Feldman was trying to respond to, rabbis do not have the training or the legal power to do a proper forensic investigation of alleged child sex abuse. Neither does a psychologist or a social worker, unless they are working for the government's child welfare service and have been specifically trained in forensic evaluation of alleged child sex abuse and have been tasked with investigating it.

I also pointed out that amateur investigations of child sex abuse can easily destroy evidence and taint the case irreparably in the favor of the abuser.

Rabbi Feldman ignoreded these points.

He also ignored the fact that many of the 33 rabbis who excommunicated Rabbi Rosenberg are currently involved in active coverups of alleged cases of child sex abuse, and that they have allowed accused pedophiles continued access to children as teachers in yeshivas.

Rabbi Feldman's desire to hav ethe Jewish community act against child sex abusers is admirable – but only after police have been notified and have done what they need to do first, or in a situation when, for whatever reason, police do not do their duty to investigate and protect the child.

Rabbi Feldman also says that with respect to curing pedophiles, it is wrong to "generalise" and that every case should be taken on its own merit.

The problem is that the recidivism rate for pedophiles is astronomically high, well more than rov. And these are cases where the pedophile has been caught and convicted a second time, and as any law enforcement professional, criminal justice professor or psychologist/psychiatrist dealing with pedophilia will tell you, most pedophiles are never caught.

So a recidivism rate nudging 90% is nothing one should ignore.

If evaluation from skilled medical professionals (not in any way linked to the Jewish community or to pro-pedophilia groups like NABLA) do a full evaluation of a particular offender and find him to be extremely unlikely to re-offend, a case can be made to allow that offender some sense of normalcy with the Jewish community – excluding the ability to work around children or to be alone with children.

But certainly the vast majority of offenders will never be deemed to be extremely unlikely to re-offend.

And, in any case, we should be deciding these cases by what is the normal occurrence – not by what is abnormal.

And then there is one more factor to consider here.

The average pedophile has about 100 victims during the time span he is abusing kids.

So each case of alleged child sex abuse should not be viewed as one accuser versus one accused pedophile.

It should correctly be viewed as one accuser and many more potential victims versus one accused pedophile.

What Rabbi Feldman wrongly and consistently does is view the accuser and the accused as equal, and then effectively opt to protect the abuser whenever possible.

If halakha uses rov to decide what a person must do to save his own life, certainly it does the same for what a community must do to protect the lives of its members.

And, again, the statistics are very clear.

Outside of custody cases, there are almost zero cases of false child sex abuse allegations.

Pedophiles almost always re-offend.

A pedophile abuses on average about 100 children in his career.

Rabbis have been astoundingly bad at dealing with cases of alleged child sexual abuse, repeatedly protecting the pedophile, who then goes on to molest many more children, while forcing the victims to not report the pedophile to police.

Literally hundreds of children have been sexually abused in Brooklyn alone, simply because of the rulings of rabbis linked to Agudath Israel of America.

And when you factor in the case of Rabbi Baruch Lanner, who physically, emotionally and sexually abused hundreds of children during his years with NCSY, while the Orthodox Union (NCSY's parent organization) covered up that abuse and protected Lanner, it becomes clear that even Modern Orthodox rabbis and institutions cannot be trusted to evaluate or deal with alleged child sex abuse.

I don't think Rabbi Rosenberg is lying or mistaken about his conversation with Rabbi Feldman.

From his answers to me and from other information I've received, I still believe he wants allegations of child sex abuse to be dealt with by rabbis, not by police, and I think that anything he has said that seems to indicate the contrary is meant to help him keep his job and avoid possible criminal prosecution.

No normal, honest person wants to see an innocent person be wrongly accused.

But no normal, honest person wants a kid or dozens of kids to be sexually abused.

From the cases we know about so far, it is clear that allowing rabbis to make the call on whether or not an allegation is credible ensures that many more children will be sexually abused.

Even if Rabbi Feldman's points were halakhicly valid – and they are clearly not valid – rabbis' actions until now have voided there credibility in this matter.

They have proven conclusively and frequently, across affiliations and across continents, for decades that they cannot correctly handle allegations of child sex abuse.

Call police, not rabbis.

You'll save lives – which is more than rabbios have done in generations.

 

Comments

[abc]

Feldman is not a mature adult.

[andre]

What would "Rabbi" Feldman say about the case of David Kramer with Rabbi Groner just giving him a one way ticket out of town?

[Hersh Man]

Go Shmarya Go Shmarya Go!!!!! This reminds me of the dialoge between Eliyahu Hanavi and The worshipers of baal - where Elyahu implores the Jews to dedicate themselves to Hashem and fight evil! May Hashem be with you Shmarya as hewas with Eliyahu and may he destroy evil peoples intesntions of allowing precious young boys be raped and ruined their whole lives. Before calling the police you should say a special yehi ratzon that this great big mitzva should be for the sake of heaven and tell the police everything you know and everything you think you know. Let them investigate and then you you can say your hands did not spill teses childrens blood!!!

[Baruch Pelta]

"I've stated that a Rabbi ONLY IN CONJUNCTION WITH AN EXPERT, as is the view of the Agudah, could make a decision re the veracity etc. of a complaint."

The statement said a person -- and even a mandatory reporter -- has to go to "a rabbi who is expert in halacha and who also has experience in the area of abuse and molestation – someone who is fully sensitive both to the gravity of the halachic considerations and the urgent need to protect children." Then the statement favorably quotes Rabbi Yehuda Silman, who maintains that “of course it is assumed that the rabbi will seek the advice of professionals in the field as may be necessary.”

[ultra haredi lite]

Shmarya,
A brilliant piece of reporting. Kudos to you!

[ultra haredi lite]

Impressive scholarship too!

[Shmarya]

Thank you.

[Sohn of Schneer]

It is pieces like this that justify my spending valuable time reading and relying on FM daily.

You know what you are talking about and, based on personal contact, I can attest that you also are very scrupulous about verifying everything you post.

Your reporting is heads above much of what other Jewish media offer.

Kol hakavod!!

[steve]

Shmarya,

Great job!

[Miami]

Nice reporting shmarya

[Deremes]

"Rabbi Feldman is also quick to label Rabbi Nuchem Rosenberg a "fraudster" because he reports all allegations of abuse to police without first checking them out to see if they are valid accusations."

Just wondering:
Is this the same rabbi Rosenberg who was shot in the head and the Police refused to make a report?

is this also the one who claims that the reason why so many rabaonim signed a kol korah against him becuase they are themselves child molesters?

Is this also the same rabbi Rosenberg who claims that 40 to 70 precent of frum teenagers are on drugs?
Is this also the same rabbi Rosenberg who claims that every mikvah on planet earth which he didnt do the plumbing is pousel?

Anyone?

[Common Sense]

Shmarya...thank you for standing up on behalf of the children. FYI: Your facts and data on the matter of false child abuse claims are accurate. For those interested, see http://www.leadershipcouncil.org/1/res/csa-acc.html
Well done!

[Common Sense]

http://leadershipcouncil.org/docs/Trocme.pdf
One more article from an academic journal on the topic for all my academic brethren out there.

[Shmarya]

Posted by: Deremes | September 04, 2011 at 03:50 PM

Is this the same Deremes that always stands up for Satmar criminals, especially if they are Satmar rabbis?

Of course it is.

Are most of the rabbis who excommunicated Rabbi Nuchem Rosenberg Satmar rabbis?

Yes they are.

[Deremes]

Yes its the same Deremes.

Was the truth teller on whom you rely SHOT in the head?

[Deremes]

Many rabbis who signed against Rabbi Rsoenberg have NOTHING in common with Satmar.

[Shmarya]

Yes its the same Deremes.

Was the truth teller on whom you rely SHOT in the head?

Posted by: Deremes | September 04, 2011 at 04:49 PM
Deremes

Many rabbis who signed against Rabbi Rsoenberg have NOTHING in common with Satmar.

Posted by: Deremes | September 04, 2011 at 04:51 PM

Is this the same Rabbi Rosenberg who CORRECTLY outed more than a dozen pedophiles?

Yes it is.

Past the patently obvious points I've made about your honesty, it lack, and your intelligence and its very obvious lack, we have the far more important point I made clearly in my post: rabbis lack the training, knowledge and legal power to do a proper forensic child abuse investigation.

That fact, combined with rabbis' horrible track record in dealing with child sex abuse, makes it assur, forbidden, to rely on a rabbi to tell you if you can report suspected or alleged child sex abuse to police.

But you lack the halalkhic knowledge and the moral compass (and the brains) to grasp that – especially since several of the rabbis Nuchem Rosenberg has exposed or talked about on his hotline but who have not yet been brought to justice are Satmar rabbis, YOUR rabbis.

Even though victims have come forward these men still teach in SATMAR schools, protected by SATMAR rabbis – your rabbis.

And there ain't no way you're ever going to wrap your little mind around that.

[MarkfromShortHills]

This is first-rate journalism. You have gotten Feldman on record and anyone can read his responses to you. You have served as an excellent interlocutor and pointed out where Feldman neglected to address your arguments.

But ... when confronted with Deremes and the like, you lower yourself when you question his intelligence and when you use language such as "ain't no way you're ever going to wrap your little mind around that". It is sufficient to note his dishonesty and the facts you have marshaled.
To those who understand, nothing further is necessary; to those who don't, nothing further is possible

[Deremes]

Interesting that if anyone writes anything you dislike you go into insult mode.But that's ok if you cant make a point otherwise.

I haven't got much time left but in short, a person who claims that he was shot in the head and he wasn't can not be trusted on anything he says.

I know about him way more then you do.
You love this "rabbi" becuase he bashes frum Jews on a daily basis and that's your favorite.If he wouldn't of defame and inform on frum Jews,you would of probably have 10 posts a day what kind of person he is.He would be your prime example how bad frum Jews are.

Again,the guy claims he was shot in the head.
He claims that DA Hynes is on the payroll of the modesty committee and that's why he is not prosecuting any frum Jew.
He claims that every mikvah where he was not the plumber is pousel.
He claims the reason why the rabbis singed against him becuase they themselves are child molesters.
He went around almost smiling when the poor boy was butchered so he can prove a point.

There is a saying in yiddish: A bazem vos kart,vert schmutzig.Translate: a broom that sweeps gets dirty. And that's him.

Good night

[No Light]

Ah Der-mess, you're nothing if not wholly predictable. Who cares if thousands of lives are destroyed by molestation and rape, as long as no heilige yid has to deal with the evil, anti-semitic goyishe authorities eh?

You fucking shoteh.

I bet you'd advocate police action if someone committed a crime against your person. I bet you wouldn't go to your Rav if someone beat the living shit out of you, and left you for dead. Then again, maybe you really are that daft.

[No Light]

Mark - you're using what's called the 'tone argument'. That's when someone derails a discussion by saying "If only you were nicer, people would listen". The truth is that some people really are stupid and blinkered, and nothing will get through to them. Others have an agenda to push, and no amount of sugared reasoning will dissuade them. This is a subject to be angry about, a subject to take very seriously, and when fools like deremes mock attempts to shine light on a very serious problem then frankly, they deserve all they get.

Shmarya - forgot to say it in my original comment, but thanks for shining a light on this. It's nice to see the cockroaches scuttling and hissing as they're exposed.

[Deremes]

No Light,

Your a real duschbag
I wasn't talking at all about this.
My point here was about one particular liar rabbi who lives in fantasy and to prove his point he will make up a million lies and therefore he can not be believed on anything he says.He will destroy hundred lives to save one.
Thats my opinion becuase i know more about him then anyone posting here.

[devorah]

Shmarya, you win!

[would happily publish my name if it weren't for Aussie libel laws.]

Thank you Shmarya.

Our libel laws in Australia mean that we need people like you who are knowledgeable and clear thinkers to present the case properly.

We in Oz are very grateful to you.

[Asher Lipner, Ph.D.]

What struck me about Rabbi Feldman's comments is that he attributes to himself and all rabbis who think like him "true Ahavas Yisroel" even when it is clear that their actions have enabled thousands of Jewish children to be harmed.

But he does not spare an ounce of Ahavas Yisroel for Rabbi Nochem Rosenberg. Whatever you may think of his tactics and his approach, the man has done more to put molesters behind bars and expose them all over the world than almost anybody else, and all Jewish children are safer because of it.

Shmarya, amazing, amazing exposure of how the rabbis think. Thank you.

[ah-pee-chorus]

shmarya-

you made logical and accurate points peppered with an appropriate mix of common sense and halacha. thank you for continuing to be a voice for what is true and right. the highest form of altruism is when there is no expectation of knowledge or thanks from those being helped. saving kids from ever becoming victims of abuse by helping ensure that molesters arent permitted to gain refuge at the hands of rabbi-enablers is a perfect example of this.
great work!!
and i'm glad i live in a country where freedom of speech allows me to call feldman a slimy fool, as youve shown him to be.

[seymour]

Thats my opinion becuase i know more about him then anyone posting here.

Posted by: Deremes | September 04, 2011 at 05:50 PM

why don't you enlighten us

he might be off the wall, once must be to confront a whole community with their dirty laundry.

without him the child abuse that went on as is going on would still be a hidden secret

some like you are mad that he exposed it and same so called frum rebbies got arrested (if they were not help to escape to Israel) shattering the age old myth these things do not happen by us.

[Aussie]

Shmarya has once again showed why sites like FailedMessiah are needed....

Feldman is such a hypocrite....Notice his threat to sue Shmarya for libel....

Great job there Shmarya....You showed right through Feldmans lies and BS with a mix of logic and halacha....
Well done mate....and keep up the great work...

[seymour]

feldman argument what if it is a family member is nonsense, and that is why justice must be blind

That argument can be made for every accusation and every criminal, no one wants their brother, father, mother, sister to go to jail, even when they did a crime. therefore should we not lock anybody up? Should we say if that was you mother would you want her in jail?

Life and everything we do is choices, and we decide what is right or what is prudent based on experience and knowledge. We are human and can never be 100% sure

therefore since less than 3% of child abuse is false the prudent choice would be to report.
By not reporting there is a 97% chance you are allowing a child molester to molest again.

I really do not see what is so difficult
as i have said before i think the excuse we must protect the innocent from false accusation is really just a smoke screen for something else. what I am not sure.

[steve]

See Leviticus 20:5 with Rashi's commentary regarding how Hashem will punish family members and others who cover up for child abusers. Bottom line is that family members are the biggest cover up artists and R' Shimon in Maseches Shvuous explains why Hashem also punishes the family of the abuser who is allowed to go unpunished by the Jewish courts.

[Jemima Puddleduck]

This is a message for Yossi Feldman: Please don't forget the incident approximately 20 years ago when you prevented an abused woman from calling the police. That was typical behavior at the time, is it still the same policy at Yeshiva these days? You would publicly say "No" but I hear differently, as it was just a few months ago that an abused wife went to your father for assistance and was basically told she had to live with it. That story has spread far and wide, thankfully the word is again getting around that the Feldmans are nuts.

Seems to me that nothing has changed at the Yeshiva Centre in all these years. And
How about the American teacher who molested kids in his own home, slept in a bed with a few of them, and he was packed off to the US, and the parents of the children were told to be quiet....

You see Yossi there's a lot of us who remember all this stuff. You can put any spin you like on it..... but notwithstanding your poor grammar and strange phrasing, the truth should shine through. Unfortunately, from you, it does not.

Shmarya, on the other hand, is someone we all believe in, and we read his blog often because he is truthful, if nothing else.

Yossi Feldman, I once again wish you a refuah shleimah. And if you had any sense, you would step down and let someone with a brain and some sense be the ""President"" of the Rabbinical Council. What a joke on Sydney it really is.

[Aussie]

Please don't forget the incident approximately 20 years ago when you prevented an abused woman from calling the police.

20 years ago(early 1990's) would have been his father and not him??.....
I know for sure in the late 80's Yossi was not in Sydney....Was he back by early 90's??....

[Joe in Australia]

Yossi Feldman is around 42.

[Tam]

Shmarya's clarity on this subject is a knockout punch.

Whenever we hear or read, though, a convoluted opinion on this subject, we should immediately ask ourselves, "who exactly is this person(s)covering up for"?

v'hamaivin yovin

[Jemima Puddleduck]

Quoting; 20 years ago(early 1990's) would have been his father and not him??.....
I know for sure in the late 80's Yossi was not in Sydney....Was he back by early 90's??....

He was definitely around in 95/96.

[ultra haredi lite]

Jemima Puddleduck,
Love your name.

[No Light]

Tam - you are spot on. There are only two reasons someone would fight an appeal to report every accusation of abuse. The first is that they're covering for an abuser, the second is that they have abused children themselves.

They think that by orchestrating smear campaigns, against people who try and expose what's going on, that the drive to uncover abuse will stop, that their dirty secrets will be safe. It won't stop, and hopefully one day every sick pervert who has forced themself on someone else will be brought to justice.

Until then we need people like Shmarya, like Rosenberg, to bring it into the open.

[Barry]

You will find notices on a subway train telling passengers to report unaccompanied luggage to the station staff, who will close the station, report to the police who will contact the bomb squad who will send a team to examine the luggage. You may wonder why anyone bothers to go through to this trouble? After all experience tells us that in 99.9% of such incidences, the luggage is harmless and has been left by some careless tourist.

The police are duty bound and society expects them to investigate every allegation of serious crime, notwithstanding that AT THE TIME the allegation is reported to them, the victim cannot provide evidence to support a case against the alleged perpetrator. It is the job of the police and the POLICE ALONE to gather evidence sufficient to decide if anyone has a case to answer. They must investigate notwithstanding that they know that in the Rov number of those cases, investigations will lead nowhere if there is some chance that the investigation will succeed.

Take for example, someone who comes to the police complaining of having being burglarized. The desk sergeant knows from experience that in 20% of cases, the burglar will leave a fingerprint sufficient to identify him. Does this mean that as in rov number of cases no fingerprint will be found, the desk sergeant can refuse to send out a fingerprint expert?

Any allegation, however improbable must be investigated. It is only if it is impossible that it need not be investigated.

If a man who has made 3 enemies, is found dead, then the police are perfectly entitled to question and even arrest (as a means of applying pressure) all three, notwithstanding that they are confident that only one of those 3 is the murderer and the other two are innocent. Once the murderer is identified, the innocent two will no doubt complain that they had a hell of a time whilst under suspicion. The police will readily admit that this is true however they will correctly argue that they needed to balance making two innocent people suffer a little against not being able to convict a possible murderer.

So if an 8 year old child alleges he has been molested by an adult he knows, then this must be investigated because such molestation however unlikely is a possibility.

Only the police with the assistance of experts have the tools to properly carry out an investigation to see if any evidence can be found to take the matter further. The police cannot outsource this investigation. Neither can they allow any non expert (such as some cleric or even the victim) to have any input whatsoever on if they choose to proceed or what their tactics should be.

The police are well aware that false accusations are often made or that their investigations will not yield sufficient evidence to advance a prosecution let alone a conviction.

It is extremely unpleasant to be accused of a crime when you are innocent, especially a sex crime against children. However such unpleasantness cannot be avoided if you are to properly investigate allegations. The police will readily admit that an innocent man was put through a particular horrible experience, however that was unavoidable if they were to discover if a child was molested. An man can expect not to be convicted by a court of law without evidence, he cannot however expect not to be investigated by police until such evidence has been amassed

The 'Raglayim le Davaar' put forward by the rabbis is disingenuous because even if rabbis could define what standard of proof was needed, they do not have the tools to investigate whether the criteria has been made and the Rabbis know that they do not have these tools so the criteria will never be met.

The Hareidim have a terrible fear of having the way they raise children and educate them scrutinised and subject to 'outside control' and they see their inability to control child abuse as giving outsiders an opportunity to gain a foothold in how they educate their children. Only recently Rabbi Eliyasiv mentioned that whilst he did not approve of Ashkenazi schools discriminating against Sephardi schools, he regarded State interference in education as a bigger threat. An American talmid of Rabbi Eliyashiv on a US website blogged that according to halacha, it would be better for children to be killed at the hands of Nazis then have outside elements supervise their education! In the 19th century, when the only hospitals in Jerusalem were Christian, Rabbi Sonnenfeld arranged for Jewish patients going to those hospitals to be physically attacked so as to intimidate the sick from seeking medical advice because he feared the possibility however remote of them falling under Christian influence as a greater danger then succumbing to illness. The Eda was not at all bothered by the fact that this resulted in appalling child mortality (about 80%) amongst Jews.

Hareidim are no different today. If the price for keeping children's education exclusively in their hands means that they must rubbish any abuse allegation even if this means child molesters will have a free reign, then for them, his price is well worth paying.

[Benjamin Uchytil]

Excellent, lucid arguments on your part, Shmarya. This exchange was well-worth your efforts! Thank you for your continued vigilence and advocacy on behalf of victims of childhood sexual abuse.

[abc]

Cyprys arrested in Melbourne

[abc]

http://www.smh.com.au/victoria/arrest-over-jewish-school-sex-assaults-20110906-1jv24.html

[Jemima Puddleduck]

I wonder about all this talk from Feldman regarding "protecting family members".
Are we missing something here folks?
He seems to be obsessed with the family connections. Does this whole subject hit a rav nerve with Feldman? is he programmed to cover up abuse? Was he himself abused and has he himself been brainwashed into believing it was a lie?
I'm just reading between the lines, that is all.... just thinking aloud.