« Author Of Anonymous Book On Haredi Child Sex Abuse Outs Herself | Main | Haredim Ban Bikes »

August 02, 2011

Video: Kiryas Joel Arrests

Kiryas Joel arrest Three non-Orthodox, perhaps non-Jewish, friends decide to walk through Kiryas Joel and take pictures of the hasidic village. They're stopped by Kiryas Joel's hasidic constable and asked for identification. When they refuse, State Police are called. Here's video of the incident.

 

 

 

[Hat Tip: 613 Enforcer.]

Update 8-4-11 – Still pictures posted on Flickr by one of the hikers in the videos.

Comments

Feed You can follow this conversation by subscribing to the comment feed for this post.

not sure

but can you get arrested for refusing the show id

i believe that the constazble from KJ should be arrested
i dont have to provide id when i take pictures in NYC why do these people have to provide id

They were in a public place. What they did was perfectly legal. I smell a big fat lawsuit here. You don't have to show ID to anyone in this country if you're just walking on public property, not even a real cop (although you do have to identify yourself to a real cop, which amounts to the same thing).

In fact, I'm gonna do the same thing. These Satmar swine can send the dog catcher after me.

So Moshe Leib Witriol, the rat on the right and Shimmy Furkush his tail decided to pick on non jews after they were harrasing the heimisha woman, looking up their skirts and checking pools for mixed swimming. its the 9 days so no swimming. Moshe leib got tired of traveling to Newark NJ every day to shack up with homeless prostitutes and drug users and paying child support, now he is all over KJ,if anybody needs to be chasited its his own wife Chumy, who was/is a Crowen Heights whore maiden name Crawford.

When do I have to show ID?

This is a tricky issue. As a general principle, citizens who are minding their own business are not obligated to "show their papers" to police. In fact, there is no law requiring citizens to carry identification of any kind.

Nonetheless, carrying an ID is required when you're driving or flying. Driving without a license is a crime, and no one is allowed to board an airplane without first presenting proper identification. These requirements have been upheld on the premise that individuals who prefer not to carry ID can choose not to drive or fly.

From here, ID laws only get more complicated. In Hiibel v. Sixth Judicial District Court of Nevada, the Supreme Court upheld state laws requiring citizens to disclose their identity to police when officers have reasonable suspicion to believe criminal activity may be taking place. Commonly known as "stop and identify" statutes, these laws permit police to arrest criminal suspects who refuse to identify themselves.

Currently the following states have stop and identify laws: AL, AR, CO, DE, FL, GA, IL, KS, LA, MO, MT, NE, NH, NM, NV, NY, ND, RI, UT, VT, WI

Regardless of your state's law, keep in mind that police can never compel you to identify yourself without reasonable suspicion to believe you're involved in criminal activity. Rather than asking the officer if he/she has reasonable suspicion, test it yourself by asking if you're free to go.

If the officer says you're free to go, leave immediately and refrain from answering any additional questions.

If the officer detains you, you'll have to decide whether withholding your identity is worth the possibility of arrest or a prolonged detention. In cases of mistaken identity, revealing who you are might help to resolve the situation quickly. On the other hand, if you're on parole in California, for example, revealing your identity could lead to a legal search. Knowing your state's laws can help you make the best choice.

Keep in mind that the officer's decision to detain you will not always hold up in court. "Reasonable suspicion" is a vague evidentiary standard which lends itself to mistakes on the officer's part, but it is also a relatively low threshold for causation and is sometimes sustained with minimal evidentiary support. If you are searched or arrested following an officer's ID request, it may be best to contact an attorney to discuss the incident in greater detail and explore your legal options.

i take pictures sometimes...sometimes i explain and i can continue..sometimes i know not to take pics...but they should be allowed to....public property in THE UNITED STATES OF AMERICA

Driving without a license isn't a crime, it's an offense.

In NY, you have to tell the cops your real name if asked. But you don't have to carry any papers, not in NY or anywhere else in the USA if you're just walking.

this is like communisim russia shame on aron tieitilabum and muser witriol!

@PeanutGallery,
Thank you for your completely incomprehensible commentary.

When I was a kid, there was a term for Jews called "Bronx Indians." These days there aren't many Jews living in the Bronx anymore, except Riverdale, and residents of that neighborhood, which included Carly Simon when she was growing up, don't consider themselves to be part of the Bronx anyway, so the term "Bronx Indian" is kind of obsolete.

If this idiot constabile asks me for ID, I'll reply, "In the USA one doesn't need to carry ID. Is Kiryas Joel part of the United States, or do different laws apply, as on an Indian reservation? Which tribe do you belong to, kimo sabe? And if this is the Satmar reservation, where's the casino?"

It's like a paranoid Mormon cult compound.

it seems both people where asses

the satmar for calling and the others for not giving ID

Once when I was walking my dog off leash in Central Park when it was -5 degrees undercover police came to give us tickets for off leash.

We argued and said there is not a soul in the park but to no avail. They gave us tickets and asked for ID one guy tries to do what these guys where doing and almost got arrested.

I think giving an ID is not to much to ask for?

another think if you think police might be called call first since you are then the complainant

You must be very old, Cy. The last time it was colder than -2 in NYC was in 1943, when it got down to -8.

Being that it was wartime, maybe the cops thought you were a Nazi spy or something.

Maybe they should put a gate around their community. Could serve as an erev too. Then they can call it a gated community and then demand to see an id to enter.

I am not a fan of satmer or KJ but these people clearly went there to make trouble and wanted to video tape this for what reason????

"I am not a fan of satmer or KJ but these people clearly went there to make trouble and wanted to video tape this for what reason????"

Posted by: chaim | August 02, 2011 at 01:38 PM

They need a reason?

Same reason thousands of people drive to Hershey, PA to take pictures of Amish people.

Posted by: PeanutGallery | August 02, 2011 at 12:34 PM

Oh wow, Chumy Crawford. You really take me back a few years. So now she's banging MLW? In those days Moshe Leib had to show his ID for services. Thanks for the memories.

fuck liberals.

Good thing they didn't end up in New Square, imagine what would have happened if they prayed outside the "Getto"

let these assholes go to a louis farrakhan rally and just decide to start taking pictures-they wouldnt do that because they would get ripped apart limb from fucking limb-let them walk into the chicano part of town and start taking pictures of gang members-they would never find their fucking bodies-but, to start bothering the jews???-well, thats holy for a fucking liberal-God do i hate liberals.

Cops are stupid

I'm not exactly sure what constitutes suspicious activity. If you are in a public domain you have nor expectation of privacy.
You may be photographed or video taped without your consent. Were they suspicious because they are not Hassidc? Maybe all non Jews or orthodox Jews are suspicious? Although I would not recommend refusing to show a Police Officer ID in NYS the law is sketchy.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Stop_and_identify_statutes

I agree w/ Chaim. If they had just shown the ID they couldve continued to take pictures. Post 9/11, you cant be too cautious. Maybe these nuts were canvassing the area for a future attack of some sort. I have no problem w/ the way this was handled other than the fact that the troopers shouldnt have been debating w/ these ppl. Shouldve hauled their asses in as soon as they refused to give ID.

These people were trouble makers.
Show your ID and its over.
I didnt see the Hasid do anything antagonistic.
Maybe the constable overeacted, but these bozos were obviously looking for trouble.
Yeah, they needed som kokosh and compote for lunch HAHA.

If Kiryas Joel were a gated community, it couldn't be a village under NY law, or any states' laws. That means it wouldn't be milking the taxpayers the way it does now.

By all means, make Kiryas Joel a gated community. In fact, allow it to secede from the USA entirely. I won't miss it.

BTW, if you want to take pictures of the Amish, Hershey Pa. isn't the place to go. Try Lancaster.

Seeing as the Amish were mentioned, I did a search. Amazing how one must be respectuful of their religious beliefs and sensitivities compared to how Jews are spoken of here:

> "Dear webshots friends!! The quality in some of these photos isn't all that great..i had to take these pics from a distance, as the Amish don't like their picture taken...hope you enjoy anyway!!"

http://travel.webshots.com/album/182033232UGQaot

> "No photos or videos, please ... photograph their homes, farms, and buggies if you ask respectfully"

http://pittsburgh.about.com/cs/pennsylvania/a/amish_country.htm

When a REAL cop (not the flaccid haredi fat ass) asks for ID don't be an asshole. These punks are idiots.

The photographers were curious about Curious Joel.

Shmarya,
just wanted to extend kudos on the excellent video and the outing of pedos who would otherwise escape with their sins unexposed. your work, along with Asher Lipner, Mike Lesher (column sunday in ny post), etc have forced many in the religious establishment who warp Torah to support their predilictions and sick practices, to run scared... yasher koach.

rosenberg probably sent these bastards in so that he could get a scoop in his endless quest to try to become recognized as a real journalist.

I just viewed the first video.

Anyone notice an accent when the woman spoke? In anycase, someone mentioned the phrase "public safety officer"? Do such officers carry ID? I mean, how does anyone know a person who claims to be a public safety officer really is?

tooclose2stormfront writes:
fuck liberals

Sorry, Grand Dragon. Most of us have standards.

Jewland

I came across this. I do not see so-called "Jewland" involved in this, yet the *police* (a group yet) do not feel safe against one lone female, why would an unarmed Jew feel safe against a gang of three?

http://www.techdirt.com/articles/20110623/02573314823/woman-charged-with-obstructing-governmental-administration-filming-police-her-front-yard.shtml

could be a scam for a lawsuit..
they should have showed the police their ids...
the cops were being pretty nice...
kj was wrong to call the cops...
did that woman have a polish accent???

Isn't anyone here the least bit suspicious of this trio? Assuming they had no criminal intent, isn't it still valid to wonder why they just happened to wander into Kiryas Yoel? Shouldn't an alert community member and how much more so one charged with public safety keep tabs on who is visiting and why? One of them claimed he was from Michigan. Imagine that. To film the Amish he needn't have trekked out to Lancaster County, PA. No,he needed only to execute a hop, a skip and a jump to Ohio. Chassidim are even closer - Oak Park, MI. Sheesh, this guy's got way too much energy, time and money or maybe he's got something else in mind. What do you think? Judging from the rancorous comments frequently made on this website alone, it might even be advisable for them (Kiryas Yoel) to arm themselves.

that's a heavy arab/muslim population...michigan, no?
just asking..

i believe they were jewish russians

It's very obvious the woman is Jewish. What this fat pig of a Hasid objected to was that there were two guys and a woman, not walking on different sides of the street, and acting in a very un-Satmar-like manner.

This also appears to be a test case. Otherwise, they would certainly have given ID to the state trooper, if not to this so-called "peace officer."

Sorry, Grand Dragon. Most of us have standards.

Posted by: A. Nuran

Yes-but your standards are double standards-so, for example, after Giffords gets shot, Obama can go out and tell everyone that they must be more civil in speech to each other (like the nut that shot her was a conservative), and then Joe Biden can call the Tea Party members "terrorists"-and the media says nuttin-of course-because he be a libb, and libbs must be protected- And zillions more examples, if you would like, of your "standards".

as far as these clowns bein terrorists-highly doubt that-terrorists arent so stupid that they would "stand out" so much-I think they were just some leftists tryin to hassle some jews and make some news, similar to the assholes that try to "run the gaza blockade", or the "grannies for gaza" that say jackshit about the thousands of political prisoners and total lack of political freedom in Cuba, the thousands murdered in Syria, etc etc-nah, "lets go out and make trouble with the jews, and when they try to find out whats going on, or try to protect themselves, we will youtube it and cry foul!"-fuckers.

They are happy enough to take strangers tax dollars.... Close this ghetto now

Time to disband the tyrannical Hassidic fiefdoms in upstate New York.

Andrew Cuomo helps them. He has to be held accountable.

Alex, I agree with you.
Why are these people taking pictures there? This is post 9/11. Are they casing the area for a future crime? There is lots of anti-Jewish sentiment. Chasidim are easily identifiable Jews.
If I were a cop, I'd be suspicious of them because of their behavior, accents, and refusal to show ID. I believe that non-citizens have to carry and show ID when asked by cops or public safety officials.

It's very obvious the woman is Jewish.

Morris the Katz

umm-very obvious-umm-hmmm-very obvious----OK-I give up-what the hell made it so obvious?

Everyone just think for one second about the following scenario:

You're sitting on the grass in the front of your house. Five Arabs stop in front of your house and begin filming you and your kids and your house. They also start laughing and pointing at you. They converse in Arabic, and you think you hear something about Allah Akbar.

Then they move on. They're still looking at you and laughing at you.

Remember, this is America, not Israel, and there is nothing you can do about it. They have every right to film you. Nobody can ask them for ID, since no crime was committed. And so you will not be abe to find out who they are.

You will be left hugging your kids every night for the rest of your life wondering.... and having nightmares.

America!!

Just because they are Satmar, it doesn't mean they are wrong. A stopped watch is right twice a day.

Why are white people sometimes stopped by cops in black areas?

Zalman sent them ....ha ha

The only way the KJ Constable could stop those kids was if he was arresting them for an offense (Violation)committed 1. in his presence or 2. if he had Probable cause that a crime was committed(Misd. or Felony) which he did not articulate either. Only the real Police can stop and investigate, not a peace officer. NYS CPL 140.50 Sub 1. Notice the NYSP did not really arrest anyone they Bs'd the kids into giving their ID. They thought they were going... As for The Charge of Obstructing Gov't Administration, the mere refusal of showing ID when a Non-crime (photography) is being investigated is not enough to arrest anyone. NYS Penal Law 195.05 There was no intimidation, physical force or interference. I know this stuff intimately. This was merely intimidation by the constable... and some kids sticking up for their rights. I wish they had done it to me. I'd be looking at a nice settlement.

The only way the KJ Constable could stop those kids was if he was arresting them for an offense
detective

theyre not "kids"-they are probably in their early 20's-stop trying to engender empathy for these obvious troublemakers by calling them "kids"they were probably sent there by Rosenberg, or some other leftist blog, just to try to stir up some trouble-Glad you're retired.

Det (ret): I watched this video carefully -- twice. It's obvious to me that these kids went to KJ -- two young men and one young woman, probably all three are Jewish -- to see what would happen if young, secular-appearing people walked around in their town.

Maybe some stings need to be arranged, with better video coverage, to see if something is wrong up there.

I would love to see what the comments would be like had a few Chassidim been asked by very polite police officers for ID and refused.

You know very well these guys could have just walked away after showing ID to the first officer.

I don't blame them for thinking the "Peace Officer" in Chassidic garb was a joke but when a police officer asks you as nice as he can for ID and tells you he is not looking to arrest anybody - don't be a jerk and make him arrest you.

I'm not saying these guys were looking for trouble but I love all these altercations with police when the guy always has a camera ready and loves to "defend his rights".

It's called being a jerk for no reason.

What ever reason they went there for as long as they were not committing any offense or crime the KJ constable had no legal authority to do what amounted to a stop and question. His Peace Officer Status only gives him the power of arrest, not to Stop and Question. At no time did you hear any articulatable "legal" reason that the stop was made. The law is very specific. The Trooper even gave them a good reason for a law suit when he said that the Constable stopped them because they were suspicious ie. taking pictures. As for calling them kids... it doesn't really matter what I call them. The law is the law and even the case law is on their side. I provided the sections in my previous post it's here for everyone to read. If these individuals were there to harass the Hasidim it would have been a different story, but their behavior was not at all illegal. In fact watching the video they were pretty respectful to all involved while standing up for their civil liberties. This is still The United States of America. If they had pushed the issue they would have ultimately won albeit still having to be arrested at the onset.

I think giving an ID is not to much to ask for?

another think if you think police might be called call first since you are then the complainant

Posted by: seymour | August 02, 2011 at 01:00 PM

The only reason they were not arrested was because they were white and well-spoken. Had they been black or other perceived undesirables they would be snatched from the street in a New York minute.

I perceived the cops were a bit scared, wondering if the daddy of the kid might be an influential muckety-muck.

And yes giving ID for doing nothing but breathing the air and minding your own business is too much to ask. It is not too much to ask if you were in China or Pakistan but it is too much to ask for the United States.

Yes, that woman had a Polish or Turkish accent. My gut is they were telling the truth and just looking for a place to eat and didn't know the area. They may have been reluctant to show ID because they didn't have green cards, but they didn't look suspicious to me. Ironic how the safety officers would find these three suspicious, yet child molestors living there are honored.

Yes, that woman had a Polish or Turkish accent DEVORAH

=========

If having an accent is enough to make you suspicious then most of the Satmars would be pretty suspicious, with Yiddish accents (though American born). Also the garb, strange gait, and dress of the 17th century Polish nobility would make them perhaps more than a wee bit suspicious-- not to mention laying tefillin in public places

Retired detective is correct in his comments. Thank you.

The chasidic "constable" seems to think that if you don't look like them, they can stop you for identification. Wrong!

The State trooper obviously wanted to try and appease the local moron up to the point of actually putting himself at risk for a false arrest charge. Obsutruction of Governmental Administration is known by attorneys here in New York by another name, "Contempt of Cop."

As for the chasidic "constable," he needs to go back to his grandparents or great parents and say, "tell me about the Gestapo."

What a chilul Hashem. You will never see this posted on VIN or YWN

Just a passing thought roughly 70 years ago peoples freedoms were trounced upon and evil prevailed. We must not forget what it means to have these freedoms whether you are from the secular or insular world in the US they are granted to everyone with no question. I am sure that the KJ Constable had good intentions, however he stepped over the line, as does LE in other jurisdictions as well. I am just trying to clarify without sarcasm and bias for those who don't understand the law regarding this incident. And BTW I am a card carrying Shomrim member. Not the one in Bklyn.

Zalman sent them ....ha ha

Posted by: Ld | August 02, 2011 at 05:01 PM
Detective (ret)

maybe look at the article posted on FM

If I, a regular citizen, saw people who i didn't recognize, and who didn't seem to have a reason to be around my street, ( i don't live in a charadi neighborhood). The cops would come out and identify them... I would not have to give a reason of why i thought they looked suspicious.... If i assaulted the suspects, they can file a complaint.. But the cops have every reason to ask for I.D, and the suspects should comply...
Just show your Damn id!
And if you think about this case, why were non-religious people in KJ? They have EVERY right to be there. they are a bit suspicious....

Detective (ret)-

you are 100 % correct in all posts. thanks!!

: tooclose2detroit -

your knee-jerk hatred of anyone who doesnt dress like a republican fascist is obvious.
how can you or anyone defend the actions of the "peace officer" or the police?
these people were breaking no laws and had every right to walk around and even take pictures. the chussid had no right to put a hand on him or to ask them for ID. IT IS NOT HIS TOWN. and shame on the police for backing him up.
in america we have a right not to be stopped or searched without cause.
i've been to many cities and towns and have never had to produce ID for the act of walking around and taking pictures. and the laws which forbid it are not just convenient, but necessary for the protection of our overall freedom.
imagine if everywhere you went some guy with the title of peace officer could stop you randomly at his discretion and demand ID. that is not freedom.

how do you know who's a cop? i've seen a couple of cases, at least, here of rabbis driving vehicles with state plates and police light kits installed.

I wonder what would have happened if this would have occurred in a predominantly Muslim community.

In order to conduct a Terry Stop (i.e. an investigative inquiry NOT an arrest) the government agent (i.e. the PIG) has to have reasonable suspicion. Taking pictures in a public street is probably not enough, unless a reasonable person would be able to point to articulable facts that would lead one to believe that crime may be afoot (i.e. taking pictures of a given store, as if though scouting out the place to later rob it). If the Satmar guy is an agent of the police and he grabbed the guy, that would be a be a fourth amendment seizure and possibly battery not assault. To seize someone you need probable cause. Given that probable cause is a higher standard than reasonable suspicion, I doubt the Satmar guy had probable cause when he seized (grabbed) the guy. Accordingly, the video may depict a violation of those guys' 4th Amendment rights, but then again, we don't know what these guys actually did prior to the video.

alex-

Assuming they had no criminal intent, isn't it still valid to wonder why they just happened to wander into Kiryas Yoel?

absolutely. its also valid to wonder what your next door neighbor earns. that doesnt give you the right to violate his constitutional rights in order to find out.

Shouldn't an alert community member and how much more so one charged with public safety keep tabs on who is visiting and why?

if he wants to he can keep an eye on them, he can. but grabbing him and demanding to be shown ID? no.

These guys should hire a civil rights attorney. They have a great Section 1983 case on liability although the amount of damages will not be significant. Under NYPL 140.50(1) police can ask for ID when the police officer has reason to suspect the person committed a crime. A link to the statute is below. There is zero evidence that the police had any evidence that a crime was going to be committed. The sole reason the police provides for them being suspicious is that they are taking pictures. That is not a basis for conclude a crime might be committed.

The reason the “peace officer” was suspicious is because they are not chassidish. To deem behavior suspicious when it is done by non-Chassidim but not be Chassidim is a violation of the fourteenth amendment equal protection provision.

http://law.onecle.com/new-york/criminal-procedure/CPL0140.50_140.50.html

your knee-jerk hatred of anyone who doesnt dress like a republican fascist is obvious.
APC

BTW-how do you "dress" like a Republican fascist?-is the tie tied with the right hand?-what does that even mean?-youve done better.
these pukes were obviously out to cause trouble-let them walk around Harlem, and just walk up to people and start snapping pictures of people-they will be robbed, raped, and beaten-O-that would be even without taking pictures.-twoud be just nuther night in liberal manufactured gehenom.

what does that even mean?-youve done better.

i dont really know but i typed it anyway. yes, a bit lame...

who cares what they were photographing?
and if there are many other places where you wouldnt feel safe that means KJ can invoke the "but they do it too" defense?

no, but it means that libbs have no problem protesting or trying to start trouble with the jews, or israel, or any country that is aligned with america, but totally ignore the same or worse problems in countries or parts of society that appeal to them-i remember when the left used to march against the opression in el salvador and south africa, but had absolutely no problem with Castro, whom they adored-just more damned libbocrisy.-why would they bdavka go to KJ to start something-they were dying to get pics of chasidim??-they wanted womething to eat, and they were just on a walk?-nahh-they were trying to make some point that they never would have dreamed try to make in dearborn, harlem, etc etc-pickin on the jews is holy, pickin on the frum is holy of holies.

Funny. If it had been a bunch of chassidim walking in some non-hasidic village and they refused to provide ID for State Police, every comment here would be criticizing them.

But when it's non-chassidim in the chassidic village, half the comments criticize the village.

And the cops were not even Jewish or working for the village. It was the state police.

When the State Police asks for ID you cooperate no matter what your private feelings are.

Stupid Russians. Those cops should have arrested them. Although if it was in a Chabad neighborhood the constable would first try to find out if Roman Shtilman's mother was Jewish and only then grab his arm and put tefillin on it.

I admire the cops for controlling themselves and not wiping off the smug look on Roman's face.

Retired detective above writes "The chasidic "constable" seems to think that if you don't look like them, they can stop you for identification. Wrong!"

You can guess all you want about what the constable was thinking. But it's nothing more than a guess.

It's pretty obvious that these three were stopped for not being Hasidic.

That's called "profiling" and it's totally illegal.

to Ronaldo, I never said that they could be stopped for "not looking like them". Site your source. On the contrary, I said the stop was wrong from the very outset and in direct violation of the CPL statute.

I'm not from NY, so don't know the statutes of that state, but...I am from an area that sees this sort of problem on a regular basis. Much of the problem arises from police (and or "security guards") not being very well trained and/or retrained in rules and constitutional rights.

Here, in the DC area, we have something like 17 separate police forces operating in the District itself. It is not at all unusual to have someone's camera removed from their possession. Inevitably, it hits the paper, the cop is reprimanded and his/her superior promises a new and more effective training program. And, let's remember that we're dealing with a much more serious level of security here, than they do in a small 18th century Polish village.

Detective (ret)

Your reference to "NYS CPL 140.50 Sub 1" talks about a "peace officer" belonging to a court house ("court officer"). This case here looke like a different type of jurisdiction to me.

Aside from that, "peace officer" seems really generic, as I did a google search and it gives me a bunch of "sub-categories" under that title. So while I do not understand these distinctions, it seems clear that we do not know what specific category the "peace officer" in question belongs to and so we do not know what powers he actually has.

A Peace Officer In NYS has defined powers see CPL § 2.20 Powers of peace officers. Go Here and drill down http://public.leginfo.state.ny.us/LAWSSEAF.cgi?QUERYTYPE=LAWS+&QUERYDATA=@LLCPL+&LIST=LAW+&BROWSER=BROWSER+&TOKEN=14951874+&TARGET=VIEW IN NYS a Police Officer has more powers than a Peace Officer. Wikipedia just glosses over the subject, If you look at § 2.10 Persons designated as peace officers. This is the meat and Potatoes of who has Peace Officer status. As for Police Officer Status this is in the section § 1.20 Definitions specifically Sub 34. It's a lot of reading but it should bring it all into perspective. I entertain questions from all.

I would like to know the proof that these people are liberals. I would hope *anyone* regardless of political leanings would stand up for their civil liberties. They are so dumb. The technique is 1. Not argue with police-anything you say can be used against you, and 2. Ask for your lawyer. Never NEVER talk to the fuzz

Hey George as far as your question about 140.50 Sub 1. It's Sub 2 that deals with Peace Officers working in courts in NYS providing Courtroom Security, not sub 1. The legislature gave them the power to "Stop & question and Maybe frisk" The same power of a Police Officer, but only in and around a Courtroom/house. Mind you that this is done at a lower level of suspicion "reasonably suspects" as opposed to an arrest situation "Reasonable cause to believe/Probable cause". This was done basically to cover the smaller municipal courts ie. Town and Village where there are no Court officers assigned. A few years back there was surge of courtroom violence. A lot of Retired PO's take these part time jobs. But George you are on the money with your observation. A Constable/Peace Officer not acting as a Court Officer in and around a court/room does not have the power to "stop, question and maybe frisk" I hope this explains it a bit better.

Further to what we do not know.

We do not know the exact location where they were stopped. Was it "really" public property? If they were looking for a place to eat (as they allege), it seems they would have stepped into buildings, or at least onto the porch of buildings, which could very well be private property. And it seems they were taking "pictures" (probably video), and could very well have been doing so from such private property. And maybe someone even mentioned concern about the matter to the village "peace officer".

And then, maybe, the village "peace officer" confronted them (on private property or about their activity on private property) and they refused to acknowledge him (or responded disparagingly) and walked away (or started to walk away), at which point he may have grabbed the arm of one of them.

So much for the way this may, or may not, have happened.

Did this stop the italic bold?

Now the question of the video itself is more complex than it sounds.

While it may be legal (in the United States) from public property to video individuals who are on public property, it becomes quite questionable if "eavesdroping" may be involved (and apparently their quipment could record sound as well). For example, "Illegal electronic surveillance":

http://www.boston.com/news/local/massachusetts/articles/2010/01/12/police_fight_cellphone_recordings/

Considering how absurdly other such-like laws have been enforced by the courts, anyone making a video (with sound) of two or more people interacting could be guilty of this most serious crime (if neither one gave permission beforehand).

Further in terms of taking a video of the place, that is in itself scary on its own terms.

The community itself is "nearly" 100% Jewish and of no interest to the general outside world. There is no "tourist attraction" here. Whether you admit it or not, the fact is that Jews are prime targets of terrorists. How these posts ignore Mumbai 2008 (and the disproportionate attention the terrorists displayed towards the tiny number of Jews) is beyond me. It is known that American citizens aided in preparing that attack (look up "David Headley" for example).

And the terrorist organizations are known to be adapting by using innocent-looking people to do their spy work.

Detective (ret)

All I can say is what I said before. We do not know the exact details of what category the village "peace officer" belongs to, so we do not know what powers he was granted. For example, your reference CPL § 2.20 at (i) states:

> Any other power which a particular peace officer is otherwise
authorized to exercise by any general, special or local law or charter
whenever acting pursuant to his special duties, provided such power is
not inconsistent with the provisions of the penal law or this chapter.

George in regarrds to your comments, Private property: The KJ Constable could have an arrest/summons situation. Trespass et al. See the NYS Penal law. We then would not even be talking about this as the confrontation would have been justified. But this was not brought up at all as per the video, even the trooper says the reason is the photographing, "not a offense" in NYS. If there had been a trespass then the issue of photographing would clearly not have been the presenting problem that the Trooper was dealing with. If he confronted them for any reason and didn't arrest them, they owe him no explanation of there actions. If a citizen mentioned a concern to him this still does not change anything as a Peace Officer "the Constable" does not have the power to detain persons unless he is arresting/ issuing a summons. Which he was not.
As for the legality of the video and audio combination totaly legal See Penal law § 250.00 Eavesdropping; definitions of terms. NYS is what we call a one party state. If one person is a party to the communication and they consent then it's ok. In other words you can tape, video etc your own conversations and you don't have to let the other party know and there is nothing illegal about it.
What you say about KJ being an Insular community and a target is 100% correct,however it does not usurp the Law. The constable was wrong and so were the NYSP.

George BTW Massachusetts is a two party state hence the violation. Peace Officer is Peace Officer he has that status because he is a Constable this is cut and dried. This grants him the powers afforded him via. the CPL. you have the sections. And you are right again to point out § 2.20 at (i) states:

Any other power which a particular peace officer is otherwise
authorized to exercise by any general, special or local law or charter
whenever acting pursuant to his special duties, provided such power is not inconsistent with the provisions of the penal law or this chapter. Because this is a good point you hit the nail on the head.
The actions of the Constable are inconsistent with § 140.50 Temporary questioning of persons in public places.... He can't because the law does not grant him the legal authority to do so.And if the Village enacted a local law it would be null and void because it runs counter to the NYS law. Again he can arrest/summons but not anything else. You have answered your own question BTW what's up with this italic stuff? It won't stop.

Detective (ret)

Nice job. By the way, the state trooper needs a little tutoring in the law so he can understand the difference between a true "investigative stop" and a "pretext stop."

I have a citation for the Kiryas Joel Gest, uh I am mean constable:

42 U.S.C. 1983

(P.S. I have not coded anything here to italicize.)

George: KJ may not be a tourist attraction to you, but it might be to someone else.

Whether it's a tourist attraction, a frigging eyesore, a disgrace to Judaism, or all three, it makes no difference. It's public property, and these three people didn't violate any laws, and this miserable corpulent stupid swine of a hasidic "constable" had no right to demand ID.

First of all, there's no requirement anywhere in this country that someone walking even carry ID, just that he identifies himself to a COP using his or her right name.

To the corpulent constable, not having payis and beard, or not wearing a burkha or something close to it on a 90-degree day, might make someone look "suspicious." Well, that's too damned bad. The U.S. Constitution and NY State law doesn't end at the boundaries of Kiryas Joel, or for that matter, in Williamsburg, Boro Park, or Monsey.

Got any proof the KJ Three were terrorists, except in your demented mind, George?

New York is a socialist zionist state

Driving without a license isn't a crime, it's an offense.

In NY, you have to tell the cops your real name if asked. But you don't have to carry any papers, not in NY or anywhere else in the USA if you're just walking.

Posted by: Morris the Katz | August 02, 2011 at 12:44 PM

Driving without a license on your person is not an offence in every state. I was pulled over for speeding in WI w/o my license. I received a ticket for speeding and a request to present proof of a drivers license to the police station within 15 days. And that was only because the officer spelled my name wrong, otherwise he would have accessed it by his computer - well, it was up to his discression in any case - but he would not have issued the request.

On a different occassion I was pulled over for something in NJ. No citation. The cop asked for my license. I don't remember if I had it on me or not, but I got the sense from the officer that I was obligated to present it. So I asked him and he told me that in NJ, at least, law requires one to have his license on his person when driving. Different states, different laws.

In the good old days I flew all over the US without ID - sometimes on tickets not in my own name. Any company can choose to require proof of identification for a service registered to a certain name, but that doesn't make it state law.

But being on foot without ID in the US ... that just seems like a basic right. Once that goes it's a slippery slope before fingerprint identification and then a biometric chip implanted in the individual. Why not just tatoo the serial number right on my arm. I live in Israel and I know this is coming, but this is not the democracy I grew up in (if you can even call it a democracy).

In NJ, if you leave your license in your other pants, and present it to the judge (or prosecutor), the charge of driving without a license will be dismissed. You may, and probably will, be fined for not having your license on your person. No points; a revenue-producing fine. I think it's $150. Same with no registration or insurance card.

In NY their are two ways to write the summons. Either unlicensed(you can beat this) OR Failure to Carry (pretty much unbeatable, unless the judge is a softy.)

Most Jewish Americans consider these men a disgrace to us. It's easy to see how they ply their game; in a society where the media focuses on Black crime, the Hassids buy into the "model minority" image to get what they want.

Also, the county is run by non-Jews who have few dealings with Jews, so they won't be put off by their religious beliefs. If the Mayor says "we consider strangers a danger to our women" then the county will let them enforce the laws themselves, and as they please.

But if these men were ever brought to court, they'd better pray they get a Gentile judge. If the judge is a Jew (especially a non-religious one) he'll think these guys are an embarassment.

Verify your Comment

Previewing your Comment

This is only a preview. Your comment has not yet been posted.

Working...
Your comment could not be posted. Error type:
Your comment has been posted. Post another comment

The letters and numbers you entered did not match the image. Please try again.

As a final step before posting your comment, enter the letters and numbers you see in the image below. This prevents automated programs from posting comments.

Having trouble reading this image? View an alternate.

Working...

Post a comment

----------------------

FailedMessiah.com is a reader supported website.

Thank you for your generous support!

----------------------

----------------------

----------------------

Please Scroll Down Toward The Bottom Of This Page For More Search Options, For A List Of Recent Posts, And For Comments Rules

----------------------

Recent Posts

----------------------

Tip Jar

Gelt Is Good!

Tip Jar

FailedMessiah.com is a reader supported website. Please click the Donate button now to contribute.

Thank you for your generous support!

Tip Jar

Gelt Is Good!

Tip Jar

-------------------------

Comment Rules

  • 1. No anonymous comments.

    2. Use only one name or alias and stick with that.

    3. Do not use anyone else's name or alias.

    4. Do not sockpuppet.

    5. Try to argue using facts and logic.

    6. Do not lie.

    7. No name-calling, please.

    8. Do not post entire articles or long article excerpts.

    ***Violation of these rules may lead to the violator's comments being edited or his future comments being banned.***

Older Posts Complete Archives

Search FailedMessiah

----------------------

FailedMessiah.com is a reader supported website.

Thank you for your generous support!

----------------------

----------------------

----------------------

FailedMessiah.com in the Media

RSS Feed

Blog Widget by LinkWithin