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August 17, 2011

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Chicago Sam

These rabbis probably think the earth is also flat, since the Tanakh often speaks about the "four corners of the earth."

Jayman

Just because there are other versions of the torah from different sects who were not careful in their transmission of the tanach, does not prove that the pharisees did not have an authoritative torah scroll that they kept safe from corruption throughout the ages. There is a well written essay about this here;

http://www.aishdas.org/toratemet/en_text.html

David

Up until 3-10 centuries ago Judaism was a different religion to what it is now.
E.g.:

o mazoh wasn't the hard cracker it is now.
o clothing wasn't distinct from others unless dress code was imposed by governments.
o chickens did not have to be shected.
o the wine of gentiles was OK.
o polygamy was permitted.
o there was never a tradition (apart from for selected and respected scholars who would sit an do full time Torah learning and be supported by the commiunity) of large numbers of Jews such as Charedim of not working or being prepared to fight in the military.

RE:search

@david What? chickens needed to be shechted since the gemmora. yayin nesech too

RE:search

@david

oh, and they didnt use internet or electricity...

chussid

How can you post such menuvaldike kefirah on your site? You say lubavitchers are bad for believing the rebbe is moshiach while you are kofer in kol hatorah kulu!

ruthie

o the wine of gentiles was OK
YAY!

seymour

Posted by: chussid | August 17, 2011 at 06:31 PM

finally figured that out that the whole thing is built on a myth

chussid

is not a worse myth from evolution or other kefirah like this drek!

seymour

Posted by: chussid | August 17, 2011 at 06:31 PM

well it is the truth, want to live your live based on falsehood go ahead

imagine if it did not say 3 times do not cook the calf with the milk of its mother
and it only said it twice i wonder what would happen


Office of the Chief Rabbi

Slow news day, Shmarya?

You didn't reprint today's NY Times story on Aron. Wake up and get to work!

jancsipista

but we did have metzitza b:l peh lets not forget that.

Adam Neira

The Tanach is part : Genealogy; Drama; Lawmaking and Interpretation; Jurisprudence; Romance; War Battles; Power Dynamics; Place Naming; Object Referencing; Chronology; Prophecy; Allegory; Metaphor ; VIP’s; Filler and Wise Counsel. Weighing up the relevance of the different pieces should be left to very wise souls. The shore of history is littered with the ugly flotsam and jetsam resulting from the terrible decisions made by various people who thought they understood the true meaning of the good book. The Tanach is the most important book in the world. The 79,976 words of the Pentateuch assume primacy.

The various parts of the Tanach were written by humans. They did not magically appear on a slab or a scroll of papyrus. Such a fact does not negate the supernatural aspect of revelation as outlined by the sixth article of faith.

Dr. Dave

Has anyone told Artscroll about this?

I bet they put out a 5 volume commentary of each redacted book with voluminous pages of chareidi commentary about why the new version is wrong for $50.00 a volume.

jancsipista

adam- keep on repaeting the same lies over and over and over and you know the rest it becomes fact thats youre perception of the world.

Pagan

The Leningrad Codex states that the number of letters in the Torah is 400,945. That is about 100,000 more than you will count today. So somewhere along the line, 25% of the Torah has disappeared.

Unless you suppose the author of a definitive edition of the Tanakh simply couldn't count, in which case why consider it definitive?

Adam Neira

To Dr.Dave,

Artscroll should not feel threatened by this "new media". The publishing house puts out some great quality books. Alternative sources of information should be considered especially when new truths are revealed. Perhaps some people in positions of power are petrified right now because their carefully crafted edifices are in danger of collapsing around them. This is the threat that these researchers at Hebrew University pose. The film "Name of the Rose" comes to mind. I will bet my left leg that the findings from these scholars do not conflict with my worldview and understanding of the Tanach even one percent.

People should study the Tanach from an early age, but especially the Pentateuch, i.e. Five tools in ancient Greek. This should be in conjunction with : History; Geography; Science; Mathematics; Art; Literature, Economics and Politics. The physical side of education should also not be ignored. Some sport is good. The international language of English should be studied as well as the national language. Travel in the late teens, early twenties is also a good way for young people to broaden their horizons. Obviously a good education is predicated on a certain level of the general welfare in a nation.

The problem when people drift straight to the Talmud or other commentaries is that they fail to think autonomously and reason through issues. If there was total freedom of enquiry on the Planet most people would reach the same conclusions about the human condition and the true potential of humankind. The word "educere" comes from the Latin, to bring forth from within. The best form of education is guided curiosity. One learns best when curiosity is sparked. A good teacher knows how to do this. It is good to think new thoughts. As prophecy unfolds on the Planet people are going to be surprised at the new thoughts, ideas and insights that enter their minds. G-d is the ultimate teacher. Some people are scared of new thoughts because they threaten the frame of reference they have carefully and tirelessly built. What they must realise however is that this frame of reference influences their entire being.

Anyway, truth is pouring into the zeitgeist right now. You can avoid entering the stream of consciousness for only so long. G-d will get you in the end...

"Beware when the great God lets loose a thinker on this planet. Then all things
are at risk."

- Ralph Waldo Emerson

Dr. Dave

I wonder if they found the third tablet with the other 5 commandments that Mel Brooks accidentally dropped...


The History of the World Part I

Korbendallas72

The 5 books stand one. I just want to know about that Prague ayin, what the hell, guys?

Korbendallas72

That was supposed to say "the 5 books stand alone", but Hashem manifested himself in the form of a typo and my auto-spell.

Nigritude Ultramarine

If the pace is maintained, the final product will be complete a little over 200 years from now.

They're like cathedral builders.

Nigritude Ultramarine

@Dave's List

mazoh wasn't the hard cracker it is now
clothing wasn't distinct from others unless dress code was imposed by governments (like hats: Judenhut / pilleus cornutus -- mandated by the Fourth Lateran Council, 1215)
chickens did not have to be shected
the wine of gentiles was OK
polygamy was permitted
there was never a tradition (apart from for selected and respected scholars who would sit an do full time Torah learning and be supported by the commiunity) of large numbers of Jews such as Charedim of not working or being prepared to fight in the military
Chicken was pareve

Adam Neira

To Nigritude Ultramarine,

When Maimonides did his remarkable study of the Pentateuch he codified 613 mitzvot when in fact there are many more. One example that he didn't include was the need to carry a paddle outside the camp to perform one's ablutions. The question remains, can you place the mitzvot into some sort of hierarchy of importance ?

i.e. Is the negative commandment against child sexual abuse more important than the mitzvah to wear tfillin ?

The importance of this question is great, as so many scholars and sages have based their worldview and political philosophy on how they interpret the mitzvot. If you build a house and get the structural priorities wrong it will not stand for long. It will be also be a very ugly replacement model for what is really possible.

lol

the 11TH commandment that never made it's way in:
THOU SHALL NOT MOLEST THE SON OF THY NEIGHBOR

shmuel

See tosfos bt shabbos 55b "maaviram ksiv": "our talmud disagrees with our Biblical books..."
And see marc shapiro's work, the limits of orthodox theology, pp. 91--121, "the bible 'codes': a textual perspective" by jeffrey tigay of penn (oct. 13, 1999), "the idea of the sanctity of the biblical text and the science of textual criticism" by menachem cohen of bar ilan

shmuel

Even mishpacha magazine had a piece on this! See its kolmus magazine, pesach 5769, titled "text messages: distorted or just different? When chazal and tanach don't match"

Yochanan Lavie

Back from vacation: Ezra the scribe, and the commentator Ibn Ezra both state the torah we have is not the exact torah m'sinai. So even from an Orthodox standpoint, what these scholars are doing is legit.

Pagan

Another interesting observation (not mine, I hasten to add). If you look in an English Bible at Genesis xviii, you'll find the infamous "cities of the plain", Sodom and Gomorrah. You'll find almost the same in the Greek Septuagint. But in today's Torah, the second city is "Amorah". What gives?

The answer is that, not long after the 3rd century BCE, the Hebrew alphabet lost its 23rd letter, usually called "ghayin". Just as Greek had lost its digamma, centuries earlier. In other words, not just a verse here and there, but an entire letter of the alphabet has vanished from the Torah translated by the 72, and hence from any Torah that Moses wrote.

Not many words contained ghayin, and the homonyms that were created are usually distinguishable from context. But this evolution is a certain killer of the "Bible Codes" movement. You can't knock a letter systematically out of an entire text and hope to keep intact any equidistant letter sequence long enough to make a phrase.

Adam Neira

To Yochanan Lavie,

"what these scholars are doing is legit."

Correct !

Abracadabra

Pagan - that is fascinating. Do you have any sources for this?

Thanks.

dimlat

Not really news, see shulchan Aruch O C 143:40 and Ramo there.

Mendy Hecht

ok, what this all philosophically boils down to is rejection of God. So let me make this simple; Judaism works. (Some) people don't. The system works. The people (or at least some of them) are rotten. Don't equate the people with the system.

mimi

Matzo is just Lavosh. My dad remembers Lavosh from a child as a soft bread that hardens quickly because it is only flour and water. It is an everyday bread where he is from. I can only assume that factory made matzo "keeps" better when baked hard.

Personally I'm glad that religion evolves with civilization.

Golden calf/red heifer

@Pagan

How do you know that the "g" pronunciation of the letter ayin wasn't just standard or alternate pronunciation? Why do you claim with certainty it was a whole different letter that went missing? Couldn't it have been like the "בגדכפת" letters which all at one time had more than one pronunciation (bet-vet, gimmel-jimmel, etc.)?

Unless you can show a lot of evidence that "ghayin" was a different letter that completely vanished, I think it is dishonest to post as if it were indisputable fact.

That being said, found the article interesting. One thing I found funny that religious people I used to study with could never accept, somewhat on this same topic, is the fact that the Hebrew characters (with all their "kabbalistic" meanings on every nuance of their shape) weren't originally Hebrew letters but adopted from Aramaic probably around the first temples destruction. One interesting thing found in the dead sea scrolls were scriptures written all in the modern letters except for all the places gods yud, hey, vav, hey name was written, gods four letter name was written always in the original "paleo-Hebrew" letter form.

Garnel Ironheart

> Bible Project scholars have spent years combing through manuscripts such as the Dead Sea Scrolls, Greek translations on papyrus from Egypt, a printed Bible from 1525 Venice, parchment books in handwritten Hebrew, the Samaritan Torah, and scrolls in Aramaic and Latin.

The problem with using these sources is that none of them are authoritative. How does one know if a Dead Sea scroll fragment is from an actual Torah of that time or the handwritten note of someone trying to remember what he heard? The Samaritan and Greek Torahs were corrupted on purpose by folks in each group with an agenda. Despite the high level of scholarship this changes pretty much nothing.

Shmarya

This is simply false.

You can see that Chazal had a different version of the Torah than we have, and you can see the differences between the Leningrad Codex and the Alleppo Codex.

Stop spouting ArtScroll BS that was never thought true, even by them.

Pierre

This is a conversation in the Gemara and in virtually every generation...just because it's baked-up news to "The News" doesn't mean it's news TO THE JEWS - every few years I post these pieces and others because...well, every few years people forget the conversation a few years before;

http://cs.anu.edu.au/~bdm/dilugim/CohenArt/

http://www.leimanlibrary.com/texts_of_publications/74.%20Masorah%20and%20Halakhah%20A%20Study%20in%20Conflict.pdf

http://books.google.com/books?id=3mvL6tUMIA0C&pg=PA156&lpg=PA156&dq=fixing+god's+torah&source=bl&ots=9qMz4-MlEz&sig=AVH7IoH8lF83V84eVYDxGCvoQaQ&hl=en#v=onepage&q&f=false

Isa

There is the Ashkenazim Torah and the Sephardi Torah
The difference over 2000 years ?
One letter
The Ashkenazim has an Alef the Sephardi has an Aiyn
The Ashkenazim pronounces both the same
While the Sephardi, especially the Yemenite, uses a very distinct sound for the Aiyn

Shmarya

That really isn't true, Isa.

Both of those versions of the Torah are based on one of the two the Masorite versions (the same one), and date to about 900 CE.

There is no proof of standardization before then, and much of the standardization that exists after that comes from the increased intermingling of the two populations and then the printing press.

Pierre

R. Barry Freundel can give you - if either you or he have time - a whole megillah about the significance of changes in text, the middle letter of torah, blahx3. And obviously charedim will not accept his thoughts, but...he's not slouch on these things, and why would you people want to extol Right Wing views of the tradition as extolling the "true" perspectives on these things? The sources I give give OTHER voices, even "gedolim" of a RW caste - who utterly contradict the presumptions that the news source paint as those of Orthodox Judaisms et al.

ghj

This article is misleading garbage. Any real talmid chocham knows that this is nothing new.

There are several different ancient versions of the Tanach. They mostly differ in spelling. The traditional Jewish version is based on the Keter of Aleppo.

In his book Masters of the Word, Rav Yonatan Kolatch quotes HaRav Hershel Schachter as saying that the variant Biblical texts are a natural consequence of human copying error.

The Keter was always acknowledged as the most authoritative Tanach text. There are many responsa from the Middle Ages that show that the Keter was consulted for accuracy.

In the Mishna Torah, the Rambam says, "In these matters, we rely on the codex, now in Egypt, which contains the 24 books of Tanach and which had been in Jerusalem for several years. It was used as the standard text in the correction of books."

The Yemenites, who follow the Rambam, use this text in their Torah scrolls. There are 11 differences from our Torah. These are primarily chosar and molei--whether certain words have a vav in them or not.

Bar-Ilan has 10 volumes out, with critically corrected commentaries of the Targum, Rashi, Radak, and other rishonim.

There are a lot of things in Judaism about which even your typical frum Am haAretz is not aware.

Shmarya

The traditional Jewish version is based on the Keter of Aleppo.

Sigh.

No, ghj, the traditional version is NOT based on the Aleppo Codex.

The "traditional" version post-900 CE (or even later) is based on Aleppo.

Before that, rabbinic Jews – including Chazal – had several different versions.

And while copying errors clearly make up the majority of the differences between the versions, some of the differences go beyond that.

If this is confusing for RHS, well, that's too bad.

Pierre

Dr. Leiman lists examples that "go beyond that" in terms of consequences for practices that are not necessarily merely scribal errors.

Anon

Could there be any credence to the idea that the power of myth is not weather it is factual accurate or not? It has been suggested rather that the power of myth is it's ability to help communicate Truths which are otherwise not easily communicable.

shmuel

The guys at www.daatemet.com have a whole libfraRy of articles aBout just this issue. Click on "torah text".

shmuel

And what about the notion of "tikkun sofrim" in which chazal touched up @17 biblical verses out of respect for God? When is it thought that they did this,anyway?

Chicago Sam

Pagan is absolutely correct, and by the way--"Gaza" in Biblical Hebrew is "Aza," much for the same reason. Language changes, and by the way--the letters reish and dalet often got mixed up, because of their similarities--and sometimes created some embarrassing moments in the ancient synagogues, e.g.,

כי לא תשתחוה לאל אחר
(Exo 34:14 WTT)


שמע ישראל יקוק אלהינו יקוק אחד
(Deut. 6:4)

Why the enlarged letters? Because of the serious scribal errors that once occurred (switch the letters around in each passage, and you will see). The text of the Torah is not "immaculate," it is maculate! There never was a "perfect" Torah because the people who write the Torah are far from perfect.

Joe in Australia

No, Pagan is absolutely wrong. She mentions the Septuagint's transliteration (as well as the English one - which is of course based on the Septuagint, because English wasn't spoken until a thousand years after the Septuagint). The Septuagint has a transliteration based on the way that a Greek reader would have pronounced 'aza and 'amora (where 'a is an ayin). Greek doesn't have an equivalent to ayin, so they used a gamma. That doesn't mean that the Hebrew text had a ghayin: it didn't. In fact we have written Hebrew texts from the time of the Septuagint and before (e.g., the Dead Sea Scrolls, some inscriptions) and they use the same alphabet we have today.

Pagan

Sorry Joe, not so. LXX typically omits to transliterate ayin because it is (almost) silent. Baal and Balaam for instance contain ayin in Hebrew but no equivalent in Greek. The transliteration with gamma therefore represents a voiced letter.

Also, the nearest cognate languages to hebrew - Arabic and Ugaritic - keep the distinction between ayin and ghayin. Indeed, you can find many Arabic words that contain their ghain where the modern Hebrew has ayin, and the hypothesis that this was originally ghayin is a strong one.

(The example given in class was the word for "crow": Hebrew 'orev, Arabic ghuraab. The triliteral root is gh-r-b.) Likewise, triliteral gh-m-r became Arabic ghumr but Hebrew 'omer.

More on this can be found in Jeff Benner's article here: http://www.ancient-hebrew.org/4_missing.html

Yochanan Lavie

What did the ghayin look like? How did it differ from the gimmel and the 'ayin?

AaronM

Yochanan Lavie: "Look like" is a hard question to answer, but sound was probably more guteral/glottal. Think of the difference between a Hay and a Chet as an example:

Hay:Chet :: Gimmel:Ghayin

not a perfect explaination, but gets you into the ballpark.

A different way to think about it is in most older Semitic languages a Ayin is not a silent letter (like an aleph) but a glottal-stop - think of the hard pause in the phrase "I am" if you pronounce each word completely. A ayin is an unvoiced stop, a Ghayin is that same stop, but voiced.

Golden calf/red heifer

@pagan

Just because Arabic has a separate letter for ghain and ayin doesn't mean a damn thing. They also have separate letters for sin and shin (as well as others) next are you and your psuedolinguist friend Jeff Benner going to claim there is a missing letter sin that got obsorbed by the letter shin?

There is no hard evidence that there is a whole letter that went missing. Just that the ayin was pronounced differently at one point in time.

The gimmal and daled also had different pronunciations at one time. What is your point?

Captool

@Golden calf/red heifer Yes if you look back at all the different scripts extant when paleo-hebrew was being used you only find 22 letters. That is including other languages from the area that were closely related.

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