Spring Valley Man Killed, Child Critically Injured, By Downed Power Line

The man was apparently trying to rescue his son, who was being electrocuted by a downed power line.

 

According to Agudath Israel of America:

5.  If someone sees a power line fall and it poses a danger can one contact the authorities?
A person should never venture out during or right after a hurricane. Coming in contact with downed power lines could be fatal. Unless the power line could cause a serious danger to the people in the home, one should wait until after Shabbos to report it.

The problem, of course, is that you never know who else might wander over, make contact with the power line, and die.

That means all downed power lines should be considered threats to life and should be immediately reported.

According to VIN, a man was killed in Spring Valley today, his son a boy very critically injured, and the boy's father burned by a downed power line. The child apparently came into contact with the power line and his father tried to save him and was killed trying.

Whether they ventured outside to go to shul or yeshiva (which would appear to be forbidden according to Agudah's instructions) and the line fell on the boy, or whether the boy didn't see the downed line and came into contact with it, here's more proof that human life must take precedence over Shabbat halakha, communal prayer, and other Jewish law.

Sadly, I'm hearing that some hasidic schools/camps in Spring Valley and surrounding areas opened today, despite police warnings to stay inside and to keep schools and other similar institutions closed – which could explain why the child was outside.

A hurricane is dangerous even after it has passed, and a downed power line is always a threat to life and should be treated as such, no matter what rabbis might tell you to the contrary.

There is no safe way for civilians to guard access to a downed power line, and every moment a live power line is down, it poses a real and present danger to life.

And as hasidim in Spring Valley seemed to have learned today, their rabbis who disregarded police and public safety warnings do not know what they are doing.

Update 3:50 pm CDT – VIN updated its post. It was a passerby who was killed trying to save the boy, who is in extremely critical condition. The boy's father was treated for burns and released from the hospital.

The boy got tangled in live power lines obscured by floodwaters on a Spring Valley street.

Update 7:10 pm CDT – The Journal News reports:

A man was electrocuted today when he tried to save a 5-year-old Spring Valley boy who grabbed a live electrical wire on his flooded street and suffered critical burns during the onslaught of Tropical Storm Irene, authorities said.

David M. Reichenberg, 50, a father of four, was buried tonight at a Route 306 cemetery, following the tenets of Orthodox Judaism for a quick burial.

The injured boy, Reuven Herbst, remained in critical condition at Westchester Medical Center in Valhalla. His father, who also was burned by the wire when he joined in the rescue, was treated at Good Samaritan Hospital in Suffern and released.

The incident occurred at Merrick Drive and Union Road after the wire was knocked down from the winds generated by Irene. Hatzoloh Ambulance Corps responded.…

Comments

[Uzi Ben Asher]

Well, as the storm hit late in the evening, after Shabbos was over, I doubt if they were headed to shul.

This has nothing to do with rabbis, but with common sense. When you see a downed power line, call 911 for help immediately, on Shabbos, Yom Kippur, or any other day.

[Seriously]

you are a sick FUCK!!!!

[Anon]

you are a sick FUCK!!!!

Posted by: Seriously

I don't understand. SR didn't create the news. He reported it.

And he's right. The police ordered people stay INSIDE.

The chassidishe rabbis opened schools today.

For what purpose?

BDE

[ruthie]

so stupid...opening schools today...
i went to home depot, lowes and target....friday...looking for D batteries.....finally..found a batch in wesley kosher....
my first thought was huh???

[lol]

WHAT IS THE CONNECTION WITH HALACHA?!?!?!?

who says anyone had seen the wire? maybe it fell ON HIM!?

but no, this must be the handiwork of an evil charedi trying to manipulate the world

[ISSEY]

It is important to report the truth.if you are a truthful person.NONE ZERO OF THE FACTS THAT YOU WROTE ARE TRUE. Today is Sunday NOT SHABBOS the information about shabbos does not apply .NEXT there is no school in MONSEY opened today school open on Tuesday .I feel sorry for you that you have sooooooooooooooo much HATE FOR PEOPLE.I hope that you see each story for what it is and report it without the HATE.

[mordecai]

The CONFUCIANISTS (after Confucius died) broke into two school: one positing that human nature is at its core good. The other positing that human nature, at its core, is bad. The former was championed by Mencius (Meng-Tzu) and the latter by Hsun-Tzu.

Mencius said that if a child were sitting on the edge of a well any member of the human race would naturally (without thinking) run to save the child. Hence, he concluded, human nature is good.

But Mencius did not know about the ultr-orthodox. I suppose we could substitute a downed power-line and a child. Maybe Mencius was wrong.

[devorah]

Issey, most schools in Monsey are open today. Where do you think all the school busses are going filled with kids?

As for the many illegal yeshivas in Monsey, hopefully, they would be flooded and closed since they are fire traps to begin with and have leaking ceilings with electrical wires hanging out.

[seymour]

totally irresponsible and should be condemned for not caring about the children safety

why don't they heed the advice from the police and others who know beetr than they do about safety issues

if they where out to go to school or wait for the bus the yeshiva administration should be charged for accessory to murder

[seymour]

Posted by: ISSEY | August 28, 2011 at 12:52 PM

it is reported by many commentators on vin that some yeshivas are opened

[WoolSilkCotton]

Whatever the secular authorities recommend, the frumma will do the opposite.

The frumma are completely ignorant of science and electricity, and so a downed power line means nothing to them. Even if it did, they would call the rebbe first to ask what to do. They are even more stupid than Chelm.

[mordecai]

I do not know the facts of the deaths but it appears to be a tragedy. Accidents themselves are not tragedies (in the literary sense). A true tragedy (in the literary sense) happens when there is a horrible occurrence as a consequence of a flaw in the character or personality of an individual. A mere accident is not a tragedy.

I have been thinking about a post several days ago about New Square and the fact that the massive lack of adherence to building codes and vehicular regulations results in deaths. I was stunned by the fact that 2-3 hassids die each year in New Square from fires.

In general the failure of individuals to arrogantly ignore reasonable precautions is the heart of the tragedy. Do hassids ignore zoning regulations, traffic regulations, warnings from goyische authorities (police, fire marshals, etc.), laws more than the average bear?

If it is true that the answer to the question is "yes" then why would this be the case:

1. Ignorance?
2. Arrogance?
3. Sense of superiority?
4. Contempt of the goyische authority structure?
5. Adherence to Torah law over civil law?

I would not want to be driving in New Square, Kiryas Yoel, Crown Heights, or Boro Park Friday afternoon in the haste and rush pre-shabbos.

[WoolSilkCotton]

Mordecai, 1-4 definitely. And number 5 is a 'yes' but only because of their distorted interpretations of Torah law.

[seymour]

Posted by: WoolSilkCotton | August 28, 2011 at 01:31 PM

you are missing the point they have Torah knowledge that is all one needs.
Who needs science, when you have Torah knowledge

i am waiting for some idiot rebbie to come out and say this happened because monsey did not oppose the gay marriage bill as strongly as they shoyuld have

[seymour]

do not know what happened but this is why one must report a downed power-line to 911 even on shabbos as opposed to Augudath Israel's instructions, which is irresponsible and dangerous

Their logic makes no sense, since they do not care about others who might be walking in the street or rescue workers or con Edison workers who might be in the area

[Visting the sick]

Baruch dayan emet.

[mordecai]

you are missing the point they have Torah knowledge that is all one needs.
Who needs science, when you have Torah knowledge
Posted by: seymour | August 28, 2011 at 01:55 PM

Seymour, I agree with this statement. However there is also something more here.

Let us say you are a hassidic homeowner in New Square. As a practical matter you need some electrical work, ie., rewiring a room. You can hire a state certified electrician such as Sean McDonald (made up name), the local electrical contractor.

When the average person hires an electrical contractor his religion is irrelevant. The hassid wants to keep the money in the community (not bad to do necessarily so long as the community contractor is competent). The hassid knows that uncle Shmuley or cousin Moshe fiddles around with electrical matters and pays Shmuley or Moshe 1/2 that the goy McDonald would get. Nobody goes down to the zonin g office to get the plans approved. It is done by the seat of the pants. The results are predictable.

[lion]

it was a different person who gave his life to try to save the child not a relative
a true mench who is a tzadik dying al kiddush hashem

the other question of why the chilwas outside still needs to be answered

[monseyboy]

Shmarya: you are an evil bitch. Hashem should take his wrath out on you and you should die a very evil death. I will come out and rejoice at your funeral.

[Na]

הכל בידי שמים חוץ מיראת שמים- is the כונה for the רבונו של עולם not, this should be considered before all these posts and comments- we only have one life to live, live it to the fullest!!

[Shmaryah,is a dirty filthy safe hating, piece of human garbage]

Shmaryah,you are nothing but a piece of human excrement,hope and pray you get cancer real soon,and die a slow and painfull death

[Electric Avenue]

Many of the best electrical subcontractors in the NY area are frum, (although plumbing seems to be the first choice among frum tradesmen). They and other self-taught immigrant and first generation American electricians know more about electricity than your average electrical engineer does because they're pros who love what they do and live and breathe electricity. The frum ones in particular find understanding electricity a cinch next to understanding Gemara.

Next?

[mordecai]

Many of the best electrical subcontractors in the NY area are frum, (although plumbing seems to be the first choice among frum tradesmen). They and other self-taught immigrant and first generation American electricians know more about electricity than your average electrical engineer does because they're pros who love what they do and live and breathe electricity. The frum ones in particular find understanding electricity a cinch next to understanding Gemara.

Next?

Posted by: Electric Avenue | August 28, 2011 at 03:10 PM

I have no reason to debate this point. Let us assume this is all quite true. Please explain then for the edification of the dumb masses why there is such a widespread problem in the ultra-frum communities with piss poor adherence to zoning, houses burning down, citations for faulty wiring.

What is the cause of this?

[Dave]

just another example of putz and flutz taking a tragedy and spinning into his anti religious agenda way to go prick!!!

[WoolSilkCotton]

++they and other self-taught immigrant and first generation American electricians++

Exactly what country do these brilliant frumma electricians come from?

Are any of them licensed or certified?

Please explain the difference between these amazing frumma electricians and "electrical engineers".

If studying Gemorrah makes understanding electricity so easy, why doesn't any rabbi seem to understand how to deal with halachic questions about electricity?

[Michael from Lakewood]

"Many of the best electrical subcontractors in the NY area are frum,....."

This may or may not be true. I have no information to support or dispute this. Just wondering, what is your definition of 'best'?

".....They and other self-taught immigrant and first generation American electricians know more about electricity than your average electrical engineer does because they're pros who love what they do and live and breathe electricity......"

This is one of the most ignorant things I've ever read anywhere. Would your statement also apply to the large number of electricians who are killed or severely burned on the job? Does this only happen to 2nd, 3rd, or 4th generation American electricians? And where does the disdain come from for electrical engineers? Are you jealous?

".....The frum ones in particular find understanding electricity a cinch next to understanding Gemara."

What percentage of these people qualify (or attempt to qualify) for apprenticeships, or have been through that recognized training and are now Journeymen or Journeywomen in the IBEW? Can you name any? One?

Next?

Posted by: Electric Avenue | August 28, 2011 at 03:10 PM

Next, indeed.

[OMG]

Posted by: Shmaryah,is a dirty filthy safe hating, piece of human garbage | August 28, 2011 at 03:09 PM

Any person who would curse another human to such a degree, while he never committed any physical harm to any human, is vile, and shows his true colors. Shmarya doesn’t need my help, but scum like you bring shame to every religious Jew.

[OMG]

Posted by: mordecai | August 28, 2011 at 03:14 PM

Come on, studding Torah will gave you the inside to everything; nothing is new since when the Hebrew has decided to follow the laws of the Torah on Mount Sinai. All developments in the last 3000 years, it is all a mirage.

[Uzi Ben Asher]

A little more on the story: It happened today (Sunday) at 11:00 AM, which was when the back end of the storm was hitting Rockland County.

A little kid, 5, was either playing in or attempting to cross a flooded area, and he didn't see the downed wires. His dad tried to rescue him and was burned. A good Samaritan then came to their aid, and was killed.

I got this from WABC-TV, which didn't mention any religious angle to the story.

[seymour]

Posted by: Electric Avenue | August 28, 2011 at 03:10 PM

yes yes

I propose that if one went to yeshiva and can learn gemurha ones need not pass any exams for any field they should be given a license for anything since if one knows gemurha anything else is child's play

WoolSilkCotton I assume you have a medical degree from a medical school and not from a yeshiva. And I assume you also learned gemurha.

can you please enlighten us and Electric Avenue what did you learn in medical school that one could not have learned just by learning gemurah?

[seymour]

Posted by: Electric Avenue | August 28, 2011 at 03:10 PM

what you fail to mention if what you say it true and i doubt it, since you bring no statistics to prove your point.
It that all their work needs to be examined and approved by a licensed electrician after their work is done. or , that they just followed a plan created by a licensed electrical engineer and they just pulled th wires.
another words common laborers and idiot can do that
therefore they are just idiots who followed a plan created by someone else .

[David]

. Unless the power line could cause a serious danger to the people in the home, one should wait until after Shabbos to report it.

It is always a presumption that that a downed power line is a serious danger and MUST be reported to authorities immediately.

The frumma just don't get it.

[WoolSilkCotton]

Who needs medical school? I wasted so many years in medical school and residency. If somebody gets sick, just call the rebbe and ask what to do.
You would be amazed how many frumma patients will not listen to what the doctor recommends, even in a catastrophic emergency when every second counts, and they insist on calling the rebbe to ask if the doctor is right and what they should do.

[seymour]

Unless the power line could cause a serious danger to the people in the home, one should wait until after Shabbos to report it.

that statement has to be one of the dumbest and stupidest and most irresponsible statement they ever made

amazingly, the frummas never question them and just follow them and if a electrical engineer tells them otherwise they just say

we follow dass Torah they know better

I posted this ruling on vin, and commented how irresponsible it was and dangerousness and of course got attacked.

It seems once a rebbie says something, there brain just shuts off and agree no matter how stupid it is and no matter that any person with an IQ above 20 can see how wrong they are

[WoolSilkCotton]

And if you don't know what wire goes where, just call the rebbe.

Connect any wires you want. G-d will guide you to connect the right ones, and if you mess it up, so what, you can always say it was bashert.

Make sure to get the money from the customer in advance.

[seymour]

Posted by: WoolSilkCotton | August 28, 2011 at 04:38 PM

true when my father was very sick i spoke to the doctors and some relatives asked if i asked a rebbie i said what the f should i ask the rebbie what does he know?

Strange very strange

[jancsipista]

seymour- thats why we are in such a terrible situation with theese molesters because everything is ask the rebbe, well the rebbe wont incriminate himself by that i mean his own so we go around and around in a circle and deluding themselfs forever and ever.

[nobody]

People should not assume what happened before they know. Let's wait to find out the details.

[WoolSilkCotton]

Nobody, it may very well be true that the horrible event might have occurred anyway, no matter what any rebbe said about downed wires, or whether the school was open or closed today.

Nevertheless, the ruling by that rebbe was based on his ignorance of the danger of a downed wire, and foolish people who handed over their brains to the rebbe obeyed without a second thought. This could happen again if people don't understand the danger of such wires. Instead, they will be told this was because of gays, the internet, not praying enough, not giving enough money to the rebbe, etc.

Opening the schools today could have lead to a bus crash, child swept away by rushing flood waters, etc., but the sheep will remain ignorant, because the rebbe said open the schools, and nothing bad happened, so the rebbe is right and the secular authorities are wrong.

[seymour]

because the rebbe said open the schools, and nothing bad happened, so the rebbe is right and the secular authorities are wrong.

Posted by: WoolSilkCotton | August 28, 2011 at 07:35 PM

and even if something bad does happen they will always have an excuse and reason to blame the secular and gentiles why bad things happend

today the popular excuse is the gay marriage bill
70 80 years ago is was Zionism.

tomorrow it will be something else

but it is never them, or their rebbies

never

[Adam Neira]

Prayers for the man and the child.

[bmos]

According to reports, the downed power line HAD been reported much earlier to the electric company and the electric company did not send a truck to repair or turn off the line. The line was in water and not seen by the child. How any of you can take a tragic incident and turn it into an anti Hareidi rant is beyond me and shows the dept of your hatred and lack of humanity. Shame on all of you

[batyahgirl@yahoo.com]

Bmos, what you say may indeed be true, that the downed power line was reported and an unpreventable accident occurred. However, I think Shmarya's point is that it is standard practice among the ultraorthodox to turn off their brains even when their lives or the lives of others are in danger. I have seen this with my own eyes. That in SOME instances, haredi cultism is not to blame for an accident does not nullify the FACT that more often than not, haredi cultism is to blame. No one, under any circumstances, should hesitate to pick up the phone on shabbat to report when a power line is down. To hesitate is insanity. I can't put it any more politely. We have the ruling from Agudath, so I am not sure why you are not as appalled as the rest of us at what it said. Also, the little boy should not have been out and about and wading through water when the secular authorities urged everyone to stay inside one more day.

[Shmarya]

According to reports, the downed power line HAD been reported much earlier to the electric company and the electric company did not send a truck to repair or turn off the line. The line was in water and not seen by the child. How any of you can take a tragic incident and turn it into an anti Hareidi rant is beyond me and shows the dept of your hatred and lack of humanity. Shame on all of you

Posted by: bmos | August 28, 2011 at 09:43 PM

Lets see:

1. Police, the fire department, the city and state governments, and FEMA all told people to STAY INSIDE because it's dangerous to go out.

2. One of the reasons it is dangerous to go out is that there are thousands of downed power lines, and there is no way for the power company to repair all of them immediately.

3. A haredi family apparently allowed a 5 year old child to play outside in a flooded street, despite those warnings.

4. The child comes into contact there with a live power line and is severely injured. Another hasidic man was killed trying to save him and the boy's father was burned.

5. You, for reasons best explained by a psychiatrist, blame the power company and attack me and anyone else who points out the lack of concern for safety rules among hasidim – whose villages, like New Square, are ridden with illegal structures and additions that are huge fire and safety problems.

6. What you should do is apologize. Somehow, though, I doubt you will.

[Nigritude Ultramarine]

I can't say this business of turning Judaism into mini sects of wannabe12 Hasidim has been a good thing for the rest of us -- viz. "the norms."

My wife's OB/GYN was very abrupt with us during a consult because he assumed we would need to go to a rabbi for a second opinion. His attitude showed marked improvement when I told him we were there for his opinion. Later, he went on to describe a case similar to my wife's in which a couple consulted with a rabbi. The rabbi recommended life endangering treatment contrary to the doctor's evidence based medical advice.

As he was telling the story, I got the feeling one gets upon learning that his daughter is engaged to a doctor; except the future son in law is not the usual kind of doctor, but rather a witch doctor or maybe even a chiropractor. Meanwhile I have to act as if this is just a perfectly normal thing and just tell myself that no one is snickering.

@WSC

You would be amazed how many frumma patients will not listen to what the doctor recommends, even in a catastrophic emergency when every second counts, and they insist on calling the rebbe to ask if the doctor is right and what they should do.

[Joe in Australia]

Shmarya, I don't think the anecdotes about New Square's illegal structures are relevant. On the other hand, you're absolutely right about the urgency of reporting all downed power lines. I hope this tragedy leads Agudah to reconsider their position.

Incidentally, I tried to find safety advice about rescuing people in contact with a downed power line. I couldn't find any: every reference says not to rescue them because it's incredibly dangerous. That being said, I don't know whether I would be able to stand by under those circumstances.

[Shmarya]

Shmarya, I don't think the anecdotes about New Square's illegal structures are relevant.

Anecdotes?!?!?

I just posted a video last week that shows these "anecdotes" and has fire officials complaining bitterly about them.

They're fire traps, God forbid, death traps, God forbid. And they're all over hasidic New Square.

[chnoch]

shmarya,you have courage , the guts and the strength, mental strength, to stand up and speak out on what is so so wrong with the over religious bigots. let those who attempt to curse you,find in the end they will suffer for their shameless pride.[ with reference to 3.09 message dated 28th aug].

[Electric Avenue]

There are plenty of licensed frum electricians and contractors. Now get a life all of you losers, before one of them is called to fix the ECT machine that keeps you out of the funny farm.

[nobody]

"Another hasidic man was killed"

As far as I know, he is not hasidic, is he? I was told that he is a BT and a graduate of Ohr Sameach.

People were outside all over my town. My town is full of gentiles. Lots and lots of gentiles and barely any Jews. Gentiles were out and about, taking pictures of the damage and surveying their own property for damages. You act like the entire country was under lockdown and it was an extreme danger to even walk outside and that anyone who did deserves condemnation. That is simply ridiculous! There were even some people (very few, obviously) who drove around my town which had some roads flooded.

It is sick that you are using this to lash out at haredim. This was a tragedy. A tzaddik also tried to save a child and lost his life. Leave your agenda for another day.

[nobody]

And for clarity's sake, the Aguda position is insane. That being said, this downed power line had already been reported at 2am, as claimed by the neighbor. So aguda or no aguda, it's senseless and cruel to blame the victims here. (and I DON'T mean aguda, I mean the victims who were killed and harmed and their families).

[Deremes]

nobody-Not only was it reported the night earlier but from what i heard O&R made a TEMPORARY repair without closing the area with yellow tape.

[Uzi Ben Asher]

Well, if the power company had been notified at 2:00 AM Sunday, they certainly could have shut off power to the affected area by 11:00 AM. I understand that during a severe storm it's dangerous for crews to be out in the field but a shutoff could have easily been done remotely, like by 2:15 AM.

My father was the attorney for the IBEW local representing Orange & Rockland Power until 1989, when he retired, as well as for several other IBEW locals reprenting other utilities. Later, in retirement, he worked as an arbitrator and generally ruled against management.

It was a lousy company with terrible labor relations when he represented the union, and I guess things haven't improved. I think he had more problems with Orange & Rockland than with PSE&G, JCP&L or any other utility he was involved with.

I blame the utility here. No excuse for not shutting off the line during the height of the storm.

[Shmarya]

Well, if the power company had been notified at 2:00 AM Sunday, they certainly could have shut off power to the affected area by 11:00 AM. I understand that during a severe storm it's dangerous for crews to be out in the field but a shutoff could have easily been done remotely, like by 2:15 AM.

I don't believe this is true.

There were hundreds – maybe thousands – of powerlines down, and it wasn't safe to work during the storm.

And the utility had no way to borrow workers from nearby power companies, because everyone was in the same boat.

People were clearly warned to stay inside and were told about the risks.

If this family had listened to those warnings, we wouldn't be having this discussion now.

That said, it is worth checking to see how many lines were down, how many workers were available, and how long others had to wait.

[Uzi Ben Asher]

You can shut it off remotely. Nobody expects a crew to come out during the height of the storm.

Where I live, a line went down about a mile from my house. Power was off for 11 hours, as it was shut from at the local JCP & L office. It was determined the next morning that the downed line only affected one dwelling, and power was restored in the 1 square mile or so area, except to that house and a couple others.

As of yesterday evening the line from the main line to the house was still down, but not a danger to anybody.

But of course, you're the expert on electricity, just as you are on legal matters, secular and religious, and on everything else.

[Uzi Ben Asher]

Also, when the crew comes out, what they'll do is wire a new line rather than try to reconnect the old one, which is usually impossible anyway. The problem is the old, dead line is typically left dangling for another day or two, leading people to believe there's a downed power line which is live.