New Chabad Children's Book Teaches Kids How To Behave At The Rebbe's Grave

But there is a problem with this book, if it's to be judged by its cover.

 

The book is called, "A Door that Opens for All," and it's billed as halakha (Jewish law) for youth.

Look closely at the cover and what you'll see is a boy inside the ohel, mausoleum, knocking on the door of the Rebbe's old office in 770 Eastern Parkway, Brooklyn, NY.

And then look at the title again: "A Door that Opens for All."

Knock on the door, so to speak, and the Rebbe will answer your questions, requests and prayers.

Beseeching the dead or seeking to contact the dead is clearly forbidden in Jewish law. So is praying to the dead or requesting anything from the dead. That's why the Ben Ish Hai, the Sefardi rabbinic decisor of Jewish law from the late 1800s who often decides halakha based on the Zohar or on the Ari Zal, very clearly states that you cannot do these things when you visit graves of tzaddikim before the High Holidays. And that is the normative Ashkenazic halakha, as well.

But Chabad has never let halakha get in the way of their theology, which is becoming ever closer to Catholicism each day:

[Hat Tip: Yisrael Medad of My Right Word and the Menachem Begin Center.]

Comments

[lion]

dont understand the crtiticism

it clearly doesnt have anything to do with meshechist crackpots

it actually means that the rebbe is buried there and according to other poskim you can and should daven at your rebbis grave and look at rav sonnenfeld who frequented his rebbes grave

[Shmarya]

dont understand the crtiticism

it clearly doesnt have anything to do with meshechist crackpots

it actually means that the rebbe is buried there and according to other poskim you can and should daven at your rebbis grave and look at rav sonnenfeld who frequented his rebbes grave

Posted by: lion | August 28, 2011 at 10:22 AM

What don't you understand?

It's really very simple.

Praying *AT* a tzaddik's grave is allowed and even encouraged, if the prayers are wholly directed to God.

The minute you start asking the tzaddik for anything you've violated halakha.

[Isa]

Hey I know where they got that 'knocking at the door ' idea from!

There is a well known [among christians that is] picture with jesus knocking at a door!

[Sami]

The dood IS at the ohel not 770

[Shmarya]

The dood IS at the ohel not 770

Posted by: Sami | August 28, 2011 at 10:45 AM

Um, the Ohel doesn't have a wood panel door on the inside taken from the Rebbe's office in 770. But the picture of the Ohel has added that in.

Got that, "dood"?

[yisroel]

There are different opinions:
lubavitchers follow the opinion that it is absolutely fine (and reccomendable) to ask Tzadikim to davven on our behalf (even after their passing).
In fact according to the gemara in Sotha Kalev did just that at the graves of the Avos.

[Yosef ben Matitya]

as halakha (Jewish law) for youth.??

what's the business of kids in a graveyard? halloween all year round?? all saints day all year round?
halakha? for kids?
what with lo tosifoon?
what with doresh el hameissim?

[Yosef ben Matitya]

So a Malky Tagar is now posseqet halokho for Chabad?
(the gilgul of the baalas ov ? is she?)
Their former rebbe is said to have used to direct those with halokho quiries to reb Moshe Feinstein!
Maybe then he sent to RM'F inquiries of trivial halokhos not those of Inyonei Molkhus which he kept to himself & now it's Rabbah Malky?

[Shmarya]

There are different opinions:
lubavitchers follow the opinion that it is absolutely fine (and reccomendable) to ask Tzadikim to davven on our behalf (even after their passing).
In fact according to the gemara in Sotha Kalev did just that at the graves of the Avos.

Posted by: yisroel | August 28, 2011 at 11:27 AM

I don't know who told you that, but there hasn't been a recognized position allowing praying to or asking help from dead tzaddikim in past 1500 years.

That Chabad created an aberrant one, or that another hasidic group did, doesn't make it kosher.

[Hersh Man]

Keep knocking these guys Shmarya - you are doing work that should really be done by our "Gedolim"!! Kol Hakovad!

[Yissy-CA]

How about those schneerson cookies everyone eats after coming out? I once visited a catholic church and the catholics were eating "the body of christ". Looked like a small cracker. Those cookies look an awful like those crackers.

[Simple Jew]

B"H

Can someone do us all a favor and cite the Kitzur Shulchan Aruch-

Doesn't it say there that in Elul I think erev RH or before RH/YK we go to grave of tzadikim and prostrate ourselves over the graves and implove the tzadikim to pray to Hashem on our behalf.

Shmarya - why don't you leave the Rebbe alone? Focus on something positive instead of trying to make trouble.

[mordecai]

There is really no difference between the early Jewish Christians and the Chabad messianics. The early Jewish Christians did not believe in the Father/Son/Holy Ghost. That concept arose from the marriage of Hellenic soteriology (influenced by the Greek Mystery Religions) and Jewish messianic doctrine.

The early Jewish Christians followed the Torah; they did not abandon it as did the Paulines. They just thought the messiah had come. So too do the Chabad messianists.

We see before us the early development of a new religion. It will never expand beyond the strict confines of Chabad. Whether the messianists will take the whole Chanad along with them is an open question. The Satmars aren't buying any of this tripe. And they aren't buying real tripe for that matter either.

At least the early Jewish Christians openly proclaimed Jesus the messiah unabashedly. The CHABAD seem to be tip-toeing around the issue. I think they are too sophisticated to think that once they openly proclaim Dagon Schneerson the messiah, Jews will leave the CHABAD ship in droves and money will begin to dry up.

[Levi]

For those that can read (and understand) Hebrew, here is a link to hebrewbooks.org of the maharam shik (teshuvah 293) that lists the opinions both ways. To state unequivocally that it is forbidden is just advertising ones arrogance and ignorance

http://hebrewbooks.org/pdfpager.aspx?req=1494&st=&pgnum=205

Secondly, the door in the picture is actually at the ohel. Most of the time the door is open, so you may not have noticed it.
See here for pic from the inside

http://www.google.com/imgres?q=ohel+gravesite+of+lubavitcher+rebbe&hl=en&sa=G&rlz=1T4GGLL_enUS342US342&tbm=isch&tbnid=QQ4FeiSm9fWUJM:&imgrefurl=http://www.ponkawonka.com/cm/displayimage.php%3Falbum%3D3%26pos%3D198&docid=BrjuAGPUaoXg6M&w=360&h=234&ei=6Y9aTr6UMKnkiAKr1KzPCQ&zoom=1&iact=hc&vpx=245&vpy=333&dur=157&hovh=181&hovw=279&tx=172&ty=157&page=1&tbnh=128&tbnw=171&start=0&ndsp=38&ved=1t:429,r:29,s:0&biw=1600&bih=674

and here, the other door

http://lubavitch.com/news/article/2018794/At-the-Ohel.html

Shmarya, a lot of the time I log on to see valid criticism etc. and I commend you for that, but with posts like these I begin to wonder

[Visting the sick]

When i daven at the ohel, it's not for the Rebbe to intercede on my behalf. It's in the merit of my visiting the kivrei tzdikim that I hope my prayers are answered.

And no, I do not knock on the door, but I've seen hasidim who do.

To avoid the appearance that my visit was "Rebbe-centric" I also stop by the nearby matzeivos of his rebbetzin and other prominent Chabad personalities.

Anyway, those are my own personal guidelines.

[Simple Jew]

B"H

Mordechai -- #s don't matter to jews. If you want to have the "most" or "majority" you will be better off CH"VS as muslim or Xian.

Ultra meshicists don't go to the Ohel.

Guys... find something to improve the world... don't waste your time trying to disparage good jews.

[Sohn of Schneer]

I cover all my bases.

First I go to the Scheer's ohel.

Then I just get hungry and sign, Oh, hell, I'll have a nosh.

So I go to Genero's Pizza place and have a slice of pepperoni and cheese. I know some poskin that we shouldn't mix milkhigs and fleshigs but if it is treyf according to the Satmar rebbe I figure, since I don't follow his shita, that it is OK.

Then I go to a Kosher Nosh place near Boro Park and cancel out the treyf with some disgusting kosher garbage.

Next I stop at the Shrine of Mother Mary near the St. Patrick's Church to relax and pick up shikses.

Finally, I return to kollel and fall asleep.

[anon]

im surprised yl hasnt yet done a 'keep on knockin and you cant come in' parody.

[Yosef ben Matitya]

In fact according to the gemara in Sotha Kalev did just that at the graves of the Avos.

From all the sea of the talmud, Chabad has chosen Sotah to study and restudy year after year.
Perhaps be they cling to it to highlight the fact that they themselves are Sotim among Jews, (a group aberration).
Besides, on a separate topic, Sotah is written with the letter Tet, so not Sotha nor Sosa nor Sossah.
I will allow Soytah to go along with their 'minhag ovot' to insert an invisible yud after a cholam male.

[Yosef ben Matitya]

Was it Simple Jew u said?
"... don't waste your time trying to disparage good jews".

Good?? Jews??

[Levi]

and ‘simple jew’ is right!!!
see Kitzur shulchan aruch, (the most basic and accepted code of Jewish law that every Jew should know!) siman 128 se’if 13:
The custom is to go to the cemetery on erev rosh hashana to prostate oneself on the graves of the tzadikim … to awaken the tzadikim … to intercede positively on our behalf on the Day of Judgment …
As they say, 'in your face!'

[Yosef ben Matitya]

Hey I know where they got that 'knocking at the door ' idea from!

There is a well known [among christians that is] picture with jesus knocking at a door!

cool, why not use the yeshu artwork and photoshop his hair shorter. the rebbe then would look more authentic dressed like avraham, yitzchak and yaakov!

[Abu Jihad Schneerson]

I have never understood why Judaism hasn't got a movement like the Salafis in Islam who prohibit8against other Muslims'opinion):praying at graves,astrology,superstition,amulets and the idea of tzaddikim's intercession without any compromise.

[mordecai]

When i daven at the ohel, it's not for the Rebbe to intercede on my behalf. It's in the merit of my visiting the kivrei tzdikim that I hope my prayers are answered.
Posted by: Visting the sick | August 28, 2011 at 02:08 PM

Visiting the Sick:

I do not comment on your post in any sense to disparage or attack you. Frankly, I do not understand this concept of gaining extra merit from visiting the grave of a Tzaddek (assuming Schneerson was one).

I understand that one of the major disagreements as between the Mithnagdim and the Hassids was the aggrandizement of the Rebbe to the level of Tzaddek.

Underlying this tension is the belief (by many Jews) that the prohibition against idolatry inures to the aggrandizement of the individual such that focus on the individual Tzaddeck amplifies our prayers. In other words it is as if our prayers would be puny to G-d but for the extra boost that comes from going to the Rebbe's grave.

When this subject arises many individuals (such as you) say that they are not praying to the Rebbe but that they seek this extra boost from the Rebbe by praying at his grave. Why is this not a distinction without a difference. Why is this not a form of idolatry?

I ask this question with the sincere desire to know your view and not to denigrate your belief.

[mordecai]

Mordechai -- #s don't matter to jews. If you want to have the "most" or "majority" you will be better off CH"VS as muslim or Xian.
Posted by: Simple Jew | August 28, 2011 at 02:13 PM

Since when are messianic Lubavitchers Jews?

[Shmarya]

and ‘simple jew’ is right!!!
see Kitzur shulchan aruch, (the most basic and accepted code of Jewish law that every Jew should know!) siman 128 se’if 13:
The custom is to go to the cemetery on erev rosh hashana to prostate oneself on the graves of the tzadikim … to awaken the tzadikim … to intercede positively on our behalf on the Day of Judgment …
As they say, 'in your face!'

Posted by: Levi | August 28, 2011 at 02:50 PM

Idiot.

You're both prime examples of what is so terribly wrong with Chabad today.

The custom to "prostrate" on the graves of tzaddikim to "awaken them" to intercede for the Jewish people very specifically prohibits beseeching the dead tzaddikim, asking them for anything or praying to them.

But because you grew up in a sewer, and spent your formative years 'learning' your dead cult leader's teachings rather than actual Judaism, you don't know that.

There is no legitimate second opinion to the contrary.

[David]

What would be kids actually be asking the Rebbe for anyway?

[A. Nuran]

Praying to a dead Jew who is going to or has come back from the dead to redeem the world? If that's Judaism, then Islam is looking more like the last monotheistic idol-hating religion

[Korbendallas72]

Jews are supposed to smash idols, not pray to them. If that includes your idol-rebbe-shaliach-master then so be it. My help comes from Hashem, not some fat bearded schmuck in Kollel.

[seymour]

don't all chassdeim do this

they go to the bobov rebbie grave and give a kveiteil so the rebbie can help and ask hasem for your health or whatever.

[Office of the Chief Rabbi]

Forgive me for stating the obvious:

One of the basic differences between Hasidism and normative Judaism is the role of the tzaddik, i.e. the rebbe. While the rest of us do not believe in intermediaries, Hasidim believe the tzadik has a closer relationship with God and can therefore intercede with God and bring your prayers to God's attention. And, for some time, they've felt dead rebbes can do it as well, since they are all sitting, in their minds, at the right hand of God.

As to the halacha being somewhat different: there is the unfortunate perception that Hasidim are Orthodox Jews. Instead, they follow their own customs e.g. are lax about prayer times [Ask "Why put on t''fillin at 3 PM, when final K'riat Sh'ma time was, like, 10 AM?"]; Hasidische shechita (the knife); and of course the whole avodah zarah rebbeism.
Moreover, note that instead of mainstream Jewish Law, i.e. the Shulchan Aruch, Chabad, in particular, has its own sectarian code (Shulchan Aruch ha-rav).

and @Levi, does anyone use the kitzur, really, for serious stuff? My indoctrination to it was "The kitzur takes the worst opinions of the SA, and prints them, without discussion."

[just hate!?]

Shmarya is the minchas elezar vol. 1 ch 68(munkatch) recognized as halacha??is the minchas yitzchok (dayan Weiss)vol 8 ch 53 a halachick authority??

[Shmarya]

Shmarya is the minchas elezar vol. 1 ch 68(munkatch) recognized as halacha??is the minchas yitzchok (dayan Weiss)vol 8 ch 53 a halachick authority??

Posted by: just hate!? | August 28, 2011 at 06:01 PM

Are telling me these hasidic poskim allow people to pray to a dead tzaddik or to ask that tzaddik for specific things?

Because that isn't how I remember it.

[OMG]

Reminds me of the song
Someone is knocking at the door.
Somebody is ringing the bell.

[just hate!?]

and for you yosef ben matitya what about the gemara in brachoys 18 b taanis 23 b regarding Rav who went to his fathers grave and said father father people are bothering me....(probably people like yourself) look there.. educate yourself before sounding so very condescendingly ignorant!

[A. Yid]

Hey Shmaryah you never did answer this question I asked earlier how do you combine being a wannabe posek and a wannabee heretic who posts articles disputing exodus from Egypt on one hand and shares your halachik wisdom next day on the other hand?

[Wigmore]

Beseeching the dead or seeking to contact the dead is clearly forbidden in Jewish law.

I would appreciate some clarification of this. People pray at the graves of their relatives all the time. Is this forbidden under Halacha?

I have heard that the Satmar say that if you pray at the grave of a rebbe, you should ask the rebbe to plead your case to Hashem.

There is a difference, albeit slight, between these two practices and the Christian one of praying, e.g. to Mary or one of the saints.

Some thoughts would be appreciated.

Please take this message at face value. I am absolutely not trying to provoke anyone.

[OMG]

Posted by: A. Yid | August 28, 2011 at 06:17 PM

The answer to your question is very simple. A lawyer once challenged a judge, how can you judge my client if he is guilty of reckless driving, your honor never drove in his life? The Judge replied, I judge hookers too, but, I was never a hooker.

[Yosef ben Matitya]

The custom is to go to the cemetery on erev rosh hashana to prostate oneself on the graves of the tzadikim … to awaken the tzadikim … to intercede positively on our behalf on the Day of Judgment …
As they say, 'in your face!'

erev rosh hashana, is it? tzaddiqim in plural is it? not one considered dead maschiach in queens n.y, not all year round and not a destination for impressionable kids!

[Shmarya]

Beseeching the dead or seeking to contact the dead is clearly forbidden in Jewish law.

I would appreciate some clarification of this. People pray at the graves of their relatives all the time. Is this forbidden under Halacha?

I have heard that the Satmar say that if you pray at the grave of a rebbe, you should ask the rebbe to plead your case to Hashem.

There is a difference, albeit slight, between these two practices and the Christian one of praying, e.g. to Mary or one of the saints.

Some thoughts would be appreciated.

Please take this message at face value. I am absolutely not trying to provoke anyone.

Posted by: Wigmore | August 28, 2011 at 06:22 PM

What you're supposed to do is pray at the graves of tzaddikim because the gravesite is considered to be holy.

But you're not supposed to pray to the tzaddik or ask the tzaddik for anything.

You're supposed to pray to God in teh merit of the tzaddik who lies in front of you.

In the Ma'aneh Lashon, the wording is very precise, asking God to awaken the tzaddikm who have died, so they can pray to God for those who have come to pray at their graves.

I don't know where mine is, so I can't give you an exact quote or citation.

[Yosef ben Matitya]

it seems that often the names 'a yid', 'a jew', 'a simple yid' or 'a simple jew' are mere euphemisms to describe chabadniks and thereby convince the readers that they are normative jews from within the fold.

[seymour]

Posted by: A. Yid | August 28, 2011 at 06:17 PM

Maybe you forgot that reb meir would discuss halacha with an apekores

[Yosef ben Matitya]

just hate
'brachoys 18 b taanis 23 b'
do u learn halokhe from talmud aggadso?
Is that where u learned to hate too? just hate? to your feloju?

[Channeling Anna Nicole Smith]

To avoid the appearance that my visit was "Rebbe-centric" I also stop by the nearby matzeivos of his rebbetzin and other prominent Chabad personalities.

To avoid the appearance that my visit was "Rebbe-centric" I also stop by the nearby Southern Girls Soul Food for some BBQ chicken and ribs

[Bilaam's Donkey]

Abu Jihad Schneerson wrote "I have never understood why Judaism hasn't got a movement like the Salafis in Islam who prohibit8against other Muslims'opinion):praying at graves,astrology,superstition,amulets and the idea of tzaddikim's intercession without any compromise."

Judaism has two such movements. The Western Sephardic (i.e. S&P) Jews, and the Dor Daim Yemenites both shun superstition and Kabbalistic mumbo jumbo. Sadly, both groups are tiny.

[Adam Neira]

Yes this is a problem. Almost drifting into necromancy. Respect for the dead is important and places of burial must be approached a certain way. I think there are more Lubavitch who maintain that M.M.Schneerson is Moshiach than what I believe. Just recently I came across a site that showed a vacant big red chair of M.M.Schneerson with a huge photo behind him at a fundraising lunch for Jewish women in northern Paris. They were blatantly being exhorted to accept him as Moshiach.

Now it can only be one of three things...

Either the organisers are deluded or they know deep in their hearts that he is not Moshiach but use his legacy, teachings and image to make money of gullible people and further their power and control. They also may lock temselves into a certain frame of reference as a defence/coping mechanism. It is a psychological condition that some people desperate for a father figure will substitute a certain authority figure into their frame of reference and idealise this person as compensation for the lack of positive role modelling in early childhood. Again i have great respect for the work that the Lubavitch do but M.M.Schneerson was/is not Moshiach !

[Yosef ben Matitya]

and @Levi, does anyone use the kitzur, really, for serious stuff? My indoctrination to it was "The kitzur takes the worst opinions of the SA, and prints them, without discussion."

Very well put O of the CR. I want to add: What did the Kitzur say exactly?
Not what he reportedly, sort of, implied? Can we get a quotation?
Does the kitzur promote the idea of being obsessive compulsive at visiting one single grave in Queens to the exclusion of everybody else?
All year round i/o erev rosh hashana?
Does R' Ganzfried of the KSA recommend taking kids also to that place in Queens N.Y.?
Should a Cohen go?

[just hate!?]

yosef ben matitya have you ever heard of maaseh rav?let's put it this way what Rav did is certainly not a) the opposite of halacha and b)not on erev rosh hashanah.
while we're on that topic I suggest on erev rosh hashanah you go to "queens" and ask mechilah with serious tears for all the shameful remarks you've made ! do it for your(and our family's) own good.

[just hate!?]

shmarya are you going to look it up or just go by " how you remember it" and do similar to what you accuse others of doing?

[Levi]

Shmarya,

Let’s be intellectually honest over here.

You wrote in your original piece:
“Beseeching the dead or seeking to contact the dead is clearly forbidden in Jewish law. So is praying to the dead or requesting anything from the dead. That's why the Ben Ish Hai, the Sefardi rabbinic decisor of Jewish law from the late 1800s who often decides halakha based on the Zohar or on the Ari Zal, very clearly states that you cannot do these things when you visit graves of tzaddikim before the High Holidays. And that is the normative Ashkenazic halakha, as well.”

But we have to differentiate between:

A. Praying to someone with the intention that he/she will help you. And
B. Asking someone to pray to G-d on your behalf.

The former is not part of the Chabad belief and I challenge you to produce evidence to the contrary.

The latter is accepted in normative Judaism! as was pointed out from the kitzur shulchan aruch and from the maaneh lashon which you quote!!!
Maaneh lashon page 11 (kehos edition) two thirds down the page, states clearly TWO things
1 that G-d should answer my prayers in your (the tzadiks) merit.
2 that you (the tzadik) should pray to G-d on my behalf.

So beseeching the dead or contacting the dead or requesting anything from the dead (as long as its asking the dead to pray to G-d on your behalf, and not asking the dead to answer your prayers) is actually permitted and typical according to the kitzur and according to the maaneh lashon and others.

And you never did answer my point that the picture is actually of the door at the ohel. With the two links that I posted above.
Note, I couldn’t find a direct view on google, but the supportive evidence should be enough for those that wish to know the truth.
The first one is the view from the inside. Note the wooden door

The second one is the other entrance. Also a wooden door

Please explain how Im mistaken.

[Dave]

Levi, for what it's worth, one of my ancestors was Rav Abdullah Somekh, the teacher of the Ben Ish Hai.
I have read that the Rambam said that "we do not decide halacha based on aggada".
I am sure that we also do not decide halakha based on the Zohar or other mystical writings.

Friends, this praying at a very very slippery slope- praying at a tzaddik's grave to asking a tzaddik to pray for you to praying TO a tzaddik.

Adam, I am sadly not surprised. I have come to the conclusion that in Judaism, mysticism is equal-opportunity b.s. ie. both Sefardim and Ashkenazim have been infected by this stuff.
Unfortunately I think some "Chabadskers" have honed in on the mysticism of some North African Jews and (sadly) persuaded them to "go over to the dark side" of mysticism and Rebbe-worship.
My ex was Moroccan and I was shocked to see a photo of "the Rebbe" in her parents' home. Now I know why. It doesn't make it any better.

[Yosef ben Matitya]

just hate!?
הָסִרוּ אֶת-אֱלֹהֵי הַנֵּכָר, אֲשֶׁר בְּתֹכְכֶם, וְהִטַּהֲרוּ, וְהַחֲלִיפוּ שִׂמְלֹתֵיכֶם.
'Put away the strange gods that are among you, and purify yourselves, and change your garments;

[Wigmore]

Shmarya,

Thank you for your response.

[ronininja]

Why all the argument? It is wrong, plain and simple, anyone with a little bit of basic halakha knowledge knows this. Sorry but for those trying to argue in favor of this, I got bad news...you can't have it both ways.

‎

[nobody]

"do u learn halokhe from talmud aggadso?
Is that where u learned to hate too? just hate? to your feloju?

Posted by: Yosef ben Matitya | August 28, 2011 at 06:55 PM"

YbM, that human-skidmark aka the Satmerde ErevRebee Yokel did [learn halokhe from talmud aggadso] and sure knew how to hate, the ingrate douchebag, what was that ignorant scatology, 'theYokel Mishmash' (vaYoel Moshe) based upon?

[batyahgirl@yahoo.com]

Oy vey! Is that a photo of a FEMALE child on the cover? Shonda! Tzniut!

[Mark]

Hey!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

I also want the answer to the question that Shmarya doesn't want to face:

Hey Shmaryah you never did answer this question I asked earlier how do you combine being a wannabe posek and a wannabee heretic who posts articles disputing exodus from Egypt on one hand and shares your halachik wisdom next day on the other hand?

[tudris]

That is the door at the ohel. It is a nice wooden door. When you go there to beseech the Rebbe for his forgiveness (yes, that's how it says to do it in the Shulchan Aruch, especially before Yom Kippur, to to the dead man's grave and ask him to forgive you!!!!) you will see the wooden door. My door may be closed to you (but not locked), Scott, but the Rebbe's will always be open, even for you!

[Shmarya]

Posted by: Levi | August 28, 2011 at 09:29 PM

Please.

Your lies and your delusions are ridiculous.

Chabadniks regularly write to the DEAD Rebbe asking for brachot and answers to questions and help.

That is assur, forbidden, by any normative understanding of Jewish law.

Past that, at a grave of a tzaddik, one is supposed to pray to God and address God – NOT the tzaddik.

But you learned from the MMS, a man who was probably clinically insane and who regularly practiced communicating with the dead – something that is clearly forbidden.

When Rav Schach said Chabad is the closest religion to Judaism he was right, and people like you prove that every day.

[Dr. Dave]

A Yid and Mark:

Although from what I read of his opinions, Shmaraya is not an apikorus (heretic), perhaps the following story might help answer your questions.

A young fellow decides he wants to be an apikorus and wants to learn how to be one from the most famous apikorus in the land, Moshe the Apikorus.

He inquires after him and is told that Moshe the Apikorus can be found in a corner of the beit Medrash learning.

The fellow goes up to him and says: "Moshe, I want to be an Apikorus like you."

Moshe says: "Well then, you must be fully conversant with the entire Shas(talmud), Yerushalmi and Bavli with all the rishonim and acharonim."

"Uh, no" comes the reply.

"Well, you've know all the Mishnayos by heart and have learned all the Shulchan Aruch", Moshe states.

"Not, really", the young man responds

"Have you at least studied the entire Tanach (bible) with the miphorshim?"

The young man answers: "Can't say that I have.

Moshe sighs and says: "You're not an apikorus. You're an am ha'aretz".(You're not a heretic. You're an ignoramus).

Even if you beleive he is an apikorus, at least Shmarya is not an am ha'aretz .

But the two of you are.

[Shmarya]

Hey Shmaryah you never did answer this question I asked earlier how do you combine being a wannabe posek and a wannabee heretic who posts articles disputing exodus from Egypt on one hand and shares your halachik wisdom next day on the other hand?

Posted by: Mark | August 28, 2011 at 11:54 PM

I do it by being waaaaaaaay smarter than you.

[jack]

Why the nastiness,Shmarya?
I"m far from Chabad, but your personal animus against Chabad that sees demons behind any Chabad deed, and your downright nasty response to Levi, the Chabad poster who addressed you very civilly is very off-putting

[Lo Meshaneh]

To Hersh Man:
You are taking a big chance by writing out the Shem HaMeforash. You should write that as "G-dolim".

[Mark]

Hey Shmaryah you never did answer this question I asked earlier how do you combine being a wannabe posek and a wannabee heretic who posts articles disputing exodus from Egypt on one hand and shares your halachik wisdom next day on the other hand?

Posted by: Mark | August 28, 2011 at 11:54 PM

I do it by being waaaaaaaay smarter than you.

Actually, it's called being a hypocrite and phony. Sort of what you accuse everyone of being.

Funny how the pot calls the kettle black!

You have no cause. You sell out for ratings and clicks. You are very very average.

[Shmarya]

Why the nastiness,Shmarya?
I"m far from Chabad, but your personal animus against Chabad that sees demons behind any Chabad deed, and your downright nasty response to Levi, the Chabad poster who addressed you very civilly is very off-putting

Posted by: jack | August 29, 2011 at 01:05 AM

The answer is simple.

20 years ago, you would have been hard pressed to find an Orthodox Jew who openly asked a dead person to help him, to grant him a blessing, or to answer a question.

Today, there a tens of thousands of allegedly Orthodox Jews who do this openly and regularly.

Does this trouble you?

One of the 613 biblical mitzvot is "shelo lidrosh el ha maytim," do not ask the dead.

In normative lists of the 613 mitzvot it is Negative (i.e., thou shat nots) 174.

Interestingly, Negative #175 is do not prophesy in God's name anything which God has not told you.

Prophesy does not exist today.

Still, Chabad claimed (and many of them still claim) the Rebbe was a prophet. In fact, I think the Rebbe himself claimed to be saying some things as prophesy (he used the Hebrew word nevuah).

The Rebbe regularly 'consulted' with his dead father-in-law, fasting all day as he 'communed' with him at his grave.

That is where the Rebbe had his stroke.

He now buried there, as well, and now tens of thousands of Jews come there and ask him for blessings, answers to their questions, etc.

One could easily note the proximity of these two negative halakhot and, if theodicy moves you, see both a correlation and causation.

All I'll say is that we are prohibited from asking the dead questions or asking them for blessings, etc.

And this does not mean the Torah presumes inquiring of the dead doesn't work. Quite the contrary is true, the Torah presumes it DOES work – and then prohibits it anyway.

That means miracle stories about people writing to the dead Rebbe and getting answers in various ways, and other related Chabad things could, in theory, be true according to the Torah. But they would all still be prohibited anyway.

All we can legally do is ASK GOD to awaken the souls of the tzaddikim who lie buried before us so they can PRAY TO GOD, and ASK GOD to please hear our prayers in the merit of the tzaddikim who lie buried before us.

Anything more than that is not Judaism.

I would hope that if you car about Judaism and the monotheism that is its core, you too would be upset by the drivel Levi and other Chabadniks spout.

It's true that most of them have no real out-of-Chabad Jewish knowledge, and that they are probably like a tinok shnishba, a baby captured and raised by non-Jews – meaning their errors are not their fault.

And it is okay to treat them that way, as long as they are not doing things like publishing children's halakha books full of their non-Jewish theology or publicly defending the same.

The real owner of their errors in the Rebbe and those who enabled him, whether they enabled him out of belief in his errors; or because they wanted to keep peace between Jews and turned a blind eye to the Rebbe's errors as a result; or if they turned a blind eye because the Rebbe was one of the few hawks on Land for Peace among haredi leaders; or especially if they looked the other way because, like with Rabbi Baruch Lanner, his outreach (kiruv, even though the Rebbe didn't like the term) was too good to shut down.

But even so, when Chabad makes public its shtuss, it needs to be attacked.

And so is the case here.

[Mark]

Even when you have valid points, it's just impossible accepting them from you.

You are out for blood, period.

If you can pin it on halacha fine.

If not, also fine.

Perhaps it's time to start a real blog whose motivation is to heal. Then these issues can be brought up and we can take them seriously.

[Shmarya]

Actually, it's called being a hypocrite and phony. Sort of what you accuse everyone of being.

Funny how the pot calls the kettle black!

You have no cause. You sell out for ratings and clicks. You are very very average.

Posted by: Mark | August 29, 2011 at 01:44 AM
Shmarya

I realize you're not overly bright and that it's difficult for you to grasp some things, but do try to process:

A person cannot be a hypocrite if he is open about what he believes and how he implements those beliefs.

In this case, you've done nothing here to contribute in any way to the post or its discussion.

You clearly don't have the knowledge to do it.

But like your pattern on other posts, a lack of knowledge doesn't stop you from launching personal attacks against the messenger you hate.

It seems you're far too petty and far to limited to do anything else.

[Shmarya]

Even when you have valid points, it's just impossible accepting them from you.

Interesting.

You're supposed to be able to learn from every man. Its part of the Judaism you claim to practice.

But you can't do that, you won't do that, because learning from me and others like me makes you confront issues you can't handle.

So you fall back on personal attacks.

Do you want your kids to be writing letters to a dead tzaddik and expecting answers from him?

That's the question here.

If you have nothing to contribute regarding it, perhaps you should leave.

[Yissy-CA]

Posted by: Shmarya | August 29, 2011 at 01:54 AM

Consider adding this summary to the original post.

[Mark]

"You're supposed to be able to learn from every man."

Not from a Rasha. Which you are.

"Its part of the Judaism you claim to practice."

I never claimed anything.

I will not engage you because your motives are spiteful and evil.

You can kick me off. I don't care.

But be forewarned.

I have a year off to kill. Thousand of hours of free time.

And your blog is my "project" for the year.

I will be logging in again and again using tens of different names and emails.

I will occupy your days and nights.

I will water down your hateful blog to the point of irrelevance.

Oh what fun we will have together!!

On your mark, get set....

GO!

(I don't sleep much either:)

[Shmarya]

What a little coward you are.

You want to play?

By the time I'm done with you you'll be paying me a lot of money as damages for your illegal behavior.

And a little halakhic note for you: When it says learn from every man, it means every man. The paradigm for this is Rabbi Meir running after Acher's horse so he could learn from Acher.

As I've noted previously, you clearly lack the knowledge to participate intelligently in many discussions here.

And you also lack the desire to learn.

Now be ready for the day, little man, when the process server knocks at your door.

[Mark]

You don't want to play??

But it will be such fun!!

I use public computers and free wireless all across the country.

You know, intellectually it would be simple to dance with you.

You are no genius, cutting, and pasting and adding predictable negative comments.

When ever you can't answer or dont feel like it, you just pen a put down. Arrogant and off-putting.

Not worth my time to "discuss" your "stories". Or anyone else.

Anyway...say goodbye to Mark!

And now....introducing.....

[Mark]

Oh, one more PS from "Mark".

As a punishment for threatening me, tomorrow I will be recruiting all my friends to join me in this project.

We'll call it "Failed Messiah Failed"

Catchy, no?

We all have time to kill and we so appreciate your work on behalf of the Jewish people!

Consider this our gift to you.

Toodles :)

[Shmarya]

And now....introducing.....

Posted by: Mark | August 29, 2011 at 03:35 AM

… what will certainly be a court appearance that will cost you dearly.

And again, let me note that you have not addressed the subject of this post because you can't. You don't know how to do it. You're not educated enough.

It bothers you that a "rasha" like me knows so much more than you do.

But instead of remedying that by making up your lost learning, you attack me personally.

And by the way, since you mentioned on another post that you know Rabbi Deyo and since you were defending him and Partners in Torah while leaving threats, a reasonable person might come to believe that Rabbi Deyo and Partners in Torah should be subpoenaed and perhaps named in the lawsuit against you.

I'm sure your friend will "appreciate" what you've done to "help" him.

[Shmarya]

Oh, one more PS from "Mark".

As a punishment for threatening me, tomorrow I will be recruiting all my friends to join me in this project.

We'll call it "Failed Messiah Failed"

Catchy, no?

We all have time to kill and we so appreciate your work on behalf of the Jewish people!

Consider this our gift to you.

Toodles :)

Posted by: Mark | August 29, 2011 at 03:46 AM

I hope your friends can afford it. They will be made to pay dearly as will you.

And, again, you have not been able to say one intelligent thing about the subject of this post because you're very ignorant.

But more than ignorant, you're a very sick person.

You're too hateful and too frightened to confront your failures and your community's failures, so threaten to do illegal things to hurt someone who is brave enough to tell the truth.

You're a coward, Mark. A sniveling, little coward.

And one day soon in a court of law, you will pay dearly for what you are threatening to do.

[Adam Neira]

To Mark,

There was a serial pest bloke in Australia known as Peter Hoare. He used to do anything for publicity yet had nothing productive to offer. He jumped on the track at the Melbourne Cup, paraded semi naked on Rod Laver Arena during the Australian Open Final and would hassle the police in the CBD of Melbourne for no apparent reason. The first couple of times people noticed and were curious. After awhile everyone got bored with his antics and he faded from view. He hasn't been heard of for years now.

Are you related to him ?

Also if you have the coglioni, which I doubt, please post your real name and which sect you and your mates are affiliated to.

If you have a point to make or defend debate it in a civil manner as is Jewish custom, i.e. The Talmudic discussions. If you are jealous of the attention FM is attracting start your own blog.

[Mark]

Oh,

And by the way I don't even live in the USofA so try to pursue me in a court of law in MY country!

[Shmarya]

Oh,

And by the way I don't even live in the USofA so try to pursue me in a court of law in MY country!

Posted by: Mark | August 29, 2011 at 06:49 AM

You're not very familiar with international law, apparently.

I'll find you, I'll find your friends, and I'll get you into court.

As I noted previously, your threats (and of course, carrying out those threats) is illegal.

Let be even clearer – illegal and criminal.

If the US Attorney's office decides it wants to pursue prosecuting you and your friends, you can be extradited or arrested when you enter the US of any of its territories.

Or your home country can choose to prosecute you, because what you've done is a crime in most countries.

Certainly, once you're hauled before a court on criminal charges, attaching a civil suit to destroy you and your friends financially will not be difficult.

All that applies if you really do live outside the US.

But I don't think you do.

And one day, there will be a knock at your door and your entire financial security and your future will slip away.

[Mark]

Heh heh heh....

Extradited for spamming a blog....

Heh heh lol lol!!!!!!!!!!!

Thanks for chiming in Mark #2!

Which country do we live in?

And she begins.....

[PrettyBoyFloyd]

Shmarya sounds nervous.

[rebeljew]

"But Chabad has never let halakha get in the way of their theology, which is becoming ever closer to Catholicism each day"

In the name of the father-in-law, the son-in-law and the Ohely ghosts.

[Shmarya]

Heh heh heh....

Extradited for spamming a blog....

Heh heh lol lol!!!!!!!!!!!

Thanks for chiming in Mark #2!

Which country do we live in?

And she begins.....

Posted by: Mark | August 29, 2011 at 09:28 AM

I suggest you speak with an attorney about your legal culpability.

You are threatening to commit a crime.

Each time you make that threat is a separate count.

Each time you or your friends attempt to spam another count.

Each different computer you use to spam or threaten to spam, each IP address, each false identity is a different count.

The government treats your type of threats much more seriously than it did 10 years ago, and it is far more apt to prosecute – and to show no mercy when it does.

And a day will come when you will find yourself, perhaps along with your friends, in a federal minimum or medium security facility.

Your life will be ruined.

And then you'll have to deal with the civil suit, which will cripple you financially.

You have committed a crime and you are threatening to commit more crimes.

And you will pay dearly for it.

[Uzi Ben Asher]

The U.S Attorney's gonna extradite "Mark" over a flame war? Shmarya, get real. Besides, I don't believe the U.S. Attorney's office gets involved in civil disputes.

"Mark" hasn't made any threats. He hasn't said he's gonna kick your butt, or blow your brains out. What he's said is he'll expose you as the vindictive petty man you are. But one doesn't need "Mark" for that. You're doing an excellent job of it yourself.

He hasn't said, "I know where you live," which in the context of how you said it, might be considered a physical threat. You, on the other hand, said that to him in another thread.

The same First Amendment that gives your the right to insult other bloggers here, to carry out a vendetta against the ultra-Orthodox (who in many cases deserve a little excrement thrown their way), also applies to Mark and all others who take you to task.

Grow up. You run a blog whose main purpose is to criticize others. Don't cry when some of your grenades get tossed back at you.

[Shmarya]

Posted by: Uzi Ben Asher | August 29, 2011 at 09:59 AM

Like I and others have said, you don't read well and you're not bright.

He's threatening to launch a spam campaign this site, which is a crime.

The First Amendment does not give him the right to do that. It does not protect criminal acts.

And what I wrote is clear, even if your addled brain can't understand it: I will pursue him, I will hunt him down and I will serve him.

My threat is to pursue legal action against him.

But it really isn't a threat, 'Uzi.' It's a promise.

And I keep my promises.

[Uzi Ben Asher]

Posting under different names isn't spam. Espcially on a blog where just about everyone uses Internet handles. Using a proxy server isn't spam.

If "Mark" sent multiple messages simultaneously under different names, that might be considered spam. But there are posters here who have done that, but since they tend to agree with you, you let them. In the event of a lawsuit, all this will be brought to light by the defense. As will be your attempts to intimidate other bloggers, who didn't spam your site.

All you're doing is enabling Mark and making yourself look silly in the process. If you ignore the guy he'll go away.

[Shmarya]

You don't understand the law or what Mark is threatening to do.

[Mark]

He won't. :)

[Mark]

I have decided not to spam you because you are such a mentch!

When you get lots random emails from new people with ridiculous comments, just assume you have become very popular:)

Nope, no spam from me.

No-sir-ee!

Friends?

[Ben Ish Hai on the topic]

Shmarya,

Back to the beginning of the post, I will quote you

"The minute you start asking the tzaddik for anything you've violated halakha."

Look now at the Ben Ish Hai (First Year, Nitzavim, 2):

It is possible to prostrate at the tzadik´s gravesite and say: I ask to the nefesh of the tzadik that it will pray to Hashem on my behalf for this and this...

In Hebrew

ויכול להשתטח על קבר הצדיק ויאמר הריני מבקש מנפש הצדיק הקבור פה שתתפלל עלי לפני הקב"ה כו"כ

Also, please see Daat u Tevuna 41...

Clearly, what the Ben Ish Hai said would be something. Thus, according to you, his view would be a violation of Halacha.

Of course, it does not give the right for anyone to pray for the tzadik in order that the tzadik would grant anything...
And, indeed there are those who will do it...

[Ben Ish Hai on the topic]

Shmarya,

Back to the beginning of the post, I will quote you

"The minute you start asking the tzaddik for anything you've violated halakha."

Look now at the Ben Ish Hai (First Year, Nitzavim, 2):

It is possible to prostrate at the tzadik´s gravesite and say: I ask to the nefesh of the tzadik that it will pray to Hashem on my behalf for this and this...

In Hebrew

ויכול להשתטח על קבר הצדיק ויאמר הריני מבקש מנפש הצדיק הקבור פה שתתפלל עלי לפני הקב"ה כו"כ

Also, please see Daat u Tevuna 41...

Clearly, what the Ben Ish Hai said would be something. Thus, according to you, his view would be a violation of Halacha.

Of course, it does not give the right for anyone to pray for the tzadik in order that the tzadik would grant anything...
And, indeed there are those who will do it...

[Shmarya Schmendrik]

One thing is for sure, no one but pigeons will visit Shmarya's grave!

[Shmarya]

Posted by: Ben Ish Hai on the topic | August 29, 2011 at 11:00 AM

You mistranslate the Hebrew and truncate the quote, which changes its meaning.

Here is how it should read; how his family understood it to read; how it was practiced in Baghdad, where he was Chief Rabbi and Av Beit Din; and how Iraqi and Syrian Jewish communities understand it today:

"It is customary to visit the cemetery on the day preceding Rosh Hashana, and to pray at the graves. However, you should *not* pray to the dead – instead, you should pray that God will give us grace in their merit. When praying at the grave of a tzaddik, you are allowed to *pray* [to GOD] that the soul of the tzaddik should pray for you for what you are requesting [of God]."

You can't pray to the dead according to the Ben Ish Hai. But you can pray to GOD that the soul of the tzaddik should be roused to pray for you.

In other words, my position is the position of the Ben Ish Hai – which is and has been the normative Jewish position for at least 1000 years.

[Marcus]

lol, I like this guy named Mark....this Shmaraya guy has crossed the line from critiquing ORthodox to hateful slander ages ago....time for a little LEGAL comeuppance

he can dish it out the L"H and inuendo, but he can't take it....

[Shmarya]

Please.

I take shit from idiots like you all the time. Anyone who reads this site knows that.

But what I will not tolerate are criminal threats.

Those I will pursue until I make the people who make those threats pay.

[Korbendallas72]

Dear Mark:

Bring it, bitch. Your idol-rebbe human power-god is the worst thing to happen to Judaism since Yashke. Worse even, there was no Internet when Yashke was alive. In the name of Hashem will your idol rebbe fall. His name will be forgotten.

[SimanTov]

Shmarya I dont understand a word you have said..you make no sense! Why can't I pray at the Rebbes grave??????? All of the sudden it's wrong????

[A E ANDERSON]

So far as I can tell, it is established and long settled Jewish custom to visit and pray at the graves of the righteous (including prayer for intercession and guidance).

Yes, it gets theologically (and halachically) problematic when one considers that many of the simple folk who visit these holy places are praying not directly to God, but are instead trying to invoke the intercession of the deceased with God.

This, however, is a critique that must be levelled at all Hasidim, all Separadim, all 'Adot Bnei haMizrach, and all others who visit holy places and leave "petakim" and "tsetles."

It offends my Scholastic sense of rationalism and Maimonidean preeminence that it is customary to engage in superstitious practices such as these. But eminences such as R. Joseph Karo, the Rema, and those standing on their shoulders seem to accept this as an honoured Jewish practice of high repute, and have enshrined it in the Shulchan 'Arukh, albeit in passing dicta.

Indeed, there may well be an irreparable disconnect between Rational Judaism and the folk and mystic practices of the Jewish people. I think anybody who has learned gemara, midrash, even Tanach, with a literary critic's or historian's eye has detected this disconnect, the ongoing battle among the rational, the folk and the mystic in Judaism.

In this regard, Chabad is clearly mainstream, "normative Judaism," to quote the now-famous Rabi Yehudah "Yudel" Krinsky, who has been named for two years running as America's leading rabbi.

Put that in your pipe and smoke it!

[Levi]

Shmarya

You still didn’t respond to the 'which door is in the picture' issue!

Is it photoshoped of the Rebbes office at 770 (as you say)
Or is it indeed the door to the Ohel???

There is a saying in the Talmud: Shtika Kehoda'ah?!?
Does that apply here?

[Shmarya]

Not having been there in 16 years, I'll defer to those who say it is the door in the Ohel – but made to look like the door of the Rebbe's office in 770.

The point of the post, however, is not which door it is.

The point is that it is absolutely assur to ask a dead person for help, advice, etc. – yet Chabadniks do this every day.

[Shmarya]

It offends my Scholastic sense of rationalism and Maimonidean preeminence that it is customary to engage in superstitious practices such as these. But eminences such as R. Joseph Karo, the Rema, and those standing on their shoulders seem to accept this as an honoured Jewish practice of high repute, and have enshrined it in the Shulchan 'Arukh, albeit in passing dicta.

Absolutely false.

None of those sources allows praying to a dead person or asking a dead person for advice or help.

As the Ben Ish Hai clearly explains (as I noted above): "It is customary to visit the cemetery on the day preceding Rosh Hashana, and to pray at the graves. However, you should *not* pray to the dead – instead, you should pray that God will give us grace in their merit. When praying at the grave of a tzaddik, you are allowed to *pray* [to GOD] that the soul of the tzaddik should pray for you for what you are requesting [of God]."

You can't pray to the dead according to the Ben Ish Hai. But you can pray to GOD that the soul of the tzaddik should be roused to pray for you.

The Rema and Yosef Karo say no different.