More Proof The Lubavitcher Rebbe Was Wrong?

It sure seems that way. An engraved stone found in a network of tunnels under the Old City of Jerusalem shows a menorah that looks nothing like the 'authentic' menorah Chabad's rebbe, Menachem Mendel Schneerson, claimed was the true, correct menorah.

I've done many posts on this issue before (most linked at the bottom of this post – read them before you comment), noting that all ancient depictions of the menorah – even those linked to kohanim, priests, who served in the Temple and saw it, look nothing like the Lubavitcher Rebbe's drawing and his claims.

(Click on the links I posted below and you'll see many pictures of these depictions and finds, along with much more information.)

What the Rebbe did is base his fantasy on a clear misreading of the Rambam, whose own drawing is a schematic, not a literal representation of the menorah.

The Rebbe incorrectly understood the Rambam's drawing as literal.

Even so, the Rambam lived 1000 years after the Temple was destroyed, and he did not have the advantage of the many archaeological finds we have today – and that the Rebbe ignored.

Here's an article about the most recent finds followed by links to some of my previous posts on this issue – posts that show 7 branched menorahs, NONE of them looking anything like the Lubavitcher Rebbe's claim:

Glimpse of ancient war in Jerusalem tunnel
Archaeologists present Roman legionnaire's sword and sheath believed to date back to around 70 A.D., when Rome put down Jewish revolt
Associated Press

Archaeologists say artifacts discovered in an ancient drainage tunnel under Jerusalem are left over from war 2,000 years ago.

On Monday archaeologists presented a Roman legionnaire's sword and sheath found in the tunnel late last month. They believe it dates to around 70 A.D., when Rome put down a Jewish revolt, razing the second biblical Jewish Temple and much of the city.

Accounts of the battle say Jewish rebels fled to tunnels in a futile attempt to escape the Romans.

Israel Antiquities Authority archaeologist Eli Shukron says diggers also found clay lamps, pots, and a bronze key. He thinks rebels left many of those items.

The newly excavated tunnel is part of a growing network of subterranean passages under the city.

Update 12:19 pm CDT – I'm adding one of the many posts on the menorah and the Rebbe's error here because too many readers – primarily Chabadniks – seem to have difficulty following the links posted at bottom.

From September 11, 2009:

Ancient Synagogue Found: Among Oldest In World, It May Reveal Secret Lost For 2,000 Years

What secret does this ancient relic hold for today's Jews, especially today's Chabad Jews?

 

One of the Oldest Synagogues in the World was Exposed in the Israel Antiquities Authority Excavation

A synagogue from the Second Temple period (50 BCE-100 CE) was exposed in archaeological excavations the Israel Antiquities Authority is conducting at a site slated for the construction of a hotel on Migdal beach, in an area owned by the Ark New Gate Company. In the middle of the synagogue is a stone that is engraved with a seven-branched menorah (candelabrum), the likes of which have never been seen. The excavations were directed by archaeologists Dina Avshalom-Gorni and Arfan Najar of the Israel Antiquities Authority.

 

The main hall of synagogue is c. 120 square meters in area and its stone benches, which served as seats for the worshippers, were built up against the walls of the hall. Its floor was made of mosaic and its walls were treated with colored plaster (frescos). A square stone, the top and four sides of which are adorned with reliefs, was discovered in the hall. The stone is engraved with a seven-branched menorah set atop a pedestal with a triangular base, which is flanked on either side by an amphora (jars).

 

According to the excavation director, Dina Avshalom-Gorni of the Israel Antiquities Authority, “We are dealing with an exciting and unique find. This is the first time that a menorah decoration has been discovered from the days when the SecondTemple was still standing. This is the first menorah to be discovered in a Jewish context and that dates to the Second Temple period/beginning of the Early Roman period. We can assume that the engraving that appears on the stone, which the Israel Antiquities Authority uncovered, was done by an artist who saw the seven-branched menorah with his own eyes in the Temple in Jerusalem. The synagogue that was uncovered joins just six other synagogues in the world that are known to date to the SecondTemple period”.…

 

The synagogue holds the secret of the Temple Menorah.

 

What did it look like?

 

Does it look like the menorah on the Arch of Titus which depicts the aftermath of the Destruction of the Second Temple?

 

 

 

 

Or does it look like the Rambam's understanding of the menorah?

 

 

Or does it look like the late Chabad-Lubavitch Rebbe's understanding of the Rambam's version of the menorah?

 

 

Or does it look like the menorah on the Hasmonean coin?

 

 

Which menorah does the one found carved in this 2nd Temple-era synagogue resemble?

 

As you can see, the menorah looks a lot like the menorah in the Hasmonean coin:

 

 

 

 

The feet of the menorah from this newly-discovered synagogue are almost identical to the feet of the menorah on the Hasmonean coin. But the synagogue menorah is resting on a square base, and the coin's menorah is not.

 

I think this answers the question raised about the menorah on the Arch of Titus.

 

That menorah has what appears to be a double six sided base, one base resting on top of the other and then the menorah on top of that.

 

If you look closely at both the coin and the synagogue menorahs you can see that the depiction of the feet shows that the menorah had six or eight feet: 

 

1 or 2 pointing left
1 or 2 pointing right
2 pointing forward
2 (unseen) pointing back.

 

Here is what is think took place:

 

The Temple menorah was placed in the Temple on a square base of gold. This may have been an addition during Herod's rule, or it may have been added during the original rebuilding of the Temple after the return of some Jews from Babylonian captivity.

 

Because Hasmonean coins don't show the base, I think it is likely the base was an addition during Herod's time, but it is also possible the hasmoneans – who were kohanim, priests, and who served in the Temple and clearly saw the menorah up close – viewed the base as added decoration, and therefore saw its historical and religious value as being much less than the menorah itself. That could be an alternative explanation for why the base is not depicted on their coins.

 

When the menorah was captured by Titus, it may have been permanently joined to the base or it may have been joined to it with a temporary or semi-permanent join. I believe the latter is more likely because permanently joining the two objects would, in effect, change the biblically-mandated design, something that I find unlikely.

 

That menorah and its base were taken to Rome by Titus, carried by Jews captured in Judea when the Temple was sacked and destroyed.

 

In order to keep the menorah safely together with its base – which may have been viewed by Titus as more impressive and/or by the Jews as being necessary for the honor of the holy objects – the menorah and base were joined together, perhaps by fusing them with gold melted down from other Temple objects or from the Temple treasury. This fusion may have been viewed by the Jews as temporary and therefore permissible and, under the circumstances, desirable. 

 

When the menorah got to Rome, the artist whose sketches (or whose memories) were used as the basis for the Arch of Titus would have seen the six or eight feet of the menorah fused by this additional gold to the base, which could have given this structure a look similar to the structure of what we see depicted on the Arch of Titus.

 

I think this might answer the question of the shape of the base of the menorah in the Arch of Titus.

 

I also believe this find shows clearly that the Rambam's understanding of the menorah's shape is incorrect, as is the late Lubavitcher Rebbe's.

Extensive Proof The Lubavitcher Rebbe Was Wrong:

Ancient Synagogue Found: Among Oldest In World, It May Reveal Secret Lost For 2,000 Years – And Prove The Rebbe Wrong.

The Little Menorah That Didn’t.

The Little Menorah That Didn’t, #2.

The Rebbe And The Menorah.

The Rebbe And The Menorah, 2.

An Early Hanukka Present: The Rebbe and the Menora.

[Hat Tip: Dus Iz Nies.]

Comments

[Anon]

I've never seen a menorah with 5 branches. I'm not sure we can rely on this as proof.

[Shmarya]

I've never seen a menorah with 5 branches. I'm not sure we can rely on this as proof.

Posted by: Anon | August 08, 2011 at 11:43 AM

Try clicking the links I posted at the bottom of my post.

Then decide what you can rely on or not.

[seymour]

I've never seen a menorah with 5 branches. I'm not sure we can rely on this as proof.

Posted by: Anon | August 08, 2011 at 11:43 AM

because you did not live or where not alive 2000 years ago.

and that is the point

[Turd Degree]

Well, I guess no one's perfect, so let's be grateful that he was right about his messianic status.

[sammydavisjrjr]

The "menorah" displayed in the image has only 5 tubes, while the temple menorah had 7. Not every depiction of a candelabra refers to that of the Jerusalem temple. People used candelabras ("menorahs") in daily life to light private and public spaces. The depictions you see carved in stones can be of various types of menorahs used for various purposes including in the temple - separate from the main menorah - used to light other areas like the Ezrat Nashim.

[Shmarya]

The "menorah" displayed in the image has only 5 tubes, while the temple menorah had 7. Not every depiction of a candelabra refers to that of the Jerusalem temple. People used candelabras ("menorahs") in daily life to light private and public spaces. The depictions you see carved in stones can be of various types of menorahs used for various purposes including in the temple - separate from the main menorah - used to light other areas like the Ezrat Nashim.

Posted by: sammydavisjrjr | August 08, 2011 at 12:06 PM

Sigh.

I guess you aren't smart enough to follow the links clearly marked at the bottom of the post and clearly mentioned in the middle of the post.

Learn how to use your mouse.

[jack]

You call this crude drawing "proof"??
It's not "proof" either way.

[Shmarya]

You call this crude drawing "proof"??
It's not "proof" either way.

Posted by: jack | August 08, 2011 at 12:16 PM

Again, if you're not bright enough to follow the links in my post (or to read the update to my post) then do not comment.

Stupidity is not a virtue.

[BK]

"What the Rebbe did is base his fantasy on a clear misreading of the Rambam,"

I don't understand why you must be so disrespectful. You can disagree with the Rebbe's opinion, but it's not necessary to be so belittling.

[Shmarya]

I don't understand why you must be so disrespectful. You can disagree with the Rebbe's opinion, but it's not necessary to be so belittling.

Posted by: BK | August 08, 2011 at 12:22 PM

The Rebbe claimed everyone else was wrong. Only he and the Rambam were right.

And his methodology was pathetically flawed, so obviously so that most non-Chabad rabbis completely rejected it.

It was the Rebbe's fantasy – he ignored all reality to 'prove' it 'true.'

[adam hasheni]

These drawings were put there as a test of our faith. Kinda like dinosaur bones.

[R. Wisler]

BK

One who sets himself up a the object of idolatry is not worthy of respect. The evil man Schneerson deserves to be ridiculed and belittled because his actions, done with full warning against them (during his life, Torah scholars warned him about his idol-worshipping sect), were worthy of disrespect.

[Office of the Chief Rabbi]

Maybe the Kohanim from the Beis HaMikdash got it wrong, and Smilin' Wavin' Mendy got it right since He got the Word from God.

[maven]

Clearly the people living at the time of the beit hamikdash were not frum, and didn't know how to properly teitch up a rambam, because the temple was destroyed. so there.

[BK]

The Rebbe claimed everyone else was wrong. Only he and the Rambam were right.

But he did it respectfully, not condescendingly.

[Shmarya]

But he did it respectfully, not condescendingly.

Posted by: BK | August 08, 2011 at 01:09 PM

He did so by avoiding, ignoring or using sheer fantasy to wish away the reams of evidence against him.

And you should know the Rebbe was far from respectful when anyone disagreed with him – much more so than you think I am.

[Garnel Ironheart]

First of all, using the Arch of Titus to prove whether the menorah had straight or curved branches is useless. There is no proof the menorah in the picture is the main one from the Temple and not just something looted from elsewhere in the city.
Also, there is a question of historical accuracy as there is clearly a television camera being hoisted to the right of the menorah. What gives?
Third, you yourself repeatedly use phrases along the lines of "I think" or "It seems to me" which, sorry to say it, aren't the most academically reassuring.
Far better to review the primary sources from the Midrash and Gemara, some of which were recorded in Temple times. Most of them state the menorah had curved branches. The Rebbe, in going with the straight branch theory, is ignoring those Chazal statements.

[Barry]

Maybe there Is a reason this stone ended up In The sewer

[Shmarya]

Posted by: Garnel Ironheart | August 08, 2011 at 01:21 PM

Let me make this clearer for you:

EVERY ancient depiction of the Temple menorah – even those owned by Kohanim at the time of the Temple – have curved branches. EVERY ONE.

[BK]

"And you should know the Rebbe was far from respectful when anyone disagreed with him"

Shmarya, can you provide me evidence of this? I am aware of a video where he was challenged on an issue and spoke sharply, and then mentioned that some might find his words sharp. But I am not aware of anything else.

[Shmarya]

Maybe there Is a reason this stone ended up In The sewer

Posted by: Barry | August 08, 2011 at 01:21 PM

And what about the dozens of other curved branch menorahs from that era not found in sewers?

Of course, you can't answer that.

[Leah]

The top picture is the correct one since my candelabra also has 5 branches. The eerie thing about the top photo is that it looks just like the drawing my granddaughter drew!

[Shmarya]

Shmarya, can you provide me evidence of this? I am aware of a video where he was challenged on an issue and spoke sharply, and then mentioned that some might find his words sharp. But I am not aware of anything else.

Posted by: BK | August 08, 2011 at 01:27 PM

Here are two. You can count his letter to me as three. And there are others, as well:

http://failedmessiah.typepad.com/failed_messiahcom/2005/08/the_legacy_of_m.html

[BK]

Shmarya,

I read your first link with the two stories. While the stories are disturbing, I'd prefer if you could provide this evidence from a neutral source.

The bottom link that you provided was cut off and doesn't work. Please give it to me again.

[R. Wisler]

Gamal wrote...

Far better to review the primary sources from the Midrash and Gemara, some of which were recorded in Temple times.

I ask...
Where do you get that the Midrash'im or Gemara are "primary sources"? These documents weren't even STARTED until about 150 years after the Temple was destroyed. St. Justin the Martyr (a Christian apologist) was more ancient than the Midrash, Mishna, Talmud etc. So were the authors of the New Testament. So why do you assign "factuality" to documents that were not written at the time when the Temple stood? The authors of these documents could have been making the whole thing up.

The only "primary" sources I know from that period would be Josephus or Philo and the coinage from that period.

[Shmarya]

Shmarya,

I read your first link with the two stories. While the stories are disturbing, I'd prefer if you could provide this evidence from a neutral source.

The bottom link that you provided was cut off and doesn't work. Please give it to me again.

Posted by: BK | August 08, 2011 at 01:45 PM

I don't care what you "prefer."

What you're implying is that I made up the stories – but I didn't.

You can read about what happened ot Rabbi Rivkin in the Yiddish Forward or most of the other Yiddish press, who covered the incident.

The bochur beating up the Rebbe's sister-in-law is very public information, as are the Rebbe's talks.

Look it all up.

The bottom link is the same as the embedded link.

[jack]

Why the extreme negativity?
This artifact does not prove anything since it is quite a crude picture and difficult to see if it's supposed to be rounded or not.Besides for us not knowing what the anonymous drawer is depicting.
Why call someone "stupid" because they disagree?

[seymour]

Far better to review the primary sources from the Midrash and Gemara, some of which were recorded in Temple times. Most of them state the menorah had curved branches. The Rebbe, in going with the straight branch theory, is ignoring those Chazal statements.

Posted by: Garnel Ironheart | August 08, 2011 at 01:21 PM

I think you are off by a few hundred years

the Talmud is no way a primary source not even close.

they are not facts just because it fits you believe system

and R. Wisler is correct

The only "primary" sources I know from that period would be Josephus or Philo and the coinage from that period.

[Aleksandr Sigalov]

Where do you get that the Midrash'im or Gemara are "primary sources"? These documents weren't even STARTED until about 150 years after the Temple was destroyed. St. Justin the Martyr (a Christian apologist) was more ancient than the Midrash, Mishna, Talmud etc. So were the authors of the New Testament. So why do you assign "factuality" to documents that were not written at the time when the Temple stood? The authors of these documents could have been making the whole thing up.

This is because he and other OJs BELIVE that this is the so-called "oral torah" and thus put it on par with the actual Torah (the Law of Moses). So no wonder suprise that they prefer menorah with straight branches. I'm surprised that they do not prefer the one with squared branches - it would look so much more ridiculous ;)

Also, most Jews (particularly secular), in part thanks to Chabad, do not even know that there is a big difference between the "chanukiah" and the "menorah", so most of them think that the menorah has 9 branches - not 7. This is very sad...

[Shmarya]

Why the extreme negativity?
This artifact does not prove anything since it is quite a crude picture and difficult to see if it's supposed to be rounded or not.Besides for us not knowing what the anonymous drawer is depicting.
Why call someone "stupid" because they disagree?

Posted by: jack | August 08, 2011 at 02:01 PM
seymour

Some who ignores the facts and instead offers an opinion that is nonsensical rarely deserves respect.

[Shmarya]

Put more clearly – if you're not bright enough to follow the links, you lose your legitimate place at the table.

[R. Wisler]

The coinage shown on the Menorah Wikipedia page (which IS a primary source) shows the Menorah with curved branches. They also mention that Rashi held like Maimonides.

[Shmarya]

They also mention that Rashi held like Maimonides.

Posted by: R. Wisler | August 08, 2011 at 02:16 PM

If I remember correctly, that's one understanding of Rashi, but there are others.

[critical_minyan]

the question is not whether or not the rebbe was correct. the question is whether or not we should believe even if we know 100% he is wrong.
i know for a fact that he was wrong 95% of the time, but i believe he had a special power that makes wrong things right.

[seymour]

it really does not a difference what the rambam said rashi or whoever.

simply they where not confronted
with today archaeological digs.

they where not as arrogant as todays rebbies and just would not ignore such evidence.

really one must think what would the rambam or rashi do and say if faced with this evidence

[Motti]

how do we know they used oil. maybe they used pig fat??

[Kogan]

I actually think that this picture is a sort of a morph between curved and straight Menorah, which I thought was interesting. But for shmarya it was another opportunity to attack the Rebbe. It is hard to understand the kind of hatred that shmarya has for the Rebbe.

It is beyond criticism, it is venomous hatred.

[Shmarya]

I actually think that this picture is a sort of a morph between curved and straight Menorah, which I thought was interesting. But for shmarya it was another opportunity to attack the Rebbe. It is hard to understand the kind of hatred that shmarya has for the Rebbe.

It is beyond criticism, it is venomous hatred.

Posted by: Kogan | August 08, 2011 at 03:01 PM

Translation: The facts prove the Rebbe was wrong. Shmarya posted those facts. Shmarya therefore is an illogical person with venomous hatred of the "tzaddik"– who was clearly and evidently wrong. But because in Chabad theology a tzaddik can never be wrong, that would mean the Rebbe was not a tzaddik. And that's even a bigger problem for Chabad because every Chabad rebbe by Chabad's definition is the supreme tzaddik of that generation. So Shmarya is a very bad man, because Shmarya wrote the truth.

[seymour]

Posted by: Kogan | August 08, 2011 at 03:01 PM

what hatred he just is saying the rebbie was wrong

big deal he was not god and I am sure was wrong on many issues

[BK]

I don't care what you "prefer."

What you're implying is that I made up the stories – but I didn't.

You can read about what happened ot Rabbi Rivkin in the Yiddish Forward or most of the other Yiddish press, who covered the incident.

No, I don't think you made up the stories. But I'm sure you'd agree that it's important to list the sources, which you failed to do in the original post. And primary sources are must stronger than secondary. Important nuances can be lost when reading secondary sources, as I've pointed out to you in the past.

In any case, thanks for providing the sources. And if you have a moment, please provide me with a link to the Rebbe's letter to you. I read your 'About Me' section, but there is no link in it.

[Mr. justathought]

Shmaraya, I don't understand. You organize a well run web site, you're on top of the latest news and goings on in the Jewish community world wide and you're obviously very intelligent. Then as soon as someone disagrees with you your response is on the level of a four year old. Its completely unbecoming, detracts from your success, reflects poorly on your personal reputation and its really rude. Whatever your issue is with the Rebbe is no reason to call people names and act like a child. Its inconsistent with your entire presentation. Maybe take a breath and consider your approach. Thank you for considering my advice.

[satmarrebbe]

BK must be a chabad troll

[Shmarya]

And if you have a moment, please provide me with a link to the Rebbe's letter to you. I read your 'About Me' section, but there is no link in it.

Posted by: BK | August 08, 2011 at 03:22 PM

Here:

http://failedmessiah.typepad.com/failed_messiahcom/2004/09/the_rebbes_lett.html

[Anon]

Try clicking the links I posted at the bottom of my post.

Then decide what you can rely on or not.

I was responding to your present post.

Your older posts on the subject were more persuasive.

This one didn't do anything for your cause.

A five branched menorah?

[Shmarya]

Posted by: Mr. justathought | August 08, 2011 at 03:30 PM
satmarrebbe

I'm responding to trolls who can't or won't follow simple links or actually read the data posted.

I don't think they deserve kind treatment.

[Shmarya]

I was responding to your present post.

Your older posts on the subject were more persuasive.

This one didn't do anything for your cause.

A five branched menorah?

Posted by: Anon | August 08, 2011 at 03:58 PM

The point is, those branches are curved.

And the person who made it may have been forced to stop his work before completion.

[Dusiznies.blogspot.com]

Just want to add my two cents.....
if you look at all the initial printings of the Artscroll English/Hebrew Chamashim you will see that the menorah illustration in Parshas Terumah has curved arms, you will also notice that the "Luchos" imprint on the front cover has the top of the Luchos, curved.....
in all the later printings, Artscroll changed the illustration of the menorah to the Chabad Menorah with straight arms, and the luchos imprint on the front cover ,with the top straight...
So you will wonder..what happened?
Did Artscroll suddenly learn something about the menorah that changed their view on how the menorah actually looked like?
Here is the truth and nothing but the truth...
When Artscroll first came out with their Hebrew/English Chamashim, Chabad noticed that there wern't any commentaries in the English from any Lubavitcher Rabbies, so they threatened to boycott the Chumash... Artscroll panicked, because that meant millions of dollars of business... So Artscroll compromised and put the Chabad version of the Menorah in the Chumash and changed the illustration of the Luchus (another Chabad complaint). Zturned out that Artscroll got their proverbial asses' kicked anyway when the Gutnick Chumash came out .

[esther]

the truth is: the rebbe was a terrible artist and that was the only menora he could draw without too much embarassment.

[BK]

Shmarya,

I read the letters.

Do you think you were respectful by writing: "I write the Rebbe Shlita with very little expectation of receiving an answer, for I and others have come to believe that the Rebbe Shlita and Lubavitch have no intention of answering these questions." ?

I don't think this was respectful of you at all.

The Rebbe responded to you with the tone that you set.

[Shmarya]

Posted by: BK | August 08, 2011 at 04:35 PM

Well then, do try to process:

1. There was other, unanswered, contact before that plus a series of lies from the Rebbe's secretariat to people doing rescues.

2. People died because the Rebbe was a jerk.

3. I wrote him about pekuakh nefesh, and he worried about was his outsized ego.

Got that?

[Shmarya]

And I should make clear that in the post you claim to have read, I talk about my earlier letter to the Rebbe, which is overly polite and even fawning. He didn't answer that.

Pekuakh nefesh and he didn't answer and tried to lie his way out of that.

[Dusiznies.blogspot.com]

Just another tidbit.... it is alot more difficult to carve a "U" in stone than a "V" ...So if the Bais hamikdash Menorah was in the shape of a "V" as Chabad proposes then why in the world would the stone carver want to carve the "U"????
The stone found days ago depicts the difficulty the stone carver had carving the Menorah as he saw it ...the "U" , he apparently had a hard time with it... so if the Menorah was in the shape of the "V" ...why carve the "U"?
http://dusiznies.blogspot.com/2011/08/2000-year-old-menorah-carved-in-stone.html

[Abu Jihad Schneerson]

an other shining example of the rebbe's correct faith in pure Judaism can be found here:

http://www.chabad.org/library/article_cdo/aid/1578762/jewish/Is-Palmistry-Witchcraft.htm

[ronininja]

"And you should know the Rebbe was far from respectful when anyone disagreed with him – much more so than you think I am."

So that's who you learned it from!!! Mystery solved.

And yes, the historic evidence is in favor of menorahs with curved arms. Whoever can't see this is either an idiot or blinder than Stevie Wonder.

Wow Shmarya, we agree!

[seymour]

Posted by: Dusiznies.blogspot.com | August 08, 2011 at 04:49 PM

are you from mars

asking a question based on logic on religious believes?

The reason they made it rounded instead of a V is simple they did not want to replicate the holy object exactly so they distorted it and made it rounded

I am surprised FM did not get either only the rebbie got it

[PishPosh]

Since the Arch of Titus was done after Titus death by his brother Domitian it seems that the base with its figures of a dragon and 2 Roman eagles was something attached after Titus death.
Im betting that when the got the Menorah to Rome, they first figured its leg stand was too precarious, so they cut off the menorahs legs and then soddered it into the base you see on the Arch to give it weight and balance and added the Roman symbols as a way of saying that they had won the war. It was a stamp of victory

The Arch Artist probably never saw the original, or maybe he did but was obliged to carve what he saw in the present the reworked model, and used that and the silver trumpets which could be used as is for blowing, for his model.

[Korbendallas72]

I'm pretty sure we're not supposed to show respect to any idol. Who was that guy that went around smashing them? Was he one of ours?

[mordecai]

The menorah issue is really a metaphor for many of the problems we Jews face. We have a penchant for analyzing every issue to death. I understand that the point of this article is that the Rebbe was wrong. G-d forbid a Tzaddick could be wrong.

In our focus upon these numerous micro-issues perhaps we miss the larger picture of the Golden Rule.

[seymour]

Posted by: mordecai | August 08, 2011 at 08:06 PM

yes and no

the problem is that some rebbies or many and many frummies will spend who knows how long and telling everybody that the menorah is a V instead on a circle and that is how it needs to done and in many other things that are really not that important to the mitzvha

does it really matter circle V Z U , make a menorah do the mizvha (if you believe in that, since there is really no record of that miracle and was only mentioned hundreds of years later) and who cares if it was round like V or a Z

today we are focusing on the rituals like that is of the utmost importance. It isn't and should not be and was not in the past. the ritual was a way to attain or a way to guide one to spirituality. another words it was a means to an end to a goal. (i did not say that one can find passages in tanach that state that clearly)

However in the last few hundred years the rituals the tradition have become end games in itself or a goal and must be done correctly to the minute detail and people have completely lost to whole reason for the ritual and forgot the whole end game

and that was never meant to be

[seymour]

when i read the comment by the rebbies followers who simply cannot even entertain the idea that the rebbie might have erred

it reminds me of the fonz

he could not say I was wrong

he would say I was wroooooonng

[ronininja]

@seymore..."in the last few hundred years the rituals the tradition have become end games in itself or a goal and must be done correctly to the minute detail and people have completely lost to whole reason for the ritual and forgot the whole end game"

You hit the nail on the head.

[mordecai]

Seymour:

I agree with your well-stated view. However I am not at all convinced that the penchant for rituals is a manifestation of the last few hundred years only.

Jesus, the apostles, and the early Christians commented upon the fulfillment of the mere requirements of the law without the spirit of the law being followed. (and by the way I am not a Christian nor particularly care what Jesus said about the Jews of which he was one). Clearly ritualistic practice was a heavy part of Judaism of the Roman era.

[seymour]

Posted by: mordecai | August 08, 2011 at 09:28 PM

true

but I now remember amos 5-6 which says if your are not good to the poor and do not do the right thing

1 ¶ I hate, I despise your feast days, and I will not smell in your solemn assemblies.
22 Though ye offer me burnt offerings and your meat offerings, I will not accept them; neither will I regard the peace offerings of your fat beasts. Is. 1.11-14

however that seems to be lost today by many of the frum and their leaders

and by the way I am not a Christian nor particularly care what Jesus said about the Jews of which he was one)

if he ever really existed there is no primary source about him and only 200 years later is he mentioned

[Adam Neira]

FM often brings up interesting issues. Things pop up on the zeitgeist radar screen and it is up to us to see what the message is. This is where the role of the Na'vi comes in.

Let's go to the original source. Forget all the other derivative texts. Exodus 25:31-40. Moses is instructed to throw gold into the fire and a certain divinely mandated pattern is revealed. A few points...

(1) I'll take the original engravings from the Arch of Titus/Second Temple period as the best representation of the menorah. I also like the design much better than the one suggested by Maimonides and M.M.Schneerson. None of the sages gets everything right.

(2) There is something else going on here as well. If the Rebbe's view of what the correct design of the menorah is wrong what other points of his philosophy, worldview and frame of reference are also wrong ? How does this relate to the State of Israel and the Jewish people ? What if G-d wants another view to prevail ? What if the whole of Lubavitcher is flawed at its roots and the organisation is actually delaying the Redemption ?

(3) The menorah story is also instructive because Moses trusted G-d completely and he was blessed with the correct design. Like with the prophets who glimpsed pieces of the divine jigsaw puzzle, Moses was given insights into divine truths. The question is : What if there is someone alive today with the same blessings and insights that need to be revealed to the Jewish people and humankind ? Shouldn't he be elevated to a position of leadership in the Jewish community ?

(4) Being Tisha B'Av the day that Jews have mourned for 1941 years the destruction of the Second Temple, the menorah also relates to the future Third Temple. I have it on good authority that it can be built before 2050. However forcing one of the Messianic imperatives before its time will prove counterproductive. The thing with this day as well is that it is possible to grieve and make space for hope to enter the picture at the same time. We cannot change the past but we can learn from the mistakes that led to all the misfortunes that have beset the Jewish people and humankind and try and work out a way forward.

[Adam Neira]

To Seymour,

I'm getting off topic here a little, but I am responding to your comments.

Jesus of Nazareth was a real person. He is one of the most important people to have lived. My intense research in 2002 proved to me that he did not fulfil the Messianic imperatives and thus he wasn’t the true messiah. If you read the New Testament you will see that it is a derivation and extension of the Tanach. Ditto the Koran. As one example of how the early Christian writers tried to bolster their claims after he died they tried to match the genealogy of Jesus into the, at that time, extremely well known family kept tradition that the messiah would come on the male line from King David via Solomon. They also explained away the prophecy of ushering in an age of world peace by saying that the sacrifice of his life would have redemptive powers in itself. To satisfy the “He must be alive” part of the messianic imperatives they said he had been resurrected and would return one day in a second coming. If a purely objective alien scholar was to land on Planet Earth and review the chronology of the two books they would say that Jesus’ messianic claims were not kosher. Another point is that many Christian sects are hanging on to the idea that he will return and solve all the problems. Such passivity and intellectual and spiritual escapism is not what G-d wants. The Christian groups that say he was a G-d himself are also descending into pagan idolatry. There are many other points I could raise to prove that he wasn’t Moshiach. And by the way, I have nothing against Christians. I know how it is possible to get agreement on fundamental divine truths with any person or group with at least a half sane mind.

[seymour]

Posted by: Adam Neira | August 08, 2011 at 10:20 PM

how do we know that he was real there is no primary sources that he really existed.

all we know about him is from the new testament that as written I believe about 200 years after his supposed death.

on the other stuff you wrote I know about some of that and some other things like if was the messiah there should be no wars anymore however since there are he cannot be messiah.

and I think it says that when the messiah comes it will be known to ail and since not all agree that Jesus was the messiah he cannot be the true messiah

[Rivka]

Clearly, Shamarya is a self-hating Jew.

I do not know anything about his background that would give him license to reduce someone like the Rebbe, who made such a monumental contribution to Jewish life, to a status no better than a common criminal.

But posts like this, along with the regular foul-mouthed gutter language often found here, are the reason I will not visit this site again.

I am a Jew, and deserve better that to read this garbage!

Have an easy fast!

[seymour]

Posted by: Rivka | August 08, 2011 at 11:20 PM

not all Jews agree that the Rebbe, made such a monumental contribution to Jewish life.

some would say he made a monumental error by created or starting a new form of Christianity

anyway pointing out that a rebbie made an error is not big deal

he was a human being don't you think? and human make mistakes?

[Korbendallas72]

Since we're discussing menorahs, who else made a monumental contribution to Judaism and then stepped over the line? What happened to them?

[Adam Neira]

To Rivka,

Before you hit and run you may want to read the following comments.

Pointing out that M.M.Schneerson got it wrong on the menorah thing is not saying he is a common criminal. Also I wonder if you would agree that G-d has a special spreadsheet on which he keeps the score of all the good and bad things people have done. He then makes sure that wisdom flows to the righteous.

BTW, FM is a bit like the bar scene out of Star Wars sometimes, but some interesting and important discussions take place here. But yes it may not always be suitable for fine ladies, so other spots may be more to your liking. FYI, I quite like women who are feminine, graceful, intelligent and strong yet with an ability to get their hands dirty and challenge themselves. The just passed away Nancy Wake comes to mind on this score. Prayers for her.

[Askan]

Ok! Yay! We have more proof chabad and it's rebbe is bullshit!
Now I for sure don't believe it.

[Yocheved]

Never ever speak this way about the Rebbe! sick souls!

[mordecai]

Never ever speak this way about the Rebbe! sick souls!

Posted by: Yocheved | August 09, 2011 at 05:05 AM

Yocheved,

The dumbest and most ignorant man in the world may comprise one drop of water in the vast ocean. The most holy man, the most righteous may constitute a million drops of water in the vast ocean. Yet a million drops is but a tiny part of that vast ocean.

The prohibition against IDOLATRY derives from the view that all mere humans (even the REBBE) were highly flawed individuals.

When sects of Judaism revolve about a culture of the Tzaddeck it morphs into every greater Tzaddecks. Among Chassidic group there is an unarticulated fight of : MY tzaddeck is better than your tzaddeck." The end result of this thought process is aggrandizing a supposed Tzaddeck to the level of messiah.

I respectfully invite your attention to Deuteronomy 4:39: "KNOW THEREFORE THIS DAY AND REFLECT IN THY HEART, THAT THE LORD IS G-D IN THE HEAVENS ABOVE AND THE EARTH BENEATH.

You will at once see that G-d made it in his wisdom and that he is the only one and there is no one beside him. The book of Job teaches the same thing when it says (19:26): "and from my flesh I shall behold G-d"

Even if I were to concede that the REBBE was the most righteous man to have ever existed, he would only be the million drops of water in a vast ocean -- just a man, flawed and frail.

[seymour]

Posted by: mordecai | August 09, 2011 at 06:34 AM

if I remeber coreclt

the Talmud asks why does the Torah mention that moses erred and that he was flawed, was he not the greatest of greatest.

I think the answer was, the Torah it teaching you a lesson nobody is perfect.

however today chasediem feel that their rebbie is greater than moses.

also to question is not a bad thing, even the great one moses had the balls to question god. If he could question god I do not see an issues with questioning a mere mortal, the rebbie

unless one thinks of the rebbie greater than a person almost like a god

another words Jesus, and yes he was resurrected just like Jesus I know this because he was seen by me, my dogs and cats, and my neighbor.

[Whyaich]

Everything you say about the rebbe cannot be accepted. You are emotionally involved as know from your story with the Rebbe. Sorry

[mordecai]

also to question is not a bad thing, even the great one moses had the balls to question god. If he could question god I do not see an issues with questioning a mere mortal, the rebbie
Posted by: seymour | August 09, 2011 at 10:18 AM

Good point. It appears tat Moses even almost argued wit G-d, not just questions. I wonder if any Lubavitch Hasid ever argued wit Dagon Schneerson.

[Shmarya]

I wonder if any Lubavitch Hasid ever argued wit Dagon Schneerson.

Posted by: mordecai | August 09, 2011 at 11:19 AM

I guess I did in a way. And when that became public and it was clear that the Rebbe lost that argument, Chabad attacked me and pushed me out.

[R. Wisler]

Rivka wrote:

Clearly, Shamarya is a self-hating Jew.

I reply:

No, Shmarya is a Jew who hates the evil and unrighteousness that has become the standard in Jewish leadership. Schneerson was one of many who has led people astray. That's why the Lubavitchers are divided (in some cases, leading to violence) between various sects. They are a product of Schneerson's self-aggrandizement and messiah-complex.

Not to give too much credit to Shmarya, but the Children of Israel have a very sad history of not listening to dissidents (e.g. Isaiah) who point out the sins of Israel in their generation. Shmarya is one of those dissidents.

It's not the non-Jews who persecute us, but the thuggery of our own leadership. Let the leaders (such as Twerski, Teitlebaum, Schechter, and Halberstam) humble themselves and stop shedding their crocodile tears, then heed the criticisms of people like Shmarya and Unorthodox Jew etc, and turn from evil to righteousness.

Rivka, you are unfortunately a deluded person and member of a filthy cult. Think, read, and reason with the intelligence that God gave you. Then start worshipping God instead of some evil demagogue (Schneerson).

[mordecai]

but the Children of Israel have a very sad history of not listening to dissidents (e.g. Isaiah) who point out the sins of Israel in their generation. Shmarya is one of those dissidents.
Posted by: R. Wisler | August 09, 2011 at 11:26 AM

JEREMIAH is another example of the failure to heed dissidents. I have pointed out in other posts that G-d does not choose the so-called Tzaddecks anyway. He chose, for instance, JEREMIAH a 21 year old timid boy--- not the so-called holy priests of that day.

[Whyaich]

Adam Beria this is not a dating scene

[Shmarya]

Everything you say about the rebbe cannot be accepted. You are emotionally involved as know from your story with the Rebbe. Sorry

Posted by: Whyaich | August 09, 2011 at 11:11 AM

What you really mean is that you have to reject the facts because the facts prove your rebbe wrong, and in your theology, a rebbe cannot be wrong – so therefore the Rebbe was not a real rebbe. And you can't stand that.

[mordecai]

I wonder if any Lubavitch Hasid ever argued wit Dagon Schneerson.

Posted by: mordecai | August 09, 2011 at 11:19 AM

I guess I did in a way. And when that became public and it was clear that the Rebbe lost that argument, Chabad attacked me and pushed me out.

Posted by: Shmarya | August 09, 2011 at 11:25 AM

SHMARYA:

Did you leave on your own volition or were you "pushed out." I always assumed you left on your own volition after the incident with regard to the Ethiopian Jews and the Rebbe's indifference of their plight?

I think many of the readers of this cite do not have a clear understanding of how that worked. The notion of internal religious discipline as to dissenters is alien to mainstream religions. Of course historically we know these things happened with regularity (excommunication, shunning, gentler forms of rebuke with the goal of bringing the "transgresor" back into the fold.)

You may not wish to discuss this matter but I am curious as to how the mechanism worked within CHABAD. I assume the REBBE had his hatchet men.

[ZIY]

Shamarya,

Dude, Chabad is using this very recent discovery a proof that THEY are right (that the branches were "alachson"):

http://www.col.org.il/חדשות_חבד_ערב_ט_באב_התגלה_בירושלים_חריטה_של_מנורת_בית_המקדש_63340.html

Go figure....

[yudel]

The real irony is that you actually think Shamarya's words are caustic. In fact they are mild. I guess you disdain our Prophets then and a load of Sages in the Talmud for their debates and use of words

. He is just stating the obvious.

You want history to change by PCing life and going with faking facts.

Take a deep breath. This is why we are in trouble. This is why Gd is doubly Hidden. This is also why Gd created and crafted evil right along with the good.

It is so much better sometimes simply to say 'I get the point.' I see what you mean.'

'I realize I need to learn more.'

All that is going on here is going over of the facts. No one is perfect and Lubavitch made their Rebbe the Messiah like Jesus. If this is not a core problem to you what am I to say?

It is okay sometimes to bang a bit on the head to make a point. Stick with the facts and be not afraid to find out the truth.

Gd got rather sick of us and went into hiding when He used to respond directly to our pleas.

Re-Read the above and maybe garner some insight about that too.

We all must be better people. We all must love more and hate less. We all must labor for the good. And we all must bend down and pick up the truth whether we like it or not.

We ought to have some real discussion on these important points even if the archeologists have figured most of this out in this particular case.

Yet we snipe and go after the messenger because we no longer will stand with the truth.

What world do you think is waiting for our kinderlach if this represents the moms and pops and their thinking about life on this day of all days?

Does anyone see what is really coming toward us now? Do you know we have perhaps gone around the bend so far that what we have been told was going to happen is coming?

I always wonder why that does not bother almost all of you.

You splatter your opinions all over the place about mostly nothing.

You avoid warnings and live not by any ethical values that stress goodness, love and life.

Folks nothing good is going to come but the darkness unless we change our ways, attitudes, actions, language and hearts toward each other.

While all of this is being written thousands of our little kids are being buggered by their abas today.

Some right next door to your own home.

And this is how you bring awareness to today.

Take a risk to live with goodness and fight for kindness.

Risk your life to do something good.

Try being different than you are in your character qualities that are negative.

I am not referrring to all of you. There are some tremendous commentators who write here almost every day.

I am definately not one of them but I find always some rather amazing chiddush from what i call 'the wake up please thinkers' who write here. Thank you for being you.

Loved the comment about the age of Midrash and Christian writings.

Reminds me that Paul was what 200 years building his bible after the death of Jesus?
And Matthew and Luke wrote 40 odd years after Jesus's death.

Meanwhile the Gospel of Mary and Thomas written while he lived never made it into the Christian Bible.

Be careful how and where and for what reason you quote.

Go find a 13th century Koran and your Jaw will drop when you compare it to a Koran especially a Wahab or Qtub version but anyone will do that is around today.

but alas for most everyone the seeking of the emes is not the case and the exile continues into the darkness which Gd also created.

[Shmarya]

Dude, Chabad is using this very recent discovery a proof that THEY are right (that the branches were "alachson"):

It's hard to account for stupidity – especially when it's combined with cult-like behavior.

[Whyaich]

Everything you say about the rebbe cannot be accepted. You are emotionally involved as know from your story with the Rebbe. Sorry

Posted by: Whyaich | August 09, 2011 at 11:11 AM

What you really mean is that you have to reject the facts because the facts prove your rebbe wrong, and in your theology, a rebbe cannot be wrong – so therefore the Rebbe was not a real rebbe. And you can't stand that.

Posted by: Shmarya | August 09, 2011 at 11:48 AM

NO WHAT I MEAN TO SAY IS REGARDLESS OF THE FACTS YOU CAN'T BE TRUSTED BECAUSE YOU ARE AN INVOLVED PARTY.
ITS SIMPLE.
AS YOU SO ELOQUENTLY ALWAYS SAY "process that". Actually it's pretty simple. No processing needed

[nobody]

Does anyone really care about this?

Who cares if he was wrong about the menorah? Why can't he be wrong?

Chabadniks: Why can't your rebbe have been wrong about something?

[mordecai]

Chabadniks: Why can't your rebbe have been wrong about something?

Posted by: nobody | August 09, 2011 at 05:32 PM

Because they think he is the Messiah.

Do Christians think Jesus was wrong about anything? -- No!

Similarly, the Rebbe cannot be wrong.

[Truth Hurts]

In the meantime, who was it that said the peace agreement with Egypt was worthless? I did not understand that myself...until the Arab Spring.

That drawing is so amateurish that it shows nothing either way - and it hardly matters.

What matters is that Shmarya and his minions were not even fit to polish the Rebbe's tattered shoes.

[Whyaich]

To Shmarya and all the other smart ass hypocrites:
A. Shmarya, you claim that the Rebbe was intolerant and not nice to people that oppose his views... How about you? You aren't nice to anyone that opposes your views. Process that. 
B. The Rebbe isn't some rabbi, or wise man. He is a tzadik. He had neuvah. He performed miracles etc. Hands down. 
Who are you or I to discuss if he can be wrong or not? We are lowly souls, that have zero understanding in tzaddikim. 
It's pathetic how you think you can debate a tzaddik. 
Next up is G-d???
Are there things that you disagree with him and now will blog about it????
There are no words to explain the stupidity involved in this. 
Regarding the menorah you seem to be way more versed in Torah than the rebbe as evident from you published Torah works. 
The Rebbe disagrees with many great scholars, true. But that's their business. The rebbe doesn't argue with you nor do the other great scholars need you to back them up. 
E

[Shmarya]

1. There is no nevuah (prophesy) today.

2. If a prophet is wrong he is a false prophet. That's the halakha. But the Rebbe was wrong, he made mistakes. That means he was a false prophet.

3. You're in a cult of your own making. Get up and get out.

[Adam Neira]

To Whyaich,

Be careful. Some of the people you are having a go at here just may turn out to be leaders in their own right in the future, if they are not already now in some way, albeit hidden. I'm pretty sure Shmarya fits into this category and perhaps some of the other rascals who comment at this site also. Maybe you should heed the following advice. To paraphrase Avos...

"Make for yourself another teacher."

[Whyaich]

Your a master at veering off the topic. Proccess that

[Whyaich]

Answer the questions

[Shmarya]

You didn't ask any questions and my response to you refuted your claims.

[Whyaich]

A. Shmarya, you claim that the Rebbe was intolerant and not nice to people that oppose his views... How about you?

[Whyaich]

Who are you or I to discuss if he can be wrong or not?

[Shmarya]

1. There are no infallible leaders in Judaism and NO ONE is beyond criticism and questioning – even your dead rebbe.

2. I don't claim to be tzaddik or a navi, and I make it very clear that I do not tolerate liars and fools very well.

[Whyaich]

Again you are proving my point. It's personal. As evident from your comment on the Rebbe.
And you didnt answer the question. All you say is you believe no one is beyond reprimand.
Why do you believe ghat? Do you believe in tzaddikim? G-d sent messangers?

[Whyaich]

And you still didn't answer the first question. Aren't you being not nice???
Acc to you, the rebbe was not nice to you and pushed you away.
What about you???