Haredim Boycott Mahane Yehuda, Prepare To Open Haredi Gender Segregated Market

Jerusalem's ultra-Orthodox sector is preparing to set up an alternative market as part of its boycott on the veteran Mahane Yehuda Market. According to haredi Jerusalem City Council Member Shlomo Rosenstein, the market will be open to men only in the morning hours and to women only in the afternoon.

Mahane Yehuda

Haredim to set up 'modest' market
As part of boycott on Jerusalem's Mahane Yehuda, ultra-Orthodox planning alternative market which will serve men, women at different hours of the day
Tzipi Malkov • Ynet

Jerusalem's ultra-Orthodox sector is preparing to set up an alternative market as part of its boycott on the veteran Mahane Yehuda Market. The City Council's haredi factions convened earlier this week in a bid to locate a suitable area for the new market.

The haredim declared war on the market, its famous Mahneyuda restaurant and street parties held in the city center throughout the summer. They were mainly enraged by the Balbasta Festival held in the market, which they said were a demonstration of immodesty and immorality.

Senior haredi officials and rabbis were invited last week to attend an urgent discussion on the matter. During the meeting, the rabbis asked City Council members to ask the Jerusalem mayor to relocate the street parties from the city center to the Malcha or Talpiot neighborhoods.

They demanded that the Balabasta Festival be canceled, threatening to boycott Mahane Yehuda and open their own market if their request was turned down.

Members of the haredi factions decided this week to push for the establishment of an alternative market on an area between the neighborhoods of Ramot and Ramat Shlomo.

According to the plan, the market will be open on Wednesdays and Fridays and will sell vegetables, pastries and sewing notions, but no meat, fish or dairy products. In addition, it will adhere to the strictest modesty rules.
 
According to Council Member Shlomo Rosenstein, the market will be open to men only in the morning hours and to women only in the afternoon.

Municipality: No change in plans

Meanwhile, Mahane Yehuda's merchants are trying to practice restraint. Shimon Darwish, head of the Mahane Yehuda Merchants Association, said they had no plans to give in and would conduct business as usual.

He added, however, "We are open for a dialogue. If the haredim want to talk to us, we're willing to listen." The events, he said, will continue as planned in any case.

"There is no immorality here, and we're shocked at the fact that the haredim are referring this way to singers performing world music," added Yaron Tzidkiyahu, one of the owners of Tzidkiyahu Delicacies.

Some of the merchants said this was all a haredi act of revenge against Mayor Nir Barkat, who allowed private investigators to follow senior officials at the haredi education department suspected of falsifying their timesheets.

The Jerusalem Municipality issued the following statement in response: "There is no change in plans. The municipality's cultural initiatives have turned the city into an attractive place for investors and young people.

"The mayor has doubled the budget of cultural institutions and tripled the number of events. Hotel occupancy has gone up by 30% and an impressive rise has been recorded in hotel revenues. The municipality will continue promoting culture for all sectors in order to boost the city's economy."

Comments

[jancsipista]

as i said many times before theese hareidim are brain damages they are getting more demented every day.

[David]

They're making it up as they go. Whatever it is, it is NOT Judaism they are practicing.

[P. Almonius]

I was at the shuk festival both this year and last. Did no one notice it last year? I didn't find it any more or less "immodest and immoral" than last year.

[netflix]

its all about the money.

the guy who is funding this new project, and will get a return, convinced the so called rabbis to ban machne yehuda, and then to support his new market.

do i have inside information? no. is this still the truth? yes.

[Stan]

This means another burden on Israel security forces. These markets have been prime targets for suicide bombers in the past. So just like there are army officers stationed @ entrances to Machane Yehuda, there will need to be additional officers stationed @ this Taliban market. What a waste! What's next - separate sidewalks? Separate streets? And by the way, shouldn't the men be learning torah exclusively? Isn't food shopping bitul torah zman & exclusively a woman's job?

[Garnel Ironheart]

First of all, I don't like your new pop-up ads.

Secondly, I don't see the downside to this. It means less congestion, more room for normal shoppers and more flexibility with community programming for Machane Yehuda.

I don't get it. People complain that the Chareidim are around but when they pack up their toys and go somewhere else they complain that they're not around?

[R. Wisler]

As the quality of their education (both religious and secular), morals, and community decreases geometrically, their idiotic chumras and foolishness increase at the same rate. Same thing happened with the Muslims who are doing so much damage to the world.

This is the product of charletans such as Joel Teitlebaum and the unholy seed of the Roth ("Toldoth Aaron") "dynasty" as well as the Litvak enablers.

[p]

"Necessity is the mother of invention" This makes sense from their point of view. Instead of fighting and having all this hillul hashem, setting up something that conforms to what they want makes a damn lot of sense. A form of protesting with their pocket books.

[jancsipista]

R.Wisler- beutifully said, you hit the nail on its head,theese hassidim have it so good that they go nuts and then have the audacity to start dictating to others and dominate anyone who lives near them.

[Yaakov Sullivan]

Separate buses, women in Beit Shemesh outdoing the "modesty" Muslim women by wearing the "sal", women forbidden to drive, now ghettoised shopping, forbidding men to hear the voice of a woman, and the list goes on. Soon they will all be back in the cave. What person in their right mind would ever want to emulate these people? At least, as I remember the markets of Jerusalem, Muslim women still shop with the men present.

[Anon]

This is just a meaningless burst of blabber.

The cheapest prices can be found at Machane Yehuda.

People who can't afford toilet paper aren't going to go to a more expensive market.

They'll go late as the market closes and do their shopping so no one can see.

Except all of their neighbors who will all be doing the same thing.

This one is a joke.

Why don't they just declare a food strike - forever.

[Stan]

Separate buses, women in Beit Shemesh outdoing the "modesty" Muslim women by wearing the "sal", Posted by: Yaakov Sullivan | August 25, 2011 at 07:37 AM

YS - What is a "sal"?

[seymour]

Posted by: Stan | August 25, 2011 at 06:59 AM

no security forces will be needed

Rabbi Aharon Leib Shteinman will say just post a Torah learner near all entrances and exist and that should do the job

[seymour]

let them open their own market as long as no tax dollars goes to fund it should be all private

[Adam Neira]

"The mayor has doubled the budget of cultural institutions and tripled the number of events. Hotel occupancy has gone up by 30% and an impressive rise has been recorded in hotel revenues. The municipality will continue promoting culture for all sectors in order to boost the city's economy."

Mayor Nir Barkat is doing a good job obviously. Jerusalem should be a place of safety, dynamism, prosperity, colour and respect for traditional values.

[Stan]

Seymour - you're a sensible guy - do you agree that this is got to be a hoax? How are the logistics of this new mkt going to work? Women vendors & security personnel during women only hrs & men vendors & security personnel during men only hrs?

[PJS]

..... will sell vegetables, pastries and sewing notions,

What is a "sewing notion"??? I am trying to translate it back into Ivrit, but can't!!

[Shmarya]

Needles, thread, ribbon, buttons, fabric, patterns, etc.

[Bas Melech]

What next? I think that some of those people sit around all day trying to figure out the next restriction to impose.

[Stan]

biggest problem is that this extremism is filtering down into previously more modern sects of orthodoxy. Examples: weddings (mechitzas are now standard, separate seating more prevalent), dress code (more & more Young Israels are heavily populated w/ black hats & wigs) & more & more young women foregoing legit jobs for full-time learning.

[Dovit]

These ultra-orthodox should do what is obviously in their hearts and convert to Islam already. They are more than halfway there. Go ahead, and stop pulling the rest of us down with you.

[yudel]

Until they take away the stipends and strip these dullards of their free ride they will continue to ruin our Holy City.

It is ironic is it not that no one does a thing about any of this. Here a country of tough fighters fear a bunch of gutless thugs.

Whatever they want they get. Giving to them which is destroying the very economy of Israel will continue though. Politics here trump sanctity of life. These people hate our people and hate clal yisroel. Think otherwise and you are a fool.

But they will continue to win and get whatever they want as long as Israel has a parliamentary government and deals are being made to steal money and gain power.

Cut them off. Force their hand to either join back to our people or simply attempt to live in abject poverty. Do that and it will break the back of most of these pretenders to the various thrones.

Since they are hate what they call the 'stinkin medina' and call Israel 'Palestine' as a matter of daily conversation call their hand.

Worse yet to leave thousands of kids and families under oppression upon which they have no clue how to escape is despicable action on our part.

[PJS]

"sewing notions"

Thanks Shmarya

Dictionary:
3 ( notions) items used in sewing, such as buttons, pins, and hooks.

== never heard this usage in my life!!!

[Stan]

Posted by: yudel | August 25, 2011 at 11:27 AM

well said. I agree 100%. they are living openly as traitors. they should be drafted into IDF even if just to clean latrines. in addition, they should not be able to collect welfare or unemployment unless they can prove they used best efforts to find employment.

[Office of the Chief Rabbi]

Yehuda Levin say no, since single sex mall will facilitate gay cruising.

[Stan]

can you just imagine how badly that alternative market will smell from body odor???

[Yissy-CA]

I don't get it. People complain that the Chareidim are around but when they pack up their toys and go somewhere else they complain that they're not around?

Posted by: Garnel Ironheart | August 25, 2011 at 07:14 AM

That is because they force their sickness and *new* religion on the rest of us. Unfortunately, these people are given power over the rest of us when it comes to matters of Yiddishkeit. They sit on every beis din, over see shechting, perform marriages. And what have we gotten for it? Draconian chumrot in kashrus, tznius, geirus, and mi yehudi. Their sick ideology creeps its way into normative Judaism as well as the cultural psyche of the Jewish people.

[ah-pee-chorus]

People complain that the Chareidim are around but when they pack up their toys and go somewhere else they complain that they're not around?

Posted by: Garnel Ironheart

they arent packing up anything to go somewhere else. theyre just demanding to have their own market which they can control based on their taliban sense of morality.
were they to actually all pick up and leave israel, few tears would be shed and israelis would finally be able to experience true freedom, without having to support those who are now limiting it.

[william e emba]

Meanwhile, Mahane Yehuda's merchants are trying to practice restraint. Shimon Darwish, head of the Mahane Yehuda Merchants Association, said they had no plans to give in and would conduct business as usual.

What a surprise. Shmarya's past claims about haredim threats of boycotts and violence are enough to force poor innocent Israeli companies to their knees and extract discounts was indeed something he made up

[Stan]

what these idiots don't realize is that they will be paying higher prices in their alternative mkt. food cannot come any cheaper than it is in machane yehuda

[Shmarya]

What a surprise. Shmarya's past claims about haredim threats of boycotts and violence are enough to force poor innocent Israeli companies to their knees and extract discounts was indeed something he made up

Posted by: william e emba | August 25, 2011 at 02:24 PM

There you go again.

You confuse bravado with facts, and you as of yet have no proof of what will happen as the new market opens.

Past that, Mahane Yehuda cannot comply with haredi demands here, because teh demands – which include gender segregation – are illegal and also unworkable. And the festival is sponsored by the city, and the city is not giving in.

Lastly, a significant portion of Mahane Yeshuda – which is open air or cover with a roof but no doors or walls – is on city streets, which, again, makes haredi demands impossible to fulfill.

I don't know whether you ever lived in Jerusalem or shopped regularly in Mahane Yehuda, but if you had, all of these points would have been self-evident to you, providing you were actually interested in the truth.

[william e emba]

The merchants could of course meet the haredim demands. They agree to close down their existing stores, and run the new ones. Sheesh you're as brainless as ever.

The merchants choose not to. They are not petitioning the city to cave in. They are not asking for the city to talibanize the streets for them. Take it or leave it.

You confuse bravado with facts, and you as of yet have no proof of what will happen as the new market opens.

What a hypocrite! You just knew that haredi discounts, of the sort businesses give regularly throughout the free capitalist world, was not actually of the sort businesses give regularly throughout the free capitalist world. And your proof? All bluster and bluff and bravado, no facts whatsoever.

[Shmarya]

The merchants could of course meet the haredim demands. They agree to close down their existing stores, and run the new ones. Sheesh you're as brainless as ever.

Well, that proves you're a fool.

Yup, those merchants could agree to close down their stalls, each worth hundreds of thousands of dollars, to meet haredi demands.

Yup, they COULD do that – but they would be foolish to do so.

Past that, you ignored the rest of what I wrote and again proved that you know next to nothing about Jerusalem, about how haredim function, and about doing business there.

[william e emba]

Yup, those merchants could agree to close down their stalls, each worth hundreds of thousands of dollars, to meet haredi demands.

Yup, they COULD do that – but they would be foolish to do so.

You figured that one out on your own, or what? More precisely, it's foolish if they're following the money. So much for your claims in the past that haredi demands keep merchants cowering, and the merchants unwillingly take a big financial hit.

Past that, you ignored the rest of what I wrote and again proved that you know next to nothing about Jerusalem, about how haredim function, and about doing business there.

It didn't refute anything regarding my point. You made a claim in the past that certain merchants did the only possible thing they could do in response to haredi demands. You did so without a shred of evidence--when asked for evidence, you simply said it was "obvious" to anyone who understands the haredim, like you do. Yet here we see, merchants defying haredi demands.

As usual, you're being denser than dense, not even capable of understanding what point is being addressed in the first place.

[Shmarya]

You're a fool.

You don't know Jerusalem or the haredi community there or the politics or, quite frankly, anything.

You took Econ 101 and 102 and you think that explains how companies do business in markets like that. But it doesn't.

Do try to process:

The stall owners have no choice. The festival is put on by the city, Mahane Yehuda is largely made up of city streets, and haredi demands are illegal. The stall owners can't move, because they would each lose hundreds of thousands of dollars.

Now compare that to a business in Mea Shearim, for example, Orh HaChaim bookstore.

The Sicariim have been targeting it for about one year, breaking its windows, trashing it, stealing hundreds of thousands of dollars in merchandise, etc., and boycotting it.

The police have done nothing, even though some of the Sicariim have been caught on security camera footage as they attacked the store, because cops have long ago ceded Mea Shearim to the Sicariim, much the way parts of NYC were ceded to gangs by the NYPD in the 1850s.

The owner can't move without losing a huge amount of money that he put into renovating the store. But he can't ban tourists from his store, because that will destroy him financially, too.

The Sicariim want the tourists banned.

According to Behadrei Haredim, the owner of Ohr HaChaim just turned to two American rabbis to mediate with the Sicariim, to work out a way that he can save his business.

Big Israeli companies who do business bordering Mea Shearim or in it can't suffer through the same types of attacks and boycotts. For them, they either move out or give in. Moving costs much more money, so most simply give in to these extreme demands while at the same time heavily discounting certain merchandise that the Sicariim like. The discounts go above and beyond what is done elsewhere, even in other poor but non-haredi communities. They're a form of payoffs to the Sicariim, who use them to build their street cred with other haredim.

Like it or not, that's how it works.

I realize your Econ textbook didn't teach you this.

But this is how it works.

[Gefilte Fish]

The hareidim are free to boycott stores (peacefully, of course) as long as we are free to boycott their stores. I urge ALL of you to boycott Meah Shearim! Boycott their hashgachas! Give $0 to their yeshivas! Do NOT send your precious children to hareidi programs!

The hareidi version of Judaism is not authentic, it's deranged. My elderly relatives, who all grew up in pre-WWII Europe in Rabbinical families in the frumest of shtetls, insist that the vast majority of frum Jews did NOT behave like modern-day hareidim. Real Jews had jobs, real Jews learned secular subjects, and real Jews did not segregate men from women (except in shul).

[Yissy-CA]

The hareidi version of Judaism is not authentic, it's deranged. My elderly relatives, who all grew up in pre-WWII Europe in Rabbinical families in the frumest of shtetls, insist that the vast majority of frum Jews did NOT behave like modern-day hareidim. Real Jews had jobs, real Jews learned secular subjects, and real Jews did not segregate men from women (except in shul).

Posted by: Gefilte Fish | August 25, 2011 at 05:12 PM

Truth.

Who cares where these folks shop? business people should have the right to invest in a market to serve a particular demographic group and the hareidim should have the right like everyone else to shop in whatever place they feel more comfortable. I don't see what interest it is of anyone else.

Good bye and good luck.

[David]

The hareidi version of Judaism is not authentic, it's deranged. My elderly relatives, who all grew up in pre-WWII Europe in Rabbinical families in the frumest of shtetls, insist that the vast majority of frum Jews did NOT behave like modern-day hareidim. Real Jews had jobs, real Jews learned secular subjects, and real Jews did not segregate men from women (except in shul).

Posted by: Gefilte Fish | August 25, 2011 at 05:12 PM

I responded to this and then it disappeared....so I am reposting my thoughts...

This is so true.

What they are practicing is not authentic Judaism.

Where in the Torah does it say that a Jew is not expected to work or fight?

In fact, it says the opposite.

They are making it up as they go and their failure to practice Torah will bring about the downfall of the Jewish people.

[David]

They are also guilty of adding their own laws to the Torah which is prohibited by the Torah.

[william e emba]

The stall owners have no choice.

And there is where you are obviously ignorant.

The festival is put on by the city, Mahane Yehuda is largely made up of city streets, and haredi demands are illegal. The stall owners can't move, because they would each lose hundreds of thousands of dollars.

The stall owners can close for the festival. The stall owners can petition the city to cancel the festival. The stall owners can move to this proposed talibanized market with its haredi rules, presumably where the demands are legal.

Now compare that to a business in Mea Shearim, for example, Orh HaChaim bookstore.

The Sicariim have been targeting it for about one year, breaking its windows, trashing it, stealing hundreds of thousands of dollars in merchandise, etc., and boycotting it.

And the stall owners in Jerusalem are so terrified that they've agreed to the haredi demands? No. Not in the least.

Big Israeli companies who do business bordering Mea Shearim or in it can't suffer through the same types of attacks and boycotts. For them, they either move out or give in. Moving costs much more money, so most simply give in to these extreme demands while at the same time heavily discounting certain merchandise that the Sicariim like.

So let's see. It's too expensive for the merchants in Mahane Yehuda to move, as you've explained, so this proves that they have no choice but to defy the haredim. It's too expensive for the merchants near Meah Shearim to move, as you've explained, so this proves that they have no choice but to cave in to the haredim.

This is the hypocrisy I'm pointing out. It reeks.

The discounts go above and beyond what is done elsewhere, even in other poor but non-haredi communities. They're a form of payoffs to the Sicariim, who use them to build their street cred with other haredim.

Do you have any evidence of this? Show us where you've compared the discounts the haredim receive with other discounts around the world, and show us an unusual not-believable-by-standard-econ-101 theory discrepancy. If you fail to do so, you are simply making things up. I've seen nothing but bluster on your part, insults instead of arguments, and attempts to explain the obvious as if it were relevant when it has nothing to do with your hypocrisy.

Try some facts. Actual numbers. And a little consistency for once.

[Shmarya]

You're an absolute idiot.

You have no understanding of Jerusalem, haredim or Israeli politics – and you're far to arrogant to grasp how utterly foolish you look and are.

I'll answer one of your idiotic points just to show you how freaking ignorant you are.

The Sicariim are based in Mea Shearim/Geulah and in Beitar.

Mahane Yehuda isn't their turf.

So merchants in or near Mea Shearim/Geulah have to worry about boycotts and protests – and vandalism and violence.

Merchants in Mahane Yehuda have to worry about boycotts.

A stall in Mahane Yehuda is worth hundreds of thousands of dollars and are often passed down from generation to generation.

A stall in the new haredi market will be worth a few thousand dollars.

So closing a stall in Mahane Yehuda to move to a new stall in the haredi market is economic suicide.

Now go wrap what passes for your mind around the prolonged attacks and vandalism at the Ohr HaChaim bookstore in Mea Shearim/Geulah.

Does that 'powerful' mind of yours notice any extortion of the shop's owner?

Does your 'scintillating' intelligence grasp what it must be like to be on the verge of losing your business to those thugs?

Do you understand why he can't move?

Of course you don't, because you're William E. Emba, hot air balloon. And you don't know anything you don't want to know.

[Yissy-CA]

and the hareidim should have the right like everyone else to shop in whatever place they feel more comfortable. I don't see what interest it is of anyone else.

Good bye and good luck.

Posted by: | August 26, 2011 at 12:08 AM

Because you and I would NOT be welcome to shop there.

[Yosef ben Matitya]

it's very sad, should one continue praying in orthodox shuls?

[william e emba]

You're an absolute idiot.

I'm someone who sticks to facts. You make things up and pass them off as facts.

You have no understanding of Jerusalem, haredim or Israeli politics – and you're far to arrogant to grasp how utterly foolish you look and are.

You have no facts on your side, so you make them up. I do not.

I'll answer one of your idiotic points just to show you how freaking ignorant you are.

No, you dodge my point entirely.

The Sicariim are based in Mea Shearim/Geulah and in Beitar.

Mahane Yehuda isn't their turf.

So merchants in or near Mea Shearim/Geulah have to worry about boycotts and protests – and vandalism and violence.

And these merchants you cited before? Blanket discounts to all haredim.

Merchants in Mahane Yehuda have to worry about boycotts.

And apparently they don't care.

A stall in Mahane Yehuda is worth hundreds of thousands of dollars and are often passed down from generation to generation.

A stall in the new haredi market will be worth a few thousand dollars.

Right! They're following the money. Just like I said. Sheesh, you're slow to catch on.

So closing a stall in Mahane Yehuda to move to a new stall in the haredi market is economic suicide.

Right. They are not interested in haredi demands whatsoever.

Now, how much does it cost them to petition the city to cave in to the haredi demands? Nothing. How much does it cost them to close down for the festival? A few good days. They're not interested.

Now go wrap what passes for your mind around the prolonged attacks and vandalism at the Ohr HaChaim bookstore in Mea Shearim/Geulah.

Does that 'powerful' mind of yours notice any extortion of the shop's owner?

Where are the acts of vandalism against the merchants cited above? Extortion? Threats? Complaints to authorities?

Does your 'scintillating' intelligence grasp what it must be like to be on the verge of losing your business to those thugs?

Do you understand why he can't move?

Of course you don't, because you're William E. Emba, hot air balloon. And you don't know anything you don't want to know.

You've identified one victim of extortion. I'm sure there are a great number of others.

Now, give us a reason to believe that the merchants from your previous article are in fact victims of extortion, and not, as was pointed out then, acting according to standard Econ 101 practices.

For example, back up the claim you made in your previous response, that the discounts offered were noticeably greater than what could possibly be expected from Econ 101. Of course, that would require you to actually understand Econ 101, which all evidence seen indicates that you don't have a clue regarding it.

Hence, the accusations of hypocrisy in your general direction. You've made factual claims, absolutely refused to back them up with a shred of evidence, and then accuse others who point this out about you of bluster.

[Shmarya]

Like I said, you don't know Jerusalem or haredim or the Sicariim.

You're naar with a big mouth, nothing more.

You're so freaking ignorant that you don't realize how freaking ignorant you are.

I've answered your questions and I've provided proof.

That William E. Emaba can't or won't grasp this is not my problem.

[william e emba]

And you, Shmarya, are a bald-faced liar. You have provided no evidence of:

The discounts go above and beyond what is done elsewhere, even in other poor but non-haredi communities. They're a form of payoffs to the Sicariim, who use them to build their street cred with other haredim.

in the examples you cited before. You claim to "know" Jerusalem, haredim, and the Sicariim, but so far as anyone can tell, you simply make things up.

I mean, your comment makes no sense whatsoever. A discount on haredi phone cards is a payoff to the Sicariim? Really? They shakedown haredim for the savings, or what?

Giving such evidence will answer my questions and provide proof of your claims. Refusing to do so, as you have refused repeatedly, convinces pretty much anyone with a working brain that you talk about things you know nothing about, and when called on it, react with bluster and namecalling.

Simply pathetic.

[Shmarya]

You're the one who is pathetic.

We'll list these again, just to help you grasp your issues:

1. You know next to NOTHING about Jerusalem, Mea Shearim, the Sicariim – or even about haredim.

2. You are wholly unable to process any piece of evidence, any fact, any expert opinion that calls your opinion into question.

3. You know next to NOTHING about economics in markets that are not free, or that have significant intimidation factors and abuse.

4. I've suggested a reputable person, a rabbi, who you could call to check what I've written about these cases of extortion that you illogically deny, and who can explain how the Sicariim and Mea Shearim haredim work. But you refuse to call, because, after all, you are William E. Emba.

Past all that, you're a pompous ass.

When confronted with a very real case of illegal haredi intimidation, threats and violence against a shop owner, and the complete lack of police response to that or rabbinic response to that, you ignore it or attempt to misrepresent it.

Why do you do that?

Because it proves you wrong and, after all, William E. Emba can never be wrong.

Go to a good psychologist or psychiatrist and take the MMPI.

And then, after the results come in, get the therapy you so desperately need.

[william e emba]

We'll list these again, just to help you grasp your issues:

What you don't do is provide any facts or evidence for your claims that I've pointed out lacked facts or evidence. How convenient.

1. You know next to NOTHING about Jerusalem, Mea Shearim, the Sicariim – or even about haredim.

You jump to this conclusion solely because I pointed out that you provided zero evidence for particular claims you made.

2. You are wholly unable to process any piece of evidence, any fact, any expert opinion that calls your opinion into question.

I have seen nothing but one moron's hot air opinion and bald-faced lying. Said moron has repeatedly refused to supply "any piece of evidence, any fact, any expert opinion" that backs up the particular claims I and others pointed out did not make too much sense.

3. You know next to NOTHING about economics in markets that are not free, or that have significant intimidation factors and abuse.

You're just making up that conclusion. You, of course, know less than NOTHING about markets, period. Free, not so free, criminal, or otherwise.

4. I've suggested a reputable person, a rabbi, who you could call to check what I've written about these cases of extortion that you illogically deny, and who can explain how the Sicariim and Mea Shearim haredim work.

I have not denied, logically or illogically, any cases of extortion where you have provided evidence. I (and others) have pointed out--entirely logically by the way--that numerous examples you inferred (without a shred of evidence) had to have been extortion happened to coincide with what Econ 101 logically predicts all long.

I've pointed out that you failed to provide any evidence for your claims. Not even expert opinion. You have made the claim that the reason the haredim are getting discount phone deals is because of criminal extortion. You have provided zero evidence for this. You say you know someone who would back you up. Well, good. Quote him or shut up. I'm not doing your "journalism" (cough cough) for you. I'm simply pointing out that you have FAILED to provide any evidence.

But you refuse to call, because, after all, you are William E. Emba.

I refuse to call for the same reason I post only once a day or every other day on this subject: I have lots of better things to do with my time. And based on the low non-existent quality of the evidence you have provided so far, it seems almost certainly going to be a big fat nothing anyway.

Next you'll be quoting your imaginary friends, or something. I'm not going to play enabler to your delusions.

Go ahead. Provide the factual source for your claim that the haredim discounts were well beyond what Econ 101 predicts. If you say your Big Name Source has the evidence, well, good, share. Not the Name, as you did before, but the Evidence.

Past all that, you're a pompous ass.

Ooh, you're so meeeeean. Really, Shmarya, try providing Evidence.

When confronted with a very real case of illegal haredi intimidation, threats and violence against a shop owner, and the complete lack of police response to that or rabbinic response to that, you ignore it or attempt to misrepresent it.

How so? It has nothing to do with the other cases, so far as anyone can tell, based on anything that anyone has posted or reported here or anywhere else.

Are you saying that the haredim were upset that they had to pay the same price for a Mikraot Gedolim or an Ahavat David haShalem as the non-religious? And when the phone companies saw their response, they caved in? (And, purely by accident of course, started making money that they weren't making before?) Unlike those holders of extremely valuable locations in Mahane Yehuda, who have nothing to lose but their extremely valuable locations? And can't even bother to make a minimal show of concern that they could be the next target?

Really, your position is beyond stupid. Every time you try to explain your position, it gets dumber and dumber and dumber. And you absolutely can't notice.

Why do you do that?

Because it proves you wrong and, after all, William E. Emba can never be wrong.

Go to a good psychologist or psychiatrist and take the MMPI.

And then, after the results come in, get the therapy you so desperately need.

Perhaps you should learn about the concept of "projection".

Meanwhile, I rely on facts and evidence. That's not changing.

[Shmarya]

Please.

I've provided a lot of evidence and I've given you suggestions for rabbis who can confirm what I've said.

But William E. Emba isn't concerned with the – truth. William E. Emba is concerned with being right, truth be damned if necessary.

You've shown no understanding or knowledge of Mea Shearim/Geulah haredim the area's history, the Sicariim, etc.

You have no grasp of Israel, its market, how that market is warped by threats from religious zealots.

You continue to confuse free market economics with economics in un-free societies.

You also disregard my firsthand EXPERIENCE with Jerusalem, Mea Shearim/Geulah and its haredim – experience you do not have. In the sam eway, you refuse to ask rabbis I named to explain the situation there to you.

In short, you're full of hot air.

You have serious ego issues.

Got take an MMPI and get the therapy you desperately need.

[william e emba]

Yawn.

You continue to provide zero evidence, zero facts for your specific claims regarding specific companies. You continue to engage in nonstop insults in requests for any such evidence. You continue to invent delusional excuses that economics doesn't actually work in Israel.

You also contradict yourself left and right, full 100% hypocrite.

You claim to have evidence, and in desperation, suggested I talk to someone whom you can't even bother to quote. In short, you were admitting you had no evidence, and knew you had provided no evidence, and you were just faking it all along.

You claim, with zero evidence, that known economic market forces break down in Israel, just because there's a criminal element. Well, economists are aware of crime. (This apparently is a surprise to you.) Yet you also claim--with zero evidence or facts to support you--that the offered discounts were overly generous. Well, if the markets aren't normal, what, exactly is the baseline for expected discount? You can't tell us period. In short, you're trying to claim the market is abnormal, except when it's not, and somehow that proves you're right.

You claim, that merchants are forced to cave into haredim demands, except when they don't.

You are the 100% complete total hypocrite. You are the 100% complete total bald-faced liar. You are the 100% complete total loser.

[Shmarya]

Please.

What a sick person you are. Go take an MMPI and then get appropriate counseling.

[william e emba]

What a completely stupid person you are. Still zero evidence on your side. Still unable to notice this obvious hole in your argument. Still wetting your diapers when someone contradicts you. Still freaking out when asked to provide evidence.

Come on: explain again how economics doesn't work in Israel. I mean, each version of your ranting gets funnier and funnier.

I mean, let me see, it's only in Israel that there are criminals. It's only in Israel that there are valuable locations to do business. It's only in Israel that they have different kinds of people. It's only is Israel that businesses refuse to make more money, unless dragged kicking and screaming to the marketplace by crazed ignoramuses.

Anything else you want to share? I mean, you've asserted that you're the expert. You actually made a trip there or something, and noticed instantly how Israel just can't function in any way comprehensible to the Western mind, what with all those bizarre differences you've described.

What next? Perhaps you'll explain how the laws of physics and chemistry and evolution and probability don't work in Israel either?

[Shmarya]

First of all, you're a sick person. Go take an MMPI and then get appropriate counseling and medication.

Secondly, you are too ill, too obnoxious and too William E. Emba, to grasp a simple, oft repeated FACT:

Economics work differently when societies are not free and/or when criminality is dominant.

How people did business in Brownsville or the Lower East Side 80 years ago was different from how they did business in Duluth.

These differences were more than regional and demographic.

These differences also reflected the fact that the mob controlled those two neighborhoods and store owners either paid protection money and followed the mob's rule or they were beaten, burned out and sometimes even killed.

The rules they had to follow often included buying merchandise and supplies from mob-connected vendors at inflated prices.

These businesses made less money doing this but the alternatives were worse.

In what passes for the logic of William E. Emba, the economics of Brownsville and the Lower east Side 80 years ago were no different from the economics of Postville, Iowa or Woodburne, New York.

In Mea Shearim/Geulah, you do what the Sicariim want done – or they trash your store, beat you and scare away your customers.

And good luck trying to sell your business for anything close to its real value.

When the targeted store is a high profile national chain, the Sicariim use slightly different tactics, focusing on boycotts, threats of violence, occasional vandalism and customer intimidation.

But William E. Emba can't grasp any of this.

That's because William E. Emba needs to go visit his mental health professional.

[william e emba]

I get it! You did provide evidence. You posted a video to Youtube, and they censored it! Hahaha! You're a funny guy. Not.

Seriously, you speak about economics as if you know something about it. You don't. You OBVIOUSLY don't. As I've mentioned to you repeatedly, economists are aware of crime. The economist how mainstreamed the study of crime in economics received the Nobel Prize about 20 years ago, for work done decades earlier, so you're kind of dating your ignorance.

Here's a simple claim you just made:

When the targeted store is a high profile national chain, the Sicariim use slightly different tactics, focusing on boycotts, threats of violence, occasional vandalism and customer intimidation.

Go ahead. DOCUMENT this. That's what I've asked for. You've given ZERO evidence. You simply make assertions, indistinguishable from random opinions, and then back them up with made up idiocies. You respond to comments that nothing in the posted articles on the national chains is surprising to anyone with a grasp of basic economics by MAKING UP STUFF. Said MADE UP STUFF then proves you were right.

You claimed that the discounts were way beyond what was reasonable--without identifying what the reasonable discount rates were supposed to have been. You claimed that the businesses were ignoring other low-income demographics--as if price discrimination were not a well-known phenomenon.

Hint: in the face of crime, businesses still--guess what--try to make money!!! And if that means facing up to a stagnant economy by offering discounts to hard-core non-customers--guess what--they offer discounts!!! And if other impoverished customers are already customers--guess what--they don't get discounts!!!

Really, this is basic. This is elementary. It requires self-willed stupidity to not grasp it.

[Shmarya]

You're mentally ill.

You know NOTHING about Jerusalem, the haredim there, the Sicariim, the police or even the businesses.

You refuse to make a simple phone call to a well known rabbi who can confirm for you that my representation of the Sicariim is correct.

There are freaking newspaper articles, for God's sake, that talk about entire areas of Jerusalem being no go zones for police because of haredi violence against them.

You ignore the history of all this, the boycott of and riots over the Edison theatre, the beating of shopkeepers, the vandalism, the arson, the threats.

Now here's a little tip for your very inflated ego and it's close friend, your tiny little brain:

When economists take crime into account, they take it into account for societies as a WHOLE, and then separately for specific, neighborhoods, regions, etc, based on the crime there.

No person of normal or above normal intelligence who is not mentally ill would argue that a white shopkeeper's business in center city Detroit faced the same economic and criminal forces before the Martin Luther King assassination as it did during the riots that followed it or after that. But that is what you are, in effect, doing.

You're ill.

Go to psychologist, take the MMPI, and get your giant ego and its friend the help they so desperately need.

[william e emba]

So let me see. Shmarya once visited Israel, so he's an expert on Israel. Shmarya once talked to some haredim, so he's an expert on haredim. Shmarya once got beat up in fifth grade, so he's an expert on crime. Shmarya once found a dollar bill on the street, so he's an expert on economics. Shmarya once was a Chabadnik, se he's an expert on mental illness.

Got it.

You refuse to make a simple phone call to a well known rabbi who can confirm for you that my representation of the Sicariim is correct.

You refuse to make the phone call yourself. You refuse to quote him. Which companies are complaining that they are offering discounts to the haredim because of threats, and just suffering because they have no idea what to do with the extra profits that comes from exploiting new markets in an otherwise stagnant economy?

What, exactly, are the alleged profit-making victims of these alleged shakedowns supposed to be suffering from anyway? Guilt?

You seem to find numerous stories about victims of haredi criminality. Yet these Israeli journalists--you know, the ones on the scene, the ones being paid to find the dirt, the ones not living in their mothers' basements have, apparently, not found one business owner or employee complaining, even off the record, about how they were a victim of a financial shakedown.

There are freaking newspaper articles, for God's sake, that talk about entire areas of Jerusalem being no go zones for police because of haredi violence against them.

Yes. So what? For some bizarro reason, you assume I am not aware of this. For some bizarro reason, you seem that these articles are somehow relevant.

Well, here is your chance. How are they relevant? How, exactly, does this provide evidence that haredim are receiving discounts on phone services? Banking? Recycling? Again, it makes no sense.

You ignore the history of all this, the boycott of and riots over the Edison theatre, the beating of shopkeepers, the vandalism, the arson, the threats.

I ignore it since it seems entirely irrelevant. You have not documented a single example of haredim getting discounts because of threats. You have documented numerous examples of haredim violently opposing those who do not meet their own self-invented standards. You have not connected them in any way shape or form.

Now here's a little tip for your very inflated ego and it's close friend, your tiny little brain:

Uh oh. I'm shaking in my boots. Not.

When economists take crime into account, they take it into account for societies as a WHOLE, and then separately for specific, neighborhoods, regions, etc, based on the crime there.

Uh, is this supposed to mean something? Anything? It's just random word salad. Not very impressive.

No person of normal or above normal intelligence who is not mentally ill would argue that a white shopkeeper's business in center city Detroit faced the same economic and criminal forces before the Martin Luther King assassination as it did during the riots that followed it or after that. But that is what you are, in effect, doing.

Uh, no, that is not what I am doing. I am pointing out that you have been making up gibberish about "crime" and "economics", as if that somehow you'll come up with the right magic words that prove--well, I have no idea what--but it remains the case that you have completely failed to actually identify one single example of haredim discounts based on criminal intimidation.

Nor have you in any way shape or form explained how in the presence of haredim riots over Shabbos, kashrus, modesty, graves, or whatever issue is bugging them this week, business owners have suddenly lost interest in making profit off these people. Especially making profit off these people since the rest of the economy is so weak.

That the haredim include vandals, hooligans, and criminals acting as mindless, pushbutton drones with their rabbis' consent seems pretty well-documented. Meanwhile, I do not see one whit of intelligence in their riots and destruction. Criminal shakedowns in any large scale mob fashion require some level of intelligence, financial acumen, business savvy and coordination. (Yes, economists have studied this.) You have documented, so far as I can tell, the opposite of these talents.

[Shmarya]

William E. Emba is in clear need of mental health counseling.

Anyone reading this can see that today, 9-8-11, hours before he left his comment, two more articles on the Sicariim intimidation and extortion of shopkeepers, citizens and government were posted, and that several others were posted in the previous seven days.

Here are the two articles posted early this morning:

The Haredi Mafia:

http://failedmessiah.typepad.com/failed_messiahcom/2011/09/mea-shearims-haredi-mafia-567.html

Throwing Blows In Beit Shemesh:

http://failedmessiah.typepad.com/failed_messiahcom/2011/09/throwing-blows-in-beit-shemesh-567.html

One of the hallmarks of both articles is the under involvement or complete lack of involvement of police, even though the names and addresses of the Sicariim are known, and even though some of their illegal acts have been caught on security camera tape.

Another hallmark of both articles is the attempts by victims of the Sicariim to work out their own deals with them.

So far, the only victims that have not done this are the Modern Orthodox parents in Beit Shemesh. However, the mayor of Beit Shemesh did try to to work out a deal with the Sicariim that involved complete capitulation to them on every demand except giving the Sicariim the school building – but everyone I've heard from familiar with those negotiations expect that the building would be given to the Sicariim next year, after the Sicariim launch another round of attacks and protests against the Modern Orthodox school, and they believe the mayor knows that and has probably even pre-approved it.

At any rate, we have merchants and government both giving into extortion that includes what merchandise can or cannot be sold in shops (Feldheim in Jerusalem, for example, removed a a whole list of books written by Orthodox authors and endorsed by haredi rabbis that the Sicariim disapproved of – meaning it lost money and poorly served its customers), near complete police inaction, and isolation of the targeted merchants.

As for my personal experience with this and with Jerusalem, I lived there for more than 2 1/2 years, worked closely with and dealt with rabbis who had been or were being threatened by the Sicariim, know someone who was stabbed by them, know a kiruv organization that closed because of them, and had to work around their threats several times.

I know rabbis who negotiated with them, rabbis who negotiated with Rabbis Shternbuch or Weiss to make a deal with them, people who went to police and who got no help.

I also held a senior position in a NGO that the government cared about, and over the years I met Shimon Peres, Yitzhak Rabin, Netanyahu, and dozens of other MKs and political leaders, along with senior non-elected staff.

In short, I have experience. I know how the Sicariim operate and what it means to be threatened by them. I've watched the process with my own eyes. I've seen it many times.

And now I will close how I opened.

William E. Emba needs mental health counseling.

Go get it.

[william e emba]

Let's see. Shmarya, you continue to fail. You continue to not understand simple English. You have yet to identify one example of a business that was pressured to offer haredim discounts or face violence. Rather than cite any examples, you cite two recent articles of yours which are completely irrelevant. You mention your long experience, none of it concerning businesses that were pressured to give haredim discounts.

You've given examples of haredim pressuring businesses to adopt haredim standards. Sometimes they trash the business. Sometimes they succeed in convincing the business to change. Sometimes they are completely ignored. You've documented all of these. This isn't being questioned, yet you keep responding as if it is.

What is being questioned is your claim that businesses are offering discounts out of fear of haredi violence. YOU COMPLETELY REFUSE TO PROVIDE ONE SHRED OF EVIDENCE THAT THIS HAS EVER OCCURRED. (Note: people calling them "mafia" does not mean they are engaging in the same business deals the original Mafia engaged in.)

When several posters pointed out that offering targeted discounts is often standard business practice--especially when the target is easily identifiable, not buying the product anyway, the product involves little marginal cost, and the economy is stagnant--you responded BY MAKING UP NONSTOP UTTER GIBBERISH ABOUT ECONOMICS.

At least in your latest post you didn't make up even more bizarre economic claims. There's some hope for you after all.

[Shmarya]

Ah. Mr. Mental Illness returns.

Again, you write as if these discounts were offered in a vacuum.

But they were not.

You write as if there were no negotiations between these corporations and the Badatz Yerushalyim and the even the Sicariim – but there were.

A group that beats up customers of stores which refuse to do what the Sicariim want, that trashes these stores, harasses and even beats store owners and which is not punished by police and the courts for doing so creates a non-standard economy in which standard economic presumptions may not apply.

You disregard this because, quite frankly, William E. Emba can never be wrong – especially when the bearer of his error message is someone he despises.

Go take an MMPI if you haven't done so lately.

And then get the help you need.

[william e emba]

Again, you write as if these discounts were offered in a vacuum.

Liar. I explicitly refer to standard profit-making business techniques, and how the current weak economy encourages businesses to seek new markets.

You write as if there were no negotiations between these corporations and the Badatz Yerushalyim and the even the Sicariim – but there were.

You haven't documented this one bit. I've pointed this out. You then rant and rave about lots of other things you've documented.

Here's an example of undocumented negotiations, quoted from your earlier article (linked to above):

Recycling, psychometric and more Haredim are offered one agora more per bottle to encourage them to recycle. The collection center in Jerusalem's haredi Mea Shearim neighborhood pays NIS 0.31 per bottle, compared with the normal rate of NIS 0.30. ELA Recycling Company says that this is a private initiative.

So, what exactly were the negotiations like? The Sicariim threatened to break all of ELA's bottles, or what, unless they got that whole whopping extra agora? The mind boggles--perhaps you can fill in some details.

Let me guess. You know so much about these negotiations because you personally were the go-between? "It would be a real shame if something happened to your recycling bins. Yeah, a real shame. You need some protection! Just like those stalls in Mahane Yehuda, I bet you inherited them from your alter zayde. I bet an extra agora a bottle would do a lot to keeping them protected. I mean, we all know protection isn't free. And remember, we never had this conversation."

A group that beats up customers of stores which refuse to do what the Sicariim want, that trashes these stores, harasses and even beats store owners and which is not punished by police and the courts for doing so creates a non-standard economy in which standard economic presumptions may not apply.

You've only documented this regarding issues regarding the Sicarist religion. You have not documented this one bit regarding prices. I've pointed out this repeatedly.

You disregard this because, quite frankly, William E. Emba can never be wrong – especially when the bearer of his error message is someone he despises.

I disregard the above instances for two reasons that I've stated quite clearly--you are, as usual, fully despicable in your habit of ignoring them. The reasons are, in case you continue to practice your stupidity: (1) every documented instance involves religious harassment, and (2) the discounts are entirely reasonable given the stagnant nature of the Israeli economy, the past buying habits of the haredim, and the easily distinguishable nature of the haredim.

Your non-stop continued failure to document one instance of haredim threatening a business with violence over pricing--while you keep coming up, at least once a week it seems now, of violence over religion, suggests that businesses really are trying to make a quick shekel after all.

At least twice in a row you've refrained from making up economic gibberish and from digging yourself deeper in that brand of stupidity. So you're learning, slowly.