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July 10, 2011

Orthodox Pro Polygamy Ad

Polygamy Ad 7-2011 Build up the Jewish population in Israel by having Jewish men marry an extra wife and solve the demographic imbalance between single men and women at the same time.

Originally published at 10:53 pm Saturday 7-9-11.

Published in the mainstream Israeli Orthodox Zionist publication Shabbat BeShabbato:

Polygamy Ad 7-2011

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Don't the Yemeni Jews in Israel already practice polygamy legally?

yemenites practice it in america too. come to brooklyn and lakewood and you will see it .

Yes! Where do I signup?

Yemeni and other non-Ashkenazi Jews who arrive in Israel with more than one wife, while in perpetual passive violation of Israeli law, are registered with all their wives and are not prosecuted.

The Lubavitcher Rebbe himself, writing that as an Ashkenazi he cannot give the ruling, encouraged an Algerian Jew who was childless to take a second wife to his first and gave him tips on how to get his first wife on board. The letter is published in Igarot ha-Kodesh and in any collection of the Rebbe's letters regarding Judean law or custom.

I see many girls spending years saying Tehillim all day long hoping for a good shidduch here in Israel and ultimately reaching their thirties, and the fact is that the guy they want is already married. If more Sepharadim would practice the poligamy permitted to them by marrying in a country permitting multiple wives and returning to Israel like a Hiloni from Cyprus, and if the Sanhedrin would lift the ban on Ashkenazim, this problem would be easily solved.

The frumma usually can't even support one wife and children. How do they propose to support multiple wives and their children? Suppose the frumma guy takes four wives and has ten children by each, he would then need to support 45 people. Who will pay?

As for Yemeni Jews, when they came to Israel their existing polygamous marriages were recognised but new ones were not.

Even though Rabbeinu Gershom's ban on polygamy has technically expired, monogamy has been the minhag for over 1000 years.

And after the whole Goel Ratzon cult got shut down, restrictions on polygamy should be enforced more strictly, not less strictly.


ONE wife is more than enough!!!!

For lazy Haredim who already live off the fat of the land, this is one crazy idea.

Hey Maskil, good to hear from you...

Can you cite the reference from the Rebbe's letters?

Can you get this translated please? How can I just believe what you write? Give me a source of who wrote it, what it says, etc.

In Israel, it is illegal to marry a second or additional wife with a punishment of five years imprisonment. The law specifically states that it doesn't matter if it is a civil or religious ceremony, it doesn't matter if the marriage has legal standing (for instance if the rav was mesader kiddushin without a marriage license)or nt, it doesn't matter if it is erusin or nissuin, and for an Israeli citizen, it doesn't matter if it takes place in Israel or chutz la'aretz. So if a noncitizen from Yemen or elsewhere comes to Israel with multiple wives, he is not in violation of the law, but once he is a citizen, he can not bypass the law by marrying another wife in chutz la'aretz and coming back.

As for halacha, an Ashkenazi is also allowed to marry multiple wives today, see emeslyaakov.com but if the first wife doesn't agree, then she will leave and he will effectively still only have one wife (if that).

Emeslyyakov? Maybe you should change your name to Shekerlyaakov. Your organization is scandalous.

They are right. They should stand up for their culture which allows polygamy.

This letter refers to a psak from Ovadia Yosef. so it is meant for the sefardic community, where polygamy has never been banned.

Polygamy is quite an interesting issue. It’s good to wander onto FM and see what new issue Shmarya has raised.

The ideal relationship between a man and a woman is where both complement each other as well as possible. I also think however that even with the best couples it is fine for the man and woman to have friends of the opposite sex. The key is for certain levels of intimacy to remain within the boundaries of the monogamous marriage. But it’s fine for a wife to have a male friend that they might enjoy doing some things with and vice versa. Living in any society requires interaction between the sexes. It’s all about responsibility. If a married woman seeks a driving license or attends a lecture it doesn’t mean that the physical proximity has to evolve to a sexual relationship. Sometimes we get some things from one person and some other things from another person. To expect our partners to be able to satisfy every intellectual or life need is impossible. This is the cause of much angst in marriages. The pressure to make everything perfect can blow things apart. When you decide to build a house the relationship with the architect is crucial, but you can get sub contractors in to help with other things that make the home a nice place to live in. Excluding sexuality, emotional intimacy and sharing one's deepest hopes, fears and dreams there is a fine line between what constitutes something that should remain within the confines of marriage and something that doesn’t have to. If you love and trust your partner enough you have no problem if she wants to go out and do things with other people within reason. It really is all about trust and communication.

What has all this got to do with polygamy ?

Well one of the times where it would be advisable would be if there was a lack of men in the marriage pool, say after a war or natural disaster in a community. (Contrast this with the bad situation in Asia and other places where female infanticide has been practised to favour male births. This has led to the opposite problem.)

A second case could be where a woman who cannot conceive for some reason yet still loves her husband accepts another woman into the circle because she could not procreate and the husband wants her around. This may also happen when adoption or IVF is not possible or not the referred course.

A third scenario is the interesting one. If by some blessing of G-d a man is extremely kind, empathetic, caring and financially well off he may be in a position to offer more than one woman a depth of love that they may not be able to find elsewhere. The man could also be the greatest tzaddik around who has tried to teach the other men in his midst what women need, yet they have not come up to his level. In this case two or more women may be able to benefit from his higher, greater, more bountiful form of loving expression. He would in fact be remiss if he did not try and take care of them. I think there are limits to this scenario though purely based on logistics and time motion, pardon the terribly clinical term. The old harem idea of the Sultan with 100 wives was ridiculous. There is no way known with 168 hours in a week that each of the “wives” could get the nurturing they require. On this count Solomon also became indulgent. David less so. (To give a bit of balance here, some Christian sects like the Mormons have had problems with too many wives in a polygamous set up as well. Animist tribes practised it too. The polygamy question has touched many faiths.)

For this third scenario to work it would also require a great level of trust, communication and negotiation between the adults involved. If I had to make a strict ruling on this I would say three wives maximum in a polygamous relationship.

Now to be fair we have to flip this around as well for these scenarios above. Can a woman have two husbands ? It doesn't sound right does it ? The men would not be able to handle it. Although in cases where one man became incapacitated the wife might feel that she would like a husband she could conceive with yet still have the first man around. The same rules would need to apply. There is something in the male psyche however that is very deep and primordial that says that men want their own seed to be propagated. Women really do hold the power in the reproduction stakes because they have a womb. The core male role is to be assertive and a woman receptive.

At the end of the day the sexual act is the most intimate of all things between a man and a woman. A good man or woman is naturally protective of such bonds. So polygamy may just be a case of a man having a bad case of grandiosity and ego. Ditto for the Amazon, Alpha Female, Sexual Conquistador Polygamists of the world.

I think I could have two wives but they would probably both kill me and I would end up with neither of them. Many women I know have some remarkable qualities, but the negotiations required for multiple wives would be headache inducing.

After all this musing Rudyard Kipling's "The Butterfly that Stamped" comes to mind.

Poor Solomon...

In chareidi circles like Lakewood it would automatically mean that it would be a double income home and therefore can be sustained financially.

What a great deal for the men! Two or more wives go to work to support a drone male who sits in Yeshiva all day and comes home intermittently to breed.

what is wrong with polygyny if that is what consenting adults want to do? The Torah does not forbid it and many people have lived happily in polygamous situatons. Polyandry (more than one man with one woman) is forbidden by the Torah.

I actually knew someone who grew up in Montana (or North Dakota or one of those states) in a polygamous radical Mormon family and she said that it was really wonderful being a kid in her family.

what is wrong with polygyny if that is what consenting adults want to do?

There is no problem as long as they don't expect taxpayers to support their lifestyle.

Will these proposed frumma polygamous arrangements be self supporting, or will the frumma expect the taxpayer to pay for their lifestyle?

Translation of ad text, comment, and update at http://mostlykosher.blogspot.com/

In the past...
I have seen too many instances of waiting until Mr Right[perfect] / Miss Right [perfect] come around (which will not happen)
When Mr / Miss Good Enough is available.

Will these proposed frumma polygamous arrangements be self supporting, or will the frumma expect the taxpayer to pay for their lifestyle?

Posted by: David
I hope that you have the same feelings about the millions of "babymama's and or "babydaddy's" across America (of all races-ok??-!!!) that have children with absolutely no idea of how to pay for them-outside of relying on the taxpayers-or is it only those dreaded orthodox jews that inspire your wrath-but all others would fall into that protected never to be touched category of "single mom's" that is the magic keyword for melting all opposition to whatever programs are needed to support THEIR shitty choices!!!

amazing how when it comes to a woman sucking a baby out of her womb, the libbs all scream "right to choose, right to choose-hands off our bodies!!!!"-but if consenting adults want to have more than one spouse, they are "cavemen"!!

The prohibition of having more than one spouse was passed by men to help men.
Having more than one wife sounds sexy and erotic, but in actuality, it would make most modern men miserable.
Imagine deAlng with the fights, the family politics, the errands. Imagine the fight over which relative' wedding to go to when they occur simultaneously, or which in-law to visit on passover.
It's hard enough to make one woman happy, imagine attempting two.

maskil

The Lubavitcher Rebbe himself, writing that as an Ashkenazi he cannot give the ruling, encouraged an Algerian Jew who was childless to take a second wife to his first and gave him tips on how to get his first wife on board.


Better he should have told the couple to go to a doctor the see what the problem was.

sometimes it is the man and no matter how many wifes he takes it makes no difference

Posted by: Critical minyan | July 10, 2011 at 08:01 AM


maybe it worked when woman just followed the men said nothing and did not think for themselves.

but now it would be almost imposable unless the wifes agree to no self identity

Chicago Sam,

I'm sorry, I don't have the books in front of me. Althoght the Igarot are online, it's not that easy to search the index volume when it's not in my hands. Anyone with the set, or a book with just a halachic-minhag collection (like I mentioned) should be able to locate it within 5 minutes with a simple subject-index search.

++Isa | July 10, 2011 at 07:14 AM++

In the past? You can see it every day on jdate.com. LOL!

I was recently reading the blog of a Muslim woman in a polygamous relationship. She also wrote an internet book about how to deal when your husband takes a second wife. What struck me was that the women had a perfectly natural reaction of jealousy when teh husband took an extra wife. It was like having your husband openly cheat on you and then having not only to accept the affair but have the mistress LIVE with you, etc. In short, it sounded like it was HELL for the women involved. And these were women generally socialized to accept polygamy as part of the holy Sunna (Halacha) of the Prophet. They felt like by accepting polygamy they were doing what G-d wanted. Islam also has restraints on polygamy, for instance, saying that the man must treat all wives equally and not play favorites. In reality, the men are just collecting wives to satisfy their lusts and the wives know this 100%. The result is a lot of depression and anger. To survive in this situation the women have to ultimately disengage emotionally from husbands they initially loved. They focus entirely on their children while the husband is off banging his newest wife. The husband also tends to put the children by earlier wives on the back burner which is also a source of frustration. The women basically end up like single parents after a divorce except they are living with their ex husband, his new wife and subsequent children while they are NOT allowed to date and find a new mate because they are still "married". The only way for a situation like this to work without the woman becoming angry and depressed when her husband takes a new wife is if the wife never loved the husband in the first place. This is more likely in an entirely arranged marriage but even in arranged marriages some love often manifests itself. When the husband takes a new wife it has the same impact on that woman as an affair and divorce. The emotions and possible reactions are basically the same. There have been cases in the Muslim world of wives murdering junior wives for this reason.

Update on this story: The people who paid for the ad were older religious single women who want children.

http://mostlykosher.blogspot.com/2011/07/we-might-as-well-declare-this-polygamy.html

too close to Detroit;

I like your style. I hope your vituperative eruptions of common sense don't get too many readers shorts in a bunch. Let's all Daven that Detroit is not the fate of America. Hopefully that mistake will be learned from.

Posted by: Treifalicious | July 10, 2011 at 09:49 AM

Food for thought.

There is a well known responsa from R. Yaakob Emden dealing with the status of the pilagesh for modern times, which he endorses.

WRT to the Vilna Gaon's liberal view, my ex was a direct descendant of the VG, and at at family reunion of the descendants, she discovered that the old VG had about 15 kids! I guess he used his spare time for something other than Torah study.

R. Emden & the VG were contemporaries and knew of each other. I think they would have loved the 60s.

seymour,

Better he should have told the couple to go to a doctor the see what the problem was.

sometimes it is the man and no matter how many wifes he takes it makes no difference

As a former Lubavitcher I can assure you that detail was not overlooked. I don't remember the letter verbatim, but it was crystal clear that the wife in that instance was not able to bear children. I remember part of the appeasement (in addition to commisioning the writing of a sefer torah in honor of his first wife, and giving a certain number of Franks to tzedakah regularily) was to explain that some souls enter this world not for the purpose of having children, and that this happens more commonly for women than for men, as well as explaining the spiritual significance of raising someone else's children especially if they are her husband's. As a man who was childless himself and whose wife was childless, the Rebbe was acutely aware of what the circumstances were - and scientific-medical proof together with halachic expertise were always staples of the Rebbe's approach to a halachic/medical situation. While many are ignorant this was not the case here.

The people who paid for the ad were older religious single women who want children.

Well, at least older Sepharadi religious single women - as one can see from the text of the post. At least they are realizing that the solution to the problem will not be found in the Tehillim or "divine providence" but in practical solutions already existing in halachah.

Maskil, "former Lubavitcher"?! Care to elaborate when?

Standard Lubavitch education from beginning of educational system (in my case, pre-kindergarten) thru mesivta, yeshiva gedola, shlichus & smicha. Not entered a Chabad-Lubavitch institution in nearly a decade. I own all the seforim, I was at the farbregnens, before the stroke, after the stroke, after gimmel Tammuz. If I had all of my possessions with me I'd have the seforim accessible. If I enter NY my first stop will be the Ohel. Other than that I do not care to elaborate on my personal biography.

Will these proposed frumma polygamous arrangements be self supporting, or will the frumma expect the taxpayer to pay for their lifestyle?

Posted by: David
I hope that you have the same feelings about the millions of "babymama's and or "babydaddy's" across America (of all races-ok??-!!!) that have children with absolutely no idea of how to pay for them-outside of relying on the taxpayers-or is it only those dreaded orthodox jews that inspire your wrath-but all others would fall into that protected never to be touched category of "single mom's" that is the magic keyword for melting all opposition to whatever programs are needed to support THEIR shitty choices!!!

Posted by: tooclose2detroit | July 10, 2011 at 07:37 AM

I am opposed to ALL taxpayer support of irresponsible lifestyles, not just that of the frumma. (I am a libertarian, not a leftist, BTW.)

With all the countries in the world where female infanticide takes place, there are more males out there -- solving imbalance = just a matter of switching around populations!

The Jewish ban on polygamy was a concession to living in majority Christian societies. There really haven't been all that many monogamous cultures in human history, excepting the Christian world.

I am opposed to ALL taxpayer support of irresponsible lifestyles, not just that of the frumma. (I am a libertarian, not a leftist, BTW.)

Posted by: David

Great-Objectivity, on this site, is a breath of fresh air!!!

too close to Detroit;

I like your style. I hope your vituperative eruptions of common sense don't get too many readers shorts in a bunch. Let's all Daven that Detroit is not the fate of America. Hopefully that mistake will be learned from.

Posted by: Yoel Mechanic

Thanks Yoel-but the future of America is not Detroit-well, not entirely-I believe it will be part Greece (bankruptcy, riots) and THEN ya throw in Detroit (people that REALLY know how to riot-will make the Greeks look like pikers)-it Ovomit wins, then he will continue to spend us into bankruptcy, and if a conservative wins and tries to keep us from going over the cliff, then the millions of those who have been fed for free by the gov for the last 50 yrs will go apeshit-nahh, never happen-I'm just paranoid-how many thousands of these types of clips do libbs have to see before they realize they have created the monster that will consume them-yeah, i know, i know-its me-I'm a paranoid racist-I know.
http://www.liveleak.com/view?i=6dc_1298588393

Posted by: tooclose2detroit | July 10, 2011 at 10:12 PM

You must be giddy that the powerhouse in philosophy and sociology Yoel Mechanic, agrees with your idiocy.

Posted by: tooclose2detroit | July 10, 2011 at 10:12 PM

Read this:

http://wonkette.com/449148/black-man-arrested-fired-from-job-for-trying-to-cash-large-check#more-449148

POST-RACIAL AMERICA
Black Man Arrested, Fired From Job For Trying To Cash Large Check
by Kirsten Boyd Johnson

Post-apocalyptic America has a few rules still, like “stay out of trailer parks at night,” and “personal mobility scooters are hilarious, in every context.” Did we have to say that? NO, on to the real issue: America also has some very awful rules, like “automatically assume a black man walking into a bank with a check probably stole it.” Ikenna Njoku is a black man who walked into his Chase bank to cash a check for $8,463 that Chase itself sent him as part of a tax rebate for being a first time home buyer. But per the rule, the teller found it suspicious the he was not poor or unemployed, and also black.

“She asked me what I did for a living,” Njoku said. “Asked me where I got the check from, looked me up and down—like ‘you just bought a house in Auburn, really?’ She didn’t believe that,” he said. So, Chase had him arrested.

The teller reported the check as a fake, which it was not, and THINGS SPIRALED OUT OF CONTROL. Hooray for post-racial America:

KING5.com reports:

Njoku was taken to jail on June 24, 2010, which was a Thursday. The next day, Chase Special Investigations, realized it was a mistake. The check was legitimate. The Investigator called Auburn Police and left a message with the detective handling the case, but it was her day off. So Njoku stayed in jail for the entire weekend. Finally, on Monday, he was released.

He said he also lost his job because he didn’t show up for work while he was in jail.

After all of that, Njoku said he never heard a word from Chase.

“They haven’t even sent me a letter or apologized,” he said. “It’s been a year we’ve been trying to contact these guys.”

This is your new Chase “customer service policy” starting today. And this guy only tried to cash a check; do not overdraw your checking account, because you do not want to know what happens then. [King5.com]

My pervasive libertarianism forces me to state that I believe polygamy (and polyandry) should be legal.

To Treifalicious,

Excellent points you raise.

Polyandry is prostitution, was never practiced in the Middle East, in fact, polyandry was practiced very little in the world, any anthropologist knows that.


The women themselves more easily accept polygyny. However, they refuse to polyandry

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