New Evidence, Contradictions, In Leiby Kletzky Murder Case
"The pictures were just the kid and the guy walking behind him," the attendant said. "The man had a hat with glasses. The little boy was dressed like the way they described him when they were looking for him." They were in the facility for only one to two minutes, said a second attendant who saw the video. "There was no pushing, no nothing. The little kid goes easily," the second attendant said.
'Killer' gave Leiby toxic mix of prescription drugs
DOUG AUER, WILLIAM J. GORTA and JENNIFER BAIN • New York Post
Accused child killer Levi Aron force-fed his 8-year-old victim a toxic cocktail of prescription drugs before smothering him with a bath towel, authorities said yesterday.
Leiby Kletzky had several narcotics in his system, including hydrocodone, the schizophrenia drug quetiapine, Tylenol and the muscle relaxant cyclobenzaprine, according to the city medical examiner's autopsy report.
Aron, 35, was slapped yesterday with two counts of first-degree murder, kidnapping and other charges by a Brooklyn grand jury. He faces a possible life sentence without parole if convicted.
"There was an intent to kill, and that's based on the ingestion of the medication," said Brooklyn DA Charles Hynes.
Investigators also spent four hours yesterday scouring newly discovered color surveillance video from a New Jersey gas station that shows Aron escorting Leiby to the bathroom late July 11 -- the last known images of the boy.
They were returning from a Rockland County wedding to which Aron bizarrely took Leiby after allegedly kidnapping him off a Brooklyn street that day.
"It gave me chills in my spine," said an attendant at the Sunoco station on the Palisades Parkway after looking at still images from the video, time-stamped 8:15 p.m. "I know the child is dead. It made me sad."
The footage shows Aron opening his car door for Leiby, and the two walking into the bathroom together.
"The pictures were just the kid and the guy walking behind him," the attendant said. "The man had a hat with glasses. The little boy was dressed like the way they described him when they were looking for him."
They were in the facility for only one to two minutes, said a second attendant who saw the video.
"There was no pushing, no nothing. The little kid goes easily," the second attendant said.
The footage then shows them leaving in a Honda, the second attendant said.
"It just looked like anyone else walking in and out. The child didn't look frightened," the first attendant said.
Later that night, they returned to Aron's attic apartment in Kensington.
The next day, June 12, Aron allegedly bound Leiby and left him "in a captive position" for 12 hours while he went to his plumbing-supply stockboy job.
"The boy had marks on his wrist that indicated at one point he was tied up," said Hynes, who added that Leiby's body showed no signs of sexual abuse.
Aron told cops he killed Leiby when he got home, in a "panic" over the intense search for the boy.
After allegedly smothering Leiby, Aron cut off his feet, placed them in garbage bags and put them in his freezer. He put the rest of the corpse in a suitcase he tossed in a garbage bin two miles away.
Aron was shirtless when cops stormed his apartment in the early hours of July 13. He led police to the body parts and fully confessed, police said.
Cops searching his East Second Street home yesterday removed children's clothing that do not belong to Leiby, police sources said.
But the NYPD said no other victims have been discovered.
"The only victim we are aware of is Leiby himself," said police spokesman Paul Browne.
Leiby stumbled into Aron on July 11, when he got lost after his parents let him walk alone from his Borough Park day camp for the first time.
Officials said that when Leiby asked Aron for directions, the predator instead drove off with the boy to the wedding.
The shocking new evidence was revealed hours after the Kletzky family walked a symbolic lap around their block to complete the traditional seven-day mourning period of shiva.
Additional reporting by Daniel Edward Rosen, Perry Chiaramonte and Danny Gold.
The Post says that "…Aron allegedly bound Leiby and left him 'in a captive position' for 12 hours while he went to his plumbing-supply stockboy job. 'The boy had marks on his wrist that indicated at one point he was tied up,' said Hynes, who added that Leiby's body showed no signs of sexual abuse."
But other reports say that Leiby may have remained in Aron's attic apartment voluntarily while Aron went to work that Tuesday, and all available information seems to show that Leiby went with Aron voluntarily after meeting him on the street and stayed with him voluntarily through Tuesday afternoon.
Aron – whose bizarre confession about taking the boy to a wedding in Monsey and then leaving him in his apartment Tuesday to watch TV while Aron worked was initially discounted by police – has turned out to have much more truth in it than anyone would have believed.
Aron also told police that he took Leiby from that street corner to go find the Jewish bookstore where Leiby was supposed to meet his mother who was supposed to be waiting for him outside it, but they could not find the store.
Eichler's – the bookstore where Leiby was supposed to meet his mother – is both huge and a neighborhood landmark, and there aren't many bookstores in Borough Park.
This part of Aron's story doesn't appear to make sense unless Leiby's mother wasn't waiting for him on the corner in front of Eichler's, which seems unlikely – but then so did taking the Leiby to the Monsey wedding.
There is clearly more to this story than the DA and NYPD have told us, and I think the idea that this was a stranger abduction is becoming less and less plausible the more we know.
he knew him a long time stop kidding ourselves it was reported in israel that levi aro ate shabbat at leiby's grandfather on shabbos a lot of times they knew each other
Posted by: unreal | July 21, 2011 at 08:35 AM
Do you the diffr, between, Aron, and the Police Captain, on "July 8, 2011".
If they would be sick, it would be Aron whom we would pray for, because he is a Yid.
If Aron's light went off on Shabbos, he would call in a Goy like the Captain, because Aron is special, and must celebrate God's resting on Shabbos.
Only Aron is entitled to have a Mezuzah to watch him from bad things.
Only Aron has a Yiddishe Hartz, and a Yiddishe Neshomo.
Posted by: Dave | July 21, 2011 at 08:44 AM
Any attorneies out there....
If there's pictures of them in New Jersey, can't a federal prosecutor become involved and prosecute for "over state lines" violations etc?
Posted by: R. Wisler | July 21, 2011 at 08:57 AM
If there's pictures of them in New Jersey, can't a federal prosecutor become involved and prosecute for "over state lines" violations etc?
Posted by: R. Wisler | July 21, 2011 at 08:57 AM
Yes.
Posted by: Shmarya | July 21, 2011 at 09:00 AM
if he took his across state lines to NJ then shouldnt the feds get involved ?
Posted by: yenta | July 21, 2011 at 09:03 AM
Sorry, 'attorneys'
Posted by: R. Wisler | July 21, 2011 at 09:04 AM
Not an attorney, however the fact that Leiby is seen on video, seemingly willingly following LE while they were in NJ might mean that there is no kidnapping at that point. The kidnapping charge, I believe, required evidence that he was taken unwillingly. That is the relevance of the ligature markings and the timeline indicates that that any restraining happened after they returned to NY.
Posted by: LkwdGuy | July 21, 2011 at 09:21 AM
Any thoughts about this new Leiby Kletzky Memorial Fund?
http://www.give2gether.com/projects/help-support-leiby-kletzky/
Posted by: FirstGenerationBavarianAmerican | July 21, 2011 at 09:27 AM
From the very few times that I agree to Shmarya's interpretation of a situation. I share his gut feeling that there is more to this story beneeth the surface.
Posted by: 'Yechiel' | July 21, 2011 at 09:40 AM
I'll agree this story is getting stranger. Even on VIN, the Yahoos are beginning to see the light.
There is something odd about the boy meeting up with Levi on the first day his parents gave him permission to walk by himself.
An 8-9 year old boy growing up in Boro Park knows exactly where Eichlers is and they know how to get there.
Plus, the family rehearsed his walking there.
Something is very odd here.
One thing is becoming clear, Levi Aron told the cops the truth about what he did with the kid.
The only piece missing is if this was set up in advanced.
Posted by: FM Fan | July 21, 2011 at 09:42 AM
When you lure an innocent trusting 9 year old boy into your car, then fool him into thinking that his maother was not waiting for him and that you would take him to her after you ran errands and attended a wedding, that is kidnapping to the fullest. The fact that he trasported him over state lines under these false pretenses constitues a federal crime. But since the murder took place in the same state as the abduction it is just more practicle to try him in state court. Personally I think that a nice long stay at an upstate Maximum Security State prison would be more therapuetic for Mr. Aron.
Posted by: Forty Eighter | July 21, 2011 at 09:44 AM
A surveillance video photo taken at night is not absolute proof that either were there. They could just have been a man and a boy who look similar. But there are a couple things which would be:
1. Credit card receipt for the gas purchased at the gas station on the Palisades Parkway in Englewood Cliffs, NJ.
2. EZ-Pass receipt showing toll collected (eastbound only) on the GW Bridge.
Posted by: Morris the Katz | July 21, 2011 at 09:45 AM
But since the murder took place in the same state as the abduction it is just more practicle to try him in state court.
That's false.
The murder is part and parcel of the kidnapping, and the feds can easily take the case.
Posted by: Shmarya | July 21, 2011 at 09:48 AM
Unfortunately, DA/NYPD will need to interview the parents to get closer to the bottom of this.
Posted by: Stan | July 21, 2011 at 09:50 AM
The Palisades Parkway in NJ is a controlled access highway that features gas station concessions/rest areas operated by Sunoco (Sun Oil). Most customers are New Yorkers, trying to buy cheaper NJ gas because there is less tax on it.
If I was 9 years old and being kidnapped I would have screamed at the top of my lungs once inside the rest area.
How did investigators know to go to that service station? Maybe the same credit card purchases account?
Posted by: FirstGenerationBavarianAmerican | July 21, 2011 at 09:55 AM
Unfortunately, DA/NYPD will need to interview the parents to get closer to the bottom of this.
Posted by: Stan | July 21, 2011 at 09:50 AM
Only if the Rabbis give them position to talk to them.
Posted by: FM Fan | July 21, 2011 at 09:56 AM
@FirstGeneration...
Yes, the credit card receipt would make the job easier. A search would reveal any credit cards Aron had. Even without it, Aron said he and the boy went to a wedding in Monsey. The investigators undoubtedly asked the route. The cops want to verify the story, so they check all the potential surveillance cameras along with way (and via the Tappan Zee, too, just in case Aron was lying). Aron said he went to Monsey? Had almost a full tank? Probably bought gas in NJ (much cheaper than NY). Bingo.
Posted by: Morris the Katz | July 21, 2011 at 10:20 AM
And in the meantime the "Daas Torah" spin continues. Agudath Israel Of America Inc. spinners simply can't help but try to spin Agudath Israel Of America Inc.'s position on reporting abuse to the authorities.
Just read Rabbi Yitzchok Adlerstein's comments on the Cross Currents blog to see how to spin. It's hard due to the latest audio tape, but still he tries. Now he states that "R’ Shmuel was not at his clearest in this presentation". But don't worry, we may have clarification in months/years "I will BEH try to speak to R Shmuel personally, but it will probably have to wait till the next time I am in Philly."
They try to spin Agudath Israel Of America Inc.'s clear position of not reporting to police and Rav Feinstein's confirmation that no beit din has referred a case to the civil authorities. Accordingly, Rabbi Adlerstein is either misinformed, ignorant or intentionally misleading his readership:
http://www.cross-currents.com/archives/2011/07/14/yadeinu-shafchu-es-hadam-hazeh/comment-page-2/#comments
Kevin
July 14, 2011 at 2:47 pm
> It is time to bury the myth that there is a serious halachic barrier to going to authorities to deal with credible reports of such behavior.
Rabbi Adlerstein, them’s fighting words. The Agudah’s official policy, stated at a recent conference, is that one should “consult a rabbi before going to law enforcement authorities with suspicions of sexual abuse committed by community members.” See this article in the Forward for details: http://www.forward.com/articles/138131/#ixzz1NQNya8k0
Quote: “Rabbi David Zwiebel, Agudah’s executive vice president, told the conference that even mandated reporters… should consult a rabbi before going to the police.”
I commend you for your brave position and for your demand for a shift in communal attitude. One hopes that your words also be unambiguously directed at those most responsible for cultivating this attitude.
Kevin Gold
July 14, 2011 at 2:55 pm
Rabbi Adlerstein is right, but late. Rabbi Michael Broyde and Rabbi Moshe Soloveichik have been saying this for years and all of us knew it was correct and yet, Agudah issued a report saying ask a shayla first. For an excellent short video on this, see the link on the torahmusings website.
Yitzchok Adlerstein
July 15, 2011 at 12:59 pm
I fear that you are giving me credit that I am unwilling to take, in combatting a problem I don’t think exists.
I don’t go to the Forward for information about a community its staff is not equipped to understand. I do know Rabbi Zwiebel, and have nothing but the highest regard for him. Our views intersect far more often than they diverge. I cannot believe that he would tell people not to comply with any mandated reporting requirements, period.
My understand of his position is that abuse should be reported to the authorities. There is no halachic barrier to this; enough poskim have stated this forcefully here and in Israel. He does believe that people do not always know whether what they have seen, overheard, or been told by a friend of a child is a genuine problem that falls under the mandated reporting statute and warrants triggering the response that will come from the authorities. Parents, teachers, social workers in the non-Jewish world also face similar questions. Those who have access to experienced friends and wiser authorities know enough to consult them to make a proper determination. To the best of my knowledge, Rabbi Zwiebel’s position, and that of Agudah, is the following: Many forms of abuse are clear cut and unambiguous. They ought to be reported to the proper authorities, not to rabbis. Where there is ambiguity, people should check. Check with rabbonim who are experienced, and not afraid to call the authorities. But people should check. (Many years ago, one of our kids went through a period of time when he cried loudly and for long periods of time. Parents call it colic. Who knows? One day, we heard a rapping on our rear woman. A strange woman stood outside, demanding to see the baby. My wife spoke with her. She was a pediatric nurse, and had seen much abuse. She kept hearing this crying baby, and her conscience wouldn’t let her remain silent. My wife believed her, and showed her a very pink, plump and unabused baby. She was satisfied, and apologized for the intrusion. What if she had called Child Protection, and they would have pulled up in front of the house, and – decades ago, before they were as experienced, decided to take the baby in, or my wife in? Baruch Hashem, she decided to check before bringing down the full force of authority. Today, he is post-Kollel and has a family of his own. On the other hand, people witness and hear about unambiguous things and decide to take no action, or stifle investigation, or stymie authority. Those people are the heavies, and continue to ruin lives.)
I do not disagree with that position. I could not verify it with R Zwiebel, because he is out of the country and email range – at least to me. I did verify it with others close to him.
Not everyone agrees with this position. Not all who say they agree are willing to actually act on it, when push comes to shove. And too many are still willing to use their power to intervene for a relative or friend and thwart the efforts of everyone else. Those groups were the target of my piece, not Agudah.
Yitzchok Adlerstein
July 17, 2011 at 4:22 am
I think that all you have done is shifted the semantics. Now we have to decide what “reasonable cause” is. Knowing Rabbi Zwiebel, I find it hard to believe that he would advocate anything remotely suggesting illegality. I assume that his bottom line is that when in doubt about this “reasonable cause,” consult someone who can help you make the proper decision.
I don’t know the NY statute. In California, mandated reporters have a full 24 hours to file a report. Child Protection has a hot line to help people determine whether or not they should make such a report, and they often tell people that they should not, but continue to keep their eyes open. I don’t know why it should be any worse for people within that 24 hours to ask rabbonim who have worked with Child Protection in the past, and have demonstrated their non-reluctance to go to the authorities. Perhaps I look at things through rose-colored lenses, because in LA we have a group of rabbonim who have worked so closely with child protection agencies that they enjoy mutual trust and cooperation.
Yitzchok Adlerstein
July 17, 2011 at 7:45 pm
I don’t think it would take very long to compile such a registry.
It is not helpful to ignore that in some cases, there are halachic issues about cases that do not require mandated reporting, but perhaps should still be reported. Not all professionals will agree about these cases, either. Halacha cannot be ignored, not does it have to be. I disagree about the shvil hazahav. I think it is doable, just as it was done here in LA.
I will meet you half way. If I had to refer a concerned citizen in another city whose rabbonim I did not know, I would call several frum professionals with experience in these issues. I would only call those whom I knew to be solid bnei and bnos Torah, with unstinting devotion to halacha, and some advanced Torah learning. BH, we have men and women like that in most cities. I would ask them for the names of rabbonim in their city who know, understand, and have dealt with the issues, and are not afraid to refer to the authorities.
I cannot believe that LA is the only major city blessed with such professionals and such rabbonim
Moshe
July 19, 2011 at 9:45 am
R Adlerstein,
By now I am sure that you are aware of a audio recording circulating on the internet in which a voice identified as R. Shmuel Kasminetsky speaking a few weeks ago, states repeatedly that individuals must not go to the police with information about abuse with out first consulting a rav, who in turn should investigate the matter and consult with other rabbonim. Now this may be a fake, but that is a davar she-efshar le-varer. If not intentionally or not you have just attacked R. Shmuel. The speaker in the tape clearly falls into the category of those rabbis “who dont get it” in your words. Will you stand by your words if this tape is confirmed?
Josh Werblowsky M.D.
July 19, 2011 at 10:47 pm
Rabbi Adlerstein I highly respect you.
However I listened to the Agudah audio.Near the end of Rabbi Gottesman’s lecture there is discussion about mandated reporters.It is better not to quote others and decide for yourself.That is all you had to say.With regard to the Torah Journal,Yeshurun,I only spoke about the issue of going to Rabbis first, because that was what your main article was about.I was not giving a summary of the entire journal.Of course it is very positive that they state there is no mesirah when there is “raglaim ladavar.”
With regard to automatic responses by legal aythorities that is not the general case.First the case may not even be accepted by the child protective services or social services.And then even if investigated it is up to them to decide ,if there is a case to send to the legal authorities.This is similar to what you have stated about their reluctance.
Yitzchok Adlerstein
July 20, 2011 at 1:05 am
I certainly will, because I certainly did not mean R Shmuel shlit”a. R’ Shmuel was not at his clearest in this presentation. You can tell that by his hedging about mandated reporting. He was not up on its parameters, so could hardly be giving the definitive last word on his position. I don’t want to put words in his mouth, any more than you shouldn’t in mine, but I believe that he just meant to emphasize that the decision to report should not always be made without taking into account the wisdom of experience. I am not going to repeat once more whom I had between my cross-hairs; I’ve said that clearly enough. It did not include R Shmuel, the Novominsker, or others – even others whom I might disagree with. I will BEH try to speak to R Shmuel personally, but it will probably have to wait till the next time I am in Philly. If he did mean “ask a rabbi,” – and at the moment I can’t believe he would say that – I will try my best to argue that the average rabbi is in no position to add any light, and time has shown is likely to do the opposite. In those situations where there is ambiguity and the need to ask, only rabbis with significant experience and working in concert with professionals should be consulted.
That said, if you want me to affirm that if R Shmuel said that I am wrong that I will publicly say “I was wrong,” consider it affirmed. Everyone needs one or two Torah personalities to whom he defers. In my case, I can say that about two people, and one of them is R Shmuel. (I would have to hear it from him in person, though, with a chance to offer opposing arguments.)
Yitzchok Adlerstein
July 20, 2011 at 1:07 am
I still haven’t listened. But assume you are correct. What is it that you would like me to say or clarify? It is not clear to me. I think that I have made my position clear in some of the other comments.
Posted by: jewishwhistleblower | July 21, 2011 at 10:26 AM
I have heard rumors that Leiby had some learning problems. Can anyone confirm this assertion? This does make sense however since he missed the 13th Avenue intersection - a very obvious place to turn right. I have a slightly younger granddaughter who has such issues and I would never let her walk anywhere by herself even two blocks.
Posted by: reb chaim | July 21, 2011 at 10:31 AM
>But other reports say that Leiby may have remained in Aron's attic apartment voluntarily while Aron went to work that Tuesday, and all available information seems to show that Leiby went with Aron voluntarily after meeting him on the street and stayed with him voluntarily through Tuesday afternoon.
"Voluntarily" is not a simple matter. Did Jaycee Dugard stay "voluntarily" for 18 years, even after the guard had been let down?
Also, there is clearly a spectrum of savviness and awareness among kids. Some 8 year olds in Borough Park would of course be able to navigate the streets themselves. Others would not be able to, despite having done it a thousand times accompanied by their parents or siblings. Everyone suggesting that an almost 9-year old could not possibly get lost in Borough Park has sadly forgotten what it was like being an 8 year old, the good, the bad, and the confused.
>he knew him a long time stop kidding ourselves it was reported in israel that levi aro ate shabbat at leiby's grandfather on shabbos a lot of times they knew each other
What does "reported in Israel" mean? How do they know "in Israel"?
The NYPD is not going to cover up the evidence they discover for political reasons, because it will come out in court. Aside for the criminality involved in messing with evidence, they also do not want to fuck up this prosecution. You think Aron's attourneys are going to let the NYPD play with the evidence? Please. The fact that every couple of days a dribble or two of new info is leaked which sheds new light does not mean that they were lying and covering things up from the beginning. This is how investigations work. It's like putting together a puzzle - they have more pieces this week then last week, and they'll have more next week.
Posted by: Graham | July 21, 2011 at 10:31 AM
he knew him a long time stop kidding ourselves it was reported in israel that levi aro ate shabbat at leiby's grandfather on shabbos a lot of times they knew each other
Posted by: unreal | July 21, 2011 at 08:35 AM
link please
Posted by: seymour | July 21, 2011 at 10:53 AM
The Boyan summer camp needs to answer as to how they can possibly release an 8 year old to go home alone.
No summer camp should ever release a child of that age accept to a parent or guardian (or someone nominated in writing by the parent or guardian) with no exception. Anyone responsible for the care of a child should know this. Secondly one needs one adult (not some 14 year old girl) for every eight children to properly supervise children of that age while they are in your care including ensuring that they leave with their parent or guardian.
Unfortunately many of these camps have as much respect of regulations for child safety as they have for fire safety, ie as an unnecessary expense which depletes the profits that can be passed on to the rebbe's Swiss bank account.
Posted by: Barry | July 21, 2011 at 10:53 AM
I have reason to believe that the kid himself was also a bit slow etc. (I know the family a little).
This changes two things:
1)It may have been wrong from the parents to allow the kid to walk alone, even a few blocks.
2)Chances are that at least some of the drugs found in his system were not force-fed by the killer, but by the parents or 'Chedder'.
A simple way to investigate this would be getting a hold of Leiby's grades in school. His medical record might help, also..
Posted by: Chassidic Whistleblower | July 21, 2011 at 10:58 AM
I will agree that there is alot more to the story that the police are not revealing.
There is probably a good reason why the police are not telling everything they know.
1- in an effort to spare the Kletsky family from any further suffering than necessary.
2- to prevent evidence from being tainted
3- the cops will probably reveal these details during the trail, so the evidence can be discussed in a court of law instead of in the tabloids.
Posted by: Motti | July 21, 2011 at 11:02 AM
Does anyone know if it is common practice for NYPD to circulate photos of missing children to such places as highway gas stations?
If so, Shomrim's delay in calling NYPD is even more heinous.
Posted by: Zanibol | July 21, 2011 at 11:02 AM
Deremes and 48er,
Still think NYPD shouldn't have been notified earlier?
Those 2 hours spent dithering by Shomrim BP, maybe, MAYBE, an Amber alert could have nabbed this guy on the bridge, or at the gas station?
Maybe...but that's the point, these are things that Shomrim DO NOT KNOW and shouldn't be making assumptions about. ITS NOT THEIR JOB!
Posted by: fed up | July 21, 2011 at 11:05 AM
I dont agree with the shomrim on every issue , but they are not to blame for leiby's death. The only one to blame is the barbaric murderer levi aron yemach shemoh.
Posted by: Motti | July 21, 2011 at 11:06 AM
lets assume that leiby was either not that bright or very naive and trusting
he misses 13 and walks to 18 avenue where he meets aron aron maybe tell shim your parents want me to take care of you for a day or two and even takes him to a wedding to show him the whole story is true
so leiby trust him and does not run away
Posted by: seymour | July 21, 2011 at 11:06 AM
My sources have said from the beginning that Leiby knew Levi Aron. He recognized him from the store he worked in. When you're 8, that means you know him -- and all too often believed that the person could be blindly trusted.
Posted by: Vicki Polin | July 21, 2011 at 11:08 AM
Not an attorney, however the fact that Leiby is seen on video, seemingly willingly following LE while they were in NJ might mean that there is no kidnapping at that point.
It most certainly is kidnapping inasmuch as he has taken a minor child without parental permission.
Posted by: Nigritude Ultramarine | July 21, 2011 at 11:10 AM
the whole not going to the police because of mesira is BS
halacha was not created in a vacuum or bubble.
Once the rebbies (idiots) see there is a problem they can easily come up with a a workaround, lime they do for many other things.
One is not permitted to carry on shabbos, so to make live more convenient they come up that a string is a aruv so you can carry. Or selling your chumatz for passover, and many more.
So these geniuses who came up with these workaround for so many problems cannot think of a workaround for misra when children lives are involved?
BS I think Mesira is a smoke scream for something mush more disturbing, what I do not know but we will find out someday
Posted by: seymour | July 21, 2011 at 11:13 AM
I dont agree with the shomrim on every issue , but they are not to blame for leiby's death. The only one to blame is the barbaric murderer levi aron yemach shemoh.
Posted by: Motti | July 21, 2011 at 11:06 AM
they are not to blame of course
however, calling the police might have prevented aron from killing this boy
there was no reason not to call the police.
hopefully a lesson learned
or they suspected a yid pick him up and did not want to involve the police for a molestation issue (would not want to be mosser would they) but after a few hours realized there is more to the story.
I hope it was just stupidity or negligence and not my second thought
Posted by: seymour | July 21, 2011 at 11:21 AM
It most certainly is kidnapping inasmuch as he has taken a minor child without parental permission.
Like I said, I am not an attorney and for good reason. You are obviously correct. NYS Penal Law 135 reads in part: A person is so moved or confined "without consent" when such
is accomplished by (a) physical force, intimidation or deception, or (b)
any means whatever, including acquiescence of the victim, if he is a
child less than sixteen years old or an incompetent person and the
parent, guardian or other person or institution having lawful control or
custody of him has not acquiesced in the movement or confinement.
Posted by: LkwdGuy | July 21, 2011 at 11:33 AM
everybody seems to ask why leaby did not run
why should he, maybe aron treated him nicely let him watch TV took him on a trip and so on. Maybe he told leiby I am just baby sitting till your parents get back home another word leiby was having a good time and did not see the danger. he was only 8 or 9 years old and maybe very trusting and naive.
Aron might have been telling the truth he was just spending time with leiby but then noticed, boy am I in trouble and only then decide to kill leiby but up until then leiby had no real concern .
rememberer we are trying to get into the mind of an 8 year old and what one thinks the mind of someone who is mentally ill
Posted by: seymour | July 21, 2011 at 11:35 AM
Shomrim's delay in calling "NYPD" IS heinous.
why call a few putzs when your child is missing.
Posted by: Jewish Prince | July 21, 2011 at 11:40 AM
Why was Leiby so "open" ?
Why did he follow Levi Aron the way he did ?
What happened to little Leiby over the previous four and a half years ?
Do people know that abusers have used the term "After eight too late !" because at 9 a child's consciousness is different and things do not stay repressed from memory as easily ?
How much truth can everyone handle at the moment ?
Do people realize that to defeat evil you have to engage with it ?
Denial has been the ultimate killer of purity, innocence and freedom since the dawn of time. A completely new paradigm is called for. G-d sends messages and tests to us all the time. When we ignore them we suffer. I am not sure if people understand the true importance of the Leiby Kletzky case.
Prayers for little Leiby. I hope he is playing with the angels in heaven right now.
Posted by: Adam Neira | July 21, 2011 at 11:44 AM
seymour: The boy was tied up for 12 hours while Aron went to work. The news reports that only when Aron returned did he panic. But what else would he have done? He had kidnapped and tied up the kid or 12 hours and had to know he would be going to prison. I think he only panicked in that he wanted to keep the boy alive longer for disgusting purposes.
Posted by: effie | July 21, 2011 at 11:47 AM
""Deremes and 48er,
Still think NYPD shouldn't have been notified earlier?
Those 2 hours spent dithering by Shomrim BP, maybe, MAYBE, an Amber alert could have nabbed this guy on the bridge, or at the gas station?
Maybe...but that's the point, these are things that Shomrim DO NOT KNOW and shouldn't be making assumptions about. ITS NOT THEIR JOB!
Posted by: fed up | July 21, 2011 at 11:05 AM"""
Here is what i think:
From your comment on another thread it seems like you have a grudge ONLY against the BP Shomrim perhaps you had a falling out with them. But that's irrelevant to the story.
The NYPD has protocols and they will only do stuff by the book. Shomrim is all volunteer with a tiny bit of training all and all they serve a good purpose for the community.
Hella winston claims that a police source told her that the first 3 hours is key to an investigation.And Shomrim who likes to play cops and robbers waited 3 hours to call the police.
Ok.So my question is as following:
The mother called Shomrim about 5:30-6 i suppose they dispatched some member's and once night fell and no success they called the cops about 9:pm.
What in heavens name did the cops do ALL night to find the child?
Couldn't they call EVERY store on 13th ave to OPEN the store immediately to check surveillance or if the child was locked in the store by mistake? A private citizen Mr.German had an idea to go to the school in midnight to check the cameras which the cops didn't do.
In the morning again is was the same Mr German who went first thing and begged with a store "The childrens place" to let him view the cameras and then went to HSBC.
How come the NYPD didn't do the same?
Where are we here,in Sudan? Is this whats expected when a child goes missing to go ONLY by protocols?
When the search was on in full swing the child was still alive.Don't you think if the cops would go out in full force without their protocols that the child might of been found alive.The NYPD has one of the best detectives and they couldn't of found the dead body without the help of Shomrim
Who gave the license plates for the police? Again,2 young brothers and it is ALL because Shomrim turned the city upside down without protocols and without their own command center but had to bring in one from Flatbush.
I would like to get a serious answer without any name callings.
Posted by: Deremes | July 21, 2011 at 11:51 AM
Those 2 hours spent dithering by Shomrim BP, maybe, MAYBE, an Amber alert could have nabbed this guy on the bridge, or at the gas station?
I suggest you familiarize yourself with AA
1) There has to be an abduction (which they didnt know for sure
2) they need the suspects info, like car he drives... again they didnt know at that time
Posted by: IJust ReadItForTheArticles | July 21, 2011 at 12:05 PM
To Deremes,
Don't blame the cops for what unfolded. They are not the ones responsible for the death of Leiby Kletzky. Blame should be apportioned elsewhere.
Posted by: Adam Neira | July 21, 2011 at 12:11 PM
The Boyan summer camp needs to answer as to how they can possibly release an 8 year old to go home alone.
Posted by: Barry | July 21, 2011 at 10:53 AM
Barry is 100% correct - I dont care if the parents signed a letter, had it notarized & medallion guaranteed, and blessed by 10 rabbis - no way should a camp allow a kid that age to walk out unsupervised. If I had asked my kids' school or day camp to allow that, they wd look @ me like I was from Mars & politely decline. But then again - is Mars much different than Boro Park?
Posted by: Stan | July 21, 2011 at 12:15 PM
Curious if the murderer says that he was concerned about being seen with Leiby On Tuesday eve after work, in order to let him go. why didn't he just open the door and let him out. or why not shave off the boys payos, put on a baseball cap on them, and no one would have noticed. what is his point in saying that? More evil? make people feel even worse?
Re: Shomrim, you shouldn't say the police wont' come for 2 hours, so what you call and carry on what you are doing.
Posted by: Adam | July 21, 2011 at 12:16 PM
Adam Neira:
The cops are not to be blamed.
The point i was trying to make was about Shomrim that some people with a certain agenda are putting the blame on Shomrim that they waited 3 hours to call the cops and it proves that those 3 hours doesn't mean anything. The cops have a system how they operate in an investigation which is highly professional.
The hundreds and thousand of volunteers that came out through the call of Shomrim made it that the cops put in more man power then usual but still without Shomrim the body would of NEVER been found.
I am still waiting for anyone to answer
Posted by: Deremes | July 21, 2011 at 12:21 PM
maybe aron treated him nicely let him watch TV took him on a trip and so on. Maybe he told leiby I am just baby sitting till your parents get back home another word leiby was having a good time and did not see the danger. he was only 8 or 9 years old and maybe very trusting and naive.
Posted by: seymour | July 21, 2011 at 11:35 AM
And also lets not forget that Leiby grew up in a chasidish bubble (no TV, no internet, no secular newspapers - not a very worldly lot) - even if he had a 150 IQ he probably had little knowledge of stranger danger or any idea who Elizabeth Smart or Jaycee Dugard are. furthermore, the idea of a road trip upstate & then the forbidden TV probably closed the deal in his mind.
Posted by: Stan | July 21, 2011 at 12:21 PM
I'm still troubled by the use of the word "voluntary" to describe Leiby's being with Aron.
He was only 8! At this point, we really don't know if he was lied to by Aron, if he was threatened, if he had no idea what to do because he didn't know where he was, or if he was simply overwhelmed. It's not like this child simply decided that he didn't want to be with his family. He wasn't used to being on his own, it wasn't a high-crime area, and some children are naturally quiet and wouldn't scream if they hadn't been taught to do so.
There are plenty of situations where children are being coerced, but don't necessarily scream and yell at the first opportunity. Elizabeth Smart and Jaycee Duggart are just two high-profile examples.
Posted by: JRKmommy | July 21, 2011 at 12:22 PM
Posted by: Deremes | July 21, 2011 at 12:21 PM
nobody is saying for sure it would have but one thing it certain it would have made the search better
and that is the point
what if a policeman just was driving on aron block when he walked in with leiby, what if the others would have reported attempted addiction and one of the policeman who took the report said lets go check him out
sadly we will never know
it could have
Posted by: seymour | July 21, 2011 at 12:39 PM
JRK: maybe demented Aron rationalized to himself - "Well, if parents & Day Camp think it's ok & Leiby is mature enuf to walk streets of Bklyn alone, then perhaps Leiby is mature enuf to decide on his own to come w/ me "voluntarily"
Posted by: Stan | July 21, 2011 at 12:39 PM
I smell gas should i call shomrin and what till they give me permission to go to con ed
in addition I just had a gas line installed by a frum plummer should I go to a beis dein first since what if he made a error of cut corners I do not want to be desecrate the most important thing in Jewish halacha it is so important it supersedes the commandment of providing safety to our children
mosser
Posted by: seymour | July 21, 2011 at 12:43 PM
Well, I am a lawyer. A federal charge cannot be a lesser included offense of a state prosecution. So a federal charge of kidnapping would definitely not be included as a lesser included offense for a state charge of murder. The jurisdiction of the most serious charge, i.e. the murder, would likely get the first shot and the state would prosecute first. Doesn't mean the feds lose their cause of action, but they probably won't prosecute. State incarceration facilities are much rougher than federal institutions.
Posted by: dh | July 21, 2011 at 12:50 PM
NYPD is best police dept in world. Nah!!!Let's not get them involved - it might embarrass the community if word gets out (1) that we let an 8 yr old walk home alone from day camp or (2) he is grabbed up by another yid.
After Aron is sentenced to life w/out parole, any charges on the Day Camp for endangering welfare of a minor???
Posted by: Stan | July 21, 2011 at 12:53 PM
To Stan,
"And also let’s not forget that Leiby grew up in a chasidish bubble (no TV, no internet, no secular newspapers - not a very worldly lot) - even if he had a 150 IQ he probably had little knowledge of stranger danger or any idea who Elizabeth Smart or Jaycee Dugard are. furthermore, the idea of a road trip upstate & then the forbidden TV probably closed the deal in his mind."
A child brought up well has a very good sense of personal boundaries, irrespective of whether or not it is a religious or secular household. A pure, innocent and free child has an innate sense of right and wrong. They are extremely good at sensing and responding to danger. They know who and what situations to avoid. Being too "open" and trusting of others can be as much a problem as not trusting enough. It is also a sign of something else. There is no way known my son will be in a situation like this.
I would really like to know what has been going through the mind of Leiby's father whilst he was sitting shiva. Will the detectives talk to the parents ? Will their desire to find out the truth override the need for “sensitivity” ? The universe is pivoting right now.
P.S. If a tooth is aching you need to get to the root of the problem to fix it for good.
Posted by: Adam Neira | July 21, 2011 at 12:54 PM
go to frum web site and they are shocked at the out pouring of love awarenesses to their community about the leaby story.
why shock?
I guess to them others do not count so they assume everybody is the same
Posted by: seymour | July 21, 2011 at 12:54 PM
To JRKmommy,
You are either being naive, disingenous or simplistic in your reasoning.
Again, what is the correct chronology of the connection between Leiby Kletzky and Levi Aron ?
Posted by: Adam Neira | July 21, 2011 at 12:59 PM
seymour,
Right we will never know. But the fact is that the cops do NOT work on an instant unless its a robbery in progress. Where Shomrim does everything immediately and the points that i made are very hard to answer.
Here again with your obsession:
""go to frum web site and they are shocked at the out pouring of love awarenesses to their community about the leaby story.
why shock?
I guess to them others do not count so they assume everybody is the same""
So please tell us how emotionally you are overtaken when someone in Mississippi got murdered or in bed sty,hu?
Posted by: Deremes | July 21, 2011 at 01:09 PM
Posted by: Deremes | July 21, 2011 at 12:21 PM
Sorry, but regardless of your good arguments, after the Shomrim searched the surrounding area and didn’t find the child, I would say that not more than a half-hour should pass without notifying the police. That said we do not know if anything would have changed the outcome, but let me tell you volunteers are not unique to the Jewish community, I have seen many abduction were hundreds came out to help searching the neighborhood, and they all work in conjunction with the police and experts in the field of searching grid by grid. The only argument you could make that the Jewish response was far greater than any others were.
Please allow me to defend Seymour; you seem to misjudge his tenacity with callousness. We all feel bad for every victim, in particular a child, should the child live in Bedford Stuyvesant, or Mississippi. Nevertheless, the pain for a family member is far greater, than someone, you do not consider family. In the same vein, it should not be a revelation that others who are not Jewish feel our pain too.
Posted by: OMG | July 21, 2011 at 01:56 PM
OMG,
Not that i needed any support for my arguments but thanks anyways.
Posted by: Deremes | July 21, 2011 at 02:02 PM
Deremes,
Interesting that you end your post with the assumption that I will call you names, after starting your post hurling an unfounded accusation at me.
So on the basis of 2 posts you have definitively determined that I carry a grudge? Hum, as I said previously, it seems only you are capable of rationally, impartially stating an opinion while the rest of us have an 'agenda'.
For the record, I have nothing to do with Shomrim BP and never have had. But I have observed them, through several incarnations, and have, shall we say, 'acquaintances ' that are members of BP, CH, Willy, and Flatbush. And from my observations I conclude, in my opinion of course, they are the least professional, most 'top heavy' (if you now what I mean), media/PR driven of all the chapters.
And, I will add (with your permission of course), this opinion is shared by more than a few of the members. Let's say hard workers don't appreciate that there are people that are quick to show up when the cameras and lights are on but not to be found when the dirty work has to be done.
That having been said, I don't know where you got the impression that I have a grudge. I think they are a fine civilian patrol organization and I never posted ANYTHING to the contrary. BUT, THEY ARE NOT LAW ENFORCEMENT and they shouldn't get the impression that they are.
I was careful to add the word MAYBE when speculating what difference those 2-2 1/2 hours may have made. I don't know if it could have. BUT YOU AND SHOMRIM DON'T KNOW FOR CERTAIN THAT IT WOULD NOT HAVE HELPED. That's the point...you are not qualified to determine and make decisions that COULD COST LIVES.
And, if you conclude there was no need to rush to call PD because, 'hey, you see, it was German who did the real work', then, following that logic, there was NO NEED TO CALL SHOMRIM. German was working totally independent of everyone, involved because that's the type of guy he is and he had a personal stake in it (his son was LK's Rebbi). So don't try to co-opt German to Shomrim, it's not the facts.
I will be happy to join the chorus and congratulate Shomrim on launching and help coordinate a massive search. Tremendous, spectacular. We need them and we should support them. I'm serious. BUT, they need to 'bring it down a notch'. They are a civilian volunteer patrol, not the FBI, not the secret service.
And we have managed to pull off massive searches for lost kids (Suri Feldman) before there was a credible Shomrim to coordinate. They are not the be all and end all.
They are not indispensable...certain 'people' need to come back down to earth before they destroy all the FINE,WONDERFUL work done by so many members.
Posted by: fed up | July 21, 2011 at 02:20 PM
To JRKmommy, You are either being naive, disingenous or simplistic in your reasoning.
I feel the exact same way about you, Adam. In fact, I believe JRKmommy is one of the few people here with common sense.
Posted by: effie | July 21, 2011 at 02:30 PM
a yid will give you a teretz. shomrim didn’t call nypd because they ‘knew they wouldn’t come right away.’ gemaralogic 101. if they wouldn’t come right away, then ya gotta call them earlier, not later.
having said that…I wouldn’t blame the shomrim. aren’they the folks ya call when you don’t wanna call the police? no blame here, but if the parents wanthe police to be called, why not do it themselves?
Posted by: flailed | July 21, 2011 at 02:33 PM
then again, maybe not. shomrim should be shomrim regardless.
Posted by: flailed | July 21, 2011 at 02:33 PM
if we have a jew like smarya who needs HITLER
Posted by: yitchuk rosenberg | July 21, 2011 at 02:41 PM
The only reason i mentioned a grudge becuase you throw in that they had to rely on the Flatbsuh shomrim
I don't speak for Shomrim. What i say is all from the facts in this case.
If you think that i said that it was no rush to call the Police,you misunderstood me. I just said how it went all down and yes we will never know IF the police would of been called right away what the outcome would of been.
Next time a call gets in to Shomrim that a child is missing for 30 minutes i bet they will call the police immediately. And i also bet that should Shomrim sit idol (which they will never do because a child is missing) and wait for the police to respond and ask a million questions will see how fast a heavy search the police will begin.
And my point wasn't really about Shmorim,German or any other individuals who helped. My point was about how the Police works with a system and the system FAILED in this case.
The child was alive all day long Tuesday and if not German,the two brothers who got the plate number who knows if the body would of ever been found.
So far i have two people who agree somewhat with my arguments.
Posted by: Deremes | July 21, 2011 at 02:42 PM
++wait for the police to respond and ask a million questions will see how fast a heavy search the police will begin++
Shouldn't Shomrim leadership (the Incident Commander, as is the official term), who work with the police regularly, have known what questions the police would be asking, maybe even have blank police report forms in advance, and have those facts written out, so when the cops arrive they can hand them the paper with the facts all ready for action?
Instead the cops have to deal with a bunch of annoying sweaty yids all yelling with heavy accents, you can't understand a word they're saying, nobody can ever give a straight answer to anything because the frumma are afraid not to expose any frumma screwup, and you wonder why it takes so long for the police to get the facts? And no clear photo of the boy could be obtained from the family or from the school, within 2 hours?
Who on Shomrim was in charge of getting all the facts about Leiby and giving over that info to the police as soon as they arrived?
Posted by: WoolSilkCotton | July 21, 2011 at 03:32 PM
Posted by: Deremes | July 21, 2011 at 02:42 PM
Agreement, doesn’t mean mitigation, I think that both side are not willing to listen to each other, almost every person who posted here in this blog, agrees that the volunteers did a outstanding job to organize thousands of people within 12 hours. Furthermore, the ability of the police to find the alleged murderer and the body only a few hours after the murder most people herein believe was due to the help of volunteers. Nevertheless, I hope that nobody will fool himself or herself, we need a professional force to investigate crimes of this nature. We always must inform police, as soon as it becomes apparent that a child is really missing not just got lost.
Posted by: OMG | July 21, 2011 at 03:40 PM
WoolSilkCotton
Again,with your usual diatribe against frum yidden.You cant resist,can you?
No cover up no nothing. The facts is as you know it and as i said.
Where were the cops ALL day long Tuesday? couldn't they come up with SOMETHING? Did they really had to rely on the smelly yidden?
You loosing your case when you come up with the silly picture thing.
You and the entire FM crew which includes Hella Winston and soon the Forward will jump aboard will use it an attack against the frum community. But the facts are what they are.
Posted by: Deremes | July 21, 2011 at 03:45 PM
Deremes, is it possible the cops were doing a lot of investigating and searching that they didn't tell you about?
Are the police obligated to send a telegram to Mr. Deremes, c/o Failed Messiah, with all the details of what they did?
Shomrim has a long history of coverups. Were they reluctant to call the police because they were paranoid about the police finding out anything that would make any frumma look bad? Nobody knows.
"Silly picture thing"? Is it so unreasonable, according to you, to give the police a clear photograph of the boy's face?
Posted by: WoolSilkCotton | July 21, 2011 at 04:40 PM
Deremes, the best fire department is not the one which is best at fighting fires but rather the one which is best at preventing fires. The best way to prevent fire deaths is to enforce fire safety regulations.
If the Boyan Summer camp followed the proper standard of insisting on adults collecting children then the child would not have been abducted. Shomrim are part of the culture of not reporting breaches of preventive regulations thereby increasing risk. Increase risk and eventually your luck will run out
It is like a father who saves one child from a fire but dies while failing to save his second child. If the fire was caused byu the negligence of the father in having defective electics, then his bravery and death does not negate the fact that his second child died through the father's negligence.
Posted by: Barry | July 21, 2011 at 04:41 PM
To effie,
Naive
1.having or showing unaffected simplicity of nature or absence of artificiality; unsophisticated; ingenuous.
2. having or showing a lack of experience, judgment, or information; credulous:
I like the first meaning because it implies no spin but you were alluding to the second definition with me.
Now I am quite prepared to sit with anyone you and JRKmommy included in an open, public, moderated, safe forum and lay out on the table my full life experiences and what I am aware of. On no count would you call me naive to the good and evil of the world.
Posted by: Adam Neira | July 21, 2011 at 04:44 PM
I have no idea whether Leiby knew Aron before this. I also have no idea what Aron may have said to Leiby.
That's my point.
The word "voluntary" is meaningless in this situation. You can't judge the reaction of an 8 yr old, who was taken by an adult and is away from his familly and put into a strange setting, especially when we are just going by grainy security videos and have no idea what may have been said to Leiby.
I find it dangerous to assume that ALL children in danger will automatically scream and run away at the first opportunity. Many don't. Elizabeth Smart and Jaycee Duggard didn't. Many children also don't disclose abuse for years, even when it doesn't involve a primary caregiver. That hardly makes it "voluntary".
Posted by: JRKmommy | July 21, 2011 at 11:57 PM
I have not read any commentary or questioning regarding Levi's parents living in the same home. How private was Levi's attic apartment? It seems very strange that after reporting Levi lived in an attic apartment in his parent's home, there is no follow up with the alleged murderer's parents. Was it the norm for there to be no contact between Levi and his parents for 2 days? Is it possible they would not know Levi had company?, or that Levi would feel free to carry out every aspect of his inhumane actions with no concern about being surprisd or interrupted?
Posted by: Katie Higgins | July 23, 2011 at 01:42 AM
A nine-year-old boy should be able to walk several blocks by himself. When I was six, I walked to and from school, in one of NYC's rougher neighborhoods, either by myself or with my friends, a distance of 8 NYC short blocks, or 4/10 of a mile.
When I was 8, I rode the NYC subway by myself. I knew the subway system better than most adults did. This was in the 1950's but NYC was no less dangerous then than it is now. Murders are down 75% in the past 20 years (to 1960 levels). The time I would have been afraid for my kids to ride the subway themselves was in the late 1970's and 1980's. I was scared and I can take care of myself.
Now I was a streetwise, savvy kid, who was a good reader, and with an uncanny sense of direction. But I knew enough in the rare instances I got lost, to go up to a cop if one was around, of if not, to walk into the nearest store or office and find an adult. I knew not to accept rides from strangers.
Boro Park is a safe neighborhood for kids; the main danger is one which all kids (and adults) face; crossing the street. Leiby should have been encouraged starting at age 7 to be out more on his own. Then he wouldn't have gotten lost, and enticed into a man's car in a strange neighborhood.
Yes, this was a one-off thing, but getting lost isn't, and for both the child's and parent's peace of mind kids should be more self-reliant than they are now, not less.
Posted by: Morris the Katz | July 23, 2011 at 08:57 AM
*Donate* To The Leiby Kletzky Memorial Fund. Coping With Grief by Doing Good. http://bit.ly/nPAdy5
Posted by: AlwaysActions | July 24, 2011 at 08:41 AM
Leiby is described as being autistic
Posted by: Lisa | April 24, 2012 at 04:51 AM