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July 04, 2011

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Teddy

Oh, just bothered to see what the first chapter said, well, if you give a book about killing, murder and the goy-jew distinction THAT title and those looks you are just calling for genocide, whether of Jews or by Jews remains to be seen.

Adam Neira

To Yoel Mechanic,

I actually don't agree with the idea of total free speech. Certain things should be censored. The devil is in the detail of who decides on such censorship. I believe it is possible to rule on such things in a fair and reaonable manner. These rulings would be able to be explained to all and sundry.

Yoel Mechanic

From the excerpts, one would see that this book would be protected under the first amendment in the USA; and the author free from government harassment. For those who accept civil liberties in the US, and yet support the Israeli government in their suppression of this book really ought to explain why they feel these two democracies should have these different policies regarding free speech. I am not saying that all democracies should have the same laws, but if you do support democracy one should explain this and why the difference.

masortiman

"Problem is that what he is saying is a policy that has been followed by nations throughout history including the United States at Hiroshima and Dresden, a policy nations have found inevitable. The real issue is when it becomes a policy of first resort."

the problem is that bad cases make bad law, so to speak. A decision a leader has to make in a real situation, with all the specific facts, is made into a "principle" that can be used by the hateful for justification.

Take a different example. We in the USA debated the use of torture over the last 10 years. An argument was made "well what if you have a high level AQ leader, and you are trying to find the location of a hidden nuclear bomb" or some other scenario from "24". Its difficult to argue with that logic in THAT situation. But when that is repeatedly asserted by powerful people in public - well you end up with horrors done to low level AQ people in prison in Baghad, where the info to be found was the location of a stash of IEDs, not a nuclear bomb ready to destroy Manhattan.

In this case this isnt guidance for a Harry Truman. Its a manual to folks doing mayhem in the territories on how to feel guilt free.

Adam Neira

I really can't believe that such rabbinical scholars can get airtime in this day and age. Rabbi Yitzhak Shapira must be aware of the problems he has created for the Jewish people as a whole from such writings. Reinforcing the perception that the Jews see themselves as superior to other people just because of their religious identity is a problem in this day and age. Two concepts i.e. The Chosen and The Light unto the Nations need clarification for some people.

Yoel Mechanic

>one of the rationales used by the Nazi Murderers for killing Jewish children: that they would grow up to seek revenge for the crimes committed against the Jews.
-------------------------------------------

Are you sure about that? Reference please.
Not that I care about Nazis so much; but our historical understanding should be accurate.

Teddy

Shmarya, this guy seems to be on his way to declare parts of Il Principe halacha. What's wrong with that?

Shmarya

Your absolute rejection of ascribing guilt to silent parties is simply incorrect. Philosophical moderation is the key.

Posted by: PulpitRabbi | July 05, 2011 at 02:53 AM

I don't absolutely reject ascribing guilt to silent parties, as you can easily see by re-reading my post, where I wrote:He also argues that silence equals acquiescence, and acquiescence equals responsibility for the actions taken. Does this obligate someone to stand up to evil when doing so will most likely lead to torture and/or death? I don't think so.

But silence equals acquiescence should (and halakhicly does) apply to Jews, as well – and this means Shapira's silence on the repeated acts of price tag violence against Arabs, police and the army by his students make him responsible for that violence, as well.

PulpitRabbi

@Shmarya: Please. We don't hold children responsible or the gravely ill, the infirm, etc.

I clearly stated I disagree with Shapira. I do no subscribe to his thesis at all. But you have exaggerated in your analysis, too. Your absolute rejection of ascribing guilt to silent parties is simply incorrect. Philosophical moderation is the key.

Shmarya

Please.

You have to be at near idiocy level not to see what Shapira said and means/

That a cultist who never sees anything wrong with Israel's hard right is your source of support for your own stupidity is really sad.

Loshonhora

As to Shmarya's idiocy in this post, if Rabbi Shapira really had said all those things, it wouldn't require Shmarya to invent them wholecloth and print them here to "explain" it to people. Obviously Shmarya you have an agenda, and you are distorting what is being said to serve your own agenda.

Posted by: nobody | July 04, 2011 at 09:04 PM
Amen!

nobody

"Rav Meidan, a politically right-wing rabbi, said that this book should be burned.

Posted by: Seraphya | July 04, 2011 at 07:43 PM "

Where did you get it from that he's rightwing? LOL.


As to Shmarya's idiocy in this post, if Rabbi Shapira really had said all those things, it wouldn't require Shmarya to invent them wholecloth and print them here to "explain" it to people. Obviously Shmarya you have an agenda, and you are distorting what is being said to serve your own agenda.

Shmarya

Well, while I greatly disagree with Shapira, yet, I also disagree with your position here above. After all, don't we hold all Germans - save for the righteous objectors and heroic saviors - responsible for the sins of their Nazis? And rightly so. Silence may not inculpate one as much as active participation, but it does bring about guilt. Remember, without the silent majority, Germany would never have pulled off WWII.

Please.

We don't hold children responsible or the gravely ill, the infirm, etc.

Shmarya

Intellectually honest liberals who embrace evolution as the cause of "the origin of species" (as opposed to a supernatural Creator), must then consider the evolutionary process to be a good, natural, and constructive process.

Posted by: RightJew | July 04, 2011 at 05:07 PM

Written like a person who has no idea about what evolution is, no idea of what science is, and no idea of simple logic, either.

Again, evolution is not good or bad – it just is.

Process that.

Shmarya

Posted by: Loshonhora | July 04, 2011 at 05:48 PM

As I've pointed out previously, you don't know the halakha you claim to follow, you don't know history, and you're not particularly bright.

If you want to wallow in your own ignorance, by all means, please do. But don't make the rest of us have to watch you do it.

Seraphya

There are plenty of Orthodox Rabbis in Israel who think the book is evil.

Rav Meidan, a politically right-wing rabbi, said that this book should be burned.

mordecai

Orthodox Rabbis have spent many years in Talmudic reasoning. Consequently their mental faculties and acuity are far greater than the pedestrian Jew such as me.

George Orwell warned us of these tactics in Animal Farm. When the birds took issue with the philosophy of Animalism propounded by the pigs (the smartest of the animals), the pigs came up with the following casuistic logic to assuage the concerns of the birds:

"A bird's wing, comrades, is an organ of propulsion and not of manipulation. It should therefore be regarded as a leg.

The rabbi is somewhat like the pigs.

Loshonhora

think the problem here is that I understand the halakhic concepts Shapira is misusing – you don't.

Posted by: Shmarya | July 04, 2011 at 03:42 PM

How are yopu halachic authority?
You permit homosexuality and condone it and it's pride. That is against the Torah, never mind halacha.
You have on a thread called the Rambam a racist, the Rambam is one of our funements of Halacha yet you critisize him.
You don't keep the rules of Loshon Hora Rechilus & motzi shem ra, on the contrary you go out of your way to break them.
You argue with the pillars of the prewar generation, on electricity, and insist that you & only you are right.
To top it up when do you learn halacha?
Are you aware that the Al-might G-d taught Moses 49 ways to permit & 49 ways to prohibit, & the poskim of each generation make the call for their times.
Shapiro, although I don't share his opinion ways or values, he is an active Rabbi & teacher, and is entitled to his enterpretation, he didn't write a responsa or tshuvah sefer, he wrote an interlectual piece.Have you heard of halacha vein moirim kein, or halacha veloi lemaaseh?
The Israeli government knows it, and the other Rabbis gave him a haskomo, BTW unfortunatly most haskomos are not by reading the entire book, just by a sample & knowing the author.
Again out of hate to any orthodox issue, have taken the side of the government which if it gets to court, should be thrown out, but in that country the courts are also political, so we will have to wait.

PulpitRabbi

He also argues that silence equals acquiescence, and acquiescence equals responsibility for the actions taken. Does this obligate someone to stand up to evil when doing so will most likely lead to torture and/or death? I don't think so.

Well, while I greatly disagree with Shapira, yet, I also disagree with your position here above. After all, don't we hold all Germans - save for the righteous objectors and heroic saviors - responsible for the sins of their Nazis? And rightly so. Silence may not inculpate one as much as active participation, but it does bring about guilt. Remember, without the silent majority, Germany would never have pulled off WWII.

Tolerating Hizbolla is supporting it (tough it isn't the same as actively serving in it).

RightJew

My discussion has nothing to do with 6 days of creation or so-called fundamentalists.

Intellectually honest liberals who embrace evolution as the cause of "the origin of species" (as opposed to a supernatural Creator), must then consider the evolutionary process to be a good, natural, and constructive process.

Shmarya

Posted by: RightJew | July 04, 2011 at 04:40 PM

Please.

Evolution is not good – it is neutral.

It has no moral position.

Past that, evolution is not a liberal issue. Most conservatives also believe in it because the evidence for it is overwhelming.

What you're really trying to say is that religious FUNDAMENTALISTS don't believe in evolution because evolution precludes a literal 6 days of creation taking place about 6,000 years ago.

Those fundamentalists are arguing from their conclusion, not from the facts.

RightJew

Ah-pee-chorus:

You never answered my question. A forest fire is a destructive one time event which cannot be connected at all with the origin of the human race.

In contrast, according to liberals, evolution is viewed as a constructive, purely natural process responsible for the creation of man from prior animal species.

If, according to liberals, constructive evolutionary natural processes include predatory carnivores devouring peaceful herbivores, then according to liberals exactly what can be immoral about an advanced powerful nation exterminating a more weaker, more primitive enemy nation?

Jeff

This guy says the things he does - yet I'm a racist.

There is no ending to the twists and turns that make up frum logic.

Shmarya

You are outright in your face lying in your analysis & you know it.

Posted by: Loshonhora | July 04, 2011 at 03:26 PM

I am not.

I think the problem here is that I understand the halakhic concepts Shapira is misusing – you don't.

Proton Soup

the talk about revolution makes it pretty clear he's not limiting himself to gentiles. he's talking about killing anyone that gets in his way.

Loshonhora

Posted by: Loshonhora | July 04, 2011 at 02:07 PM

I see you haven't overcome what is always your major problems in making an argument – your lack of honesty, your lack of integrity, and your idiocy.

Posted by: Shmarya | July 04, 2011 at 02:20 PM
I am way more honest than you I have never stolen a penny, I don't take programs,or handouts & donations I pay all my taxes & don't lie. Don't put your curse on me.You are outright in your face lying in your analysis & you know it.

Shmarya

Posted by: Loshonhora | July 04, 2011 at 02:07 PM

I see you haven't overcome what is always your major problems in making an argument – your lack of honesty, your lack of integrity, and your idiocy.

Loshonhora

1. Just as he should kill evil Jews so their evil does not spread, "

He didn't say that.

Posted by: nobody | July 04, 2011 at 11:51 AM

Nor did he say numbers 2 & 3 or anything Shamyahoo says he said. This is a total fabrication, & distortion. After reading this I agree the Rabbis are right & arresteing them was political.
I may not agree with Shapiro's interpretation, but he is entitled to learn it that way & free speach.

anuran

RightJew, Suppose I said "The Talmud says we should kill Christians because in the Forbidden Chapter Marx says we have to do that to take over the world." You'd say I was insane. There is no "Forbidden Chapter". The gemara were written almost two thousand years ago. Nobody says we should kill all Christians. And Jews aren't secretly plotting to take over the world.

Well, the crap you're excreting about biology and evolutionary theory is just slightly more ridiculous and ignorant than that.

evolution is a concept not a person

RightJew. Evolution has no morality. It is a scientific theory, not a human. Only senscient things have a morality. Whatever makes a group breed more is evolutionarily beneficial AT THAT POINT IN TIME.

To answer your question in a more personal manner, evolutionarily speaking it is probably better to breed with them than to kill them. Inbreeding depression is, shall we say, not so good long term, just ask the blue people of Kentucky or the Vadomas, or those Turkish people that walk on all fours. If you even get to that point, because full on genocide would bring down the wrath of quite a few of your more violent insane neighbors-thus negating your short term evolutionary win.

As for Rabbi, he gets a pass from me. Most religions and cultures are inherently clannish and racist. That's kind of the point. He just took it to a whole other distastful level. He has a right to say what he does, and I like the fact that his beliefs are out in the open for his potential victims to see and avoid.

ah-pee-chorus

RightJew -

how utterly idiotic!! if you came across a village where there was evidence that a forest fire had destroyed 100 houses 'naturally' , would that mean that you would have the moral right to burn down houses as you deemed appropriate since you are just mimicking nature?

furthermore, evolution isnt really survival of the fittest, it is survival of the most adaptable. and evolution isnt a model for conscious behavior, it is an explanation of the natural process by which all life forms came to be. your childlike thought process is also similar to saying that since gravity exists i have a right to push people off a roof.

RightJew

Can any honest, evolution believing liberal please answer this question -

If you believe man evolved from apes or animals through a purely natural process of Darwinian evolution & "survival of the fittest" (without a supernatural Creator), what could possibly be immoral about Israel committing complete ethnic cleansing of the relatively weaker and primitive non-Jewish minorities in Israel?

Yoel B

“Let's assume that to win a war I have to kill children, otherwise my soldiers will die, then surely killing the enemies' children is more correct than having my soldiers killed,”

OK, it's 1945 and you're President Truman. 72,000+ US casualties in the invasion of Okinawa; more than one in six of those died. The Joint Chiefs of Staff project the casualties for the invasion of Japan as being at least six times that, and if things take longer than the optimistic projections have it, casualties might run to over a million with over a quarter of a million dead. Dropping Fat Man on Hiroshima will kill women and children.

What do you do? How is the scenario you're facing different from the hypothetical that Rabbi Shapira seems to be talking about in this interview?

Hizbollah has tens of thousands of rockets. To destroy the storage depots and the launch sites will kill women and children, because Iran and Hizbollah planned it that way. OK, you don't want to cooperate with your enemy's strategy. How many of your own women and children do you let die, how many homes and businesses destroyed before you try to take out the rockets?

Maybe Rabbi Shapira is a racist, though I don't think you could prove it by the Post's article. But somewhere, someone is having to deal with the life and death questions of Iran (hello, evil king) and Hezbollah. Military action in either case will cause civilian casualties.
Yelling "racism" doesn't help. If The King's Torah had never been written someone would still have to address them.

nobody

"1. Just as he should kill evil Jews so their evil does not spread, "

He didn't say that.

Avi

Unless the non jews are a different race its not racist. Arabs are the same race as Jews

Loshonhora

Shmaryahoo!
However much my opinion differs with Shapiro's you go out your way to distort the truth in what he wrote, maliciously.
You know exactly what & why you are doing it.
I know you will get back & tell me to take my meds, or fool idiot please etc.
BTW have the US not targeted Gedaffi's family, years back & again now?
Is that justifiesd, just the Rambam & the Torah laws according to his understanding are not?
You distort what he writes without shame.
This is because you suffer of being a biggot against Orthodox Jews.I know you keep denying the truth.I guess you are doing great work in you mind disclosing the wrongs with Orthodox Jews which allows you to lie.

art thekaye

If the translations is accurate - even if not an excellent translation - then Rabbi Shapira is using one of the rationales used by the Nazi Murderers for killing Jewish children: that they would grow up to seek revenge for the crimes committed against the Jews. It sounds as if Schapira and his ilk are new Hamans.

shofet

Problem is that what he is saying is a policy that has been followed by nations throughout history including the United States at Hiroshima and Dresden, a policy nations have found inevitable. The real issue is when it becomes a policy of first resort.

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