Ultra-Orthodox Army Draft Okay – If Secular Israelis Study Torah, Rabbi Says

Haredi Knesset Member Rabbi Moshe Gafni (United Torah Judaism) said Sunday that he is in favor of drafting haredim into the Israel Defense Forces, as long as each student leaving his yeshiva will be replaced by a young secular studying Torah from morning to night.

 

'Haredi draft OK, if seculars study Torah'
United Torah Judaism MK Gafni wants to see young secular engaging in Torah studies for each yeshiva student joining IDF. 'Torah is the justification for our existence here,' he explains
Tani Goldstein • Ynet

Knesset Member Moshe Gafni (United Torah Judaism) said Sunday that he is in favor of drafting haredim into the Israel Defense Forces, as long as each student leaving his yeshiva will be replaced by a young secular studying Torah from morning to night.

Speaking at the Caesarea Economic Forum in Rishon Lezion, Gafni said, "I'm in favor of young haredim enlisting in the IDF. I am in favor of an 18-year-old student from Ponevezh Yeshiva halting his studies, taking a kit bag, traveling to the recruit center and joining a combat unit.

"But the people of Israel have always been divided between those who worked and fought and those who studied Torah. The Bible and the Mishna both talk about such a division. So if haredi students enlist in the IDF, an equal number of young people from north Tel Aviv, young seculars, should study Torah."

According to Gafni, the young seculars will have to study Torah all day and all night, "just like haredi students do." He wondered whether anyone would be willing to do such a thing.

Asked by Ynet whether it would be okay for the seculars to study Torah from a non-Orthodox angle, Gafni responded: "They can study from whichever angle they want, as long as it's from morning to night."

The Finance Committee chairman noted that Torah studies were essential, adding that "the Torah is the justification for our existence here. Otherwise, what are we doing here on Arab land? After all, the Hashomer Hatzair kibbutzim are also located on Arab land, not just the settlements in the territories.

"We are all occupiers. Our only right to be here is that God Almighty handed out countries, and gave us this small piece of land to safeguard the Torah."

'Haredim are better employees'

The conference, attended by Israel's economy leaders, was dedicated to the employment of haredim and Arabs. According to Gafni, the State must recognize haredi education as education for all intents and purposes, and force employers to hire people based on their Torah education.

"Haredi workers, the few people who do get hired, are usually better employees than regular workers due to the learning tools they receive at the yeshiva," he argued.

Surprisingly, Gafni was supported by Finance Minister Yuval Steinitz, who said: "In principle, I agree with MK Gafni. I am in favor of professional training for haredim, and the government is acting on this.

"I am in favor of core studies, like English and mathematics, and in any case – haredi studies are studies for all intents and purposes and we must recognize that, because they train people to learn."
 
Former MK Chaim Oron (Meretz) and Steinitz's former advisor, Omer Moav, expressed their strong objection to the proposal.
         
According to Oron, "The core studies are the only way for all sectors, especially the haredi sector, to integrate into the labor market. If that doesn't happen – all figures show that the more the population which does not study the core subject grows, we'll deteriorate."

Comments

[dlz]

Makes sense.

[masortiman]

"as long as each student leaving his yeshiva will be replaced by a young secular studying Torah from morning to "

My daughter studied morning to night at the Conservative Yeshiva in Yerushalayim . If MK Gafni is serious about this, I would like to send him an invoice.

[masortiman]

"Asked by Ynet whether it would be okay for the seculars to study Torah from a non-Orthodox angle, Gafni responded: "They can study from whichever angle they want, as long as it's from morning to night.""

MK Gafni really, really SHOULD spend some time at CY. CY could really use state support - the actual hours studying depend on the specific program you are in (CY serves Israelis, diaspora students coming as individuals, and gap year programs). Im sure they should add more hours to get the state support. If that results in Haredim getting secular education, I think it becomes a cheap way for the state to deal with the Haredi problem, and is a win-win all around.

[who knows]

Are they really studying from morning till night? He gives all kind of nonsense including calling Israel and Arab land (apparently he did not read roman and greek historians who had no idea that Israel is an arab country.)

[masortiman]

"The Finance Committee chairman noted that Torah studies were essential, adding that "the Torah is the justification for our existence here"

Excellent

http://yeshiva.uscjhost.net/

special for the Finance Comm

http://www.conservativeyeshiva.org/about/support-the-conservative-yeshiva/

[seymour]

this guy is nuts and delusional.

If he feels so strong about Israel go and fight for it.

this is a cope out, they just and do not understand how stupid they sound want a free ride.

for every secular that gets injured one herdie must suffer the same consequences.

it should work both ways if he agrees to that I all for his proposal that

[Alter Kocker]

Sure Mr.Gafni, but while the secular is learning Torah, he/she will be eating a large pork chop and lobster tail. The secular's wife/husband or same-sex partner will be attending this person in the nude. Oh and by the way, that person will not be jewish, possibly christian, muslim or buddhist.

Still want a secular to replace your yeshiva bochurs.

[Betzalel]

Sounds fair to me.

[masortiman]

"Sure Mr.Gafni, but while the secular is learning Torah, he/she will be eating a large pork chop and lobster tail"

nu uh. Not at CY.

[jancsipista]

toireh brings dictatorship in the minds of theese mindless putzes they think they know the answer to everything that ails this planet if they would work hard physically their minds wouldnt be so warped, theese so called know it all inbaciles have no idea what real life is about.

[Leah]

The poor man is losing it. Let the student serve his time and then return to the yeshiva. If he is worried about the vacant spots, fill it with some of the bochurim coming in from the States to learn.

[SM]

So, in order to have Haredim do their duty to the country the leech off of we should send innocent children to be brainwashed and tortured with Haredi schooling???

o yea this is sane.

[masortiman]

"So, in order to have Haredim do their duty to the country the leech off of we should send innocent children to be brainwashed and tortured with Haredi schooling??? "

why do you guys think torah study means haredi, or Orthodox?

[Sam the Man]

Until I see absolute evidence to the contrary, I am going to have to agree with the Orthodox opinion I commonly heard as a child, that the study of Torah is MORE important to the defense of Israel than serving in the army. It's actually the Yeshiva student sipping on his third cup of coffee, studying from morning to night ( 11 am to 2pm with a 2 hour lunch break) that is responsible for keeping the Jewish people alive. It's the 2,000 strong Yeshivah kolel, where at least 125 show up on a daily basis ( except during the week, or weekends) that serves as the backbone of the spiritual defense of our people. Ask yourself, where would we be if not for the Yeshiva student? Scary thought.

[who knows]

The haredim have a strong belief and I heard it on many occasions that they have the harder job. They believe that both learning and fighting are necessary for the survival of Jewish people, with learning being more necessary and more difficult then fighting.

This is where Rabbi Gafni is coming from and it is obvious (in his mind) that his statement shows how hard haredim are working for the Jewish people and that no secular is capable of doing anything close to this.

[Dovit]

Morning till night, with long breaks in between for stoning cars, setting fire to trash bins, harassing women on buses and on the street, protesting in front of clothing and electronics stores, rioting, wrecking police cars, etc.

[seymour]

this is a fiction that you need torah so the army does well

throughout history many armies prevailed with torah

yet no once did torah ever defeat an army

[ah-pee-chorus]

since many if not most of the full time parasites...i mean...buchrim who learn instead of going to the army are against the state and want it to disappear, they would cancel out the positive effect of those learning who support israel.
of course that would be assuming that learning full time had a more positive impact than singing old civil war songs.
anyway, while rational people believe the defense of israel is best served with zero boys learning full time, we can at least place an upper limit on the amount of guys who must learn. in 1948 there were very few full-time learners, and certainly many of those were hoping israel lost so their learning cant be counted. and yet israel was victorious despite the lack of kollel guys in the war in which the odds were most stacked against them. and after israel was founded, the agreement to permit yeshiva guys to learn was made when there were about 400 in total. and yet israel survived and thrived. so the maximum number which can be claimed as necessary is 400. today there are about 50,000 .
and does god base his support for the army on the actual number of guys enrolled or does he use the list that the yeshivas were claiming that included the non-existent 10,000 whose names were used to steal money from the state? inquiring minds want to know.

[jancsipista]

everythin that we are told by theese knowit all rabbis is based on their fantasy a fantasy that they want to shove down on our throats, in other words they want to dominate our thinking by telling us how or what to think or do in our daily lifes they have nothing in life to do just dictate to others how to live their lifes , and of course if they dont get their way then they use god to scare us they judge us in other words they are god by acting like one what a racket they got.

[Yissy-CA]

He just wants the spots filled so the state stills pays for them. What a snake.

[seymour]

why not call his bluff

get 1000 secular and show up to yeshiva and let see him deliver 1000 to the army

[ah-pee-chorus]

gafni you fool, heres my idea. electricity and water should be cut off from all haredi areas and when the haredim complain the seculars should tell them it will only be restored when haredim come to work at the utilities on shabbos and eat ham and cheese sandwiches.
its such a shame that an idiot like this not only sits in knesset, but is too stupid to keep his mouth shut. if he really believes he is on arab land save for the torah, then he is an ignorant moron.

[Proton Soup]

so he's worried about losing customers to his school, and wants the government to provide paying customers to compensate for lost revenues?

[Dovit]

Proton Soup, you hit the nail on the head exactly. It's all about "paying customers".

[state of disgust]

There is no quid pro quo when it comes to serving in the IDF. It is your duty as a citizen to serve the country to which you swear fealty... and if you don't swear loyalty to the country, get out or be kicked out.

[effie]

What he wants is the money. He doesn't care whose ass is in the seat, as long as they get the checks. Pitiful. Either serve your country or get kicked out. They truly are nothing but leaches.

[Seraphya]

Lets use this as an oppurtinity to fund conservative, reform, liberal, and secular batei midrash.

Maybe academic courses in biblical criticism and academic talmud study will be finally able to get some deserved money from the bloated "torah" budget.

[Maarvik]

Gafni is delusional and it beggars belief he holds a government post. Perhaps wording his proposal like this would make more sense: For every secular Israeli who goes off on Sabbatical to learn Torah, let Gafni find a qualifying Chareidi who will be earning at least as much as the secular professional he is trying to replace.

[Teddy]

Seraphya for Education Minister!

[masortiman]

seraphya

The conservative yeshiva goes beyond that - its courses are NOT western academic courses on Talmud, such as you would find at Hebrew U, say. They are traditionally structured text study, with chavrutas, and without secular secondary sources. They DO allow females to study (and teach) all texts, and they DO allow, AFAIK, a very range of questions and explorations. But they are very "yeshivish" (in the original sense).

[seymour]

deremes

Whatever anyone would want you to believe he is not being greeted as a hero this shabbos.
___________________________________________
you either are a lair or maybe never went to shul in your whole life to make such a stupid comment

read the daily news

The courtroom was packed with more than 100 supporters from their Hasidic community.

and that was only on the same day they where arrested 100 people within hours of arrest.

amazing. you cannot get 100 people in a year to back up a victim from molestation.

They sure do show their true colors.

crime is ok, fraud is a mizhvha