Texting On Shabbat By The Orthodox And Haredim Becomes Epidemic – Are Rabbis At Fault?

The practice has become so widespread – some say half of Modern Orthodox teens text on Shabbat – that it has developed its own nomenclature – keeping “half Shabbos,” for those who observe all the Shabbat regulations except for texting; “gd Shbs,” is the shorthand text greeting that means good Shabbos.

 

For Many Orthodox Teens, ‘Half Shabbos’ Is A Way Of Life
Texting on Saturdays seen as increasingly common ‘addiction.’
Steve Lipman • The Jewish Week

At a recent campgrounds Shabbaton sponsored by a local Modern Orthodox high school, the teenage participants broke into small groups after the meals, as is usual, to talk with their friends.

On their cell phones.

Of the 17 students who attended the weekend program, said 17-year-old Julia, a junior at the day school, most sent text messages on Shabbat – a violation of the halachic ban on using electricity in non-emergency situations.

“Only three [of the 17 students] didn’t text on Shabbos,” Julia says. Most did it “out in the open,” sitting at picnic tables. “They weren’t hiding it.”

The students at the Shabbaton were not the exception for their age group. According to interviews with several students and administrators at Modern Orthodox day schools, the practice of texting on Shabbat is becoming increasingly prevalent, especially, but not exclusively, among Modern Orthodox teens.

It’s a literally hot-button issue that teachers and principals at yeshiva day schools, whose academic year ends this week, acknowledge and deal with it in both tacit and oblique ways. For the most part, they extol the virtues of keeping Shabbat rather than chastising those who violate it.

The practice has become so widespread – some say half of Modern Orthodox teens text on Shabbat – that it has developed its own nomenclature – keeping “half Shabbos,” for those who observe all the Shabbat regulations except for texting; “gd Shbs,” is the shorthand text greeting that means good Shabbos.

Not surprisingly, because of texting’s high-tech nature, it is the frequent subject of bloggers and discussion groups on the Internet.

Schools are still looking for ways to deal with the issue, how to recognize the extent of the problem without issuing directives that are likely to be ignored.

Bottom line: The teens who text probably won’t stop.

“It’s a big problem,” says Rabbi Steven Burg, international director of the Orthodox Union’s NCSY youth group. Teens who text on Shabbat are an open secret in their schools and social circles, he says.

“Adults don’t know how common it is,” one student at a local yeshiva day school says. “Everyone is doing it.”…

The Shabbat texters, according to anecdotal evidence, include kids who grew up in less-observant homes as well as students from chasidic or so-called black hat backgrounds.…

The Jewish Week's report goes on to cite an expert, Michelle Friedman, who doesn't see this kids as "at risk," and mentions that some kids think that because a cell phone doesn't use very much electricity, their sin is lower than say, turning on a TV. A kid is quoted who says Shabbat is boring. And the problem is treated as an addiction by Rabbi Burg.

But here's an interesting series of facts that again demonstrates the problems that happen when rabbis use Jewish law to enfore their own ideology:

Telephone usage on Shabbat was originally permitted by some of the world's most important rabbis/poskim. In Lithuania, Belarus, parts of Poland and in Western Europe, telephone usage wasn't seen as a Shabbat problem.

Why?

Because electricity was not seen as fire or as boneh (another Jewish legal category of non-permitted Shabbat work).

Indeed, initially many rabbis were willing to permit full electricity usage on Shabbat.

But there were two exceptions: making light and making heat to cook. These exceptions were done more to be careful, to include the opinions of other rabbis who prohibited electricity all together on Shabbat. The first was seen as being too close to fire when done with incandescant bulbs; the second was seen as leading to actual cooking on Shabbat, which is forbidden in its own right, as opposed to warming pre-cooked food, which is permissible using certain methods.

Until the end of WW2, many hasidic rebbes turned electric lights on and off on Yom Tov, Jewish holidays, seeing electricity as a possible form of fire but viewing that form as a constant flow, meaning turning on an electric light was the same as lighting a candle from an existing flame – something permitted on Jewish holidays but not Shabbat. And some Orthodox synagogues in the US were using microphones on Shabbat and Yom Tov both, because there was no heat generated to cook and no light involved.

But there was a problem wil all of this normalcy – Hungarians.

When rabbis from the communities that followed the Chatam Sofer arrived in America and Western Europe, they rejected many halakhic (Jewish legal) norms of their new communities. They demanded halav yisrael milk (milk watched from the milking process to bottling to prevent non-kosher milk from being added in) even though the normative rabbinic opinion was that halav yisrael milk was not necessary because non-kosher milk was not commercially milk and because the pasteurization process and government regulation both made it functionally impossible to mix pig's milk or camel's milk with cow's milk.

The rejected the rabbis and the customs of their new communities.

And they rejected electricity use on Shabbt or Yom Tov because hadash assur min HaTorah, the aphorism of the Hatam Sofer, a play on a biblical verse: everything new is forbidden by the Torah.

These Hungarian rabbis and their non-Hungarian allies fought a war against electricity usage on Shabbat and Yom Tov. And they won.

In Israel, the Hazon Ish, unable to base his ruling prohibiting electricity usage on Shabbat solely on the fire issue created another issue out of whole cloth. It involves completing an electrical circuit, which the Hazon Is related to building a building, another prohibited Shabbat activity. The Hazon Ish's understanding of electricity was seriously flawed and it does not stand up to scientific fact – something many rabbis admit. But he was the major halakic force in Israel at that time and his ruling became – and remains – law.

One of those non-Hungarian allies was the 6th Lubavitcher Rebbe, Yosef Yitzchok Schneersohn, who as he was was wheeled of his rescue ship from Europe declared that "America is not different," meaning that the halakha and customs of America could not be allowed to stand, just as much as it meant that America would have to become a European shtel, and its Jews ultra-Orthodox.

Eventually, Schneersohn sent his son-in-law, Menacchem Mendel, to various wavering rabbis to explain to these men that electricity wasn't what they thought it was – it was, instead, assur, forbidden to use of Shabbat and Yom Tov. And Mendel Schneerson was believed because he came with a titile that was only half true, and that barely. Mendel Schneerson had been billed by his father-in-law as a famous electrical engineer. Yes, Schneerson had a degree from a Paris technical college in Electrical Engineering. But he had almost flunked out (another son-in-law of the 6th rebbe and classmate of Mendel Schneerson there had flunked out), and he had barely worked in the field.

Mendel Schneerson's spin on electricity does not hold up scientifically, and most major poskim – rabbis who decide difficult halakhic issues – never embraced it as fact.

As Rabbi Shlomo Zalman Auerbach, the leading posek in Israel a quarter century ago, electricity is not technically prohibited on Shabbat. It does not have the status of a biblically-based or rabbinic prohibition. It's like a custom, but less than a custom. When asked by doctors what should be done with electric medical equipment on Shabbat he invoked the old light/heat for cooking rule.

Rabbi Moshe Feinstein, the leading posek in America at that time, ruled that batteries are not electricity under halakha, a fact that allowed certain medical devices to be used.

But neither rabbi advocated or would allow a return to the correct, pre-WW2 views of electricity.

And now we have texing.

Because a cellphone relies on a battery to run, it isn't electricity according to Moshe Feinstein. And because the light those screens and buttons generate does not come from incandescent bulbs, there is no light generated in a way that would violate the light-making prohibition.

So a cellphone is not in a nd of itself a true Shabbat violation.

But what about texting? Doesn't typing letters violate the Shabbat prohibition of writing?

No, because that prohibition requires two letters to be handwritten, and the writing must be permanent. Writing that has no permanence and that exists only in electric bits that will display when called up is not permanent.

I don't write this to encourage or endorse texting on Shabbat.

I write this to show what rabbis who pursued ideology above truth did to Judaism. They unnecessarily and often dishonestly restricted something that would have made Jews' lives easier – too much easier in these rabbis' view.

And now something has come along that is very addictive, can be done in private or in public almost unnoticed, and 'violates' the restrictive Shabbat these rabbis cheated to obtain – and thousands, maybe tens of thousands of Jews ignore them.

But these Jews for the most part do not know the ins and outs of halakha. They think they are violating Shabbat just like lighting a campfire would violate Shabbat, except maybe, somehow, a little bit less.

That is a situation far more dangerous to Orthodox Judaism in any of its stripes than open endorsement of electricty usage on Shabbat by ultra-Orthodox rabbis ever would have posed.

And that is another example of the law of unintended rabbinically-generated consequences.

Comments

[jk]

nebech shmarya get a life

[maven]

It is inevitable, given that life soon will be almost impossible without electronic devices. Were there a legitimate leadership not afraid of the most reactionary elements in the frum world, electricity would be permitted in most cases and the Jewish community would move forward. Instead, it just becomes acceptable to "break the rules".

[BibleBeltJew]

Reb Rosenberg: By far one of your best efforts of 2011. Well done, Sir!

[masortiman]

shmarya

1. On permanance of writing - dont cell phones normally save your sent and recieved texts? My own understanding, based on speaking to an observant conservative Jew (one who used electricity on shabbos), was that wrt to PC's, one had to adjust the windows settings to override all the automatic save features, in order precisely to deal with the writing issue

2.I am not sure I buy the whole "it was the hungarians" way back in 1950, when R'Neulander wrote his tshuva allowing use of electricity on shabbat, there were C rabbis who disagreed, and R neulander himself wanted to limit the use of electricity to instances where its use enhanced shabbot. Unfortunately I cannot find that tshuva online, but I cannot believe that the sources arguing for not using electricty were only Hungarians.

Our own movement has a way to go in addressing issues related to electricity. I for one, did not know until quite recently that there are still C shuls, rabbis, etc who do not accept the use of electricity on shabbat. I also do not know of any guidance on its usage - any way beyond the purely subjective to distinguish what is shabbat enhancing from what is not.

Personally, I think a break from electronic communication is something that very much enhances the spirituality of shabbat, and indeed, most young people of any religion could use. I would much rather preserve "no texting/no calling/etc" but avoid the silliness of unscrewing refrigerator light bulbs before shabbot, than do the reverse.

[masortiman]

"And some Orthodox synagogues in the US were using microphones on Shabbat and Yom Tov both, because there was no heat generated to cook and no light involved"

the only one I am aware of is beth tfilloh in baltimore.

[masortiman]

http://www.zomet.org.il/Eng/?CategoryID=198&ArticleID=283#a3

it appears that R'Feinstein did NOT accept the use of microphones on shabbat.

[Shmarya]

"And some Orthodox synagogues in the US were using microphones on Shabbat and Yom Tov both, because there was no heat generated to cook and no light involved"

the only one I am aware of is beth tfilloh in baltimore.

Posted by: masortiman | June 22, 2011 at 01:03 PM

There were at least 6 left in the early 60s.

1. On permanance of writing - dont cell phones normally save your sent and recieved texts? My own understanding, based on speaking to an observant conservative Jew (one who used electricity on shabbos), was that wrt to PC's, one had to adjust the windows settings to override all the automatic save features, in order precisely to deal with the writing issue

Nope. Again, electric bits stored and retrieved is not writing.

2.I am not sure I buy the whole "it was the hungarians" way back in 1950, when R'Neulander wrote his tshuva allowing use of electricity on shabbat, there were C rabbis who disagreed, and R neulander himself wanted to limit the use of electricity to instances where its use enhanced shabbot. Unfortunately I cannot find that tshuva online, but I cannot believe that the sources arguing for not using electricty were only Hungarians.

Try re-reading what I wrote: "These Hungarian rabbis and their non-Hungarian allies fought a war against electricity usage on Shabbat and Yom Tov. And they won."I don't think I could have been clearer.

Personally, I think a break from electronic communication is something that very much enhances the spirituality of shabbat, and indeed, most young people of any religion could use. I would much rather preserve "no texting/no calling/etc" but avoid the silliness of unscrewing refrigerator light bulbs before shabbot, than do the reverse.

So don't text – but don't enforce your view on others.

[shmuel]

Thank you, Shmarya, for enlightening me to the history of this inyan. Clarifies a lot.

[Leah]

"half of Modern Orthodox teens text on Shabbat"

I don't buy this for one minute. Even the term "Modern Orthodox day schools". In my circle modern orthodox do not attend day schools, the go to modern orthodox yeshivas.

I don't deny the popularity of texting among the young but I think what we have here are differing definitions of who is modern orthodox. If you take a popular high school like HAFTR and a MO shul like the Young Israel of Woodmere (one of the largest of the YI) I can't see 50+% of the HAFTR/YI youths carrying a phone and texting on shabbos.

I definitely can see it in the "day school" students but it has been my impression that these are students who also attend public school, not a characteristic of the modern orthodox (at least where I hail from Brooklyn/LI). Again, we come back to the fundamental question or just what defines one as orthodox vs say conservative and the nebulas conservadox.

Then again I could be wrong and that 50+% of the HAFTR/YI youths do carry phones and text on shabbos then the orthodox does indeed have a big problem on their hands. I shutter to think how many of those youths also text and drive – scary!

[Yissy-CA]

One of your best articles. Why not sticky?

[Shmarya]

One of your best articles. Why not sticky?

Posted by: Yissy-CA | June 22, 2011 at 01:33 PM

Thanks!

Because I can't afford to take down the fundraisiing sticky, and the Rottenbergs need money, too.

[Loshonhora]

Hevei mesunim badin. Be patient in judgement,[at the begining of pirkei avos].
Means when you have a shaalah you don't always say muter even it is muter [permitted] you have to think of what it will be used for in all the comming generations. For that reason those who permitted electricity, agreed to forbid it.
As for texting on Shabboss I don't believe your statistics.
More so if it is an addiction it should be treated like drugs & alchahol, children under age should be forbidden to text. I am waiting for states & the fed to pass a law like that eventualy.Of couse like there are many under age smokers & drinkers this will not work entirly.
That said any one addicted may be better off with time out once a week, it could well help cure the adiction.
Now most yeshivos or at least mesivtas forbid cell phones & ipods, that doesn't mean they are 100% sucessful, but they could cure the epidemic by expelling those who don't adhere to the rules.
Unfortunatly many are busineses, and corporations who think about their customers in Dollars & cents only.

[ADDeRabbi]

Shmarya - several months ago I wrote about the issue, including why I think it's a real problem of permanent writing. According to the Ran, any normal form of permanent writing would constitute koteiv, as the concept of melekhet mahshevet would overcome any deficiency in the act (ve-ein kan makom le-ha'arikh).
Here's the post:
http://adderabbi.blogspot.com/2010/11/half-shabbos-big-tent-orthodoxy-texting.html

[Shmarya]

Posted by: ADDeRabbi | June 22, 2011 at 01:55 PM

But it isn't permanent. The bits are code and only display when asked to.

Ran or no Ran, it isn't a problem.

[zibble]

Interested readers are referred to http://www.daat.ac.il/daat/english/journal/broyde_1.htm for a comprehensive article on electricity on shabbat.

[masortiman]

"So don't text – but don't enforce your view on others."

I dont believe in coercion as a part of halacha in general. I wouldnt "enforce" my view that pork is treyf on others either. I am trying to wrestle with both my own observance, the standards I beleive my movement should establish (though in almost all cases we are accepting of people who dont follow those standards) and what I would suggest to people in an online forum such as this. Surely you are not suggesting that where the halachic questions are clear, that enforcement is appropriate?

One of the specific rabbis who objected to the Neulander tshuva was R Isaac Klein, one of the gedolim of the C movement. He took the position that Am Israel naturally associated electricity with fire because of their heavily (if not completely) overlapping uses. And his belief that the electricity tshuva would inevitably lead to lower levels of spirituality. I am not going to dismiss Klein on your say so.

esp when its based on something as nebulous as "the hungarians and their allies" What sort of allies? On this topic only? On other aspects of halacha? On all aspects of Judaism?

"But it isn't permanent. The bits are code and only display when asked to"

So if someone writes in invisible ink, which is only visible when held over a bright light, is that not writing? Its a permanent change, and its retrievable easily.

[masortiman]

I suggest this

http://www.schechter.edu/AskTheRabbi.aspx?ID=387

[Menachem Mendel]

Hopefully by the end of the year there will be a newer and more comprehensive responsum discussed and published by the CLJS (Conservative) about electricity.

[Menachem Mendel]

Sorry, that's CJLS (Committee on Jewish Law and Standards)

[ah-pee-chorus]

there is a shul on long island , ohav shalom, classified as orthodox, which used a microphone until a new rabbi came in a couple of years ago.

Leah- i can assure you that a large percentage of HAFTR kids do text on shabbos. i cant say whether its 30% or 70% but 50% doesnt seem far-fetched.

[Ed Greenberg]

The cell phone is Muktsa! You should not even pick it up. Certainly can't carry it outside a home or eruv. We didn't have cell phones when I was young, but we certainly had portable electronic devices that we were expected to leave alone for Shabbos, along with our wallets and other items that were for weekdays.

We all make our own judgment calls about what we do and don't do, so this is not really news. Let people make their own peace with Hashem and with their parents.

[masortiman]

MM

Really? I look forward to it. I would like it to address not only the technical issues raised here, but the experience of 'catholic Israel' IE what observant Conservative Jews have found impacts spirituality, by trial and error (in particular with regard to television) Also the issues raised by PCs and cell phones, more modern forms of lighting, etc, etc.

Shmarya

You quote R Auerbach - here is Broyde on Auerbach

"Rabbi Auerbach (Minchat Shlomo 74, 84), after rejecting all the potential sources discussed above for prohibiting the use of electricity when no light or heat is generated, concludes that, at least in theory, electrical appliances that use no heat or light (e.g., a fan) are permitted on Shabbat and Yom Tov. However, he declines actually to permit their use absent urgent need. He states:

In my opinion there is no prohibition [to use electricity] on Shabbat or Yom Tov... There is no prohibition of ma'keh bepatish or molid... (However, I [Rabbi Auerbach] am afraid that the masses will err and turn on incandescent lights on Shabbat, and thus I do not permit electricity absent great need...) ... This matter requires further analysis.

* * * *
However, the key point in my opinion is that there is no prohibition to use electricity on Shabbat unless the electricity causes a prohibited act like cooking or starting a flame.

Rabbi Auerbach additionally states that since the tradition forbids the use of electricity, and this tradition received near unanimous approval from rabbinic authorities in the normal course of events observant Jews should accept this tradition (even though he feels it is based on incorrect premises) and operate under the presumption that the use of electricity without light or heat is a violation, of rabbinic origin, based on molid.41 Only in the case of urgent need does he allow one to rely on his opinion that electricity is permitted where no heat or light is generated. "

[seymour]

when I was frum I used to text but I used a shinu i used my left hand therefore it was ok

[Shmarya]

The cell phone is Muktsa!…

Posted by: Ed Greenberg | June 22, 2011 at 02:39 PM

It can't be muksa, Ed, if it isn't assur and can't lead to anything assur.

[Shmarya]

here is Broyde on Auerbach…However, the key point in my opinion is that there is no prohibition to use electricity on Shabbat unless the electricity causes a prohibited act like cooking or starting a flame.…

Posted by: masortiman | June 22, 2011 at 02:43 PM

You're simply repeating what I wrote.

[ah-pee-chorus]

The cell phone is Muktsa! You should not even pick it up. Posted by: Ed Greenberg

ed- if use of cellphones is permissible based on feinsteins battery hetter, or a universal electricity hetter , then it would not be muktza. you state it backwards. it isnt that muktza makes something prohibited, it is that when something has no permitted use on shabbos it BECOMES muktza.

[ah-pee-chorus]

when I was frum I used to text but I used a shinu i used my left hand therefore it was ok

Posted by: seymour |

excellent. when i drive on shabbos i drive on the left side of the road. i rely on god to protect me from oncoming traffic.

[Shmarya]

Posted by: masortiman | June 22, 2011 at 02:27 PM

You're in way over your head.

One of the specific rabbis who objected to the Neulander tshuva was R Isaac Klein, one of the gedolim of the C movement. He took the position that Am Israel naturally associated electricity with fire because of their heavily (if not completely) overlapping uses. And his belief that the electricity tshuva would inevitably lead to lower levels of spirituality. I am not going to dismiss Klein on your say so.

What Klein is doing is saying two things: it might come to be used for forbidden things and it is too closely linked to fire.

A normal person reading that understand that Klein is admitting it is no prohibited by biblical or rabbinic law, and should instead be prohibited as a precaution.

But that would be a normal person with some actual learning background.

And, again, Klein's reasons were rejected by many actual poskim of the generations previous to him, not to mention many of his Conservative collegues.

"But it isn't permanent. The bits are code and only display when asked to"

So if someone writes in invisible ink, which is only visible when held over a bright light, is that not writing? Its a permanent change, and its retrievable easily.

Yes. If someone write in invisible ink, it is not a violation of Shabbat d'orita.

And if someone write with ink that will disappear over time so that it will be gone in a day or so, it is not a violation of Shabbat, and this is used to create a way for doctors to write notes that can be transcribed by non-Jews on Shabbat or by Jews afterward.

[masortiman]

"You're in way over your head."

I am aware of that. Nonetheless one must make choices, and until I see a CJLS tshuva that clarifies everything being addressed, I will have to wrestle as I can.

"What Klein is doing is saying two things: it might come to be used for forbidden things and it is too closely linked to fire.

A normal person reading that understand that Klein is admitting it is no prohibited by biblical or rabbinic law, and should instead be prohibited as a precaution."

I actually did see that - I did not explicitly say that, I thought it was clear. IIUC that is close to Auerbachs actual position. Neither is "this is less than a minhag" whatever that means.

"But that would be a normal person with some actual learning background."

I consider myself pretty normal. Among us not of O background "you're not normal" is not part of ordinary polite discourse.

My learning background is fairly sporadic - I am of Reform background. I can read though.

"And, again, Klein's reasons were rejected by many actual poskim of the generations previous to him, not to mention many of his Conservative collegues."

I am quite aware that his position was rejected by other C colleagues - if you recall I mentioned the Neulander tshuva. I also stated that until recently I was not even aware ANY C jews did followed the ban on electicity. I am merely stating that there seem to be two positions held by C poskim - while that is mainly of interest to C jews like myself, its relevance here, was wrt to what I read as ban on electricity being soley a matter of "hungarians and their allies" If you are saying that the position that use of electricty is banned D'oraita is only a position of hungarians and their allies, that is something different.

"Yes. If someone write in invisible ink, it is not a violation of Shabbat d'orita."

Interesting, I did not know that.

"And if someone write with ink that will disappear over time so that it will be gone in a day or so, it is not a violation of Shabbat, and this is used to create a way for doctors to write notes that can be transcribed by non-Jews on Shabbat or by Jews afterward."

less relevant since saved bits will NOT disappear in a day or two. If they do, your PC/cellphone/whatever has major issues.

[masortiman]

"Yes. If someone write in invisible ink, it is not a violation of Shabbat d'orita.""

is it a violation of shabbat d'rabbanan?

[Betzalel]

Scientifically, our bodies are able to move as a result of electro-magnetic force. Can anyone explain to me why we are still allowed to move our bodies on shabbos if we are prohibitted from using electricty?

[masortiman]

"You're simply repeating what I wrote"

if you think so.

I also quoted this

"Rabbi Auerbach additionally states that since the tradition forbids the use of electricity, and this tradition received near unanimous approval from rabbinic authorities in the normal course of events observant Jews should accept this tradition (even though he feels it is based on incorrect premises) and operate under the presumption that the use of electricity without light or heat is a violation, of rabbinic origin, "

I am NOT sure how "near unanimous approval from rabbinic authorities" becomes "the hungarians and their allies"

I know you think Im an ignoramus, but my reading of the tenor of your posts is that texting is permissable on the shabbat, that R auerbach and r Feinstein approved of the use of electricty (other than cooking and incandescent lighting) on shabbat, and that folks worrying about half shabbat are being silly. From what I can gather that is not the case. Rather all major authorities prior to the mid-20th century considered electrity on shabbat forbidden. Auerbach indicated the weakness of arguments that its forbidden d'oraita, but considered it necessary to observe - I am not clear on whether Auerbach considered it halacha d'rabanan or minhag. The only major halachic authority accepting the use of electricity on shabbat as actual practice, is the CJLS, following the Neulander tshuva, and that is NOT universal within C (again, see klein).

[Shmarya]

less relevant since saved bits will NOT disappear in a day or two. If they do, your PC/cellphone/whatever has major issues.

Posted by: masortiman | June 22, 2011 at 03:27 PM

Again, you're in way over your head.

Look at it this way you have 100 equal block of plain wood. You use them to spell out a word. You then pick the blocks up and return them to their box. Later you take them out again and spell out the word again.

Is the writing permanent?

Of course not.

And that is in effect what computers and cellphones do.

[masortiman]

shmarya on Auerbach"It does not have the status of a biblically-based or rabbinic prohibition. It's like a custom, but less than a custom. "

broyde on Auerbach" observant Jews should accept this tradition (even though he feels it is based on incorrect premises) and operate under the presumption that the use of electricity without light or heat is a violation, of rabbinic origin, "

ISTM that shmarya and broyde charecterize auerbachs position differently. Am I correct, or is this just me being a not normal reform educated ignoramus?

[Leah]

Leah- i can assure you that a large percentage of HAFTR kids do text on shabbos. i cant say whether its 30% or 70% but 50% doesnt seem far-fetched.

Posted by: ah-pee-chorus | June 22, 2011 at 02:34 PM

Then we do have a problem. Although it would bother me as a religious problem I am now more concerned that this problem extends into texting while driving which is a danger to us all. I can only conclude that the need to text is almost beyond their control, like drugs, and needs to be addressed on multiple levels, not just on the rabbinic and not just on shabbos.

[Shmarya]

I am NOT sure how "near unanimous approval from rabbinic authorities" becomes "the hungarians and their allies"

That would be for several reasons.

1. You're quoting Broyde and assuming that RSZA said that. He did not.

2. You don't know history and Broyde isn't citing it.

[Shmarya]

shmarya on Auerbach"It does not have the status of a biblically-based or rabbinic prohibition. It's like a custom, but less than a custom. "

broyde on Auerbach" observant Jews should accept this tradition (even though he feels it is based on incorrect premises) and operate under the presumption that the use of electricity without light or heat is a violation, of rabbinic origin, "

ISTM that shmarya and broyde charecterize auerbachs position differently. Am I correct, or is this just me being a not normal reform educated ignoramus?

Posted by: masortiman | June 22, 2011 at 03:44 PM

What RSZA said is that it isn't even a shvut.

[David]

The Charedim always find loopholes. On more than one occassion on Shabbos I have:

- seen a young child held next to a light switch and encourage to play with it hoping they will turn it ON.

- seen a grown black hat stand next to the air conditioning control saying "I'm hot, I'm hot" and expecting his non-Jewish domestic staff to adjust the temperature on his hint.

- I was once asked to carry a cake to shul from someone's house because the Chabad person whose cake it was did not follow the eruv but they expected I would!

- seen Shabbat violations at a Chabad shul whre non-Jewish staff are asked to do numerous tasks such as clean and be observant of a wide range of pre-determined hints to do things like adjust temperature and do various other support tasks prohibited for Jews.

[george]

Betzalel

Because even when a physical action is the same, the meaning of the physical action may differ.

So, for example, separating a bone out of a fish on a table on Shabbat may be forbidden as an act ("work") of separating bad (inedible) from the good (edible).

But once the fish (with the bone) is in one's mouth for eating, they have become part of an "act of eating" and removing the same bone from the same fish using the same fingers to the same affect has become permitted as an "act of eating".

[Alex]

One need not revisit the entire history of the debate on whether or not the use of electricity is permitted or forbidden on Shabbos to decide that its use should indeed be proscribed on Shabbos. When one identifies the philosophical principal underlying the prohibition of the performance of malachos on Shabbos then the use of electricity is seen as antithetical to the purpose of Shabbos. Namely, Shabbos is designated as a day when man is obligated to recognize the supremacy of God and hence a man should desist from engaging in acts of creative mastery of the world which divert his attention from the ultimate truth.

[masortiman]

"That would be for several reasons.

1. You're quoting Broyde and assuming that RSZA said that. He did not."

So you're saying Broyde is mischarecterizing Auerbach? Do we have a link to what Auerbach actually said?

[masortiman]

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Michael_Broyde

hmmm.

[masortiman]

"Do we have a link to what Auerbach actually said? "

b'anglit, if possible

[Shmarya]

I told you what he said.

And no, it isn't in English.

As for Broyde, what he wrote is misleading because people like you are prone to misunderstand it.

[Aleksandr Sigalov]

In my very humble opinion, I think the major problem here is misinterpretation of the only occurence of this "fire prohibition" of Exod. 35:3

I think what the text really says: "DO NOT ERADICATE fire throughout your habitations upon the sabbath day."

Double negative.

After all, God blessed and hallowed 7th day and also rested, so I think it is only logical to assume that shaboth is in the essence a celebration of light.

Having said that, electricity in itself is not a "fire" but rather "water", but it does sometimes come from fire (i.e coal burning electric stations).

Also, the major issue here is that someone has to actually run a power plant on shabboth.

On the other hand, Altar of Burnt Offering of the Tabernacle was constantly burning.

And so-called" Pillar of Fire was over the Tabernacle during the night.

I think this does say something!?!

However, I think if observant people would use stored electricity (batteries) instead of live electricity (power outlet) on shabboth, I think this would be the best solution that one could come up with.

[ADDeRabbi]

SHmarya - the display is not the writing. The bits and bytes are. That's how the data is stored (permanently). And since it's the ubiquitous manner for physical storage of a message, it becomes koteiv mi-de'orayta.

[Shmarya]

One need not revisit the entire history of the debate on whether or not the use of electricity is permitted or forbidden on Shabbos to decide that its use should indeed be proscribed on Shabbos. When one identifies the philosophical principal underlying the prohibition of the performance of malachos on Shabbos then the use of electricity is seen as antithetical to the purpose of Shabbos. Namely, Shabbos is designated as a day when man is obligated to recognize the supremacy of God and hence a man should desist from engaging in acts of creative mastery of the world which divert his attention from the ultimate truth.

Posted by: Alex | June 22, 2011 at 04:11 PM

A shoteh gamur.

So we shouldn't read books on Shabbos? Or have electric lights controlled by timers?

How is textinga frind, "Meet me in shul in 15 minutes to learn" "antithetical to the purpose of Shabbos"?

If TV and radio had not been banned there would now be 24 hours of Torah classes and the like broadcast in most major locations every Shabbos, and far more Torah would be learned than is the case today.

Technology is what you make of it. It can be holy or profane, Shabbosdikkeh or not.

[masortiman]

"I told you what he said.

And no, it isn't in English"

You imply I am "not normal" and you ask me to accept your statement about what Auerbach said, on faith?

[masortiman]

"Rabbi Neuwirth also made many of Rabbi Auerbach's rulings on Hilkhot Shabbat (Shabbat laws) widely known in his bestselling book, which was first published in Hebrew in 1965[6][7] and subsequently rendered into English.[8]"

Do you consider neuwirths book reliable? If so I might take a look. If not, I will simply await the CJLS tshuva.

[Shmarya]

SHmarya - the display is not the writing. The bits and bytes are. That's how the data is stored (permanently). And since it's the ubiquitous manner for physical storage of a message, it becomes koteiv mi-de'orayta.

Posted by: ADDeRabbi | June 22, 2011 at 04:28 PM

It doesn't, because the bits are not recognized letters and can only be understood by recalling them on a screen.

[Shmarya]

He tends to make some of RSZA's rulings stricter than they really were.

That has to do with Hungarian goods with baseball bats, but I don't want to confuse your great (and ignorant) sense of tolerance.

[masortiman]

"How is textinga frind, "Meet me in shul in 15 minutes to learn" "antithetical to the purpose of Shabbos"?"

because then folks are looking down at their phones, checking for texts instead of interacting with the live human beings in the room with them. Or worse, the text chime is interupting the conversation. Ditto with phone calls on shabbos - including old fashioned calls on land lines. Ditto TV.

When I go to Boro Park or Williamsburg, I hate the intellectual backwardness, the attitudes toward women, etc. But I love the vacation from technology on Shabbat. Some secular people are looking to that

http://www.tabletmag.com/life-and-religion/70048/powering-down-2/

http://www.experiencelifemag.com/issues/june-2009/life-wisdom/you-unplugged.php

i think these secular folks, who apparently are also unlearned like me, see something that perhaps you are missing.

[masortiman]

"That has to do with Hungarian goods with baseball bats, but I don't want to confuse your great (and ignorant) sense of tolerance"

Whatever makhloikes you have with them, your way of expressing yourself in disagreement certainly still fits the haredi world very well.

[Shmarya]

Posted by: masortiman | June 22, 2011 at 04:46 PM

Yes, you are quite ignorant.

The idyllic Shabbos you yearn for was not a part of Shabbos originally and no one would have even considered the possibility.

Shabbos is abstaining from what is biblically considered work to show that God has mastery over the world.

That's it. No more, no less.

As for texting interrupting a conversation, that's all about good manners – not Shabbat law.

[ADDeRabbi]

It doesn't, because the bits are not recognized letters and can only be understood by recalling them on a screen.

Posted by: Shmarya | June 22, 2011 at 04:37 PM

That's precisely where the Ran comes in. He relates to writing as an abstraction, not an act.

Writing IS an abstraction, a way that humans communicate by putting information in a permanent form, be it pen & paper or bits & bytes. The symbols, the physical form of the letters are meaningless as long as the message gets across and is stored in some permanent fashion.

[Shmarya]

"That has to do with Hungarian goods with baseball bats, but I don't want to confuse your great (and ignorant) sense of tolerance"

Whatever makhloikes you have with them, your way of expressing yourself in disagreement certainly still fits the haredi world very well.

Posted by: masortiman | June 22, 2011 at 04:53 PM

My point is that you are in way over your head.

I've written this several times already.

But you continue (largely) to act as if you know what you're doing.

Have you ever seen an Orthodox teshuva? Studied one?

You don't even realize how they differ from the Conservative responsa you cite.

And you somehow think those Conservative responsa should apply to a discussion on Orthodox practice.

You don't understand Orthodox politics or know the history of intimidation of moderates by conservatives and extremists.

You just jump in and assume what you're saying is relevant and that it applies to this post in the way you want it to apply – but it does not.

[Morris the Katz]

Loshon Hora writes:

More so if it is an addiction it should be treated like drugs & alchahol, children under age should be forbidden to text. I am waiting for states & the fed to pass a law like that eventualy.Of couse like there are many under age smokers & drinkers this will not work entirly.
-------------------------------------------

You will be waiting a long, long time. Texting is speech, and speech is constitutionally protected in this country. Even for Orthodox Jews.

Eat your heart out.

[masortiman]

"Yes, you are quite ignorant."

You lack social skills. Often correlated with a strong love of technology.

"The idyllic Shabbos you yearn for was not a part of Shabbos originally and no one would have even considered the possibility."

I dont know what was exactly the case "originally". There is evidence that shabbas originated rather late in the biblical era. It was undoubtedly not then what it was in the talmudic era, and not then what it was in the 19th century. What I yearn for is something I have found, most especially at homes that were C or Modern O, though I get some aspects of it even in haredi homes.

"Shabbos is abstaining from what is biblically considered work to show that God has mastery over the world."

What something is in rabbinic philosophy does not exhaust what it is in sociological reality. Shabbat practice would have meaning even if G-d did not exist, or if G-d is merely how we refer to the forces that make for salvation. Ultimately Shabbat is what Am Israel says it is.

this is restatement of what R'Kaplan, z'l, said it was

"But the Sabbath is not only a symbol of the wholeness to be achieved by communion with God and community. It is itself an instrument that we may use to advantage in our pursuit of wholeness. We need more than ever before to end each week with a day that has the ability to stimulate our thirst for wholeness and keep us mindful of the ideals that lead to its attainment. Otherwise our mere preoccupation with the business of “making a living,” that is, of securing the conditions indispensable to life, tends to absorb all our attention, and life itself becomes empty and meaningless. We work to keep alive that we may work to keep alive, until our powers are spent on this weary treadmill, and death brings surcease of labor. If life is to be lived zestfully, to employ all those human faculties the full exercise of which calls forth true joy in being alive, we dare not permit life to sink to such a level of mere preoccupation with the problem of survival. The Sabbath, with its insistence upon interrupting the routine of our daily business and concerning ourselves with spiritual values, helps to save us from such a fate."

[masortiman]

"As for texting interrupting a conversation, that's all about good manners – not Shabbat law."

You want me to discuss the impact of technology on MANNERS with someone calling me ignorant and "not normal"

[Shmarya]

That's precisely where the Ran comes in. He relates to writing as an abstraction, not an act.

Writing IS an abstraction, a way that humans communicate by putting information in a permanent form, be it pen & paper or bits & bytes. The symbols, the physical form of the letters are meaningless as long as the message gets across and is stored in some permanent fashion.

Posted by: ADDeRabbi | June 22, 2011 at 04:58 PM
Shmarya

So you're advocating holding by a man whose opinion would forbid many forms of communication used on Shabbat by Hatzolah, doctors, etc?

Because his opinion, cute as it is, has no biblical basis.

[masortiman]

"But you continue (largely) to act as if you know what you're doing.

Have you ever seen an Orthodox teshuva? Studied one?"

yes, as a matter of fact. I studied modern halachic issues at Baltimore Hebrew Univ with Dr Joseph Baumgarten.

"You don't even realize how they differ from the Conservative responsa you cite."

And you somehow think those Conservative responsa should apply to a discussion on Orthodox practice."

I am not saying that they should apply to O practice. I am saying that they are indicative of the general state of earlier halachic decisors. I cannot believe that if the halacha was so clearly in favor of the position you argue for, except for a faction and its allies, that that would not have impacted the C discussion.

"You don't understand Orthodox politics or know the history of intimidation of moderates by conservatives and extremists."

I have gotten a hint of it, but I claim no expertise on that.

[Shmarya]

"Yes, you are quite ignorant."

You lack social skills. Often correlated with a strong love of technology.

I lack tolerance for people who have the arrogance to presume they know much about things they know little about, and who then inflict that 'knowledge' on others in public forums.

As for the rest of what you write, texting is no different than talking.

Just like you shouldn't talk during prayer or when others are talking, you shouldn't text during prayer or answer texts while talking to others.

Got that?

[Alex]

Scott,

Perhaps now that the fever swamp that you call a mind has cooled a bit you will re-read what I wrote and then reconsider your comments and apologize for once again violating your own rules.

Incidentally, benefiting from electricity is not the same as using electricity. Furthermore the likelihood of violating the spirit of Shabbos is so great as to warrant not using electronic devises at all. Just as an alcoholic is advised to become a teetotaler so too should we desist from using (not benefiting)electronic devices on Shabbos.

[Shmarya]

I cannot believe that if the halacha was so clearly in favor of the position you argue for, except for a faction and its allies, that that would not have impacted the C discussion.

For it to have impact, these C rabbis of your would have to know the history. But most did not and do not.

[Shmarya]

Furthermore the likelihood of violating the spirit of Shabbos is so great as to warrant not using electronic devises at all. Just as an alcoholic is advised to become a teetotaler so too should we desist from using (not benefiting)electronic devices on Shabbos.

Posted by: Alex | June 22, 2011 at 05:18 PM

That's your OPINION. But your OPINION is not halakha.

In fact, the rabbis who enforced their political and social preferences of Jews now face mass Shabbos violation as a result.

That's what this post is about. Got that? (Of course you don't.)

[Loshonhora]

Shmaryahooo!
So you became a Rabbi again, and not just a Rabbi Posek hador & not just of this generation, but the previous & the prewar? WOW!!!!
You now are the descision maker of which posek was right & which wrong & you say texting on Shabboss is permitted?
I thought you were once a Rabbi now an unorthodox Homosexual sympathiser, or Apikoires anti-orthodox?
Lately you seem a little bi-polar, are you hearing voices too?

[effie]

Shmarya: Loshonhora contributes nothing but personnel insults. Why do you allow him to remain?

[A Yid]

Shmarya, no-one has revoked Lubavitcher Rebe's smicha.
Your calling him by the middle name in contrast to other rabbis quoted in the article (rabbis who by the way had utmost respect for him and would never allow themselves to refer to him the way you do and would rebuke you if you would have done it in their presence)
highlights your arrogance, rudeness and disrespect for Torah scholars.

[Loshonhora]

Shmarya: Loshonhora contributes nothing but personnel insults. Why do you allow him to remain?

Posted by: effie | June 22, 2011 at 07:32 PM

Ef......you.
Who said Loshonhora is a he?
I guess you got ofended earlier on, only you should have the privalage to insult others?

[Rivky]

there's no way to use a cell phone on shabbos without turning on a light.

[A Yid]

That's your OPINION. But your OPINION is not halakha.

[...]

Posted by: Shmarya | June 22, 2011 at 05:22 PM

ולרשע אמר אלהים מה לך לספר חקי וגו'
תהילים נ
דף טו,ב חגיגה

[moom]

I've long thought that the last people on Earth who will be using printed books will be Orthodox Jews who need to read on Shabbat and Hagim...

[Shmarya]

Shmarya, no-one has revoked Lubavitcher Rebe's smicha.
Your calling him by the middle name in contrast to other rabbis quoted in the article (rabbis who by the way had utmost respect for him and would never allow themselves to refer to him the way you do and would rebuke you if you would have done it in their presence)
highlights your arrogance, rudeness and disrespect for Torah scholars.

Posted by: A Yid | June 22, 2011 at 07:33 PM

I realize historical truth is difficult for you as a cult member, but do try to process: He did not have smicha and everyone who know him called him Mendel.

As for who honored him and who did not, the more big non-Chabad scholars knew him, the less they honored him. Hamyvin Yavin.

[Shmarya]

Posted by: A Yid | June 22, 2011 at 08:18 PM

You do realize that besides being a cult member, you're also an ignoramus, don't you?

[Shmarya]

there's no way to use a cell phone on shabbos without turning on a light.

Posted by: Rivky | June 22, 2011 at 08:15 PM

You don't understand what a halakhic light is. LEDs and other such devices are not lights in that sense. Incandescent bulbs are. There are no incandescent bulbs in cell phones.

[Loshonhora]

He did not have smicha and everyone who know him called him Mendel.

As for who honored him and who did not, the more big non-Chabad scholars knew him, the less they honored him. Hamyvin Yavin.

Posted by: Shmarya | June 22, 2011 at 09:54 PM

He was one of the 17 musmachim of the Rogitzovi Gaon,[of dvinsk] some say that he he really knew his stuff like the other 16, others say seeing the Rogitzovi Gaon was a son of Talmid of the Maharash of Lubuvitch he gave it to him without a bechina,because everone would know why he got it.
Bottom line is he had at least one smicha.
BTW I am not Lubavitch.

[Shmarya]

The Rebbe did not study with the Rogachover.

[Alex]

That's your OPINION. But your OPINION is not halakha. In fact, the rabbis who enforced their political and social preferences of Jews now face mass Shabbos violation as a result. That's what this post is about. Got that? (Of course you don't.)
Posted by: Shmarya | June 22, 2011 at 05:22 PM

Scotty, Your unraveling, again. What to do? As A. Huxley would advise, "Better a gram than a damn." Or if you prefer L. Reed, "Valium would have helped that bash."

[Loshonhora]

The Rebbe did not study with the Rogachover.

Posted by: Shmarya | June 22, 2011 at 10:39 PM

I never said he studied with him,I said he had smicha from him. Have you forgotten how to read?

[Shmarya]

You wrote:
He was one of the 17 musmachim of the Rogitzovi GaonBut he wasn't. They exchanged a letter or two.

[Loshonhora]

He was one of the 17 musmachim of the Rogitzovi Gaon
But he wasn't. They exchanged a letter or two.

Posted by: Shmarya | June 22, 2011 at 10:53 PM
Prove it, & see the title on the letter & for that matter the title R" Moshe Feinstein gives him, That is enough proof to me, now you prove he didn't have smicha.
BTW you say you were a Rabbi, & you seem to claim to be a posek who gave you smicha?

[Shmarya]

Please.

You're illiterate and fool.

There is no evidence anyone gave the Rebbe semicha. See Friedman and Heilman's book for a discussion of this.

As for Rav Moshe, if I introduced myself as a rav, and if I sounded normal in the letter, he would respond to me as a rav.

You have to be a certifiable idiot or an ignoramus to take that as evidence of semicha.

[ADDeRabbi]

So you're advocating holding by a man whose opinion would forbid many forms of communication used on Shabbat by Hatzolah, doctors, etc?

Because his opinion, cute as it is, has no biblical basis.

Posted by: Shmarya | June 22, 2011 at 05:08 PM

Certainly not! AFAIK, all of Tzomet's innovations make sure that the writing is not permanent. If there are doctors or Hatzolah hockers who text instead, that's their business.

Shmarya, in case you hadn't noticed, the entire prohibition of writing on SHabbat has no biblical basis. On the particular issue (how to understand why the Gemara seems to recognize no issue of 'chak tochot' on Shabbat), the only two positions I'm aware of are the Ran and Rashba. The Ran makes far more sense. Of course, it's been a couple years since I learned the sugya. I'm sure it's much fresher in your mind.

[Shmarya]

Of course, it's been a couple years since I learned the sugya. I'm sure it's much fresher in your mind.

Posted by: ADDeRabbi | June 23, 2011 at 02:58 AM

It's been a hell of a lot longer since I learned it and it's not fresh in my mind!

Anyway, there are a dozen good reasons to permit texting for doctors, etc., and I don't think the Ran is enough to prohibit.

[Adam Neira]

People should not text or call in a shul. Full stop. The only time this would be allowed us if there was a danger to life. The problem with modern technology is that can intrude when not wanted. The idea of Shabbat is beautiful because it is about you and G-d connecting with no interference. I also hate people using phones in a cinema, library, gallery or museum. Some places are best served by the faculties of reflection, quietude, contemplation and gentle focus. Manic teenagers love to text because it gives them a sense of belonging. I know if a lady who's 17 y.o. daughter did 4200 text messages in a month. That's one every seven minutes of her waking life. Her mother was worried she would suffer from RSI.

[A. E. ANDERSON]

I think it's fascinating to see how halakhic practice is influenced by factions, such as the Hungarians and their ally JI Schneersohn with respect to electricity use on Shabbat.

Nonetheless, one must always be careful not to posit monocausal answers for historical phenomena. To say electrical use is forbidden on Shabbat because of a Hungarian cabal is so facile as to be misleading.

I think one must, among other factors, also look to the widespread adoption of electricity and the massive proliferation of electrical devices over the period in question. The very nature of Shabbat as a day of rest had, well before mid-century, threatened the very peaceful nature of the day of rest. Clearly, halakha would come to reflect this as ever more observant Jews came to use electricity and electrical devices in their homes.

I think Rabbi (M.M.) Schneerson was well regarded in his time for his efforts to analyse scientific matters for a halakhic audience. One can respect him for these efforts without having to endure being labeled a cult member.

[Loshonhora]

Please.

You're illiterate and fool.

Posted by: Shmarya | June 23, 2011 at 01:36 AM

& you are?
The biggest posek of the last few generations?
Who gave you smicha?

[mhalberstam]

shmarya you have to get over the knee jerk approach that everything would be ok if not for the Hungarians. In fact in almost every case, there is no really good reason for a person to text on Shabbos. Under the circumstances, what is the big deal if they don't? If your attitude is simply that we need to accommodate everyone you are just wrong. People do need to absorb some sense of the kedusha of Shabbos. If ther is an issue of medical necessity or other serious need, of course it is another question and should be dealt with differently.

[sarah]

Shmaya, what is up with you? Have you suddenly become a Rabbi and Posek?

In my humble opinion, you have absolutely no idea what you are talking about, you use Hebrew words, but probably cannot read a sefer shaalot uteshuvot in Hebrew, let alone fully understand it.

Keep to your expertise of bashing yiden. You have no training or experience in torah true halacha.

(Did Rabbi Shlomo Zalman Auerbach allow the use of electricity and telephones? Did Rabbi Moshe Feinstein do the same? When telephone and electricity just came out some rabbi’s had no idea what it was (since they had no training in the field) and some engineer convinced some rabbis that it was no problem. As they became more aware of what these really are, they ALL banned it outrightly. Every single leading orthodox posek will tell you this!)

[The Hungarian Invasion]

Once again it becomes clear that the (historically questionable) Jewish post war Hungarian immigrants brought with them the seeds of the destruction of American Orthodox Jewry. A virus of stubborn ignorance.

Absent their bizarrely high birth rate (think, Latino and African American) they would have been relegated to the trash heap of ignorami everywhere. Unfortunately, they've created a societal problem (think Latino and African American) with their sheer numbers. So, we all live in the trash heap they've created.

So long as they refuse to be dragged into at least the 19th century they have little hope of survival.

Our concern should be protecting ourselves from the collateral damage their melt down will cause.

[Neo-conservaguy]

(Did Rabbi Shlomo Zalman Auerbach allow the use of electricity and telephones? Did Rabbi Moshe Feinstein do the same? When telephone and electricity just came out some rabbi’s had no idea what it was (since they had no training in the field) and some engineer convinced some rabbis that it was no problem. As they became more aware of what these really are, they ALL banned it outrightly. Every single leading orthodox posek will tell you this!)

One could offer the thought that the situation is a parallel with the "requirement" for "glatt" (per the Rema, not Beit Yosef) or for kosher cheese supervised according to the maximal opinion (against the Rema). Non-glatt kosher meat and minimally supervised (if at all) kosher cheese were norms in many Orthodox communities in the last century. Now, nearly 100% of Orthodox rabbis would claim these standards, "are not what our communities should be holding", or some other verbal Aikido that attempts to deflect from the historic realities.

My interest is in consistent halakhik positions, so if one holds that turning on an electric light is kindling fire, then one should also consider such an action fulfilling the blessing made on Chanukah. I do not. I wonder what the Orthodox rabbinate holds on the use of LED "light bulbs" in a Chanukiah?

[Shmarya]

(Did Rabbi Shlomo Zalman Auerbach allow the use of electricity and telephones? Did Rabbi Moshe Feinstein do the same? When telephone and electricity just came out some rabbi’s had no idea what it was (since they had no training in the field) and some engineer convinced some rabbis that it was no problem. As they became more aware of what these really are, they ALL banned it outrightly. Every single leading orthodox posek will tell you this!)

Posted by: sarah | June 23, 2011 at 09:21 AM

Sarah,

You don't know halakha and you don't know history – and you most certainly do not know science.

Electricity is not a d'orita or a d'rabbanan.

It's not even a shvut.

And the rabbis who originally ruled to permit electricity usage on Shabbat were absolutely correct. The science backs them.

[masortiman]

"For it to have impact, these C rabbis of your would have to know the history. But most did not and do not."

You are all of a sudden an expert on what R' Isaac Klein knew?

These are men who were colleagues of R' Saul Lieberman, who IIUC was highly respected in the modern Orthodox world. I do not believe your judgement of them.

[masortiman]

"As for the rest of what you write, texting is no different than talking.

Just like you shouldn't talk during prayer or when others are talking, you shouldn't text during prayer or answer texts while talking to others."

The issue is not just during prayers, but during conversations, at mealtimes, etc. The intrusive quality of cell phones in general and of texting in particular, have been noted by folks who have nothing to do with Judaism.

[masortiman]

" lack tolerance for people who have the arrogance to presume they know much about things they know little about, and who then inflict that 'knowledge' on others in public forums."

I have not claimed to know much, but I know enough to raise some questions. I may have only read a few Orthodox tshuvot (and in English) and a few Conservative tshuvot, and bit of Klein, etc - but I have extensively studied western analytic disciplines, and I beleive one can ask questions of any logical system using them.

I also believe that he who is wise learns from every person. I TRY to be polite and to learn from people who know less than I do in a given field. I expect my questions and confusions to be dealt with in similar fashion. That you respond by name calling does not speak well of you.

[Shmarya]

Again, the issue is one of manners, and we don't need to ban something for your comfort.

If you were a bit more alert, you might have understood the point of this post: that when you ban things to make political points or to draw tighter, non-halakhic lines around the community, the end result is that people often end up breaking real halakhot root in real Torah law.

As for Klein and his friends, to compare him to Saul Lieberman is a ridiculous. It's like comparing a fly to a fruit tree.

I admire your desire to learn.

But I don't admire your lack of awareness of your own ignorance.

[sarah]

“You're illiterate and fool. There is no evidence anyone gave the Rebbe semicha. See Friedman and Heilman's book for a discussion of this.”

Shmarya, do you believe that just because you regurgitate these untruths they will become more of a fat of life? It is well known that the Rebbe got semicha from the Rogetchover. See also these video’s about semicha Rabbi Weinberg of the Rabbinical seminary of Berlin.

See these 3 links (if facts mean anything to you).

chabad.org/748972
chabad.org/1264762
chabad.org/1491011

the Rebbe has many writing on Halach and all aspects of the Torah. notable scholars were utterly amazed how the Rebbe was able to talk for hours on end in the deepest aspects of the torah with no books open in front of him. People would always amazed at the fact that when they approached the rebbe with a particular difficulty in Talmud, halacha, kabbalah etc the Rebbe was able to discuss the matter immediately – without reviewing any books…

get a life!

“He was one of the 17 musmachim of the Rogitzovi Gaon
But he wasn't. They exchanged a letter or two.”

Your knowledge of history is very poor.

“He did not have smicha and everyone who know him called him Mendel.”

Shmarya you are certifiable insane. There was no bigger Torah scholar then the Rebbe in the last generation. This is agreed upon even by the biggest (frume) opponents of Chabad. They biggest litvishe Roshey Yeshiva and scholars studied diligently the Rebbe’s works (albeit many of then not publicly due to ‘politics’. If you were capable of studying scholarly works, you would be amazed by the breath and depth of the rebbe’s talks.

[Shmarya]

You're then insane cult member, sarah.

He did not have smicha. He did not study with the Rogatchover.

You can see the evidence in Friedman and Helilman's book.

[sarah]

You can see the evidence in Friedman and Helilman's book”

Did you watch the video links I sent? So fast?

Just like the professors you mention, you have no interest in facts. You concoct your own reality based on your deep seeded hatred for chabad not on any facts.

Just like Friedman and Helilman you have not talked to or examined any evidence from people who actually know the Rebbe at that time. It doesn’t suite you agenda. (And you will argue that people’s memories are not very clear…. What a joke!)

Are you suggestion that the Rebbe’s knowledge in tora scholarship is no better then the average modern orthodox rabbi? Do you even know what true torah scholarship looks like?

[Loshonhora]

You can see the evidence in Friedman and Helilman's book.

Posted by: Shmarya | June 23, 2011 at 02:35 PM
Why are they the authority of truth? they are no different to Donald Trump's claim Obama was born on foreign soil.
The Rebbe isn't here to produce his certificate if it survived his jouneys. Had Obama not produced his certificate would that mean he didn't have one?
BTW I am not Lubavitch,but I don't have to hate everything about them & their Rebbe.
Not all media periodicals and for that matter history books are the truth, BTW most are not.
You also omit the Beis Yitzchock's famous response on the electrical issue. He was the biggest in his time, just when electrocity came out, most people, especially in Eastern Europe didn't have electrocity yet, nor did they know what it was & how it worked.
I personally knew & spoke to Rabbi Auerbach, & I can tell you never switched on a light on Yomtov. He also used batteries for his electricity [ I think lighting only] at home on Shabboss,to prevent chilull Shabboss of others. He may have been lenient to others but was machmir for himself.