New York State Senate Passes Religious Exemption Amendment And Same Sex Marriage

The amendment and the bill legalizing same sex marriage passed.

Updated 6-25-11 11:00 pm CDT.

Results – and Orthodox and haredi reactions – will be posted after Shabbat

The bill passed not long after Shabbat started. So far I haven't seen any reaction from Agudath Israel of America or other Orthodox groups.

Comments

[anuran]

Good job, New York!

[Adam Neira]

They are cutting their own spiritual throat. When darkness becomes a reason for triumphalism the prevailing culture is in terminal decline.

[WoolSilkCotton]

The religious thugs who fought this got their comeuppance.

I need the Catholic Church and the Orthodox Mafia to decide what's best for me? The best thing would be for them to stay away from my kids and out of the taxpayers' pockets.

Adam, cultures decline when religion gets to decide the law. Find me a country run by theocracy that is flourishing and its people are enjoying basic freedoms.
If you ever succeed in establishing such a place, I'll come visit, but until then, I'm in a New York State of mind.

To paraphrase comedian Jeff Dye,

"I don’t believe in gay marriage because I’m an orthodox Jew, and I believe in the Bible. I believe marriage is between a man and a young woman sold by her parents in exchange for cattle, crops, and village safety."

[seymour]

Posted by: WoolSilkCotton | June 25, 2011 at 07:56 AM

I agree with you.

in the further I can see a few lawsuits concerning religious inheritance issues.

Is the spouse legally the next of kin if lets a a religious parent dies and his son got married in a secular gay wedding and is already dead?

Are the adopted grandchildren considered legality binding grandchildren to a religious grandparent?

and so One can come up with many cases?

In the long one people will adapt just like people in the south adapted to the antidemocratic laws.

To add to your point, what religious society has ever advanced freedom, rights, happiness, scientific, advancement in medicine?

[anuran]

To add to your point, what religious society has ever advanced freedom, rights, happiness, scientific, advancement in medicine?

The Quaker colony in Pennsylvania advanced freedom and human rights. The Second and Third Great Awakenings had profound social and political implications for women's rights, prison reform, a popular reaction to Gilded Age plutocracy, abolitionism, labor activism and more. Almost all of it was on the side of social progress, equality and humanitarianism.

The Reform movement in Judaism had a great deal to do with Jews getting involved in the sciences and social and political work outside strictly Jewish communities.

The reign of the Emperor Ashoka and the (temporary) rise of Buddhism in India were responsible for a great deal of progress in many fields including the arts and sciences. It helped break the tyranny of caste at least for a while in much the same way as Islam and Christianity have done among the dalits.

[WoolSilkCotton]

Seymour, interesting questions, and we will see what happens when such issues eventually arise in the courts.
Gay divorces will also be an interesting legal issue, since under current laws the man usually gets screwed.

Other states that allow gay marriages are doing fine. It might be too soon for all these legal complications to appear yet.

The frumma want all the protections of civil rights laws, but they will not allow any other groups to get their civil rights protected. Typical frumma narrowminded selfishness.

[Adam Neira]

To WSC, Seymour and Anuran,

You have no idea what these people are playing with at the moment. G-d is watching many groups at the moment and testing them. These are momentous times. Little shifts in orientation, stance and action can tilt the scales dramatically.

It just may be as I predicted four years ago that this one question i.e. Do you support same sex marriage ? becomes the clear dividing line between the forces of good and the forces of evil. Today's Parshah was about Korach's rebellion. If you know your Tanach you know what happened to him and his followers for their impudence, conceit and mockery of the divinely mandated command structure. It was also prophesied more than two thousand years ago that a time would arise when very few people knew the difference between right and wrong.

I would have no problems working with all the good monotheists from Judaism, Islam, Christianity, Baha'i, Sikhism etc. who line up on the pro-heterosexual marriage side against the deluded, lost, satanically inclined pro-homosexual marriage crowd. Nice clear battle lines. Wouldn’t it be strange if the vast majority of Persians were on the good side of this debate whilst half of the Americans, Australians etc. were on the other side ? I know how the incense at the opening of Tent of Testimony will flow. It is always reassuring to have a very powerful ally on your side. Gives one great comfort in fighting evil no matter how strong the evil may seem.

How many people really remember the story of Sodom and Gomorrah ?

MOTS (Moral of the Story)...Do not mess with G-d !

[Adam Neira]

Correction...

"would arise when very few people would know the difference between right and wrong."

[WoolSilkCotton]

Nuran, thanks for the interesting historic references.

[seymour]

Posted by: WoolSilkCotton | June 25, 2011 at 08:50 AM

the same with who get the kids or if a spouse makes a compliant of abuse the woman has a major upper hand? Interestingly since they are the same sex they actually might judge it fairly in these cases .

The simple question really is the religious do not have to preform (that is ok) but once done do they have to accept it as a legally married couple

http://www.nytimes.com/2011/06/25/nyregion/gay-marriage-approved-by-new-york-senate.html?hp

New York’s Catholic bishops assailed the vote.

“The passage by the Legislature of a bill to alter radically and forever humanity’s historic understanding of marriage leaves us deeply disappointed and troubled,” the bishops said.

The church changed the meaning of many things that where established for many years, So that is no excuse. Coming from them it is ridiculous

The simply question should be is it right or wrong

[WoolSilkCotton]

"...deeply disappointed and troubled..."

Any new law that does not give the Catholic Church or the Frumma Mafia more power and money causes them to be "deeply disappointed and troubled".

If they could, they would slaughter people in the streets.

In my opinion, if you want your rights protected, and you want certain privileges, such as being able to ask not to work on Shabbos or Yom Tov or to wear a yarmulke without being harassed, you need to allow other people to have rights and privileges, even if you may not be 100% excited and happy about it.
'Live and let live' is a difficult concept for religious people to grasp.

[seymour]

'Live and let live' is a difficult concept for religious people to grasp.

Posted by: WoolSilkCotton | June 25, 2011 at 09:17 AM

this is how the religious say it

'Live and not let live'

[WoolSilkCotton]

What the frumma and the church would love to do if they thought they could get away with it:

http://www.nypost.com/p/news/local/queens/
murder_rap_for_thugs_xhza7pEUzdVLyEdQ2t855J

[Contente]

"In my opinion, if you want your rights protected, and you want certain privileges, such as being able to ask not to work on Shabbos or Yom Tov or to wear a yarmulke without being harassed, you need to allow other people to have rights and privileges, even if you may not be 100% excited and happy about it.
'Live and let live' is a difficult concept for religious people to grasp."

Posted by: WoolSilkCotton | June 25, 2011 at 09:17 AM

Beautifully stated. Today I am happy to be living in NYS, even if I do live in Ramapo.
Contente

[anuran]

seymour,

Additionally, a good case could be made that the rise of Protestantism in Northern Europe was at least partly responsible for the Scientific Revolution. The rise of the sciences, medicine and learning from North Africa to Turkey to Subcontinent was because of a wide-ranging highly interconnected Muslim culture.

Neither of these conditions lasted forever, of course. Today Evangelical Protestantism and Wahabi Islam are two of the most regressive and repressive forces out there.

[adam]

The fact that "religion" gets an exemption and this is "organized religion" is because I'm sure they give a lot of money to these politicians which if they really believe in God they wouldn't use politics to try to stay in power. The fact that organized religion tends to be socialist and against property rights and regressive does not however mean that the bible being against "homosexual intimacy" is therefore wrong just because organized religion is corrupt and agreed should not be given too much power.

Many people who don't go to synogague or church feel this idea is wrong and every time it has been voted on by the people it has been defeated.

The founders were against having a state religion like in Europe where those who belonged to a different denomination were discriminated against. However, they did believe religion has it's place.

[OMG]

Posted by: WoolSilkCotton | June 25, 2011 at 09:17 AM

You have a flair for words, well written.
I always said that I believe that in our children’s lifetime if not ours, the Supreme Court will outlaw any State law prohibiting marriages between same sex couples. The action of NY just brings it closer. Regardless, what the Church or Orthodox are saying their view is destined to fail, when I talk with my children 24, 20 and I see how they react to gays and lesbians, I know that the world is changing for the good, right in front of our eyes. The frumma‘s and the church will be left in the dust behind us.

[ah-pee-chorus]

i celebrate this vote. i'm proud to witness legislation which advances individuals rights rather than curtailing them. isnt that what freedom is all about?

nice comments, anuran,seymour, WSC and OMG.

[seymour]

Posted by: anuran | June 25, 2011 at 08:40 AM

you have a point, since new religious attacks the disenfranchised and then when they grow gives them power in numbers.

However once established or come into in power
all the things you state falls by the wayside and they become intolerant or worse.

I think why that happen is in the beginning the religion is open and evolving. Bit after a few generation things become dogma and that is when the trouble starts

[anuran]

seymour:

Every successful revolution puts on in time the robes of the tyrant it has deposed.
Barbara Tuchman

[seymour]

I do not understand why this is such a major issue for the religious.

there are many things that we allow or encourage in today society that is forbidden. in the torah. And how does is effect them?
what, one day they will forget they are heterosexual and they need someone to tell them to be attracted to the opposite sex.

Question, did not the Christens forsake the old testament and its rules. therefore why is this a big issue?

And of course why don't they and the frum Jews, make a big issue of clergy molesting children.
And if the child is of age (past puberty) a sexual being why don't they consider that a homosexual act and deal with them like they deal with homosexual and their rights

[WoolSilkCotton]

OMG, "...I know that the world is changing for the good, right in front of our eyes. The frumma‘s and the church will be left in the dust behind us..."

I have also noticed how this has come about over my 55 years on the planet. Tolerance and anti-prejudice was a strong part of my kids' public school curriculum. (They are also in their 20's). In my day, that was unheard of. Malicious antisemitic taunts were common in my public high school. Today such a thing at our local school would be newsworthy.

Perhaps in previous eras, as Nuran pointed out, organized religion, with capable leadership, was able to harness the public energy towards positive accomplishments, at a time before democracy evolved.
Nowadays we do have the good from that, such as the many Catholic/Christian based universities, hospitals and benevolent societies, and likewise from Jews.
When the hard-core elements of those religions then try to muscle in and take power, it is important for the secular government to let them know who is still in charge.

Power and money-hungry religions have been seriously displaced from their base by gays, and that notice has been issued by politicians.
Some NY/NJ politicians are noticing that when you get in bed with frumma, you might wake up with a federal indictment and find yourself in handcuffs.

[OMG]

Posted by: WoolSilkCotton | June 25, 2011 at 01:55 PM

It is true as anuran quoted Barbara Tuchman, as a new religion replaces the old and weary one they become the oppressors. There is a social revolution without the upheaval of the 60’s; I see young man and woman dating interracially without anybody even raising an eyebrow, I see the Latino community expending at an rate not seen since the Europeans came to the US in the 19th and 20th century, and they are starting to flex their political muscle. Finally, the LGBT community, are becoming more mainstream than the previous generations, remember this, as the super wealthily flexes its muscles, the middle class will fight back the young generation will not go down without a fight. That is why they watch Jon Stewart and indentify with his view.

[BeenThereDoneThat]

If I understand it correctly, for a just society, all the non-Jews need to follow, is the 7 laws of Noach.

And same-sex marriage does not break any of these rules, so, I see no problems here.

Moschiach will still be coming... (it all depends on the Jews now to be nice to each other- Which will not happen as long as there is the concept of ortha-doxa in religious doctrine, which means "my way, or the highway" in short) which means that Moshiach will really not be coming
for a very very long time.( I means the real one, not just some trumped
up dead rabbi (why are they all dead rabbis??? I should have just as much of a chance))

Ok, going to take my pills now.

[Dave]

I am going to make a few comments, and after that I don't care if you all kick me off this site:
1. the issue of gay marriage has NOTHING to do with child molestation. All Jews (or all people) in their right mind must condemn child molestation. I am saying this because it is true that many Orthodox rabbonim have perverted justice to protect child molestors. This is an unconscionable crime and both molestors and enablers must be brought to justice.
Therefore, please understand- I am unequivocally in favour of all rabbis/ social workers/ child welfare workers reporting child molestors immediately without fail to the police. This has nothing to do with the concept of "moser".
2. Having said that, support for gay marriage and accepting homosexual behaviour as being a valid lifestyle for Jews is a perversion of Jewish law/ halacha and the Torah according to any traditional Jewish group whether Samaritans, Karaites, Orthodox Jews and non-U.S. Conservative Jews.
Indeed, likely as recently as 1945 it would have even been considered a perversion of Torah law even by the Reform movement.
Some of us seem to have forgotten that some Torah laws are defacto more important than other Torah laws.
As proof of this, there was a lecture given in Israel a few months ago by Rav Shlomo Arush (or Shalom Arush) and Rav Amnon Yitzhak in which they stated that a person who has committed one of the following sins:
a). adultery
or b) homosexual behaviour
has NULLIFIED the benefits of other mitzvot they may have done.
3. I have stated on this blog a number of times that part of the reason for homosexual behaviour becoming more acceptable by this society is that some of us heterosexuals have sinned ourselves by committing disgusting and immoral acts such as fellatio and anal sex, both within the context of heterosexual relationships. Therefore the homosexuals use this as an argument, in effect, "why can't we do those behaviours, we're only doing what you do".
4. Any doctor will tell you that anal sex will definitely rupture protective tissue in the rectal area. This is a simple fact of biology.
5. As far as the debate on homosexuality goes, this blog has become an echo chamber. Anyone who does not unequivocally support the right of gays to their immoral behaviour is branded a fascist, a bigot, an idiot etc. If you have decided that pro-homosexuality is the only acceptable opinion to have on this blog, why even bring it up? Since you certainly do not want a debate on this subject. You cannot force me to agree with you on this topic.
4. On a separate topic, I have repeatedly stated that there is a very simple way (not an easy way, but a simple way) to counter assimilation and also to counter Haredi encroachment is to promote Judaism throughout the world, especially in the 3rd world and among minority groups in the third world. However my comments have been absolutely ignored, and the usual group goes on bemoaning assimilation and Haredi encroachment.
5. Also many posters on this blog have rightly bemoaned the immoral behaviour of many Haredis and their triumphalist aggression on other Orthodox Jews and on non-Orthodox Jews. I have suggested many times that we should promote Karaism and Modern Orthodoxy as a counter to Haredism. However once more, I am totally ignored.

6. I am not a Reform Jew who prays in a Modern Orthodox synagogue. I am a traditional, but non-Orthodox Jew who prays in a Modern Orthodox synagogue.
There is a difference.

7. Many posters on this blog use the admitted unconscionable behaviour of many Haredim to then disparage most/ all Jewish beliefs and practices and disparage the Torah and attack G-d. I am certain that G-d is fully able to defend G-d's self, but such an attitude is absolutely counter productive and a waste of time. You might as well rage against the waves of the sea, for all the good it will do you.
Goodbye. After reading this blog, you can forget about my existence and get back to promoting homosexual behaviour, Judaism-bashing and atheist promotion.
The entire experience of interacting with posters on this blog, has led me to become more observant. For that I sincerely thank you all.

[WoolSilkCotton]

++Any doctor will tell you that anal sex will definitely rupture protective tissue in the rectal area. This is a simple fact of biology.++

Dave, have you ever worked in an Operating Room or in Labor & Delivery? Obviously not.
You should see what instruments and devices are put in the anus during certain operations on the rectosigmoid area, and what needs to be done when a woman has a 4th degree perineal laceration after a difficult birth.

I really don't know where you came up with that #4 statement. It certainly isn't from "any doctor", as you claim.

[OMG]

Posted by: Dave | June 25, 2011 at 10:04 PM

“Any doctor will tell you that anal sex will definitely rupture protective tissue in the rectal area. This is a simple fact of biology.” I goggled to see if your claim is true, as usual not even one source showed up.

Finally, nobody is going to bemoan that you are gone, and the reason why you were ignored because you never brought to table something which makes sense.

[Office of the Chief Rabbi]

First off, we here in the Office of the Chief Rabbi are delighted that the NY State Legislature, once branded the most disfunctional state legislature in the nation, has shown moral and political courage by extending a legal benefit.

The State Senate gave a monodigital salute to the Roman Catholic hierarchy, legions of haredim, and tons of evangelical flat earthers.

A special yasher koiach to the 3 Repugnicans who showed courage above and beyond what we normally expect from them.

Secondly, it's amazing how much high level commentary appeared here on Shabbat! Thanks to all you Sabbath-desecrators who took the time to post, while the trogs were all at kiddush club.

Third: those of you who feel threatened by the extension to gays and lesbians of the right to marry: it's a CIVIL thing. If we Jews want the right to do things others don't necessarily approve of (e.g. circumcise our infants, shecht our meat) we have to let others who are outside our belief systems act as they see fit. Why does it matter to you who they shtup, or love?

Fourth: We here in the Office of the Chief Rabbi will be pleased to officiate under the huppah -for our usual fee, of course -for the freilach [gays and lesbians] who will be coming to NYS to get married. After all, MOnsey is so much better for a destination wedding than say, Provincetown. And Williamsburg is so hip these days.

Finally, thanks, Shmarya, for the R' Steven Greenberg essay, and for the R' Sharon Kleinbaum clip. (I thought she should have kept her hands to herself).

שבוע טוב

[WoolSilkCotton]

Dave, oral and anal sex has been done by hetero- and homosexuals since ancient times.

I don't know how you came to the conclusion you did for #3.

Your point #2 sounds a bit like Ahmedinejad claiming that there are no gays in Iran.
The clergy of every religion are against a lot of things, and bible-thumping to justify gay bashing is standard operating procedure among the orthodox of all religions.
The Torah also prescribes the death penalty for a child that eats and drinks too much, or if you pick up sticks on Shabbos. Why not enforce those laws, too?

[Shmarya]

Posted by: Dave | June 25, 2011 at 10:04 PM

As I have pointed out to you many times, Dave, you cherry pick the commandments you choose to follow, and you cherry pick the commandments you demand others follow.

For you to base your opposition to homosexuality on a text that you yourself do not follow again shows that what you are is a homophobe – and in your case, a homophobe with deep psychological problems.

People don't listen to you, Dave, because of that, and because you don't make any logical sense.

[WoolSilkCotton]

OCR, you are indeed a Gadol, and worthy of the title of Chief Rabbi.

Your offer to officiate at gay marriages reminds me of the Simpsons episode where Homer becomes an 'e-piscopalian' minister via an on line ministry when sees the opportunity to perform gay marriages for those eager to pay his fee for the service.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/There's_Something_About_Marrying

[Shmarya]

Dave, oral and anal sex has been done by hetero- and homosexuals since ancient times.

WSC,

Even more than that, halakha in most interpretations does not prohibit anal sex between a husband and wife.

Dave is serious damaged psychologically, it seems.

[ah-pee-chorus]

dave, in addition to the earlier commenters who have shown why so much of what you wrote is factually incorrect, your points are irrelevant to this vote.
lets assume your points are true. SO DONT BE GAY !! this legislation isnt about forcing you or anyone else to engage in homosexuality. the issue is whether those people who dont use the bible as their rulebook and instead wish to marry partners of the same sex should be given the same legal status as heteros. and since i'm sure youre aware that this vote was for new york law, and not jewish law, theres no reason for you or any other religious person or group to oppose it.

[SkepticalYid]

Nor does halacha prohibit fellatio between a husband and wife. For that matter.

@Shmarya-- you have a good point re: Dave. Who in their right mind advocates for both Karaism AND Modern Orthodoxy. It makes no sense.

[Bubba Metzia]

heterosexuals have sinned ourselves by committing disgusting and immoral acts

Posted by: Dave | June 25, 2011 at 10:04 PM

I've never heard that viewpoint within Judaism before. Are you a Gerer? The mainstream opinion is that within marriage pretty much everything is allowed except for having relations during niddah. If you want a source from the Gemara on this look at Nedarim 20b.

"A woman once came before Rab and complained. 'Rabbi! I set a table before my husband, but he overturned it.' Rab replied; Wherein does it differ from a fish?"

[Shmarya]

The mainstream opinion is that within marriage pretty much everything is allowed except for having relations during niddah. If you want a source from the Gemara on this look at Nedarim 20b.

"A woman once came before Rab and complained. 'Rabbi! I set a table before my husband, but he overturned it.' Rab replied; Wherein does it differ from a fish?"

Posted by: Bubba Metzia | June 25, 2011 at 11:17 PM

Look at the commentaries there.

That specific pasuk is permitting anal sex between husband and wife.

[Bubba Metzia]

Yes, that is what I'm saying. But Dave seems to be under the impression that that isn't allowed.

[seymour]

Dave

4. Any doctor will tell you that anal sex will definitely rupture protective tissue in the rectal area. This is a simple fact of biology.

therefore we should ban smoking ans say it is against the Torah

[itchiemayer]

I find the idea of anal sex to be gross, but that is just my opinion. I certainly don't think it is halachically permissable.
I do know of one case where a BT couple received a heter for cunnilingus as I guess the Mrs. didn't want to give it up.
I wonder how Rabba Sara Hurwitz would rule if a man would ask her that question....

[Shmarya]

I certainly don't think it is halachically permissable.

It is according to many non-hasidic poskim, as is fellatio, cunnilingus, etc.

Note the citation from the Gemara a few comments above yours.

[Alex]

Our feckless and craven politicians have once again chosen death over life for the sake of political expediency.

[Friar Yid]

I would have no problems working with all the good monotheists from Judaism, Islam, Christianity, Baha'i, Sikhism etc. who line up on the pro-heterosexual marriage side against the deluded, lost, satanically inclined pro-homosexual marriage crowd.

Sorry, you invoked Satan, you lose.

[Adam Neira]

To Friar Yid,

What the hell, excuse the pun, are you talking about ? I'm not invoking the adversary. You should learn some more English if it is not your first language.

[Aleksandr Sigalov]

Shmaryah,

I have to agree with Dave. I think you really screwed this one up.

Unless you don't care about your credibility at all, I'd say that you really need to reconsider what you are doing.

[Abracadabra]

I'm glad New York State finally extended civil rights to gays and lesbians who want to get civil marriages in NYS.

I'm curious as to what Religious Exemptions the Amendment contains. Probably exemptions for anyone religious to act as homophobically as they wish.

Well, at least there was some major progress. Hopefully the rest of the blue states will follow NYS. Forget about the Bible Belt states though, they're still stoning and lynching gays.

[Jeff]

WSC, as much as I'd like to agree with your prognosis of a more tolerant society, I'm afraid I can't. I don't think we're going in that direction at all. Rather, I see a conservative, Christofascist hegemony (aided and abetted by its Orthodox and secular conservative Jewish lapdogs, to their shame) constantly increasing in power and influence. They've already decimated our educational system and made us the laughing stock of the developed world. Similarly, fundamentalist Muslim factions are in the process of taking over (or have already done so) most of the Middle Eastern countries, and, of course, the stranglehold Haredim have over the Israeli government is well known to the regular participants on this blog.

The only exception to this phenomenon would appear to be Western Europe, and even it's beginning to have serious problems as its Muslim immigrants become increasingly radicalized.

As much as I'm in favor of same-gender marriage, I see these court and ballot decisions as small, temporary victories. We may win individual battles, but I'm convinced we'll lose the war.

As I've said repeatedly, I have no hope left for the future. Humanity is a terminal species. We're screwed, and frankly, we deserve to be.

[seymour]

if two men can marry and two woman can marry since of course they are adults and should have evry right

why can't a person have more they one spouse for the exact same reasons

[Tam]

I asked my Israeli friend, a brilliant and sharp witted individual, to sum-up what's inherently wrong with homosexuals. He paraphrased, stating as follows, "what's between your feet is in their nostrils, now you know the rest of the story".

[seymour]

I asked my Israeli friend, a brilliant and sharp witted individual, to sum-up what's inherently wrong with homosexuals. He paraphrased, stating as follows, "what's between your feet is in their nostrils, now you know the rest of the story".

Posted by: Tam | June 26, 2011 at 08:51 AM

the same can be said of oral sex

[Jeff]

a brilliant and sharp witted individual

He certainly didn't prove it with that remark.

[WoolSilkCotton]

If an anonymous Israeli friend says so, that's good enough for me.

[WoolSilkCotton]

Jeff, I share your concerns about the rise of religious fundamentalism, and their declared war on education, in many parts of the world as well as the USA.

The low point, in my opinion, was during the 2008 presidential debate when John McCain mocked the projector purchased by the Adler Planetarium.

Nevertheless, anti-education Republicans are not routinely winning elections or reelections. The republican candidates for 2012 are a joke, and should be required to show their high school and college transcripts.

The majority of Americans are still reasonable moderate people who shun religious fanaticism in all its forms. The increased birth rate among the ignorant and the uber-religious doesn't concern me that much.
Politicians are learning that pandering to religious fanatics is becoming counterproductive, and their votes may not be worth the price.

[WoolSilkCotton]

Tam, you should work in a Labor & Delivery section of a hospital, or the hospital's GYN clinic, and see what comes out of where in your heterosexual world. Enjoy.

[george]

WoolSilkCotton

So six persons with no apparent connection to anything Jewish is relevant because you assert that is what "he frumma and the church would love to do"? Did you include "mosque" when you used the word "church"?

[WoolSilkCotton]

George, you know how words can lead to actions.

The nonstop gay bashing from frumma of all kinds, and yeah, including your fellow uber-religionists at the church and at the mosque, can lead to violence.

Violent actions erupting after inflammatory words are the stock-in-trade of all frumma, whether frum Christian,frum Jew, or frum Moslem. You've never noticed?

Violence in the name of 'God Sez So' has resulted in more bloodshed over the centuries than any other reason.

[Office of the Chief Rabbi]

WSC
Thanks for your confidence. Please note that I will not charge gay couples more than I charge straight couples, although the prospect of two bridezillas in a single event (even if they're both men) probably could call for a higher honorarium.

[itchiemayer]

I actually think that at this point in time, the majority of Americans are not ok with the sanctioning of gay marriage. Nonetheless, it is only a matter of time before it becomes sanctioned throught the country. I do believe it is immoral and bad for society, but is inevitable so I have chosen to pick other battles.
By the way, I fail to see how liberal, progressive policies have done much for us or Europe. All of your uber-tolerance is going to get all of us killed.
wsc - come on, what are you talking about inflammatory words as if they only come from one side. Our President has been tight with many a socialist that define "inflammatory", Huma Abedin Wiener has a mother and brother in the muslim brotherhood, a group I find rather inflammatory, but like everything else, it is always those damned right-wingers.
Your uber-tolerance for the hatred, violence, and mob mentality on the left will bring this country down.

[OMG]

Posted by: Jeff | June 26, 2011 at 06:19 AM

You are right only to a point, when a candle extinguishes the last second the flame shines bright and strong. The same is with human life a few seconds before a person dies, he will show signs of recovery to an amazing degree, why I am not sure maybe WSC could explain to us. Nevertheless, the same I see with the far right. It is true that if you look at the 2010 Congressional and State election results, you would feel like all is lost. However, I look at the next generation this is what I see. One, grade school kids have multi racial friends, they sleep over in each other houses, walk home together from school, in school itself there are no same race groups as it was in the 20th century were the only multi racial camaraderie was on sports teams, but now that all changed. Two, high school, currently the kids are dating multi racial, I live one mile from a 5000 plus kids high school, I watch in amassment how intergraded the kids are. Three, in collage I hear from my children it seems that as the finish high school they same views overtook the colleges. No need for protests à la the 60’s; it is part of who they are.

The last election was a deviation for the following reasons. One, the backlash that (African American) President Obama won, every racist under every rock came out in droves to vote against the President. Two, senior citizens were totally bamboozled with the health care laws, believing the Republican propaganda about the death panels, and the loss of Medicare. No need to go far my mother and father in law voted for the first time in their life for a Republican Allen West who won. Now they know that they made a mistake, which would affect them personally, if the Republicans do not want to raise the debt limit. Four, Yong People do not vote in a of year election. For all the reasons I mentioned above, I believe the overall demographics will help the younger generations to master their own view of the world. That said it does not mean that we just should sit back and wait for the older generation to expire and let nature bring back the country to the progressive side. We need to work hard and with dedication to make changes that are good for the whole society, not just the few.

[george]

WoolSilkCotton

All I know about "the church and at the mosque" is what is in the news, but I can tell everyone from first-hand experience that it is a non-topic in my synagogue.

But I did get a somewhat rude awakening several decads ago. The rule for university was that tuition fees (or arrangements) had to be paid up front, including student-union dues, usually in one lump indistinguishable sum.

Unknown to me, and apparently to the vast majority of students, hidden in the student-union dues was a tacked-on portion ear-marked for a certain homosexual lobbying group.

That was actually illegal. They skirted the law by (nominally) allowing the student to claim back the tacked-on portion. I knew nothing of this during my time there (I, as were most serious students, much too busy to investigate the details of where I fees went), but shortly after I graduated and started my first full-time job, an article in a paper brought this to my notice.

As it happened, a non-Jewish secular fellow worker at the office was also a recent graduate of the same university (different course completely and I did not know him during my years at the university) and I asked him if he had known about this.

Well, he tells me that he was the type who reads everything in the student paper, and in some obscure spot it was advertised that to obtain a refund of the tacked-on fee one had to show up in person with proper credentials on a certain Friday afternoon at a certain location where (what a co-incidence) there happened to be a homosexual rally taking place.

He shows up for his refund. The person behind the desk gives him an argument, such as: "What better use do you have for the money". He retorts with something like: "Donating it to a woman's shelter."

So far what he told me.

So imagine if, instead of the homosexual lobbying group, it was, say, Chabad? And instead of Friday afternoon at a homosexual rally, it was Christmas Eve at a Chabad rally for the Messiah. Why should anyone think any differently about those homosexuals than certain posters would have thought about Chabad? But strangely I (usually) tend just not to think about homosexuals, I suppose I am too easy going. But this non-Jewish secular fellow I wrote about was quite obviously livid in his demeanor over being cheated.

[itchiemayer]

omg - I am a conservative that sees absolutely nothing wrong with interracial dating, so it clearly isn't a black and white issue. You assume as though interracial couples signifies a long term shift to the left in this country. I don't think that is an automatic whatsoever. There are an increasing number of black conservatives coming out of the woodwork. In fact, if you want to talk about a closet group of people, black conservatives qualify. They get riduculed by their family and friends for swimming against the tide. The brainwashing that is going on at the universities is also helping to bring down this great country. What so many of you celebrate as being progressive, I bemoan the gross naivete of it all.

[WoolSilkCotton]

George, some of the student activity fee also supports Hillel and Chabad on campus. Do you want nonJewish students to opt out of that money?

Some of the money from student activity fees went to the gay group at your school, but some of the activity fee money benefitted Jewish campus groups, whether you care to admit it or not.

I was an officer in the Jewish Student Union of my college (in NJ) in the 1970's. The Dean treated us like we were a nuisance. Today? That same group is on the A-List of any official campus function.

The campus gay group of that time was also treated like crap at our school.

Protections for one 'minority' group help other groups too, including the Jews. Nobody says you need to embrace gays. Just live and let live. Their fight helps our fight, too.

[Deremes]

WoolSilkCotton: While your at the frumma fest you forgot to mention some other items where the frumma are at fault:

Hospitals full of sick people is the frummas fault

The economy in the tanks,again the frummas fault.

Mubarak was kicked out,the frummas fault

Chavez is sick,the frummas fault.

Listen up you hatemonger this is the great USA and in case you didn't know how laws are passed,ill tell you.

Laws are passed by elected officials.Many times they will look at how their constituents will react on how they voted. The constituents have every legal right to ask their representative to vote on how they feel so. And they can also tell them that if they wont vote as they asked they will not vote for him/her again.

If a community wants their representative to vote for banning circumcision,its their right. For legalizing drugs or against legalizing drugs,for heath care or against anything and everything they have a right to ask.

Same goes with the man on man sex. Oops its called gay rights/marriage.

The Orthodox community has every right to ask their representative to vote against gay marriage.Its a chilul hashem that non-Jewish groups are against it and frum Jews are electing officials who are pro.
Don't like it this way,move under the Taliban where you have a different set of rules.

BTW its an old debate among frum Orthodox rabbonim going back 20-30 years if they should really care about the whole gay thing they themselves didn't really know how to handle it.

And BTW make sure to go to the gay pride parade.

On as side note,personally i feel that liberals are better for Jews then conservatives.

And remember there is no such a thing in the Torah as gay rights. A Jew who does the great sin of Mishkav Zachar lives in sin. There is no heter in the world to permit to do it. So if you are an orthodox male and cant resist the urge of having sex with another male,you are doing one of the greatest sin and feel guilty about it. You should still follow the Torah but don't go around telling the world that you are proud of having sex with another man. And don't expect us to say that you not doing anything wrong and be proud,because it is a disgusting act to do.

[george]

The student-union dues are distributed according to formula. This was an over-the-top extra tariff, ear-marked. That is why they had to, at least nominally, allow a refund. I am not even sure that the group they gave it to was officially registered, which would be another reason it was illegal.

[george]

WoolSilkCotton

In addition, seeing as the university bursar was collecting and enforcing the collection (but not the refund!) of the money in the first place, knowing full well what it was, seems to put the university's treatment of the homosexual community into a completely different category than your experience as a Jew.

[Jeff]

"The majority of Americans are still reasonable moderate people who shun religious fanaticism in all its forms. The increased birth rate among the ignorant and the uber-religious doesn't concern me that much. Politicians are learning that pandering to religious fanatics is becoming counterproductive, and their votes may not be worth the price."

I certainly hope you're right. I don't think you are.

[WoolSilkCotton]

The important thing is that the frumma lost on the gay marriage issue.
Politicians will no longer do everything the frumma say.

Future frumma will have less money, since few of them work anymore, and the 'old money' of the past generation is being depleted.

Politicians want money and votes. Gays have both; frumma won't.

[WoolSilkCotton]

Deremes, if a referendum was held in NY, asking the question:

"Should the hasidic Jews be investigated for welfare fraud and other illegal financial activity?"

How do you think most NY city and state voters would vote? Are you willing to take that chance?

Be careful what you wish for with the 'majority'. Politicians need to do what they think is overall best for society and everyone in the long run, including those in the minority, the influence of their current constituents notwithstanding.

Read Profiles in Courage by President John Kennedy (or Ted Sorensen, depending who you believe...).

[Yis]

Hey Shmarya, in an earlier post you alluded to the halachic prohibition on homosexuality possibly only applying to Jews. I have looked into commentaries on the Sheva Mitzvot B'Nei Noach, and I have only found commentaries indicating that male homosexuality is prohibited under the category of sexual sins. Is your view based on (1) the idea that those commentators who don't list homosexuality as prohibited are implicitly indicating it is allowed; or (2) actual Jewish sources explicitly saying that male homosexuality is not prohibited among non-Jews? If it's (1), are there any prominent Orthodox rabbis, writers, or spokespersons who share your view? If it's (2), what are the sources? Thanks!

[Jeff]

"You are right only to a point, when a candle extinguishes the last second the flame shines bright and strong. The same is with human life a few seconds before a person dies, he will show signs of recovery to an amazing degree, why I am not sure maybe WSC could explain to us."

William Irwin Thompson, who's a sort of freelance intellectual, wrote a book entitled Coming Into Being, in which he said that whenever an ideology is about to exit the stage of history, it makes a last desperate bid to hold on. Again, I'd like to believe it's true; I'm afraid it's wishful thinking.

[Deremes]

WSC,
We do live in a sick perverted world.
There are a groups of people called Jews,Irish,Blacks and all have equal rights as human beings. Although at one time blacks were slaves and discriminated and it seemed ok there were legit reasons to treat them as human beings.
To say that a group of people which is based on a sex act they prefer is the same as Jews,blacks,Irish,Latinos is an insult to human kind.
So come in few years every person with some perversion will form groups and ask for their rights. And you call this equal rights?
Its sick out there and getting sicker

[WoolSilkCotton]

Deremes, every gay person will tell you it is not a preference, it is the way they are.
Everywhere I have worked or gone to school or lived, there is the same percentage of gay people.
Gays have always been a percentage of every population. You do not have to like them or agree with them. Just let them live in peace and have the same rights as other people.

Civil marriage is not religious marriage. It is no different than getting a drivers license, or a building permit. I am sure you would not get married with just a civil ceremony, right? Obviously you do not consider any civil marriage to be valid in the eyes of God, because you insist on religious marriage. Same with divorce- you would have a Get, and not just a civil divorce.

No religious clergy are being forced to perform gay marriages.

Hasidic Jews don't always get a civil marriage, so that the woman is technically 'single' in the eyes of the law, and she can get welfare and WIC as a single mother. So why are the frumma so concerned with the importance of civil marriage?

"...a group of people which is based on a sex act they prefer..."

The Jews are based on a religion they prefer. You can become a Jew, and you can become a different religion, it is a matter of your preference, right?

[OMG]

Posted by: Deremes | June 26, 2011 at 01:32 PM

The real question should be what is a Jew, not, who is a Jew, is being Jewish a nationality, or religion. if you argue that Judaism is only a religion, because any Irish, black or middle eastern, could be a Jew, than your point that ,”Irish, Blacks and all have equal rights as human beings” is mute, because, human rights is based on nationality and Judaism is religious based. What you fail to understand, that our exceptionalism, is based on the following traits, egalitarianism, individualism, populism and laissez-faire. We do not want the government to tell a segment of our citizens they cannot pursy happiness. To bring it to full circle, if gays should marry, is not part of your concern, I agree if gays are looking to the church or Rabbi or Imam for approval and acceptance, even though I agree with their desire, in my view, you have a right to raise your voice in opposition, because you are part of that group. However, when it comes to state rights, it is counterintuitive to argue against others pursuit of happiness. Please do not equate perversion i.e. zoosexuality with gay sex, regardless what you claim, the overwhelming population, will not equate them.

[OMG]

Posted by: Jeff | June 26, 2011 at 01:24 PM

I guess that in any dark clouds on the horizon I see a positive aspect.

[anuran]

Adam, we've already established that you're intellectually dishonest, delusional and a chiroptera scat wingnut. But now you're just being stupid.

satanically inclined pro-homosexual marriage crowd

....

What the hell, excuse the pun, are you talking about ? I'm not invoking the adversary

[anuran]

seymour writes:

why can't a person have more they one spouse for the exact same reasons

I got no problem with it as long as all previous spouses are aware and give notarized, informed consent to the alteration of the terms of their contract.

[Deremes]

Posted by: WoolSilkCotton | June 26, 2011 at 02:34 PM

Of course they will say they were born that way and i suppose there are studies that it is so.
Some people are just born with a sex addiction. Bill Clinton cant get his hands of any woman he lays an eye. Was he born that way? he just cant resist the sex. Some males just have a thing for another male. In a political correct world its called "they were born that way" It should rather be called in political corrupt world.
Again,no matter how you will put it,its all about sex and again sex nothing more nothing less lets tell it like it is.
I care more about the Orthodox gays who want it that the Orthodox community should embrace them,which is disgusting even to ask.
Your comparison of a sex group with a religion shows how much respect you have for any kind of Judaism even for reform.
Your obsession with the frum community beats the obsession of a guy who likes to be sht... by another guy.

[ah-pee-chorus]

jeff-

i'm far more optimistic. since i think we agree that dogmatism, and religion in particular are detrimental to the continuity , success, and overall happiness of the human race, there are many positive developments, though they take time to develop. the most important such development is the ubiquity of information. dogma thrives on ignorance, and between cellphones, the internet in general, blogs, as well as the social networking sites, the spread of information is almost impossible to stop. and that trend is heading in the right direction.
in parts of europe, especially scandinavia, huge segments of the people are atheists and agnostics. some studies have shown that within a few generations entire countries will be dominated by atheists, including the czech republic. even here in america the numbers of religiously unaffiliated is growing rapidly.
as an example, the books by dawkins, hitchens and harris sold millions of copies, whereas just 20 years ago it would have been dangerous and difficult to publish such heresy.
i'm doing my part in teaching my kids to reject all dogma , think critically and rationally, and demand evidence for all stances, be they theological, sociological, etc...

[Abracadabra]

Your obsession with the frum community beats the obsession of a guy who likes to be sht... by another guy.

Deremes - WSC gave you logical answers, and you throw back insults. Shows how much logic you use in your thinking.

YOUR obsession with needing to bend over backwards to prove the way the rabbis currently interpret Torah was THE only right way, beats the obsession of anyone on this website who sees things differently. The difference between us is that we live our lives with the ability to question what rabbis and other human beings claim to be the ONLY truth. You and your fellow sheep are too afraid to question what they are feeding you as "truth".

[WoolSilkCotton]

Seymour, sometimes even one wife is too much! :)

[WoolSilkCotton]

A kid wearing a yarmulke just caught Teixeira's home run in the 8th inning of the Yankee game! His dad was sitting next to him.

[Deremes]

Abracadabra June 26, 2011 at 04:08 PM

No.
I gave wsc logical answers and he throw back about hassidm with welfare.

I have no clue what you are saying.
The point is that the Torah says Ves Zachar Lo Sishkav Mishkevei Ishah To'evah Ho.There is no such a thing that maybe in this case its allowed and in this case its not allowed. There is no disagreement on what it means. A man is not allowed to have sex with another man,case closed.
Why in the world you would need to say that the Torah says differently,i have no clue. But in a way its good because it shows that you feel guilty each time you do this gross act. I don't really mean you,because i don't know if you are gay or if you are religious.

[Jeff]

A kid wearing a yarmulke just caught Teixeira's home run in the 8th inning of the Yankee game! His dad was sitting next to him.

Posted by: WoolSilkCotton | June 26, 2011 at 04:21 PM

Obviously Modern Orthodox, therefore not really frum!

[Jeff]

the most important such development is the ubiquity of information. dogma thrives on ignorance, and between cellphones, the internet in general, blogs, as well as the social networking sites, the spread of information is almost impossible to stop. and that trend is heading in the right direction

Posted by: ah-pee-chorus | June 26, 2011 at 03:44 PM

I suppose. The result you want isn't what I perceive to be happening in the world, though.

I hope you guys are right. It certainly isn't as though I want you to be wrong.

[Adam Neira]

There are a lot of people out there who are very disturbed by this decision. They are trying to process what is going on. They are feeling wrong-footed and a little off balance. They resent the no class celebrations of the pro-gay crowd but are just sitting things out. They should gain comfort from the fact that the universe really does turn around the righteous. They just need to dig in, stick to their spiritual guns and keep their faith. The vicious tides of evil continue to wash onto the shore but eventually the ocean will be calmed

[WoolSilkCotton]

Jeff, probably MO because father and son were wearing colored shirts, but it was a large black velvet-looking yarmulke, and the same attire by his dad!

[ah-pee-chorus]

The vicious tides of evil continue to wash onto the shore but eventually the ocean will be calmed

Posted by: Adam Neira

by YOU , i suppose, right? o' messiah?

[Jeff]

Jeff, probably MO because father and son were wearing colored shirts, but it was a large black velvet-looking yarmulke, and the same attire by his dad!

Posted by: WoolSilkCotton | June 26, 2011 at 05:12 PM

Oh, colored shirts? Kefirah!

[Jeff]

by YOU , i suppose, right? o' messiah?

Posted by: ah-pee-chorus | June 26, 2011 at 05:17 PM

Shmarya, do you remember our conversation of a few weeks ago, in which I told you it wasn't just me, that he's been making others uncomfortable as well?

[Gevezener Chusid]

Al todin es chavercha ad she tegiya limkomo

Do not judge your fellow until you have benn in his place.

[ah-pee-chorus]

jeff=

he doesnt make me uncomfortable but i'd prefer he sign his posts as "the messiah" since he admitted in an earlier post that he believes he is.

[Adam Neira]

Moshiach isn't Moshiach till he builds the Third Temple, ushers in an age of world peace, reinstitutes the Sanhedrin, has a male heir, bans all late night television and a few other things. I know how all these things can be achieved but we are in the second decade of the 2050 plan.

[anuran]

ah-pee-chorus: He's already said he's a prophet. Let's check his "prophecies". If any one of them is even the slightest bit wrong, give him the traditional penalty for false prophets.

Sorry. Back up. Can't do it. He's clearly insane. We're not supposed to execute crazy people.

[OMG]

Posted by: itchiemayer | June 26, 2011 at 12:07 PM

Welcome to club, and that is exactly my point, that even conservative are moving on interracial marriage, that is a start, all moves are incremental, slowly but surely it expends to other fields. Nevertheless, your dreams that African Americans are moving in droves to the Republican view is nothing more than a dream. The fact is they will not pick up more than ten percent of the African Americans vote. Secondly Just last week Karl Rove said that to win in 2012 the Republicans will need to pickup or suppress an additional ten percent of the African Americans vote, and guess what, if they expect new African Americans Republican voters than why do they need to talk about suppression. Bottom line, time will tell who is right and who is wrong. I hope you and I are around on this blog twenty years from now, and we will look back and see who was right and who was wrong.

[OMG]

Deremes
I was looking forward to your response to my 3:00 PM post; I guess you do not have any explanations.

[OMG]

Posted by: Eliyohu | June 26, 2011 at 08:52 PM

You are wrong, and Shmarya explained it perfectly clear why there is more molester in the orthodox community, but to no avail. Therefore, I decided to take a plunge, and use simple math so a kid from grade school will be able to grasp the answer.

Look at it this way, for the purpose of this discussion we will assume that at a certain point all communities, Orthodox Jews, other religious groups, or none religious groups have the same amount of molesters in their midst. For easy math we will use the hypothetical number, for each one thousand people you have twenty molesters very low number that is only two percent. Therefore, the first factor is equal in all communities.

Now let us look at the second factor, it is known that if someone is a molester and is not caught he will molest others, to make it easy let’s say that for each year the molester is not caught he will molest ten new victims. Subsequently if you have a nineteen-year-old person who is not reported to the police, twenty years later when he is forty-nine he will have molested two hundred new victims, but in the communities who do report, they will not have these two hundred new victims per molester that is eight hundred victims.

At this instant let us look at the third factor and this is the most important factor. If you go back to the original groups, we used a two percent molester rate. However, if someone was molested as a kid, the kid will turn into a molester at a far greater rate than the original study group. Some studies suggest that there is a tenfold increase in the rate so from the 800 victims; instead of 16 new molester you will have 160 new molester. Now just think about the next twenty years instead of having just the original four molesters and maybe one or two more molester, taken in consideration the natural expansion of the group, you will have 160 molesters and the rate will exponentially increase to a rate that the whole community will be molesters. Hope this help you.

[ah-pee-chorus]

OMG -

great analysis. you could even add one more factor to the equation. if we assume the "inclination" to molest is 2% , half of those in many communities might resist due to the fear of being caught and going to prison. but in societies where that fear doesnt exist, a higher percentage of those with the inclination are likely to act on them and molest.

[OMG]

Posted by: ah-pee-chorus | June 26, 2011 at 10:56 PM

Thank you, you are right it never occurred to me that in communities, which reports molestation to the police the “fear factor”, might drive numbers down, even more than the usual baseline study. Inasmuch in the Charedi community were molestation are swept under the rug, not only will the people who are on the borderline get the courage to molest, but the molesters will commit far more molestations. Because they know they are protected, therefore, the studies which assumes that ten new victims per annum for each active molester, might be to low, based on the fact,that the offender knows there is no consequences to his actions, definitely he will get more brazen with his actions. This is interesting. I will have to see if there are any studies from the church before the molestation scandal broke in the open, and after the zero tolerance initiative, were instituted.

[Adam Neira]

To Anuran,

I'm very happy for certain people to read what I have counselled on the last fifteen years. There have been a plethora of issues. You can check whether I was proven right or not. I am proud to say I have affected many public policy positions and people in a positive way. There is a method to my madness. BTW, everything is recorded. You can track the chronology. FYI, the World Peace 2050 prophecy came one crystal clear autumn day in April 2000 after an amazing five years.

See waybackwhenmachine.

[Jeff]

APC, I'm very close to leaving again, largely because of him. I find him even more offensive than the frum trolls. (That, I'm sure he'll tell me, is because I'm in league with the forces of darkness.) When Shmarya and I had a conversation about this several weeks ago, it was in the aftermath of a thread in which people were confronting him about his assertions, and he was implying there would be dire consequences for challenging him. People other than just myself were noticeably creeped out.

If I were Shmarya, I'd kick his ass out of here for his abysmally stupid remarks about sexuality alone. At least the frum trolls don't claim to base their opinions on individual revelation.

Shmarya, I understand why you allow the frummies to remain; they serve as an example of the mindset you're fighting. I think you often show them too much leniency, but I get it.

Allowing this guy to remain serves no purpose of that kind.

[masortiman]

"Having said that, support for gay marriage and accepting homosexual behaviour as being a valid lifestyle for Jews is a perversion of Jewish law/ halacha and the Torah according to any traditional Jewish group whether Samaritans, Karaites, Orthodox Jews and non-U.S. Conservative Jews. "

While AFAIK R'Golinkin (the leading posek in the Israeli Masorti movement) has not accepted the Dorff Tshuva allowing Jewish gay commitment ceremonies, or ordination of gays, AFAIK he DOES agree with R'Roth that its acceptable, and even desirable, to support gay CIVIL marriage. If R'Weiss Halivni does not also support that position, I have not been so informed.