Jewish Press Reporter Argues Homosexuals Are "Self-Indulgent," Should Suffer In Silence

"But do [closeted homosexual] Jews complain? Do Catholic priests, the overwhelming majority of whom remain celibate their entire lives, complain? No. They wage their internal battles quietly, recognizing that not every topic need be discussed openly and not every feeling need be publicized and validated. Why, then, can't Orthodox homosexuals do the same? Why can't they struggle silently and heroically as do so many others?… But openly homosexual Orthodox Jews apparently care little about the very essence of what it means to be a servant of God and demand that everyone accept them as they are. Their needs, their wants, their desires are what matters."

 

Orthodox Homosexuals And The Pursuit Of Self-Indulgence
Elliot Resnick • The Jewish Press

   Recently, while doing research for a news article I was writing for The Jewish Press, I found myself watching a YouTube clip concerning Jewish homosexuals. About two minutes into the clip, my heart suddenly dropped. There speaking on my computer screen was a young man I had once known as a sweet frum boy. Today - as I discovered from the YouTube video - he is an open homosexual.
 
   I don't know when this young man - I'll call him Dovid - declared himself a homosexual. As I watched the clip, my mind wandered back to the summer I served as his waiter in camp; when I took him around an amusement park on the camp's grand trip; when he looked to me as his anchor as he dared go on his first roller coaster.
 
   Seeing him speak shamelessly as a homosexual on YouTube pained me. "Why?" I asked Dovid's image on my computer screen, as if he could somehow hear me. "Why must you publicize your orientation for the whole world to know?"

   Being attracted to other men while growing up in an Orthodox Jewish community must be difficult for any young male. And keeping one's struggles private can be lonely and depressing. But are closeted homosexuals the only ones who struggle in solitude and silence? Don't tens of thousands of Orthodox teenagers and young adults - to say nothing of older men and women who never married - struggle silently with their attraction to the opposite sex?
 
   For so many issues, one can attend lectures that offer chizuk and advice. Hardly any for this issue. In so many areas of life one can discuss personal difficulties with friends. Not in this area. Some individuals hint at their struggles to a particular rebbe to whom they feel close, and here and there one may also encounter allusions to this topic in various sefarim. By and large, though, unmarried heterosexual Orthodox Jews suffer in solitude.
 
   But do those Jews complain? Do Catholic priests, the overwhelming majority of whom remain celibate their entire lives, complain? No. They wage their internal battles quietly, recognizing that not every topic need be discussed openly and not every feeling need be publicized and validated.
 
   Why, then, can't Orthodox homosexuals do the same? Why can't they struggle silently and heroically as do so many others?
 
   Instead of complaining that no one understands them, why can't they see their battle as an opportunity to reach unique levels of righteousness? Most contemporary Jewish thinkers view marital relations positively, but Judaism has always had an ascetic streak as well. The Rambam's son, Rabbeinu Avraham, seems to extol the Talmudic sage Ben Azzai and the prophets Eliyahu and Elisha who never married (see chapters 10-12 in his Hamaspik L'Ovdei Hashem). Moshe Rabbeinu of course did marry, but according to the Talmud he never knew his wife intimately after spending 40 days and nights in communion with God. According to this line of thinking, those Jews who find it impossible to marry a woman can arguably reach levels of holiness unattainable by others.
 
   But many Orthodox homosexuals seem uninterested in attaining spiritual greatness or in struggling with their feelings like so many of their brethren. Instead, they declare that we must recognize them. We must acknowledge their desires. We must affirm their feelings.
 
   Why do they demand this recognition?
 
   No single explanation provides a full answer, but contemporary culture deserves a large share of the blame. We live in a self-centered society where the only thing that matters is "me" and "my feelings." Duty is passé. An emotionally stable life has replaced the well-lived life as man's highest goal. As Federal Judge Janice Rogers Brown once said, "To be or not to be is no longer the question. The question is: How do you feel?"
 
   And if subjective feelings rather than objective truth are of paramount importance, why shouldn't homosexuals tell the whole world about their innermost desires? "Why should I hide a part of myself?" they ask. "It's me. It's who I am."
 
   Jewish thought teaches one to be embarrassed of one's failings, to hide one's flaws from man and God, to repress one's base characteristics and desires. To be holy, according to many Jewish thinkers (see, for example, Rashi on Leviticus 19:2), is to avoid prohibited sexual thoughts and deeds. Not for naught did God seal His covenant with the Jewish people with the bris milah. "This is the summons the seal of Abraham brings to you - stifle animal desires at their outset, stifle them at their birth," writes Rabbi Samson Raphael Hirsch in his Horeb. "To keep this seal of the covenant as something holy is fundamental to the eternity of [the Jewish] people."
 
   But openly homosexual Orthodox Jews apparently care little about the very essence of what it means to be a servant of God and demand that everyone accept them as they are. Their needs, their wants, their desires are what matters.

   Will Dovid ever return to being that sweet innocent boy I remember? I don't know. But at the very least, we may be able to prevent others like him from descending down the wrong path if we reexamine our society's self-centered, feelings-based culture and take efforts to transform it to one revolving around virtue, duty, and the divine mandate.

      Elliot Resnick is a Jewish Press staff reporter and a Ph.D. student at Yeshiva University's Bernard Revel Graduate School of Jewish Studies.

That Elliot Resnik is is stupid enough to think that closeted Orthodox homosexuals are closeted because they don't want to damage the community is astounding. Closeted Orthodox homosexuals are closeted because living openly as a homosexual means in almost every case means the exclusion of that homosexual from the Orthodox/ultra-Orthodox community and a considerable amount of suffering for that homosexual and his family.

Past that, the suffering in silence Resnick advocates results in suicides and addiction problems.

Homosexuality is not a choice and, despite some disreputable claims to the contrary, it can't be "cured."

To attack homosexuals for being homosexual, for refusing to hide their orientation to please Resnick and his ilk, is sick, and his comparison of homosexuals to Catholic priests – who choose the priesthood knowing in advance that it calls for celibacy – is idiotic.

If there is any shame left in the Klass family – and after years of publishing the Jewish Press, I don't see how there could be – it should be ashamed that is pays this man's salary and that it published this horrible column.

Related Post: Gay Orthodox Jews: A Response From “Dovid” To The Jewish Press.

Comments

[Aleksandr Sigalov]

Shmaryah,

This guy has a Ph.D. (Ph.oney D.ouche) In the world of idiots this degree bears a lot of weight.

Believe me when I tell you, academic world is not what it used to be. Full of all kinds of charlatans and wanabes...

Also, I'd suggest that you would be careful when you say that "homosexuality is not a choice". Percentage of genetic deviants is very very small.

Most LGBTs indeed made a choice. And that is very sad for many reasons.

[reb chaim]

Oy vey - The Jewish Press! Any resemblence between this rag and a real newspaper is purely coincidental. As long as their many mostly amateur writers stick to analyzing the parshat hashavuah, they're okay. But whenever they stray and attempt to handle modern topics such as homosexuality, all bets are off. Let's not put much stock in this latest attempt at orthodox psychology.

[seymour]

comparring a single guy in the frum community to a homosexual is really pushing it

also since he only references is from seforiem what does one expect

[Guest]

Many people take issue with the gay community for its insistence that everyone accept them. Most people in this country could not care less what others do in their bedroom. It's the gay community's insistence on taking the "in your face" approach that irks most people.

Take for example, the gay pride parade in Jerusalem.

The Orthodox community in Jerusalem never said a word about gays before. But when the gay community insisted on coming to Jerusalem and expressing their sexual orientation in everyone's face, that's when the explosion erupted.

Taking the "in your face" approach has been diagnosed by many experts as showing a tremendous lack of self confidence on the issue, and needing, or craving, the acceptance of others.

What that tells me is that gays inherently feel very shamed about their sexual orientation, and need the acceptance of others to validate themselves as human beings. I SUPPORT GAY RIGHTS, but it needs to pointed out this inherent lack of pride on their part, and their need for others to accept them, points to some deep issues that they have with their own way of life.

Thanks.

[Deremes]

I don't like the Jewish press but in this case they are right.

What is it that with the Miskav Zuchor'niks that they are the only ones who wants it that Torah Jews should accept them for what they are?
Go sin and have sex with another male but no one needs to know about it.
How would it sound that a group will be formed of Orthodox Jews who all they want is desecrate the shabbos? We will follow the Torah accept for shabbos and we ask to be accepted.
Or we will follow the Torah but i desire to eat shrimp.
Being a homosexual means desiring to have sex with another male.The Torah calls it a To'evah no ifs and buts.

In a crazy political correct world it has different names. But it boils down to wanting to be with another man and will not resist his sexual urges.

[FirstGenerationBavarianAmerican]

"This guy has a Ph.D."

After I put on my reading glasses, I saw the word 'student' after Ph.D. No guarantee he will complete the program.

[Guest]

Deremes,

Good point!

[Shmarya]

The Orthodox community in Jerusalem never said a word about gays before. But when the gay community insisted on coming to Jerusalem and expressing their sexual orientation in everyone's face, that's when the explosion erupted.…

Posted by: Guest | June 20, 2011 at 03:04 PM

Jerusalem is a city in the democratic State of Israel, not a city in haredi-land.

Homosexuals have the right to be openly gay, especially in Jerusalem, Israel's capital.

And Jerusalem has its own homosexuals, it did not need to import gays to have a gay rights parade.

[Critical minyaN]

any PHD student has to publish. publishing in the Jewish press is considered a great intellectual achievement in yeshiva university. most can barely write an email.

[against hypocrisy]

this issue tears at me... Years ago, i had a friend who contemplated suicide. he was catholic and parents were deeply religious. when he told them that from the time he was a pre-adolescent and had dreamed of boys (not girls), his parents disconnected from him.
when i asked why he felt a need to tell me and others, he said it was to help others understand and not be considered a pariah or amoral. many in the gay community struggle with this, perhaps explaining the sometimes overly-vocal displays among some.
What the Torah says is clear, but how one responds to those who are gay should be more sensitive, not one of condemnation

[Guest]

Shmarya,

Of course Israel is a democracy. Which is why gays are free to practice whatever they want in Israel, unlike any other country in the Middle East.

We are not discussing the legal aspects of this. We are discussing why it is that people, and especially Orthodox Jews take issue with the publicity that the gays desperately crave.

My theory, backed by experts in the field, is that they feel very insecure; hence the need to have others accept them.

I would appreciate if any gays on this blog could enlighten us as to your feelings on this.

Thanks

[Shmarya]

I'd love to see a list of those "experts" who back you.

[reb chaim]

No, no no, minyaN. Publishing in the Jewish in academic terms is absolutely worthless, even by YU standards. It's one step above (or below) publishing a handbill such as those that appear on the streets of Borough Park, Williamsburg, or other orthodox neighborhoods. If this author is working towards a PhD is psychology, I'd seriously advise him to change careers.

[OMG]

It is self evident that the author of this article with his PHD, lacks the fundamental understanding, why suppressing ones sexuality is like Chinese water torture. Every day the person has to suppress who he is, the suffering will only grow more unbearable, to the point that suicide or drugs is sometimes the only option. In this writers view, living a lie is acceptable, as long nobody else know about his pain. Why interrupt his life with someone’s pain, and what offends him, is that he wants to keep the memories of this young boy when the writer was his waiter, that is selfish. It goes to show that empathy is more important than education, and compassion is something that your surroundings and upbringing will influence you, for the good or the bad.

[Dan]

But do [closeted homosexual] Jews complain?

Reading-comprehension fail. The phrase that belongs in brackets is "unmarried heterosexuals." Go back and re-read.

[Deremes]

By observant Jews who follow the Torah,a homosexual is no different then someone sleeping with a married women. Its all about sex and both wont or cant resist their urges and both are manivolim.

I doubt that it was a suicidal issue in the Orthodox community up until when it became a political correct issue.We all knew that it was wrong to be with another man. All of a sudden it became much a different thing,that its ok and you were born like this and don't be ashamed just be proud and make sure everyone knows. The Torah doesn't mean this it means that. How disgusting this whole issue is.

[OMG]

Posted by: Deremes | June 20, 2011 at 03:05 PM

The overwhelming majority of Jews do not adhere to the laws Shabbat, so what. Additionally the graphic description of gay as “Miskav Zuchor'niks” that by itself, tells us, that even if the person would have secret gay relation with another consenting adult, you will still not approve of it. Therefore, I most conclude that your total argument is just cover for what really scare you that is someone being gay.

[seymour]

I don't like the Jewish press but in this case they are right.

What is it that with the Miskav Zuchor'niks that they are the only ones who wants it that Torah Jews should accept them for what they are?
Go sin and have sex with another male but no one needs to know about it.
How would it sound that a group will be formed of Orthodox Jews who all they want is desecrate the shabbos? We will follow the Torah accept for shabbos and we ask to be accepted.
Or we will follow the Torah but i desire to eat shrimp.
Being a homosexual means desiring to have sex with another male.The Torah calls it a To'evah no ifs and buts.

In a crazy political correct world it has different names. But it boils down to wanting to be with another man and will not resist his sexual urges.

Posted by: Deremes | June 20, 2011 at 03:05 PM

THE TORAH NEVER EVER SAID BEING GAY IS A PROBLEM.

it is the act that is prohibited whether one is truly gay or not

[Deremes]

Posted by: OMG | June 20, 2011 at 03:47 PM

The issue here is ORTHODOX homosexuals who are asking to be accepted in the ORTHODOX community as if its nothing wrong.

Of course i will not approve if someone does it in secret but its still different then flaunting.

[Deremes]

Posted by: seymour | June 20, 2011 at 03:47 PM

Dont gay people act on it?

[Guest]

Deremes has a very good point. There is nothing wrong with admitting it.

Imagine if those who don't keep Shabbos want to be accepted as Orthodox Jews who don't keep Shabbos?

It's hypocritical.

Let gays be gays. Nobody cares. But it's impossible to be accepted by the Orthodox community as an Orthodox gay Jew. If you're gay, you're not Orthodox. Just as one who doesn't keep Shabbos is not Orthodox.

[Jeff]

"But are closeted homosexuals the only ones who struggle in solitude and silence? Don't tens of thousands of Orthodox teenagers and young adults - to say nothing of older men and women who never married - struggle silently with their attraction to the opposite sex?"
This is the most absurd section of the article. Resnick knows that there is a huge difference between Orthodox Judaism's acceptance of homosexuality, and that of heterosexuality. There is no type of homosexual behaviour that is accepted, while the assumption is that a heterosexual Orthodox Jew will be able to enter into a religiously approved union at some point. In addition, there are many single's activities where interaction between the sexes is encouraged.
I do hope that Resnick's doctoral thesis shows a little more academic honesty, and critical thinking, than his poorly thought out article.

[Common Sense]

I just got my Ph.D 4 weeks ago. This bumbling bafoon's asinine comments reflects NOTHING like that which is common in the world of academia (among current students- at least in my circles). THE FACT THAT HE USES THE JEWISH PRESS AS HIS MEANS OF COMMUNICATION REFLECTS THE KIND OF QUALITY THIS MORON ACADEMIC WORK. Me and my friends publish in research journals, AND WE WOULD LAUGH AT SOMEONE WHO WRITES IN THE NATIONAL INQUIRER, OR JEWISH PRESS.

[Common Sense]

Sorry... Meant to say "QUALITY OF THIS MORON'S ACADEMIC WORK"

[OMG]

Posted by: Deremes | June 20, 2011 at 03:53 PM

Come-on, you know that I understood your view and the point I was making was not to debate you, I know you would cite Torah. It was your attempt to hide the fact that gay relationship in your view is repulsive. The way you phrased your view, a person who is new to this blog, might wrongly believe that you would condone gay relationship if it were not in the open. Nevertheless, I knew it is misrepresentation; therefore, I called you on it.
My other point is more of a reminder that the Jewish Conservative movement was a branch of Orthodoxy with a different view about Halacha. The Orthodox excluded them; therefore, today they are a different branch of Judaism. Therefore, your argument is not that clear, it could be that down the road, the gay community would be accepted in the MO community. Finally, you know that I would not let go, and call you on my other challenge, why use a derogatory “Miskav Zuchor'niks” term? That explains all a person needs to know about your view.

[Bassy the Haredi Slayer]

If Orthodox gays want to be accepted by der shote and his ilk instead of having sexual intercourse with a consent adult they should have sex with underage boys.

That way they will protected and honored by the community.

[ah-pee-chorus]

i agree with the author to a very slight extent. gays should be the first ones to realize that they were born that way, it is not a choice, and therefore the torah cannot possibly have been authored by a fair and merciful god. no such god would possibly instruct his followers to kill people for their inability to spend their entire lives living a lie, while being celibate, and while being forbidden from having any kind of family or long term relationship of their own.
so these ortho-gays should definitely not demand acceptance from those that believe in the divinity and morality of this book. what they SHOULD do is run as fast as they can from orthodoxy, while continuing to scream. but their screams should be directed at waking orthos up from their immoral and hateful beliefs to the point where they too realize that orthodoxy is based on a very hateful book.
of course resnicks essay is filled with nonsense. his analogies are fatally flawed and his logic non-existent. i'll just highlight one of the comical lines...

And if subjective feelings rather than objective truth are of paramount importance, why shouldn't homosexuals tell the whole world about their innermost desires?

here he paints homosexuality and the desire to be considered normal and accepted rather than living a secret lie as being a "subjective feeling" as compared to the torahs call for the death penalty for gay sex as being the "objective truth ". in fact the truth is precisely THE OPPOSITE!
their homosexual desires are objective truth and the prohibition against such is purely subjective.

[Brian]

Reading this article on Thursday (not my copy of the Jewish Press, but my mother in law's) made my blood boil.

What makes this worrying is the fact that the Jewish Press purports to cater to the modern orthodox community. If this is "modern" then god help the future of Judiasm and the direction it's heading towards.

[Deremes]

Posted by: OMG | June 20, 2011 at 04:42 PM

The Toarh calls it Mishkav Zochor. So you dont like when i call them “Miskav Zuchor'niks,fine call it whatever name it is.

[Aleksandr Sigalov]

THE TORAH NEVER EVER SAID BEING GAY IS A PROBLEM.

it is the act that is prohibited whether one is truly gay or not

Seymor,

If a man does not act upon his homosexual needs - he is not gay. Regardless what he thinks or how he feels.

As example, most people are quite capable of murder, and I'm sure they even have a list of people they would like to see dead. However, intent to kill someone does not constitues a crime (unless its acted upon), and DOES NOT make one a murderer.

Same with gays and all that stuff. Gay fantasies do not make you gay. Sorry ;)

[ah-pee-chorus]

Not for naught did God seal His covenant with the Jewish people with the bris milah. "This is the summons the seal of Abraham brings to you - stifle animal desires at their outset, stifle them at their birth," writes Rabbi Samson Raphael Hirsch in his Horeb.

here resnick shows that circumcision is indeed meant to minimize mans sexual desire and pleasure. the rambam too made this clear. and while this discussion is better suited for the topic of whether circumcision should be banned, the fact that resnick acknowledges this and still is in favor of performing this procedure on a minor shows that his blind adherence to the torah has removed his ability to think rationally and morally. his position on homosexuals is just another example.

[Brian]

If this weren't so sad, it would be amusing to reflect upon how Rabbinic Judaism picks and chooses what and what-not to interpret literally from the Tanach.

So apparently "Man should not lie with another man... this is an abomination" should be taken literally (as it says so clearly in the Torah) but Shir Hashirim should not be taken literally at all (even though its true meaning is in plain view, as per the previous), and any attempt to take this literally is completely and utterly wrong.

Halacha is a torah-derived anthology of bigotry and prejudice through the ages. When will people realize that the Rabbinate have the authority to reinterpret anything they want, but choose not to do so?

[ah-pee-chorus]

its quite ironic (insofar as the complete immorality of the torah is made evident) that according to halacha-as per the rambam, a man may RAPE a boy under the age of 9 with no consequences, even HIS OWN SON.
but if that same rapist has concensual sex with another adult male he gets the death penalty. if any reader here, including ortho/haredi heard of a country that had these 2 laws on the books, they would certainly condemn that country and view these laws as having been authored by a very twisted and immoral legislative body. but when its the torah it magically becomes truth , beauty, and the height of moral thought. how sad.

[Deremes]

ah-pee-chorus,
If not for the internet you would of been suffering in silence like the closet homosexuals.Atleast you better of then them that you can vent and still be in the "closet".

[Aleksandr Sigalov]

When will people realize that the Rabbinate have the authority to reinterpret anything they want, but choose not to do so?

They dont have that authority, actually.

It is the responsibility of the Levites (Tribe of Levi). Jews (as in Tribe of Judah) do not qualify. Most rabbis ARE NOT Levites !!!

[masortiman]

brian, rabbinic Judaism, true to its essential concern with the dignity of the human being, and its positive view of human sexuality, HAS addressed the issue of homosexuality - by, properly, reading Leviticus literally -as you lie with a woman - which refers to some homosexual acts, but not all - and then using rabbinic authority to modify the rabbinic fences that extended that definition. See the Dorff tshuva.

Do not confuse "rabbinic Judaism" with "Orthodox Judaism"

[masortiman]

"Imagine if those who don't keep Shabbos want to be accepted as Orthodox Jews who don't keep Shabbos?

It's hypocritical.

Let gays be gays. Nobody cares. But it's impossible to be accepted by the Orthodox community as an Orthodox gay Jew. If you're gay, you're not Orthodox. Just as one who doesn't keep Shabbos is not Orthodox."

Keeping shabbos does not prevent one from keeping one of the essentials of a Jewish life - not being able to have a committed, loving, relationship, does. Despite tales of celibate saints (which sound more appropriate to a Catholic paper than to JP, thank you very much). We are not called to be Moses.

Which does not mean by itself that the law can change - but it DOES obligate the rabbinate to try to find a way to make that change within Torah. One part of the rabbinate has managed to do so.

[Dave]

Brian, it's funny when you talk about Rabbinic Judaism picking and choosing what to interpret literally in the Tanach and what to not interpret literally, since even the opposition ie. the Karaites do the same thing as the Orthodox do ie. they pick and choose as to what to interpret literally in the Tanach. In fact often the Karaites sages "pasken" the same way as some Orthodox rabbis, but they just cite different sources and stick on the obligatory label "the Talmud is just a work of men", and admittedly they do less gyrations of interpretation and occasionally come with innovative ideas/ hiddushim (eg. you can build a mikveh in your own home)
All I'm trying to say is that all traditional movements in Judaism do pick and choose what to interpret literally and what not to.
So, basically most traditional movements in Judaism would de facto say "if you are totally consistent ie. interpreting literally or interpreting metaphorically, then you're not a traditional Jew".

[the usual chaim]

I dont necessarily agree with the approach, but I wanted to point out that this past sunday's NY times magazine had a very interesting article on the ideas of several gay therapists who question the value of "coming out" for deeply religious (there, evangelicals) individuals who want to retain their religious identity and also realize they are homosexual. the basic argument is that there are many factors that go into living a satisfying life - one of these being, for religious people, participation in a particular religious community. if that community doesnt accept homosexuality on principle, then to participate would mean to stay in the closet. that might not mean being celibate, but it would mean keeping quiet about it..... again, i am not necessarily siding with this view, but people should read the article and think about it in the context of jewish orthodoxy.

[Chaim Levin (Dovid in the article)]

While skimping through the comments on this article, I decided to not to explore reasons as to why I believe people are gay, or how they "become" gay. I'd simply like to state a few simple facts that are true for myself while growing up as gay orthodox jew.

1)The sweet frum boy that the author refers to in this article is me, Chaim Levin.

2)The author of this article never contacted me to let me know that he would be writing in particular about me (even though he changed my name, common decency never hurt anyone),he knows me quite well as he states he was a staff member in camp with me many years ago.
3)When I say those words that I say every day to almost everyone I meet, the three words "I am gay", my intent is not to shove anything down anyone's throat. I know that when I tell people that I, Chaim, who grew up in the trenches of Crown Heights within the four walls of the chabad community,am making light of a reality that most people never believed existed, an openly gay former lubavitch 22 year old. The point that I'm making is that we exist in your communities, we come from the same place that you do, and were no different than you either.

4)I believe that by coming out publicly I am sending a message to all those out there that are still so ashamed about the fact that they're gay, the ones that are still hiding alone in isolation, I'm telling them that they're perfect the way they are. No one should suffer in silence because of something that they didn't choose, especially for being gay, because there's no shame in loving someone, male or female. And when these people receive positive encouragment from people who have been in the painful place that they are in now, it can emmpower them and give them hope for a better future. When I was 17 and in the closet there weren't any videos like there are today, I was so conflicted and so isolated, and most of all I was ashamed.

5)Had the author spoken to me before he wrote this article I believe that he would've reconsidering writing this article because of the fact that I spent 2 years in 'therapy' by a group called JONAH trying to change my sexual orientation. Not only didn't it work, but this group harmed me physically, emotionally and financially.

6) I never chose to be gay, no one does, for who in their right mind would "choose" to face the risk of loosing their family, community, and friends because the community that they live in will reject them. That's what happened to me, and believe me when I say it, there's no way I would've ever chosen to live through those horrible experiences of rejection from everyone in the orthodox community that supposedly cared about me.

7)My last point, though I believe should be obvious to most is that when I tell someone that I am gay, I am NOT telling them about what I do privately behind closed doors. The same way one doesn't ask his friends or parents if they keep the laws of family purity, it's no one's place to decide or judge me based on the torah for simply being gay. It's more of an excuse to be homophobic rather then understanding what it's really like for someone who is in the conflicted position of where I once was, suffering in silence, all alone.

[Simon]

It's clear that none of these heterosexuals who are commenting against gays, starting with the buffoon who wrote the article, know anything about what it's like to be gay.
For you heterosexual homophobic guys--you have no idea what it's like to never be attracted to any woman whatsoever, and to only be attracted to men. You only know what the Torah and masora say (barely). You do not know what it's like, although in typical heterosexual arrogance you might think that you know. Get that through your head. So don't presume to pontificate on who is gay and who isn't, or that you have to act on it or you don't. Just shut your mouth. You don't know what you are talking about.

[ruthie]

i hope gays have the right to marry soon.
only because i can't stand...discrimination.
very very simple.
i will be very happy the day gays can marry...and i'll be
very happy for all the gay people i know. some of the nicest people in the world.

[SkepticalYid]

@Deremes: There are a number of Poskim who have ruled that being Gay is a matter of ones, not necessarily toevah. They allow Gay people to be part of the kehillah, but not to have any kovod (aliyah, etc...)

[american_hater]

being a corn holing bris sucking faggot is as horrible as a man having relations with a pig...i think the faggots need more aids to wipe em out

[ah-pee-chorus]

: Chaim Levin (Dovid in the article)-

i hope youre in a better place emotionally than before you came out. it sounds like youve been through a lot.
is it accurate to say that you still accept orthodox judaism as being the proper understanding of how one should live?
or do you reject it and just want them to change their approach to those in their midst who are gay?

anyway, i wish you nothing but happiness and commend you on your courage to speak out.

[MamzerHaKodesh]

In my (non-LGBT) opinion, the author's opinion is understandable but very ignorant. I can't articulate exactly why, although I'm sure that if you search you can find articles by others expressing why in clear terms.

The closest example I can give was when I was with a (white Jewish) relative, whom I love dearly and is a wonderful Neshama, in a car in traffic.

Outside, a Black woman walked by with curl extensions, or was it braids, I'm not sure. My relative turned to me and said something like, "Look how she walks, like an African Queen". It was clear that my relative meant this as a term of disparagement and mockery. Almost as if to say, "how DARE that woman be so AFRICAN. So unashamed. So unhidden."

To my relative, the Black lady in question seemed to be 'flaunting' something, just because she was wearing her hair in a style of the African motherland and diaspora. Not wearing her hair chemically straightened, or tightly pulled back, or cut short, seemed to be "flaunting" her heritage.

In this same way, being openly gay and not hiding it may appear to those who are not gay to be "flaunting" their gayness. But to be honest, it just seems that way to you. LGBTs "flaunt" their sexuality like those with less than 20/20 vision "flaunt" their glasses.

It's true that LGBTs do talk about their sexual orientation more, but that is because they feel the need to - and in fact, this can be very educational for those who are LGBT and confused and need explanations, or heterosexuals who are confused about it - IF they are willing to be openminded and take in the information.

I am not in the author's mind, but it seems plain to me that the author's main problem isn't with the openness or outspokenness of "Dovid" as a gay man, it is because Dovid is gay. I feel the author tries to disguise this and seem 'neutral' or non-closeminded or bigoted, but it comes across anyway. I'd go as far to say the author is himself in the closet - in the closet about being homophobic and ignorant. He knows that closemindedness is akin to idolatry, and that idolatry is a sin. However, homosexual sex is also a sin. Thereby, he decides the problem is Dovid "flaunting" his gayness.

[What kind of goyishe name is Harold z"l?]

Chaim Levin - You are a brave young man. May G-d only bless you with good things from now on.

I have a question for the JP author - Why do Orthodox Jewish greedy lying thieves (too numerous to mention by name) have to commit cheat, steal and commit fraud (every 10 minutes)?
"Why can't they struggle silently and heroically as do so many others?".
"No single explanation provides a full answer, but contemporary culture deserves a large share of the blame. We live in a self-centered society where the only thing that matters is "me" and "my feelings."

etc., etc. etc..... ad nauseam.

[ruthie]

being a corn holing bris sucking faggot is as horrible as a man having relations with a pig...i think the faggots need more aids to wipe em out

c'mon! where's the love?
you sound really nice.
if you're who i think you are....calm down. NOW
take it easy
if not, boy you sound like you have a penis problem. learn to like yourself...and you'll like all those around you.

[Crusty]

Does anyone have any theory why no one seems to condemn or even notice lesbians?

[Kish Mich]

I really want to eat cheeseburgers and lobster but I don't. Ass plowing a dude is the same thing. Sorry my heblowing friend, dude's are not born fag. Be it your Uncle Shloimy juggled my balls as a kid issues, or your mommy demasculinated me issues, or your I never got attention as a kid so I'll get some sucking off Chaim issues, faggotry is the giving in to a taivah. Hell, there's plenty of broads I see all day that I wouldn't mind giving the old howyadooskee to, but I don't cause I'm married. Should I sleep with every skank on 13th Avenue readt to pin their knees behind their ears and then demand my wife and shul accept me because "I was born that way?". Hell no! So if a dude wants to cornhole his heblowing fayg friends, he ain't living the life of a frum yid. Period.

[Aleksandr Sigalov]

Does anyone have any theory why no one seems to condemn or even notice lesbians?

South Park, Season 11, Episode 6 sorta answers that question ;)

[SkepticalYid]

It's interesting to see how foulmouthed and disgusting these supposedly holyy frum Jews will be when their dander's up.

[Shmarya]

I really want to eat cheeseburgers and lobster but I don't. Ass plowing a dude is the same thing. Sorry my heblowing friend, dude's are not born fag. Be it your Uncle Shloimy juggled my balls as a kid issues, or your mommy demasculinated me issues, or your I never got attention as a kid so I'll get some sucking off Chaim issues, faggotry is the giving in to a taivah. Hell, there's plenty of broads I see all day that I wouldn't mind giving the old howyadooskee to, but I don't cause I'm married. Should I sleep with every skank on 13th Avenue readt to pin their knees behind their ears and then demand my wife and shul accept me because "I was born that way?". Hell no! So if a dude wants to cornhole his heblowing fayg friends, he ain't living the life of a frum yid. Period.

Posted by: Kish Mich | June 20, 2011 at 07:58 PM

There's a simple fact you forget.

You have a "kosher" outlet for your sexuality, but under your understanding of halakha, a homosexual does not.

Past that, homosexuality is not a choice.

People choose to eat shrimp or chazzer and they have ample willpower to make the choice not to.

But hardwired sexuality is not something overcome by willpower. Gays don't simply decide to be attracted to women.

You're condemning these people to lives of loneliness, celibacy and horrible guilt and pain.

[Aleksandr Sigalov]

Past that, homosexuality is not a choice.

Shmaryah, with all due respect, I would like to point out to you that you are wrong. Genetic gays represent only very small % of any given population. All others CHOOSE TO DO IT.

I do not have time to dig it up, but if you will look at normal studies you will find it there. I don't remember exactly what is was when I read it, but the number is very very small, 1% if that.

Again, with all due respect...

[the usual chaim]

shmarya -

why are you allowing all the crude and hurtful comments? (eg. kish mich and american hater)

disagreement is one thing, I might not agree with deremes' view, but he at least presents his views in a respectful manner. the other two clowns are totally low-brow and i dont see how it adds to the conversation at all.

[Shmarya]

If haredim want to show the world how homophobic, racist and crude they are, why should I stand in their way?

[Shmarya]

Posted by: Aleksandr Sigalov | June 20, 2011 at 08:19 PM>

Actually, what you wrote is false.

[Office of the Chief Rabbi]

Shmarya,
Very well put at 8:13.

Once one comes to the realization that gays and lesbians are hard wired that way, it becomes easy to dismiss the attitudes found in our favorite ancient near eastern literature. Simply, God created them that way.
God spoke perfectly at Sinai; the problem is that some things were heard erroneously, and other things were changed over time.

Call your New York state senator to vote for marriage equality this week.

[mimi]

This peeves me. I know two very lonely heterosexual women who married closeted gay men. These men were both strict Catholics who married to appease their families. One was abandoned and one had to divorce her husband due to lack of any affection (physical and emotional) whatsoever. Being closeted does not only affect the homosexual. It is also CRUELTY to his wife! This is not just a gay rights issue.

[Aleksandr Sigalov]

Actually, what you wrote is false.

Ok. I will see if I can find you some proper info on this subject.

[Dave]

You know, this is a never ending argument.
The pro-homosexual behaviour people are going to keeping on insisting they're right and that everyone else is a bigot, and the anti-homosexual behaviour people are going to keep on insisting that they're right. All that may be accomplished is that the anti-homosexual behaviour people will be driven underground.
Congratulations, you've won. Be happy. You're in charge.
See you in 50 years when the debate will be about legalizing polygamy, transgenderism, polyarmory, and incest.

[Aleksandr Sigalov]

Yes, thats also a good argument, Dave.

[MamzerHaKodesh]

Crusty - to me it seems very clear that the Torah is written by men, for men, with women being considered 'products' or commodities and objects to trade or possess. Therefore, their sexuality is considered unimportant. They are relegated to the status of dolls whose pleasure and wishes are unimportant.

Because women are considered 'nonpersons' and unimportant, if they have sex it's considered 'unreal'.

I mean, to me, this seems glaringly, pathetically, mind-bogglingly obvious. I can't understand why people actually wonder about this.

[MamzerHaKodesh]

To clarify : If women have sex WITH OTHER WOMEN , it is considered 'unreal'. Since men are considered real and autonomous, a woman engaging in sex with a man would be punishable by death, because she isn't acting like the slave/object the man wants. The man would also be killed by Torah law because he was stealing another man's 'property'.

[ah-pee-chorus]

MamzerHaKodesh | June 20, 2011 at 09:04 PM

absolutely.

I mean, to me, this seems glaringly, pathetically, mind-bogglingly obvious. I can't understand why people actually wonder about this.

i am often as perplexed as you.
the torah couldnt make it any clearer.

[Crusty]

to further clarify: men are threatened by male homosexuality in a personal and emotional way so they make a lot of noise about condemning it. They are not threatened by female sexuality so they can leave it alone.

[Aleksandr Sigalov]

MamzerHaKodesh and APC,

You both confusing Torah with Torah.

You both confusing Torah of Rabbis with Torah of Moses.

You both confusing The Law of Rabbis with The Law of Moses.

THESE ARE COMPLETELY DIFFERENT BOOKS.

[ah-pee-chorus]

Aleksandr Sigalov-
i'm not confusing anything. the position of the the written torah does just fine in its misogyny without the help of the oral law. case in point is your desired response to this case. your position, based only on the torah of moses is a shining example of the moral landscape of 3000 years ago, in which women were less than second class citizens, and were a mans property.
in certain instance the rabbinic laws have clearly perverted the rules set forth by the torahs author. but treatment of women is not one of them.

[itchiemayer]

We all have our own perceptions of what is "fair" and "unfair". It doesn't mean we are correct. There are many things which don't appear to be "fair". Some are born wealthy, some dirt poor. Some are born with mental and physical gifts, others are born with mental and physical impairments. Is that fair? Is that one person is born heterosexual and another homosexual fair? That a middle-aged Kohen is so limited in who he can take for a wife relative to all other Jewish men..is that fair? Well, you can take the easy way out and say this and that are unfair, which means God is mean and Torah Judaism is nullified. That's your right. However, I believe whatever God gives or doesn't give to us is fair. I am only human and it surely can be difficult to understand that it is all part of the master plan, but I do believe it is all part of God's master plan which is for good. God gives everyone tests, and my test is of equal difficulty relative to who I am as yours are relative to who you are. It's all fair. Some of you believe that if you don't think it is "fair" then that means you can be critical of God because what fair and just God would do such a thing. With that thinking, unless we were all created into the same circumstances, you can argue it's all not fair. Some are tall, I am short. I am at a built in disadvantage in life as per many studies regarding height and employment. I am at a disadvantage at finding a mate because of my height. So what? I am obligated to make the most of what God DID give me and he has given me much, thank God. I have compassion for the Jewish homosexual, but I can't give to him my seal of approval to act on his homosexuality. He has a choice to act in accordance with the Torah or not. I am not willing to say that this is unfair. It is what it is.

[OMG]

Posted by: Chaim Levin (Dovid in the article) | June 20, 2011 at 06:15 PM

Thank you for your strength, your willingness to speak up is commendable. I only hope that your work pays dividends. I know society is rapidly changing and in our lifetime, we will see the acceptance of gay marriage. As for the orthodox community, regrettably, their foundations like other religious denominations are based on exclusion not inclusion. Therefore, I don’t see any major changes.

[OMG]

Deremes
Not for one second can you fool me, your description as “Miskav Zuchor'niks” is more of a derogatory description, and the of “'niks” which is a sneering remark.

[Kish Mich]

If I struggle all day wanting a cheeseburger, kosher delight is not a healthy outlet for relieving my pain. I have to live with that pain. Anyone smitten with the fayg virus has exactly the same problem. And yes, if queer yitzy believes the only place for his weewee is yenem's poop chute, and he wants to live a torah life, then he is condemned to a life of never fulfilling that urge. Just like I can't have my bacon cheeseburger.

But beyond that, if faygotry is ok, then why can't I act on my love for Rover, my collie? Why draw the line at guy on guy when I love my dog so much that I have the aching need that pains me to the core to show my love to Rover by giving him the high hard one. True love, true doggy style. So what if the Torah says its a sin, I love Rover and need a good shtuppy with him so I can express that. Who says drawing the libe at cornholing is fair to all the animal lovers out there?

[Aleksandr Sigalov]

i'm not confusing anything. the position of the the written torah does just fine in its misogyny without the help of the oral law

APC, you clearly confising things. You cannot even see the difference between mysogyny and misogyny.

One thing is when husband turns his wife into a slave, and completely different thing is when husband permitting his wife to do what she wants without measure, control, which eventually results in her taking over the family.

Are you familiar with the expression "henpecked husband"?

Like I said before, it is clear that it is difficult to you to grasp the concept presented in the original text.

And just so you know, it was very difficult for me too and it took a lot of time and study.

[Shmarya]

If I struggle all day wanting a cheeseburger, kosher delight is not a healthy outlet for relieving my pain. I have to live with that pain. Anyone smitten with the fayg virus has exactly the same problem. And yes, if queer yitzy believes the only place for his weewee is yenem's poop chute, and he wants to live a torah life, then he is condemned to a life of never fulfilling that urge. Just like I can't have my bacon cheeseburger.

But beyond that, if faygotry is ok, then why can't I act on my love for Rover, my collie? Why draw the line at guy on guy when I love my dog so much that I have the aching need that pains me to the core to show my love to Rover by giving him the high hard one. True love, true doggy style. So what if the Torah says its a sin, I love Rover and need a good shtuppy with him so I can express that. Who says drawing the libe at cornholing is fair to all the animal lovers out there?

Posted by: Kish Mich | June 21, 2011 at 12:03 AM

You know someone has learned 'logic' from the Avigdor Miller haredi school of ethics and logic when they make this moronic play.

Process:

1. The dog cannot consent. Neither can a child or a developmentally disabled person. But two adult men can consent.

2. To compare your desire for a cheeseburger with a human being's desire for love, sex and companionship is bizarre and very foolish.

Halakha recognizes the human sexual urge as an extremely strong force. It says that if that force did not exist, humankind would not exist, because their would be no procreation.

What that clearly means is that humans would not have heterosexual sex unless the desire is overwhelming, because the consequences of sex are so drastic: children that need to be cared for, fed, clothed, etc., etc.

To say that someone who lacks a sex drive for the opposite sex, but who possesses that same strong sex drive for the same sex must somehow make themselves heterosexual or be celibate is insane when halakha itself recognizes that humans lack the power to have complete mastery over their sex drives.

To recap: consenting adults can by definition consent. The other categories of people (or species) you mention lack the ability to consent. And humans cannot have complete mastery over their sex drives.

Yet you are basing you 'logic' on the assumptions that humans can completely control their sex drives, can live a life of loneliness with ease and choose to be homosexual.

Every one of those assumptions are false.

3. In conclusion, you and I cannot even begin to imagine how difficult it must be to be attracted only to men while living in a society that completely forbids homosexuality.

Yet in your arrogance you presume to know more than medical experts, scientists and psychologists, and you act on that arrogance in the most offensive of ways.

According to halakha, the urge to have an endless stream of stinking shit come out of your mouth and your keyboard is something human beings have the power to completely control. But you don't control yours at all.

Perhaps you might want to start controlling your own mouth and your own keyboard before you even begin to think about denigrating consenting adults who may be breaking halakha because of the way God created them – or because of the way man has misunderstood and misrepresented halakha.

Is that clear?

[just saying]

What's with all the YU bashing?

[Dave]

Itchiemayer @10:30 p.m.
Very well said. I agree with you 100%, even though I am not Orthodox, just one of the silent majority of non-Orthodox Jews who agree with you, but can't protest too loudly because our leadership has been taken over by the politically correct crowd.

[Jeff]

I agree with you 100%, even though I am not Orthodox, just one of the silent majority of non-Orthodox Jews who agree with you, but can't protest too loudly because our leadership has been taken over by the politically correct crowd.

Posted by: Dave | June 21, 2011 at 06:30 AM

In this case, politically correct crowd = people who have a fucking brain.

[Dave]

Jeff, you can insult me all you want, I couldn't care less.
However, you cannot force me to agree with you.

[masortiman]

shmarya, I agree with your 12:59

To me the truth of what you say, limits our halachic responses. IF we still believe in the absolute bindingness of Leviticus as traditionally interpreted, we must maintain the existing halacha, but MUST do so with compassion, and with support for at least liberalization of secular law (the Roth position). The other alternatives are to see our way to a reinterpretation (Dorff, or the CJLS rejected position of Artson) or to limit the application of halacha in matters such as this (the Tucker position, if I do not misread it)

None of the positions is perfect, to someone who cares for both compassion and the continuity of halacha - but they DO represent a genuine, Jewish, struggle.

[Jeff]

Jeff, you can insult me all you want, I couldn't care less.
However, you cannot force me to agree with you.

Posted by: Dave | June 21, 2011 at 08:11 AM

Not insulting you; insulting the dinosaurs. I just think you're wrong.

Well, maybe I was insulting you a little bit.

[itchiemayer]

I don't understand why many here feel the need to curse when giving their opinion on something and to demonize those with different opinions. It compromises the argument, and surely doesn't strengthen it.

Jeff's comment, for example, at 7:50 AM did not add one iota to this conversation.

[masortiman]

"I agree with you 100%, even though I am not Orthodox, just one of the silent majority of non-Orthodox Jews who agree with you, but can't protest too loudly because our leadership has been taken over by the politically correct crowd."

I am pretty certain that the overwhelming majority of non-O jews does not agree - certainly the under 40 crowd does not.

[Dave]

Masortiman, do you sincerely think the majority of non-O Jews are really going to tell the interviewer what they think? Especially in today's cultural climate which is very pro-homosexual.
If you sincerely think that, ask the following to any non-Ortho Jew (or even Ortho Jew):
Q: If you were totally exempt from any form of reprisal by anyone for answering the following questions honestly, based on your opinion and Torah sources, please answer the following questions:
In the view of Torah does Christianity constitute idolatry? What about Islam? What about Buddhism? What about Hinduism?

[Dave]

Itchie, thanks.
Cursing is the last refuge of someone who has run out of arguments, logical or otherwise.

[masortiman]

"Masortiman, do you sincerely think the majority of non-O Jews are really going to tell the interviewer what they think?"

Im not talking about surveys, Im talking about the people I know in shul, my family and our friends, my kid and her friends. I suspect EVERY Conservative Jew under 30 that we know supports gay ordination/jewish commitment ceremonies, and a probably over half of those between 30 and 50. If a majority of all Conserv Jews dont, its only because so many of us are over 65. I am also pretty sure that Reform, Recon, and unaffiliated/justjewish are more left than Conserv Jews are on this.

[masortiman]

"If you sincerely think that, ask the following to any non-Ortho Jew (or even Ortho Jew):
Q: If you were totally exempt from any form of reprisal by anyone for answering the following questions honestly, based on your opinion and Torah sources, please answer the following questions:
In the view of Torah does Christianity constitute idolatry? What about Islam? What about Buddhism? What about Hinduism?"

I dont know what youre getting at. The majority of Conserv Jews do not keep kosher, hence are not particularly interested in the kashrut status of wine, etc, hence are not aware of what the rabbinic sources on this say. They would scratch their heads mostly. Most who DO keep kosher either A. Are happy R Dorf said one could drink wine made by christians, and havent read the tshuva or B. are machmir and drink only wine with a hechsher anyway

[Kish Mich]

Shmarya, I will admit I cannot fathom how a dude can in any way want to bang another dude. My message to so misguided a fool is start banging broads, the vagina is highly underrated in ortho circles. I don't care how gay a guy thinks he is, you get Brooke Burke to sit on his face and he is hetero in about 4 seconds.

[Gevezener Chusid]

shows you what a PhD from yeshiva university is worth

[itchiemayer]

Gevezener - In what way?

[Deremes]

Posted by: the usual chaim | June 20, 2011 at 08:23 PM

I don't agree at all with the crude and hurtful comments that are being made in here.
But guess what:comments like these and worse are being made on every thread on FM on another group of people and they are welcomed with open arms. Guess to which group im referring? Orthodox Jews in general.

[Deremes]

My comment are ONLY for anyone Orthodox.

It says in the Talmud “Ain Hakadosh Baruch Hu ba bitrunya im bree'yotav.” G-d does not come in a storm with his creatures – Hashem does not ask us to do something that we are not capable of doing.

There are many things that says in the Torah and down the line to the Shulchan Aruch that is hard to follow. It aint easy to be Jewish we know that for a long time. The nations of the world didn't want to accept the Torah because its tough to follow. But if we are told to do or not to do something that means that yes we can do it if there is a will.

The inner struggling that they are going through must be painful. But how did someone fifty years ago who had the urge to be with another man go through it?(sorry,today its called "not being attracted to a woman). They got married as many do these days had kids and maybe they had/have some flings with other men.So these days they came up with a new thing that its called "living a lie"

For those who didn't understand until now why should the Orthodox Jewish community care at all if someone who is running for office is an outspoken advocate for gay rights and gay marriage if it doesn't affect the Jewish community,there you go folks. Its now up to that its a discussion among mo if we should embrace them or not.
So first its gay rights in general then its an open talk about Orthodox gay come ten twenty years from now people will request they would love to get married with a cow,dog any animal. Its sick out there and getting sicker.

[OMG]

Posted by: Deremes | June 21, 2011 at 01:18 PM

Up to the last sentence, everything you wrote was respectable and understood even if I don’t agree with your view. However, than you just couldn’t resist and threw in a few crazy outlandish examples which nullifies your total argument. What a shame.

[Deremes]

Well,OMG,this how things usually go step by step.It sounds stupid to you but if you try to understand my point,you will get it.

[Simon]

Deremes, 1:18pm.

"The inner struggling that they are going through must be painful. But how did someone fifty years ago who had the urge to be with another man go through it?(sorry,today its called "not being attracted to a woman). They got married as many do these days had kids and maybe they had/have some flings with other men.So these days they came up with a new thing that its called "living a lie" "

Fine. Tell gay men to marry women and have flings. Then when he ends up with HIV, and gives it to her, and their kids are born HIV+, I suppose everyone can just apply for welfare to pay for meds that cost upwards of $1,000/month. Or when he is caught with another guy and it becomes public, she divorces him, their kids can't find good marriages, and the entire family is ruined. You should really educate yourself.

"So first its gay rights in general then its an open talk about Orthodox gay come ten twenty years from now people will request they would love to get married with a cow,dog any animal. Its sick out there and getting sicker."

One could have said the same thing about interracial marriage. You show absolutely no evidence for your claims.

[Shmarya]

I don't care how gay a guy thinks he is, you get Brooke Burke to sit on his face and he is hetero in about 4 seconds.

Posted by: Kish Mich | June 21, 2011 at 11:41 AM

That would be news to tens of thousands of doctors, psychiatrists, medical researchers and millions of homosexuals.

It doesn't work.

[Shmarya]

So first its gay rights in general then its an open talk about Orthodox gay come ten twenty years from now people will request they would love to get married with a cow,dog any animal. Its sick out there and getting sicker.

Posted by: Deremes | June 21, 2011 at 01:18 PM

The dog cannot consent. Neither can a child or a developmentally disabled person. But two adult men can consent.

You assume bestiality and homosexuality are closely linked, neighboring steps on a ladder, so to speak, because the Torah forbids both.

But ion that ladder is breaking Shabbos and eating seafood. Both are on par with homosexuality, but you do not mention them, even though the Torah links them all by using the word toeivah.

My point is that in my experience, the vast majority of haredim do not know the Torah they claim to be defending.

And their 'logic,' like your 'logic,' doesn't hold up.

[Deremes]

Posted by: Simon | June 21, 2011 at 02:50 PM

That's why i started of by saying that "My comment are ONLY for anyone Orthodox." And read also what i wrote at the start.

[Deremes]

Posted by: Shmarya | June 21, 2011 at 03:04 PM

I don't get it.
Are you claiming that the Torah doesn't say toeivah on gay sex?
Or are you saying that the word toeivah is being said other sins too? and if this is the case whats your point?

[Deremes]

++The dog cannot consent. Neither can a child or a developmentally disabled person. But two adult men can consent.

You assume bestiality and homosexuality are closely linked, neighboring steps on a ladder, so to speak, because the Torah forbids both.++

Nope that wasn't my point.

In reality its all about sex and sex nothing more. Now its two men who are asking to be accepted or for society to look up at them and sooner or later it will be another kind of sex that men will want to flaunt to the public.

[Shmarya]

In reality its all about sex and sex nothing more. Now its two men who are asking to be accepted or for society to look up at them and sooner or later it will be another kind of sex that men will want to flaunt to the public.

Posted by: Deremes | June 21, 2011 at 03:15 PM

So you aren't basing yourself on the Torah.

So, again, a dog cannot consent. Neither can a child or a developmentally disabled person.

Anyone who has sex with an animal, a child or a seriously developmentally disabled person (or a seriously senile person) has committed rape.