Dutch Bill Banning Un-Stunned Ritual Slaughter Passes Parliament

The bill requires all animals to be stunned before slaughter, even if that slaughter is done following religious dictates that ban stunning.

Editied at 11:18 pm CDT.

The bill still has to pass the Dutch senate  to become law.

European shechita advocates tried to use a quote from Dr. Temple Grandin to support the idea that shechita is humane and that animals killed this way do not suffer.

Indeed, they brought Joe Regenstein, a close associate of Grandin's and the head of Cornell University's Kosher and Halal Food Science program to Holland to work on blocking the ban.

But Grandin holds that "good" shechita – and by that she means shechita with proper animal handling and proper handling by the shochet that is graded excellent in an audit done by Grandin oe by approved auditors – is humane and as good as any other type of slaughter.

But no European slaughterhouse doing ritual slaughter is ranked as excellent by Grandin – meaning no Jewish ritual slaughter in Europe is as good a pre-stunned slaughter.

I confirmed this with Regenstein last week.

And this means Jewish pro-shechita advocates are misrepresenting Grandin's position – or lying.

Chief among those who are lying is Shechita UK's Shimon Cohen and the Conference of European Rabbis. The Chabad rabbinic group, the Rabbinical Council of Europe, tends to state shechita is humane but approaches the issue primarily as one of antisemitism.

The point is that Europe's rabbis and pro-shechita activists relied primarily on screaming antisemitism and misusing Grandin to make their case, rather than cleaning up the problems at their slaughterhouses – or pointing out where those problems are out of their control and lie with the slaughterhouse management.

I told Regenstein that the only thing that would stop these people from lying and force them to clean up shechita would be a ban.

He disagreed, not because that contention is wrong, but because he believes the ban is based on anti-Muslim and anti-Jewish sentiment, rather than animal welfare.

The point is, rabbis and Orthodox activists have again chosen to play the antisemitism card rather than fixing real problems.

In this case, those real problems for the most part can be easily and inexpensively fixed.

That's what Dutch Jewish lay leaders tried to do. But they waited too long.

That people like Shechita UK's Cohen chose not to be honest may turn out to hurt many Jews.

And those Jews should know who to blame, and it isn't the antisemites Cohen and his ilk think are lurking around every corner.

Comments

[moshe]

Orthodox rabbis lying and screaming anti-semitism. What a novel concept.

[jancsipista]

the law of the land shall be adheered to and all those screaming rabbis should be stuned themselfs.

[Robert Wisler]

I don't quite understand the implications. Are the kosher/hallal slaughtering facilities in the Netherlands sub-par (as far as humane treatment of the animals) because their owners are unconcerned about humane slaughter or is it just an impossible-to-achieve goal to have a "humane-slaughter" facility? Could you explain Shmarya?

[masortiman]

will the law allow import of kosher meat from the USA that does use Grandin designed procedures? Does it effect imported meat in general, or does it only regulate slaughter that occurs IN the Netherlands?

[masortiman]

pardon - imported meat will be allowed

"Uca Octay of Rotterdam's Islamic University said: "We will have to import halal meat from neighboring countries or find another way to meet the needs of the Muslim population."

[Teddy]

Well written Shmarya!

Robert, to a large degree this is not about Jews, back in the 19th century the largest part of the Dutch ruminant meat industry was in Jewish hands, Jewish populations often started with a butcher, on the lifestock market in Winschoten ALL traders spoke Yiddisch, the Jews stayed big in this field but lost dominance, back in 1919 (!) everybody who wasn't Jewish had to stun before slaughter. Then came that damned corporal calling himself "Tour Guide". Not only did this reduce the number of Jews working in the meat industry, but kosher meat became something for Jews, not the kind of meat Jewish butchers sold to everybody, shechita was in serious decline, there have been some nasty incidents, but though rare, Shechita was fully legal. To understand HOW RARE I will describe that an introduction of the prohibition will mean that Moshe the Shochet will have to find something else to do ON MONDAY. ONE Shochet, only active on Monday, (he shechts on other days in Belgium). Shechita is already almost extinct in the Netherlands, all the difference it will make is that the last shochet will have to find something else to do on Monday... It is too small now for big research and stuff. The big industry, killing millions of animals, that is all done by and for Muslims.

(Have to stop now, on account of a thunderstorm)

[David Kirzner]

i dont get it. what is the halachic problem with stunning?

[Bas Melech]

Can somebody explain the problem at the Dutch Bait Hashechita in Amsterdam? It is a small facility and schects about 2 dozen animals per week, if that. The conditions are probably far better than US slaughter houses where the shochet has to rush. Has anybody ever visited or filmed the Dutch facility? Are the accusations based on fact?

Who really cares about banning this unless they are anti-Jewish?

[mordecai]

The rabbis tell us that it is "work" on shabbos to lift a wallet but walking 4 miles up a hill to go to shul is not "work." I do not buy this sophistry. One cannot drive because this is a kin to kindling a fire but riding an electric moped though no fire is kindled is still forbidden. I am not convinced by rabbinic reasoning in many areas.

Anywhere where do the kosher slaughtering rules come from? Oh let me guess -- the same guys who tell me to walk up a mountain road in 90 degree heat so as not to "work"

[ah-pee-chorus]

some rabbi with a pair of balls better step up really soon with a halachic ruling permitting stunning. it really wouldnt be hard to come up with and the clock is ticking. before long non-stun will be banned in many places.
i predict this will happen when enough of the EU bans it.

[ah-pee-chorus]

while i completely agree with the ban on humanitarian grounds, i'm sure the ban is also influenced by whats going on in holland. 20 or 30 years ago the policy might have been to show acceptance for different religions and cultures. but now that the dutch have seen the beginning of the islamification of their country, they have little desire to extend those courtesies and might even relish the opportunity to make a stand against the muslims. after seeing theo van gogh murdered for making a film, populist pols like geert wilders get much support.
refusing to accomodate halal slaughter makes a strong statement that they do not wish to lose their dutch values at the altar of multiculturalism, particularly the koranic version.

[seymour]

Anywhere where do the kosher slaughtering rules come from? Oh let me guess -- the same guys who tell me to walk up a mountain road in 90 degree heat so as not to "work"

Posted by: mordecai | June 28, 2011 at 06:00 PM

THE OLD ELEVATOR question

why can I walk 19 flights but not press button

[seymour]

what is the issue with stunning first?

[Bubba Metzia]

While most countries that have banned shechita has done so as a result of anti-Semitic sentiments, this situation in the Netherlands seems to be largely as a result of anti-Islamic sentiments and the impact on Jews is just collateral damage. Regardless, that still in no way justifies the actions by the Dutch parliament and should still be strongly opposed, but not everything is always about us.

[Adam Neira]

The Dutch legislators and scientists must be able to argue a rational point why their preferred method of slaughter via stunning first is more enlightened. They will not be able to so there must be other reasons for this campaign.

[ah-pee-chorus]

why their preferred method of slaughter via stunning first is more enlightened. They will not be able to so

its plainly evident that with stunning the time the animal is in pain and conscious distress is lessened. that should be all they need and i hope it passes.

[phony messiah]

It's OK to cook the lobster buy dropping it into hot water ALIVE, yes ALIVE - no stunning.
It is also OK to trim parts of the clams body (or is it mussels) alive.

But to kill livestock the quickest way known to man is not humane! Tell it to the marines!

[mordecai]

Anywhere where do the kosher slaughtering rules come from? Oh let me guess -- the same guys who tell me to walk up a mountain road in 90 degree heat so as not to "work"

Posted by: mordecai | June 28, 2011 at 06:00 PM

THE OLD ELEVATOR question

why can I walk 19 flights but not press button

Posted by: seymour | June 28, 2011 at 08:03 PM

FOR THAT MATTER SEYMOUR WHY CAN'T I PRESS A BUTTON. I ASSUME YOU HAVE THE ANSWER

[Adam Neira]

To APC,

You are wrong. I have witnessed slaughter of animals on several occasions. My father took me to an abattoir in Victoria in the late 1970's and I lived in a village with my Australian girlfriend in Danau Toba, Sumatra for two months in late 1998. From what I could tell the throat cutting method was effective and the animal's death was virtually instantaneous. The men who did the job were not trained in schechita as they were not Jews, but even so the operation seemed pretty clean and effective to my untrained eye. Obviously a shochet has great training backed up by 3,000 years of tradition. I will trust the wisdom and expertise of a shochet over the oh so clever politicians, save the gay whale lobbyists and internet activists any day. This issue is controversial but quite boring actually. It is not rocket science. Many parliamentary democracies waste so much time and money it isn’t funny. The Dutch Senate just prove the point further.

[mordecai]

"seemed clean" to the "untrained eye." OK Adam this is just speculation by your own admission. You are far from an expert by your own admission. You also throw in some bigoted homophobia about "gay whale lobbyists." I guess that serves to make you more credible, balanced and fair minded. I don't think so.

Since G-d really wanted us to be vegetarians (read scripture, it is right up in the front in Genesis)let's just go back to G-d's mandated diet. Just because we got thrown out of Eden does not mean we should continue making our holy bodies the cemetery for animals because it "tastes good." G-d forbid you should go without your Pastrami sandwich.

[Adam Neira]

To mordecai,

(a) I have never stated I was an expert on shechita but I always defer to experts in a given field. You have to trust people at the end of the day. Micromanaging every small detail of one’s life and never heeding the counsel of others is a sad way to live. e.g. I might be able to give the rough outlines of the house I want to build but I will leave the details up to a good architect.

(b) The word "homophobia" is new to the English lexicon. It didn't exist before the mid 60's. Another example of the bastardisation of language. In the beautiful 1940's song "It might as well be spring" a line goes "I feel so gay in a melancholy way...". The original and quite gentle meaning of the word was unlike the twisted, dark inference of today. Certain groups all throughout history have appropriated language for their own nefarious ends.

(c) Genesis makes it quite clear that G-d gave humankind dominion over the flora, fauna and minerals of Planet Earth. Eating meat is fine. The average height of the Japanese has grown three inches since 1945 mainly due to an increase in the consumption of meat as a result of improved economic conditions.

(d) To talk about what the meaning of "the fall" from the original Eden and what the Messianic State of Ganeden implies is a discussion for another day.

(e) I think I have had pastrami maybe three times. Not my favourite meat.

[ah-pee-chorus]

there are videos for all to see which show animals being slaughtered without stunning via a shochet that are in severe distress while conscious for many seconds. cows thrashing about, screaming, trying to stand while slipping in its own blood. stunning would eliminate this unnecessary pain.

[Shmarya]

It's OK to cook the lobster buy dropping it into hot water ALIVE, yes ALIVE - no stunning.
It is also OK to trim parts of the clams body (or is it mussels) alive.

But to kill livestock the quickest way known to man is not humane! Tell it to the marines!

Posted by: phony messiah | June 28, 2011 at 09:12 PM

Shechita is not the fastest way to kill an animal.

[sarah]

Shmarya, I have a question for you: What is your goal – what are you trying to achieve by constantly bashing shchito and trying to find ways to morally support the people – international – why are you making every effort to ban religious Jews to practice shchito the way it is required and been done for thousands of years?

What is your problem with torah observing Jews? What is your problem with halachic shchito? does the site of people who can be easily identified as Jews – based on their outward appearance cause you to cringe?

[sarah]

“Shechita is not the fastest way to kill an animal.”

Shmarya, contrary to what many believe, Jews don’t practice shchito because it’s the least painful way to prepare an animal for human consumption, and not because it the fastest way to kill an animal.

The reason Jews only eat meat that was killed via halachic shchito is: this is the requirement given to us by God at Sinai! This is the only reason!

Why does shchito bother you so very much?

[Shmarya]

Ah, the Chabad shoteh returns.

Process: I worked in shechita.

I know the business far better than you do.

What bothers me about shechita is that animals suffer unnecessarily due to bad animal handling and bad shechita – Agriprocessors is a good exampel of that.

Those problems can be easily and cheaply fixed without violating any of the halakhot of shechita – but most often they are not fixed because rabbis choose not to fix them.

Another thing that bothers me about shechita is that ignoramuses like you defend it ignorantly.

Here's a little tip for your Chabad-addled brain:

The Ba'al Shem Tov and his circle adopted a new shechita knife made of hardened steel – the knife that is almost universally used today.

The previous knife was not as sharp.

Many opponents of hasidism opposed the new knife, primarily because hasidim used it.

The Besht and his circle argued that we have an obligation to remove as much suffering as possible from the animal. They argued that making shechita as humane as possible was our religious duty. And that, they said, is why they used the new knife.

And now ignorant Chabadniks, trying to protect a thief and torturer named Sholom Rubashkin, trample on the legacy of the founder of the movement they now claim to lead.

Got that?

[Teddy]

Sarah, please read the pages under "pages",
"About Me" would be a good starter.

Sarah, would you be so good to point out WHERE in the Torah God put that requirement?

[sarah]

Please read my last comment on this thread (Posted by: sarah | June 29, 2011 at 12:28 AM_:
http://failedmessiah.typepad.com/failed_messiahcom/2011/06/austrailia-moves-toward-banning-ritual-slaughter-123.html#comments
it is quite clear that Shmarya fabricates “facts” about torah and halacha. He makes all types of statements such as “Process: I worked in shechita. I know the business far better than you do”.. is spoke to many shochatim. Is spoke to many rabbanim.

Shmarya, time to be honest and straight forward. You have no idea about halacha! You always claim to know, and make fun of those who actually leaned and know.

Process this: when it comes to halacha – you have no idea.

Lets see if this post will remain…

[sarah]

Dear Teddy,

Deuteronomy - Chapter 12
21. “…you may slaughter of your cattle and of your sheep, which the Lord has given you, as I have commanded you…”

Rashi: “we have thus learned that there is a commandment about slaughtering, show one should slaughter. These are the laws of slaughtering that were told to Moses at Sinai”.

Meaning, God taught the laws to Moses and told him to transmit them to the Israelites orally, as part of the Oral Torah, but no to be written down as part of Scripture (the Written Torah).

[sarah]

“The Ba'al Shem Tov and his circle adopted a new shechita knife made of hardened steel – the knife that is almost universally used today.

The previous knife was not as sharp.
Many opponents of hasidism opposed the new knife, primarily because hasidim used it.
The Besht and his circle argued that we have an obligation to remove as much suffering as possible from the animal.“

Again, these statements are untrue. It was the founder of Chaabad Rabbi Shneur Zalman of Liadi who introduced it. The reason was not as you state.

The reason: the old knives could be made either extremely smooth or extremely sharp. But not both. The new type introduced by Rabbi Shneur Zalman of Liadi was designed to be able to achieve both, thereby making it the most desirable according to halacha. Nothing to do with the reasons you give. Please study the facts!

[Shmarya]

Again, these statements are untrue. It was the founder of Chaabad Rabbi Shneur Zalman of Liadi who introduced it. The reason was not as you state.

The reason: the old knives could be made either extremely smooth or extremely sharp. But not both. The new type introduced by Rabbi Shneur Zalman of Liadi was designed to be able to achieve both, thereby making it the most desirable according to halacha. Nothing to do with the reasons you give. Please study the facts!

Posted by: sarah | June 29, 2011 at 01:03 AM

Moron.

The Brody cherem against hasidim was published in 1772. It bans the new knife and other things.

The new knife had already been in use for well over a decade.

It was introduced by the Ba'al Shem Tov.

In 1772, Menachem Mendel of Vitebsk was still the leader of the hasidim in White Russia.

And you are both an ignoramus and a fool.

[yidandahalf]

In any speaking about clams' distress and boiling lobsters is using the 2 wrongs make a right pseudologic to try and win an arguement.

Bringing Rashi and other religous figures into the fray is at best a weak straw man tactic. The issue is not halacha, mesorah, or any sort of creative mumbo jumbo.

THE ISSUE IS INHUMANE SLAUGHTER. And the only point at which religion enters into the matter is the interpretation of Church and State Legislation.

The current outcry against religious slaughter has been fueled in no small part by the prosecution of Sholem Mordecai Rubash-in and the scrutiny that Ka$h-R-u$ has come under. This blog has played no small part in this. Shmarya Rosenbergd and the faithful commentors here have contributed to this cause unceasingly.

Therefore I will repeat what I have so often stated in the past since 2007. This issue will not go away, die on the vine, peter out, or cease and desist. Religious slaughter as practiced today will become untenable, unprofitable, and illegal.

Jews constantly harp on anti-semitism. The world's heart must be changed to one of accepting and appreciating Jews. This is blind and absurd. Anti-semitism will never go away until we clean up our own house. A good way to start is ceasing to cut up live, suffering animals and stamping everything that can be consumed with Ka$h-R-u$ labels the gentile world must fund. To those reading this and those who have recently posted about the neo-nazi faction and organized anti-semitism, your fears and predictions are well founded. These folks will indeed take up the battle cry if we do not do it first.

[yidandahalf]

To those of you who read the above and do not agree with it: you all would be the first ones to jump on those trains when the SS called out "All aboard for your work-vacation camps for Jews". Yes, indeed, you assholes would have bought the whole spiel and burned up.

[Barry]

There is a consensus amongst European veterinarians that shechita is inhumane (or at least very likely to be inhumane and a risk not worth taking). That consensus is as strong as that amongst European geologists that the world is more than 6,000 years old. If the European Kashrus authorities think they can somehow persuade the veterinarians that they are mistaken, then they are living in fantasy land.

To argue that the veterinarians findings are motivated by antisemitism is as nonsensical as arguing that geologists are similarly motivated when they declare the worlds to be billions of years old.

Europeans generally reject the argument that putting a position in contradiction or opposition to the Torah or Halacha must be motivated by antisemitism.

The decision as to whether shechita is to be allowed is not one made by veterinarians but by politicians. However in todays world no politician would dare act in opposition to scientific consensus if he did not want to be considered eccentric.

Prohibition of slaughter of fully conscientious animals in Europe is inevitable. It is a waste of effort to fight the inevitable

[yidandahalf]

An excellent post, Barry.

[sage]

Excellent posts, Y&1/2 and Barry.

I have some thoughts on this issue.

They are mine alone, and may not reflect the thinking of anyone else who posts here.

1. G-d gave Moses oral instructions on how animals were to be slaughtered for human consumption.

2. Whatever these were, they proscribed proceedures, that minimized animal suffering, given the best techniques available at that time.

3. G-d did not put these techniques down in writing, because, IMHO, He knew that animal handling technology would be improving in the future and that it would be up to the Jewish People to keep Shechita proceedures up-to-date, to always minimize animal suffering.

4. If G-d HAD put the Shechita proceedures, at the time of Moses, in writing, it would have locked these in place forever. That would have been a mistake on His part.

5. G-d, however, makes no mistakes.

[Bas Melech]

Shmarya,
You accuse the Dutch Beit HaShechita of have "problems" that can be fixed? Please give examples. On whom do you base this opinion? On somebody who was actually there and witnessed something wrong? on assumptions?

The facility is shechts very few animals a week.

Please support your statements.

[masortiman]

Shmarya

Does UTJ follow the Dorff/Roth tshuva on shackling and hoisting? (the only Jewish tshuva presented in full on Ms Grandin's site - whether thats only because its in English, I do not know) I looked on their site, but it wasn't clear to me.

[Shmarya]

Shmarya,
You accuse the Dutch Beit HaShechita of have "problems" that can be fixed? Please give examples. On whom do you base this opinion? On somebody who was actually there and witnessed something wrong? on assumptions?

The facility is shechts very few animals a week.

Please support your statements.

Posted by: Bas Melech | June 29, 2011 at 09:49 AM

Please.

Try re-reading my post. Go slowly if you need to and repeat if necessary.

[masortiman]

This is certainly not about antisemitism. There is much more hostility to muslims in the netherlands, and in most of europe, than there is hatred of jews (well at least by non-muslims). While the animal rights people are probably motivated by their beliefs relative to animals, the larger societal context seems to be the european reaction to Islam. Its hard to make sense of a ban like this (while allowing, say, hunting) otherwise.

That is not at all to disagree with shmarya and other posters arguing for more humane shechita.

[Bas Melech]

Shmarya,
I am not trying to be chutzpadik. I just want an understanding, not generalities. Evidently, Regenstein must have visited the Beit HaShechita to have knowledge of what is wrong. Could you please give an example?

Your answer will help me understand the situation better and be able to explain the problem to others. The wrongdoings probably apply to other facilities in the world. Most of us are unfamiliar with the laws and procedures. We can only rely on our rabbis. This is an opportunity to educate us. Thanks

[Shmarya]

In general, it has to do with how the animals are handled pre-and post shechita, and how fast the shochet makes his cut.

[yidandahalf]

All Bas Melech need do is watch the PETA videos and the more recent ones done in Indonesia which sparked the Australian issues. Youtube carries all of them to the best of my knowledge. That is all one need do to understand the issue. That and the profits which are the bottom line of religious ritual slaughter. There is nothing more to it
WATCH THE VIDEOS my friends. Something lower case sarah has yet to do.

[Barry]

Masortiman, you cannot compare hunting of wild animals to the slaughtering of farm animals.

Farm animals are specifically bred to benefit society. If they suffer unnecessarily, then that suffering can be blamed on society since these animals would otherwise not have existed. It is for that reason that society has a duty to ensure that domestic animals do not suffer unnecessarily. Veterinarians will tell you that slaughter without stunning is unnecessary. Likewise if I choose to keep chickens then I have a responsibility to protect them from foxes. The same goes for laboratory animals

This is in contrast to wild animals. The existence of wild animals cannot be traced to their being deliberately bred. I have no moral duty to protect a hare from been killed by a fox. Likewise if I choose to shoot a hare I can argue that if anything I have done the hare a favor since in general wild animals have a far worse death than being shot.

The goyim are not stupid. They know full well that by allowing kosher meat to be imported from Belgium and Israel, they cannot be accused of preventing Jews from eating kosher meat. They also know full well that the reason European rabbis do not wish to have meat brought in from Israel is because local rabbinates wish to have a local source of income from local meat sales. It is one thing to allow turn a blind eye to possible inhumane slaughter for matters of religious freedom. It is quite another to turn a blind eye for matters of economic benefit.

Someone should tell the London Board of Shechita to remove the following from their website before the goyim read it:-

"With the continued influx of observant Jewish immigrants from the Continent during the 20th Century, and the growth of an Anglo-Jewish community firmly established throughout the United Kingdom, shechita boards sprang up in the provinces. But unlike the London Board, all evolved in the traditional way to serve the dual purpose of protecting local supplies and thereby also provide additional income to maintain the surrounding communal infrastructure. By far the largest organisation of its kind in the UK, the London Board even owned and operated abattoirs and wholesale outlets, right up until the latter half of the 20th Century.

For students of Halacha - Jewish Law in practice - it is interesting to note that the concept of Shechitat Chutz - prevention of cheap imports of meat - was developed to protect local sources of supply and, more importantly, revenue, as was the case with these small shechita boards. The London Board does not fully enjoy the shelter of this law since it's revenue does not fund the community, but its Beth Din - the court of the Board's Rabbinical Authority - will act to ensure long-term continuity of supply, so that both the price and availability of meat supplies are not adversely threatened by unfair competition"

They explicitly state that protecting revenue is their most important concern!!
Jesus H Christ! They must think the goyim are idiots!

[sage]

Great post, again, my friend.

And while Bas Melech is at it, he can read the "PETA Pearl Harbor File" on Rubashkin, Lewin, the OU, KAJ and others, which will show him how corrupt the whole Ka$hru$ Criminal enterprises are.

[Ya Way No Way]

It is a great day for secularism and rationality.

I hope the ban spreads throughout Europe as well as to the US and Canada.

Let those who want to keep antiquated rules live in their tribal home, Israel (within borders set by the UN that let them have that home.)

[Bas Melech]

Thank you all for your responses to my comments.
sarah, your contention that Shmarya and others do not like the idea that many Jews happily observe the commandments was a similar question I have. It appears that some commenters once observed the mitzvos until they discovered corruption by religious and lay leaders. They cannot separate love of HaShem and his Torah from people who distort Torah values.

Unfortunately, the frum world today is corrupt. The leaders are more interested in power, control, and manipulation. They are more interested in protecting their positions and images.

Just because an individual doesn't like or agree with others, it doesn't mean that everything they do is wrong. That's why I asked Shmarya for facts, examples. Also, I like others are new to this blog and need more information about topics.

I agree that the kashrus industry today is more about money and politics than actual kosher.

FYI there are people who watch there animal and chicken shechted to assure that it is done humanely.

[sage]

Your comment is very much appreciated by me and many others on this blog, who have been fighting, for years, against corruption in the Orthodox Jewish Leadership (If we can call it that) and the heretical concept, held by Chabad, that the Gentiles are the scum of the earth.

[sarah]

“…There is a consensus amongst European veterinarians that shechita is inhumane (or at least very likely to be inhumane and a risk not worth taking). That consensus is as strong as that amongst European geologists that the world is more than 6,000 years old. If the European Kashrus authorities think they can somehow persuade the veterinarians that they are mistaken, then they are living in fantasy land…”/

Barry, There were times when most cultured and educated “enlightened” people in Europe believed that most of mankind’s problem come from the Jew. And that the only hope for mankind’s survival is to subjugate and /or get rid of the Jews.

(no, I’m not calling you an anti semite. Just putting forth the arguments that the statement “There is a consensus amongst European…” was used many times to justify horrible treatment of Jews for thousands of years)…

[sarah]

“And you are both an ignoramus and a fool.”

Shmarya, you are making it a habit to concoct “new facts” with a straight face.

Fact: Sakinim Melutashim was instituted by the Baal Hatanya & Shulchan Aruch.

Evidence: click on this PDF link (below) and to pages 335 & 414 You will find the original Teshuva outlining the need for this type of knife. If you need help with translating the Hebrew, I will be happy to help (when I have time))

http://download.hebrewbooks.org/downloadhandler.ashx?req=15605

Please, if you disagree with me, back it up with facts and evidence.

[yidandahalf]

The issue is inhumane slaughter. Obfuscating it by Talmudic references and gentile methods are merely that, short sighted and futile obfuscation. As an argument your work is inherently weak and equally futile.

[Shmarya]

Please, if you disagree with me, back it up with facts and evidence.

Posted by: sarah | June 30, 2011 at 12:24 AM

1. 'Sarah' is actually levi, a Chabad troll.

2. Process: The Brody excommunication of 1772 banned the polished knife of hasidim. That is a FACT. It is well known and indisputable.

The Alter Rebbe started writing the Shulchan Aruch HaRav in 1771. It wasn't finished for many years, and it was first published in 1814.

In 1772, Menachem Mendel of Vitebsk was the rebbe of hasidim in White Russia, and the Alter Rebbe was one of those hasidim.

The polished knife of hasidim had been in wide use for a decade or more at the time of the Brody ban, but its original introduction goes back to the Ba'al Shem Tov.

The polished knife was not an invention of the Alter Rebbe and he did not popularize its use. By 1814, its use had already been widespread for 40 years.

Now run along.

You're mentally ill. You're a consistent liar and a cheat.

Go get the psychological help you so desperately need.

[Barry]

Sarah, whether or not a consensus has any relevance to a particular matter depends on who holds that consensus.

If I had stated that that the consensus against shechita was held by European poets, aromatherapists, Lutherans, bicyclists or nudists, then you would have a point.

However this consensus is held by veterinarians.

[masortiman]

"There is a consensus amongst European veterinarians that shechita is inhumane (or at least very likely to be inhumane and a risk not worth taking)."

What risk is worth taking is intrinsically an ethical issue, not a scientific one. It involves, among other things, judgements about the likelihood of humane shechita being instituted in Europe, the value of "religious freedom", the likely volume of kosher slaughter in europe.

[masortiman]

its like the difference between

"there is a consensus among climate scientists that manmade global warming is real"

and

"there is a consensus among climate scientists that cap and trade is a desirable policy"

The latter does not necessarily follow from the former, and the questions that need to be resolved to determine it, involve economists, political scientists, agronimists, public health experts,etc, etc rather more than climate scientists (once the climate scientists have made clear the likely impacts on warming of alternate emissions scenarios)

[Teddy]

A nice description of the situation can be read here:

http://religionresearch.org/martijn/2011/06/29/ritual-slaughter-in-the-netherlands-from-animal-to-ethical-meat/

[Joel]

This comment really belongs in the Torah Authorship post but it is somewhat relevant here. A while back I commented on some post that Shmarya seemingly adopted the phrase "let me be clear" from Obama. Yet here he frequently uses this "process" and "fact" lingo and style of writing. Its a little dopey if you ask me, but I'm no literary critic. Anyway, If I didn't know any better I would think that his posts might actually be from two different authors. But, a better explanation would be that its one author with 2 styles of writing.