Outrage Grows About Ritual Slaughter

Rabbi Mordechai Gutnick of Kosher Australia estimated up to 500 lambs a week were killed by kosher methods in Victoria. Calls to ban such practices were motivated in part by ignorance and anti-Semitism, he said. ''A ban would mean we would not be able to eat kosher meat. In our tradition the way the animal has to be killed is by quick cutting of the throat of the animal.'' Stunning could kill an animal before it bled out, in violation of Jewish tradition, he claimed. ''We make a concession for beef because cattle have a tendency to be much stronger and resilient. Sheep literally become unconscious the moment the knife is cut across their throat. We believe such killing without stunning does result in immediate, painless death."

Outrage grows on ritual killing
Peter Munro • The Age

THE head of the meat industry has joined animal welfare groups in opposing the religious slaughter of sheep while they are conscious, amid calls to ban the ''unnecessary and unconscionable'' practice in Australia.

At least 15 Australian abattoirs - including four in Victoria - have government approval to slit sheep's throats without stunning them for local and international halal (Muslim) and kosher (Jewish) markets.

A leading Jewish identity told The Sunday Age that about 500 sheep are killed by the kosher method in Victoria each week.

Studies into unstunned slaughter, including by the federal Department of Agriculture, have found the practice causes pain, distress, terror and panic in animals. Most sheep remained conscious for up to 20 seconds after their throats were cut.

One major abattoir, which had exported unstunned slaughtered sheep to the Middle East, said it stopped the practice due to animal welfare concerns.

Separately, the RSPCA and Animals Australia criticised the absence of mandatory stunning in the Gillard government's proposal to Indonesia last week outlining slaughter standards to reopen the live cattle export trade.

Australian Meat Industry Council chairman Terry Nolan said it was in the local industry's ''best interests to have the most humane treatment of animals''.

''I personally don't believe in unstunned slaughter. I kill animals for a living … I believe that they need to be processed in the most respectful way for the animals,'' he said.

Government-approved ritual slaughter of conscious sheep accounted for an ''extreme minority'' of animal deaths, representing less than 1 per cent of the meat industry locally, he said.

Australian standards require livestock be rendered unconscious and insensible to pain before slaughter. Limited exceptions for cattle - broadly accepted by Muslim and Jewish groups - permit stunning with a captive-bolt pistol immediately after the throat is cut.

But about 15 Australian abattoirs that service the domestic halal and kosher meat market reportedly have state government approval to slaughter sheep without stunning at any stage.

Four Victorian exporting abattoirs have a similar ''approved arrangement'' federally with the Australian Quarantine and Inspection Service.

''In permitting this practice, Australia meets its international obligations to provide for freedom of religious observance,'' a service spokesman said.

Rabbi Mordechai Gutnick of Kosher Australia estimated up to 500 lambs a week were killed by kosher methods in Victoria. Calls to ban such practices were motivated in part by ignorance and anti-Semitism, he said.

''A ban would mean we would not be able to eat kosher meat. In our tradition the way the animal has to be killed is by quick cutting of the throat of the animal,'' he said.

Stunning could kill an animal before it bled out, in violation of Jewish tradition, he claimed.

''We make a concession for beef because cattle have a tendency to be much stronger and resilient. Sheep literally become unconscious the moment the knife is cut across their throat. We believe such killing without stunning does result in immediate, painless death,'' he said.

The Midfield Group abattoir, in Warrnambool, has stopped unstunned slaughter for exports to the United Arab Emirates. Livestock was now stunned before halal slaughter, said general manager Dean McKenna.

''Personally, I believe all animals should be immobilised and stunned because that is the most humane way to do it,'' he said.

''We chose for commercial reasons not to do it, because it was a very small market and we didn't want the unnecessary negative attention.''

G.A. Gathercole abattoir, in south-east Melbourne, defended the practice. ''We're under an

approved arrangement, we're doing the right thing. We've got to meet orders as required,'' said Justin Gathercole.

He declined to comment on animal welfare issues. ''We're all a bit sensitive obviously with this deplorable thing in Indonesia.''

Several studies into ritual slaughter have found sheep remain conscious for up to 20 seconds after their throat is slit, and cattle, which have an extra blood supply to the brain through the back of the neck, for up to two minutes.

Animals Australia executive director Glenys Oogjes said governments must ban the practice.

''If you sat and counted up to 20 seconds and imagined the fear and pain and suffering involved when your throat is cut, you wouldn't think it was acceptable,'' she said.

''It is nonsensical that the Jewish community have clearly accepted stunning can be a part of kosher-slaughtered cattle but they won't accept that for sheep.

''This is just a profit-driven issue. The vast majority of sheep killed in Australia are electrically stunned but there have been a few export contracts with clients who have been accommodated.''

Ikebal Patel, president of the Australian Federation of Islamic Councils, conceded all but a minority of ''conservative Muslims'' accepted electrical stunning of sheep pre-slaughter.

''Inherently in Islam as long as the stunning is reversible, there is no injury to the animal at all and they can basically walk away if the period of stunning lapses, then stunning is allowed,'' he said.

But he opposed a blanket ban on unstunned slaughter. ''I think any individual, whether they're Muslim or Jewish, should be allowed to have meat on their table that is in accordance with their religious beliefs.''

The primary industries council of state and federal agriculture ministers started reviewing ritual slaughter standards in 2007. The Australian Meat Industry Council says it is awaiting its findings.

Comments

[WoolSilkCotton]

++It is nonsensical that the Jewish community have clearly accepted stunning can be a part of kosher-slaughtered cattle but they won't accept that for sheep...'This is just a profit-driven issue.++

Yes, and the legacy of animal cruely by the Rubashkin Crime Family goes on and on, and those who continue to shamelessly support him with claims of antisemitism are just digging a hole for themselves, deeper and deeper.

Just how much lamb do frumma have to fress, anyway? And just how clean is the Gutnick name in Australia?

[seymour]

of course we do not have a tradition of stunning. there was no stunning hundreds of years ago.

so the argument make no sense

[Ya Way No Way (Former Jew)]

Time to give it up, rabbis. Go back to school, get real jobs, and let people who know animals decide how to slaughter them.

We live in the 21st century. Science shows that kosher slaughter is cruel and inhumane.

No one chose Jews. Jews made up a myth and all kinds of rules. Somehow it endured when the Greek myths petered out. But it won't survive the free exchange of information.

[WoolSilkCotton]

Didn't the frumma just have big rallies for Rubashkin in Australia?

Did they think the nonJewish meat industry wouldn't notice?

[Just Me]

WSC: to answer your question re gutnicks in australia: there are a few of them, some have more credibility than others.

re: rubashkin fundraiser
It is incredible to me that here in Aussie-land we have thousands of families who cannot even afford to buy kosher meat. For this reason, many Jews buy treife, [avoiding pigs]. Meanwhile, there is still money around to rescue american criminals.

If you are a criminal, the frummies will help you out. If you are a good person, they will ignore you.

Welcome to the world of 5771.

[WoolSilkCotton]

Just Me, thanks for the insight.

[sarah]

WSC,

What exactly is your problem? The Shchito Problem in Australia is much older the the Rubashkin company.

People looking to ban shchito or “humanitarian” and “animal rihts” reasons date back many many years.

Sometimes it’s difficult to distinguish your rhetoric and stereotyping then that of some others in this “web community” then that of some of our long time worst “friends”. No I’m not calling you an anti-Semite, I’m just saying that your arguments and stereotyping sometimes sound awfully similar.

What problem do you have with frum people strictly adhering to Halacha? Why does it bother you much that they want to eat glat kosher lamb and not chaser treif like you and your friends?

[Teddy]

In the Netherlands it turns out that the research the PvdD (Animal Rights) used to get the support of the shechita and its muslim equivalent is very flimsy indeed.

[WoolSilkCotton]

Sarah, what makes you think I eat treif? I am a religious person. You know nothing about me.

You can have humane kosher slaughter, and we both know it. However, the hasidic kosher industry has made it very clear that they are not interested.

Read the letters sent by Nate Lewin and the OU to PETA after they exposed what was going on at Agriprocessors, then tell me if you think the orthodox establishment has any interest in humane kosher slaughter.

As much as you may dislike PETA, the paper trail and the letters sent by your hero Lewin and your leaders at the OU are there for you to read:

http://www.peta.org/features/AgriProcessors-key-documents.aspx

You know that Empire and Hebrew National have excellent reputations in the industry, and yet the Lubavitch world wouldn't touch their products.

Eating less meat would also be a good idea. There is no Torah requirement to eat meat. It is just another habit passed along that the religious world thinks is unchangeable.

Sarah, I share your concerns that anti-Jewish forces may have a hand in some of this, but there is still plenty of room for improvement in the kosher meat industry. Their obstinacy whenever their practices are challenged isn't helping matters any.

[Just Me]

SaraH; what exactly is glatt kosher?
How is it different from normal kosher?
Why do some Jews need to be "more kosher" than everyone else.... and why are these same "glatt Jews" giving money for lawyers and court cases, when other Jews can't feed their families?
Is that what is known as being a "Glatt kosher jew"?

Second question:
Do Glatt Kosher Jews speak any loshon hora? Because I would think that with their strict kashrut requirements, their mouths would be very pure. But that doesn't seem to be the case. Why not? Why hasn't the "glatt" made them holy-tongued?

[WoolSilkCotton]

In pre-war Europe, nobody could afford glatt. It is strictly a modern American phenomenon simply because Jews now are supposedly wealthier and can afford the luxury of glatt.

Jews in der alter heim ate nonglatt kosher. And even then, meat was a luxury.

Who said all this? None other than Aaron Rubashkin.

[Aharoni]

So hypocritical; the failure of mechanics at non-kosher plants and the horrific suffering of animals has been well documented, but that is acceptable. Hey, what about bullfighting in Spain? In any event, meat is just so bad for a person's health, frum Jews should follow the lead of Kasho and eat only chicken. At that point though, our enemies would probably demand that Jews eat some cattle or mutton, since our boycotting the products would cause suffering to the poor farmers.

[yidandahalf]

http://www.theaustralian.com.au/national-affairs/indonesian-slaughter-laws-cant-stop-abattoir-torture/story-fn59niix-1226067530577

Religious slaughter has no place in the world today. Neither does the formerly sacrosanct (no pun intended) separation of church and state clauses in legislation. Both these entities should be done away with in their entirety. The religionists can support themselves and their absurd and corrupt efifices by honest labor. If people need to fress they can buy flesh to do so like the rest of the population does in WalMart. If they find this unacceptable they can tether up some poor creatures in their backyard and slaughter them themselves.

Religious Fressers:
The handwriting is on the wall. READ IT. Stock up while you can on your favorite products before it's too late.

[yidandahalf]

sarah, think longer before you pick some crap with WSC and post. You are no match for him, trust me.

[Teddy]

I meant:

In the Netherlands it turns out that the research the PvdD (Animal Rights) used to get the support of the other parties for the banning of shechita and its muslim equivalent is very flimsy indeed.

[yidandahalf]

Teddy,
Please provide links and/or article and journal titles for the research you are referring to. As you are probably aware, one of the methods included within "research methods" is making the results and methodology of any study accessible which is normally done by publication in a scholarly journal. Unpublished works such as dissertations are also accessible. Therefore we request your sources so that we can verify them. I will try and do a lit search myself and post what I find.
You cannot pull shit out of the air and post whathaveyou on this blog. You will be called to substantiate the content of your posts.

[yidandahalf]

I might also mention that animal rights' orgs are run by alot of very smart and very impassioned people. It seems most strange they would use flimsy research when so much verifiable and reliable work is out there for them to sourch.

[Ya Way No Way (Former Jew)]

Teddy, regardless, it is time to get with the times.

The Muslims accept stunning. Jews should too or just eat what everyone else eats.

There is a lot of understandable anti Jewish backlash in the world now because of what Israel does to the natives of its region. Jewish and Israeli survival depend on world goodwill.

Best to just drop the identity, forget the Yahweh myth and its rituals, and join the rest of the world.

[Yoel Mechanic]

>Just how much lamb do frumma have to fress, anyway?

This comment says a lot.

[Teddy]

Yid+0.5,is Dutch one of the languages you understand?

http://www.dagelijksestandaard.nl/2011/06/wageningen-het-rapport-van-de-botte-bijl-gaat-niet-over-de-rituele-slacht

http://www.nik.nl/wp-content/uploads/2011/06/TNOrapport-juni-2011.pdf

(Now it is true TNO was hired by the NIK,so its impartiality may be somewhat suspect).

[sarah]

“Jewish and Israeli survival depend on world goodwill.”

If that was the truth – Jews and Israel would be out of existence for thousands of years already.

The survival of the Jewish people is dependant only on Hashem and the Jewish people’s adherence to his will and commandments.

Also, Jews are entitled to meticulously adhere to the Jewish religion as interpreted by their own religious authorities without the interference of others.

[Teddy]

You consider 7th Day Adventist politicians as very smart? What about Avigdor Lieberman?

Do not get me wrong, there is not much wrong with the research as such, I called it flimsy because it has little relevance as far as the topic concerned "ritual slaughter in the Netherlands". One is not covering the Dutch situation, one is not about ritual slaughter at all and one is concluding that regular slaughter can be improved, just as well as ritual... none of them seem to give a reason why ritual slaughter as practiced in the Netherlands should be prohibited.

On the other hand, allowing members of the Semitic monotheisms to do something prohibited to everybody else, is in itself raising hostility against them. On the gripping hand, back in the 19th century Jews owned and operated most of the Dutch ruminant meat industry, if there were Spanish names in it, the belonged to Sephardim, the language of the life stock trade in Winschoten was Yiddish, OK, the goyish butchers became more common, but it only went really wrong AFTER the Shoah (during the Shoah too, of course, but the decline of Jewish influence in the Dutch meat industry was of very little importance during that time), very sad, Moshe the butcher who had lost most of his Jewish customers, was no longer allowed to sell everybody kosher meat, kosher became limited to Jews only... and the Jewish meat industry crashed all the way...

Sad, but at least the entire country got used to eating matzot, round ones, as it should be.

[Teddy]

YWNW, the only time Jews did accept stunning was when that corporal with the moustache was still around.

Saying that Jews should simply accept there is no kosher beef anymore, is not as nasty...

[Yoel Mechanic]

>You cannot pull shit out of the air and post whathaveyou on this blog. You will be called to substantiate the content of your posts.

That's right! There is a rule here, to argue with facts and logic, as well as no name calling. Credible sources are necessary

[mordecai]

In its day the sharp knife across the throat was the most humane method of slaughter. Than is not the case anymore. It all comes down to interpretation. If we interpret kosher slaughter to mean humane slaughter then we can argue that the "traditional" way is no longer truly kosher since technology has allowed for a superior way of slaughter.

Literalists love to argue the inerrant word of scripture. If this is the case lets

(1) Not suffer a witch to live
(2) Kill our disobedient children

[Commentator]

" ... We make a concession for beef because cattle have a tendency to be much stronger and resilient."

What does that mean????? Do Australians rabbis quietly allow stunning for cattle???

[Yoel Mechanic]

>Literalists love to argue the inerrant word of scripture. If this is the case lets

(1) Not suffer a witch to live
(2) Kill our disobedient children

Posted by: mordecai | June 26, 2011 at 02:58 PM
-------------------------------------------
read Rashi once in a while.

[Yoel Mechanic]

>Do Australians rabbis quietly allow stunning for cattle???

i'm glad someone else noticed this.

[WoolSilkCotton]

A kid wearing a yarmulke just caught Teixeira's home run in the 8th inning of the Yankee game! His dad was sitting next to him.

[David]

" ... We make a concession for beef because cattle have a tendency to be much stronger and resilient."

What does that mean????? Do Australians rabbis quietly allow stunning for cattle???

Posted by: Commentator | June 26, 2011 at 03:32 PM

As far as I know, they don't. However, I believe there is a leniency to allow this in some countries where stunning is a legal requirement. (That is not the case in Australia where stunning is NOT a legal requirement for religious slaughter.)

I have no problem with schechita when it is done correctly. Unfortunately the worlwide backlash against shechita is partly the legacy of Rubashkin and the frumma's lack of concern for the cruelty that went on in his plant.

Another issue in Australia is the scandal relating to live cattle exports to Indonesia. There was an expose on Australian TV of the extreme cruelty that went on in Idonesian Halal slaughter plants to Australian cattle exported there. The way that the animals were treated in Indonesia is indeed horrific and has lead to Australia banning live cattle exports there until they clean up their act.

A person on one of the email lists I am on made the comment that the Australian animals were being tortured in Indonesia as they were animals from the Infidel West and lead lives of privilige and deserved to suffer. Presuambly this is because the average Australian farm animal is better fed, better housed and has better medical care than the average Muslim Indonesian person.

Of course, Joe Sixpack cannot distinguish between the Halal religious slaughter in a Third World country and an advanced country like Australia and cruelty in Indonesian Halal religious slaughter
is seen as the equivalent of shechita in Australia.

[Ya Way No Way (Former Jew)]

If kosher slaughter contradicts the laws of a civilized society, then Jews have no right to practice it. Muslims are not free to practice jihad either.

There is no Hashem unless you mean one of the sons of Mohammed. No Yahweh either. It is all a myth. Wake up before it is too late.

[WoolSilkCotton]

David, thank you for providing that backdrop to the current Australian concern about religious slaughter.

The video is horrifying, and far worse than the Rubashkin video:

http://barenakedislam.wordpress.com/2011/06/08/oh-boo-hoo-indonesians-cry-that-australias-ban-on-cattle-exports-for-halal-slaughter-is-discrimination-warning-disturbing-video-footage/

This is a huge story on every Australian news website. No wonder there is not much indulgence right now in Australia for lectures from clergy about religious tolerance in the slaughterhouse business.

[WoolSilkCotton]

Sarah, take a good look at the video then rethink your comment:

"Jews are entitled to meticulously adhere to the Jewish religion as interpreted by their own religious authorities without the interference of others."

Moslems feel the same way. To the general public, there is little difference; it's more ritual slaughter by religious clerics who refuse to show concern for animal cruelty or to cooperate with government concerns for animal welfare.

http://barenakedislam.wordpress.com/2011/06/08/oh-boo-hoo-indonesians-cry-that-australias-ban-on-cattle-exports-for-halal-slaughter-is-discrimination-warning-disturbing-video-footage/

[shlomo]

WSC Shecitah is news in Australia because of the Indonesian videos not because of Rubaskin rallies and the part about stunning and cattle vs sheep is because they allow stunning after slaughter with cattle and not with sheep this results in Israel not wanting to accept Australian castle as Kosher

[WoolSilkCotton]

Shlomo, thanks. It is easier now to understand the issue, given the context, with the Indonesian video being on everyone's mind there.

So do Australian rabbis say that cattle can be stunned after slaughter and still be considered kosher, at least for use by Jews in Australia?

[mordecai]

read Rashi once in a while.

Posted by: Yoel Mechanic | June 26, 2011 at 03:37 PM

Yoel,

The problem with Jewish education is its constant reference to any number of esteemed Rabbinic authorities at the expense of actually individually reading scripture itself.

Consequently, I have yet to meet a fellow Jew who has actually read scripture itself. Or who can tell me how the biblical stories may be applied to our everyday lives to strengthen us in time of despair.

YES we pedestrian Jews can read the Tanach without resorting to the ladder of ever increasing Rabbinic authority. Maybe we do not need them. Maybe the Karaites were right

[anuran]

Ya Way No Way - Do you have any idea what jihad is? Seriously. What is the difference between the Lesser Jihad and the Greater Jihad?

[Shlomo]

Yes all kosher beef is stunned after slaughter in Australia

[sarah]

WSC,

There is one simple distinction. The Jewish people have been following a moral and ethical standard – self imposed and self governed (by the Torah (when I write torah, I include scripture as well as rabbinic rulings)) – for THOSANDS OF YEARS. At the very same times when many nations acted like barbarians and brutal murderers.

These moral and ethical standards have always been in place by Jews. We have and always had strict halachot regarding unnecessarily causing pain to ANY of God’s creatures. One who violates it is committing an avaira. Now come along these “Johnny come late” types, who suddenly discovered the concept of having pity and respecting God’s creatures and they want to impose THIERE newly discovered morals on us.

Let me tell you (these PETA and other animal right crusaders against kosher shchito), when your ancestors were doing quite wild and disgusting things to PEOPLE – let alone animals, our ancestors followed the Torah and it’s Mitzvot – which clearly compelled us Jews to have mercy on animals. Stop imposing your newly discovered morals on us, we have a very clear moral standard and moral compass – the HOLY TORAH given to us by God over 3300 years ago, and we have always have and always will make the utmost effort to follow these rules and regulations meticulously.

So don’t compare Kosher Shchito to Muslims or anyone else for that matter. (as for posting a video of Rubashkins former company, if you bring anyone into the cleanest Shcito place – and they never experienced something like that – they are sure to be repulsed. After all, shchito is very bloody. Yet it is done with the utmost respect and adherence to the laws of the torah which INCLUDE the laws of “tzar baalei chaim”.

Cheers mate!

[WoolSilkCotton]

Sarah, you are drinking too much Chabad Kool-Aid.

You choose to ignore the facts of the gratuitous cruelty committed by your hero Rubashkin. You obviously did not read any of the letters from Lewin or the OU to PETA, how they clearly stated that they did not care in the slightest about “tzar baalei chaim”.
You did not read any of the letters from PETA to Rubashkin, nor do you care to.
You never watched the video of what went on there, nor do you care to.

You are only aware of frum propaganda and Chabad lies, as you remain sealed off in JewLand.

But that's ok, the world will move forward without you, and maybe without shchita as you currently know it.

[sarah]

WSC,

Have you ever been to a large kosher slaughterhouse where they produce beef and veal?

I doubt it. Since it’s very gruesome and will disgust any person without experience if the field. Show a video of any Shchito – the most sanitary one in the world – and it will disgust most people. (unless it was produced in Hollywood. So putting videos online does not impress any serious – honest - observer.

To say that a shchito does not care about Tzar Baaley Chaim is ludicrous!!!. Tzar Baaley Chaim is not defined by PETA rather ONLY by the Torah!!!

The fact remains, PETA and any other activist group has no place lecturing Jews about ethics, morals and kindness to God’s creatures!!! While their ancestors were barbarians and cannibals, our ancestors adhered to the highest standards of morals, ethics and respected people and animals.

Agri adhered to the highest levels of Halacha! PETA doesn’t like it? It doesn’t look good on video? Too bad!

[sarah]

A) I have read the letters from PETA
B) I have watched the video posted online
C) I have also personally been to places of shchito (there are Shchatim in my family)

[sage]

+++Agri adhered to the highest levels of Halacha! PETA doesn’t like it? It doesn’t look good on video? Too bad!

Posted by: sarah | June 26, 2011 at 09:17 PM+++

Sarah,

You are either lying, totally delusional, or are one who cannot comprehend the truth, when it is plainly staring them in the face.

In any event, you are one who should be grealty pitied.

[sarah]

Sage,

Other then PETA, who else alleged (and brought forth solid proof) that Agri was transgressing the way our Holy Torah requires shchito to be performed and the way animals should be treated during the Shchito process?

Please advise me as to which Posek raised these issues? Which specific halachot were they violating? Please be specific.

[sarah]

My question isn’t only about Agri (I was only responding to WSC), it seems like some of you guys have a serious problem with all shchito’s (here were talking about Australia! You guys champion every article – international – that is anti shchito).

My full question is: what do you find wrong in the standard, current shchito that is against the Torah and it’s timeless ethics, that it needs to be regulated by PETA, the UE the Australian government etc.?

[Just Me]

Do Australians rabbis quietly allow stunning for cattle???

i'm glad someone else noticed this.

And I'm glad a few others noticed this.

So come on rabbis: WHAT DOES IT MEAN ?????

[Shlomo]

Australia allows stunning after shechita not before and Sarah the problem some have here is not shechitah but how it is done like turning the animal upside down first and especially hoisting it up by its hind leg in a chain for shechitah
Temple Grandin who is not Jewish gives suggestions to minimize the trauma animals suffer

[David]

Australia allows stunning after shechita not before and Sarah the problem some have here is not shechitah but how it is done like turning the animal upside down first and especially hoisting it up by its hind leg in a chain for shechitah

That method is not used in Australia.

[Adam Neira]

The various parties in Victoria must be able to argue a rational point why their preferred method of slaughter via stunning first is more enlightened. In regards to the current zeitgeist I have sensed something for quite awhile. There are some people in positions of power in Western nations who are very upset with the idea that Jewish conceptions of the universe are more right than theirs. New Zealand, The Netherlands et al. have been a case in point re. shechita.

[yidandahalf]

Anyone who battles with an intellect as deficient and benighted as that of sarah's is truly wasting resources. The woman is representative of what is dangerous and futile about religion. Across any and all faiths, this is what comes of church and state legilation and the fostering of "fatih based" parasitism by governments. It is again a dangerous dead end.
That said, the woman does give us somewhat of a platform to advance our cause which we do with facts, logic, and decency and outside of dogma and superstition.

[yidandahalf]

What is Shchito? Where do these people come from? Don't they realize that before posting they should at least attain a GED for christsake?

[sage]

+++Please advise me as to which Posek raised these issues? Which specific halachot were they violating? Please be specific.

Posted by: sarah | June 26, 2011 at 10:07 PM+++

Dear Delusional Sarah,

Read what's in the link below, if you can.

Your question will be answered, but you will ignore the answer, and remain delusional.

http://www.peta.org/features/Agriprocessors-experts.aspx

[Ben Yomo]

Sage:

Why not disclose that you are a shill for PETA?

[sage]

Hey Ben,

I'm only a shill for HaShem.

Process that and go away.

[WoolSoilkCotton]

++yidandahalf | June 27, 2011 at 05:49 AM ++

Good point, and it's why I don't pursue the conversation with the Kool-Aiders beyond a couple of responses.

++Ben Yomo | June 27, 2011 at 07:44 AM++

Ben, I guess anyone that doesn't tow the frumma party line of cheerleading for Rubashkin is labeled "a shill for PETA"?

[Jeff]

"Ben, I guess anyone that doesn't tow the frumma party line of cheerleading for Rubashkin is labeled "a shill for PETA"?

Posted by: WoolSoilkCotton | June 27, 2011 at 08:58 AM"

As well as a self-hating Jew.

[yidandahalf]

ben Homo, sage is not a shill for PETA. I on the other hand, am an unabashed and virulently driven supporter of PETA. Ergo, please address your comments to me.

[Teddy]

Adam Neira, "There are some people in positions of power in Western nations who are very upset with the idea that Jewish conceptions of the universe are more right than theirs. New Zealand, The Netherlands et al. have been a case in point re. shechita. "

Upset? Neira, telling them that in all earnest would be risking a great aveira, they might be laughing themselves to death...

[sage]

+++ben Homo, sage is not a shill for PETA. I on the other hand, am an unabashed and virulently driven supporter of PETA. Ergo, please address your comments to me.

Posted by: yidandahalf | June 27, 2011 at 12:08 PM+++

Many thanks, my friend!!!!!

[Teddy]

Oh, the news from the Netherlands: The three parties of the christian (=religious) support the request of the Christian Union member of parliament to postpone the vote about the prohibition of shechita tomorrow. She was the only one to come and see shechita this morning.

What is funny is that the PVV-animal man seemed surprised that trying to outlaw shechita (even if it is just the work of one shochet on Monday), would unleash such a powerful Jewish lobby.

[David]

Regarding the obvious question about why Australia exported live animals to Indonesia rather than processing them locally and sending over frozen meat - the reason is that most Indonesians don't have refrigeration and like their meat fresh.

[What kind of goyishe name is Harold z"l?]

All I can say is that Australian shechitah is extremely stunning.

[sarah]

Sage,

My challenge to you was to point me to the specific issues that are practiced in Shchito establishments in general (including Agri) that violates the laws of the Torah, and for that reason you guys here on this blog consistently cheer every anti-Shchito article or agenda worldwide.

You direct me to an article by PETA. Is this a “Purim Shpeil”? you are using peta as a halachic authority? I asked you to pint me to a known Posek who alleges that wrongdoing occurs regularly at Shchito establishments. Also, I asked you to point to specific halachot in the Torah/Jewish law that is being violated. (or does your constant anti-schito drumming steme from anti religious, bigoted sentiments?)

So peta was able to put together some PR statements. Is that the best you can give me?

As an aside, as to the “trachea” issue raised by PETA - not any Rabbinic authority, if you would have even begun studying the laws of Shchito – in Halacha, you would surely know that this argument stems from total illiteracy in this subject.

I will back up my statement by referring you to “Simla Chadsha” Siman 2 ot 27. There are more.

But putting this issue aside, since it was practiced only for a short period of time at Agri – and I contend – with clear proof – that there is absolutely nothing wrong with it Halachicly! This is not practiced in most other places. So why do you constantly enjoy, cheer on and derive much nachas when you have gentile governments trying to limit the Jewish population from practicing Halacha to the fullest degree?

No generelazations please. Please bring concrete proof from your contentions.

[Shmarya]

I will back up my statement by referring you to “Simla Chadsha” Siman 2 ot 27. There are more.

You're wrong.

The Simla Hadasha assumes the second cut is done with a sharp knife – generally the shechita knife – a the shochet or or a trained Jewish helper.

The Simla Hadasha's permit for a second cut is rejected in any case by many poskin, often with the language, we don't do this here.

There is no permit to have a non-Jew pull and hack at the animal with a meat hook and a regular knife.

That's what so many rabbis initially said the shechita on the video was treife.

They only retracted when the the OU and KAJ interceded.

And having spoken to many of these people over the years – including to insiders at KAJ, the OU, etc. – most remained shocked by the videos and most continued to believe that what Rubashkin did should not have been done.

[Ben Yomo]

"I'm only a shill for HaShem.

Process that and go away."

Sage - so let me get this straight - you lie about who you really are and then give lectures about justice and honesty (and then try to squelch discussion?)

talk about disconnect . . .

[sarah]

Shmarya, you are beyond funny.

This further demonstrates how you make categorical, strong arguments, and portray yourself as a semi-expert in many fields - including shcito. – while in actuality, you have absolutely no idea what you are talking about.

You kept hammering away at Sholom Rubashkin forever – together with the unions (who were calling all Jewish homes via robo call) claiming that Agri’s meat was not “kosher”. Yes, you and PETA, both who have absolutely no idea what kosher actually is.

Your statement is laughable to any beginner who just began learning the laws of shchito.

The fact is EXACTLY THE OPPOSITE to what you write. If a Jew does anything after the initial act of shchito, it is TREIF! Only if a non-Jew does it, it is 1000% Kosher! And not, it does not need to be a Chalef (special knife used by a shochet), it can be done with a hacksaw.

Shmarya, please stop portraying yourself as some sort of expert on Halacha!

Here is a link to the entire book of Simla Chadasha. This sefer is used by (almost) all shochatim. To claim that it was anyting but 100% glat kosher meat is libelous and false.

http://download.hebrewbooks.org/downloadhandler.ashx?req=35269

You obvisly have never heard of the Sefer Simla Chadash let aloene read it.

[Shmarya]

Idiot.

The Simla Hadasha's permit for a second cut comes from a gemara.

In that gemara Jews take a piece of the meat from the area of the shechita cut and eat it immediately. It was thought to be a refuah for a certain illness.

So you are wrong, as usual.

Past that, the Simla Hadash's position is not universally accepted, and many poskim oppose any second cut/

The problem, 'sarah, is that you learn your halakha from Chabad – and Chabad is far for truthful in these matters because it is trying to protect Sholom Rubashkin.

Now toddle off.

[sarah]

Shmarya, you continue to demonstrate your ignorance. The Simla Chadash takes it from the Shchan Aruch who takes it form the Talmud.

No one hold that it is not kosher!

Shmarya, you can play all sorts of games, the fact remains that you have never studied the laws of shchito – even the most elementary ones. You can try to cover over the facts.

Your state below – clearly demonstrates you are totally un educated in the Jewish laws of ritual slaughter (although you portray yourself as an expert)

“The Simla Hadasha assumes the second cut is done with a sharp knife – generally the shechita knife – a the shochet or or a trained Jewish helper . .

“…There is no permit to have a non-Jew pull and hack at the animal with a meat hook and a regular knife.

“That's what so many rabbis initially said the shechita on the video was treife…”

Shmarya, you are always angry at “the fruma” for not being honest… time for a little honesty…

[Shmarya]

You're an idiot.

You've been brainwashed by Chabad and all you know is Chabad propaganda.

Now do try to process: there are poskim who hold second cut done for any other reason that securing a small piece of meat for that refuah is not permitted.

The use of a meat hook, a non Jew hacking with a less than sharp knife, etc. are all things many rabbis hold to be forbidden.

That you are too ignorant to know this is no surprise, however.

[sarah]

Please quote directly from some Halachic books to back up your arguments.

Why do you keep on bringing up “Chabad” instead of backing up your arguments? Is that your way from sneaking way from the hard facts?

Do you use personal insults as a way to change the subject and not have to admit that you made clearly false statements? Also, how do you know what group I belong to?

[Shmarya]

Please quote directly from some Halachic books to back up your arguments.

Shulchan Aruch Yoreh Dayah 23:5) After he slaughters most of one [sign] in fowl, or most of two [signs] in cattle, there is no shehiyah [pause] that can make it unacceptable. Accordingly there is not shehiyah with the windpipe in fowl. But there are those that say that in any place that one does not finish the slaughter of both signs it is unacceptable on the grounds of shehiyah, and l’hathila they should be careful and be concerned about this. Rama: And even b’diavad, the custom is that the meat is unfit. Therefore after one slaughters most of the signs and the cattle or fowl dies slowly, one should hit it on the head to kill it and not return to [finish the] slaughter [and the animal is non-kosher].

This is why the Simla Hadasha doesn't want the second cut to be done with a halaf, because it would appear to be violating the clear halakha.

He matirs a second cut to facilitate bleeding, not to finish shechita.

Many poskim disagree with this heter, including some associated with Israel's chief rabbinate. I know this because I spoke to some of those poskim.

At Agriprocessors, the pulling with the meat hook and hacking with the dull knife destroyed evidence of a kosher shechita. It also pulled on the lungs, which could detach sirchas and cause an animal to be declared glatt when it really isn't. These points were made to me by several US rabbis involved in shechita, including poskim.

It was also clear that both simanim were often not completely severed.

The simla hadasha's hetter was never normative. It was not practiced in most communities.

Indeed, even people inside KAJ opposed it and were very upset that Rabbi Kohn allowed it – especially because he did so without informing them.

Note the clear din of the Shulchan Aruch above: if the animal does not quickly die, hit it on the head with a hammer to kill it.

Because we're dealing with the din of pausing here, and the time the SA gives for that is very brief (the time it would take to take hold of the animal and trip it or push it over, which is much less than 60 seconds, what took place in Agriprocessors was a problem at any rate.

Animals were often conscious and trying to run away after shechita. They often did not die quickly.

And Agriprocessors did not shoot them or stun them.

Again, the Simla Hadasha's heter is based on a gemara that permits slicing a small amount of meat from the shechita cut as the blood pulses out and immediately eating it as a cure for a disease.

There are poskim who do not agree that the gemara's heter can be applied to a second cut to facilitate bleeding.

And then there are poskim who disagree with the second cut for other reasons, including the SA cited quoted above.

And then there are the dozens of rabbis who saw that PETA video and were aghast at what Agriprocessors was doing.

These rabbis were threatened by the OU and by the Rabbinute, and by other rabbis who gave supervision at Agriprocessors.

But some of them spoke to me. Others communicated with PETA.

Of course, none of this matters to a Chabad cult member.

[sarah]

Shmarya, I give you credit for actually going out (even at this late stage) and finding the Halacha in the Shulchan Aruch.

The bottom line Halacha is that after the initial shchito – after the shochet removes the knife form the animal’s neck, if a JEW makes another cut – for what ever reason in the world! – according to the way halacha is accepted today (from the time of the Ram”a) it would be considered treif. It dosnt matter what type of knife is used! It can be a chalef or circular saw, in both cases it would be TREIF.

On the other hand, if a non-Jew made another cut, halachicy it’s NO PROBLEM, since a non-Jew is not qualified to perform shchito, his action is not considered a continuation of the shchito, rather it’s part of processing the already shechted animal, which can begin immediately after the shochet removes his knife and performs the bedika (making sure he cut the required amount).

(in other words: if a Jew makes another cut, it would be considered “shehiya” – one of the 5 things that make a shechted animal treif. A non-Jew cannot make “shehiya” after the animal was shechted properly).

All your ranting was based on a fallacy.

“Note the clear din of the Shulchan Aruch above: if the animal does not quickly die, hit it on the head with a hammer to kill it.”

It does not instruct one to hit it on the head. The shuchan aruch give you and option.

“Again, the Simla Hadasha's heter is based on a gemara”

This is patently false! It’s not heter. It has no connection to the issue of Refua! It’s quite simple: if it’s done by a Jew – it constitutes “shehiya”. If don’t by a non-jew THERE IS NO PROBLEM AS FAR AS HALACHA IS CONCERND. (it may not be highly advised, but is certainly is 1000% PERMITED.

“There are poskim who do not agree that the gemara's heter can be applied to a second cut to facilitate bleeding.”

Again, this is false!

“And then there are the dozens of rabbis who saw that PETA video and were aghast at what Agriprocessors was doing.”

You are referencing statements made purely for PR reasons. PETA pressured OU (and others), threatening to wage big PR campaigns against them (like they did to Agri)! There is/was no objection from prominent rabbis as far as HALACHA is concerned. It was purely a BUSINESS ($$$$) statement. You will/can find no evidence that it violated HALACHA!

As an aside, you make it seem like you have/had a problem ONLY with Agri, due to their imaginary “breaches of halacha”. So why then do you champion all Anti-Shchito initiatives and campains worldwide?

Shmarya, you get the last word.

[Shmarya]

Please.

1. You won't understand this because you don't understand much of anything that proves you wrong or proves Rubashkin wrong, but what you just admitted – that Jew cannot make the second cut because it disqualifies shechita – means that Rubashkin violated Humane Slaughter law even according to you.

If the second cut is part of shechita, the animal is treife. And the only exemption for a second cut under US Law was that it was a part of the act of shechita.

2. The Simla Hadasha and others allowing a second cut could not permit a second cut unless they has a source to rely on. That source is a gemara that allows a second cut done immediately by a Jew to take a small piece of meat from the location of the shechita cut and eat it immediately as a remedy for a certain illness.

3. The question the Simla Hadasha is really resolving is as follows:

Sometimes the shechita cut is made and the simanim are not fully severed. If we do nothing, the animal is in great pain for an extended period of time. What should we do?

Killing the animal with a heavy hammer – the recommendation of the Shulchan Aruch – makes the animal treife.

Leaving the animal as is makes salting much less effective.

Having the shochet do another cut violates the prohibition of pausing (because the shochet had to stop to check his shechita, realized the simanin were not severed, and then would go back to "re-shecht" the animal).

To avoid the bleed out problem that impacts salting, and to avoid making the animal teife by hitting it on the head with a hammer, he allows a non-Jew to do a second cut because once the original shechita is kosher – even if poorly done and causing great suffering to the animal – a non-Jew can make cuts and it cannot negate the existing kosher shechita.

So the Shilchan Aruch is concerned for the pain of the animal and concerned with improper bleed out and its preferred answer is to kill the animal with a blow to the head, and presumably sell it as treife.

The Simla Hadasha endorses a heter used in early Ashkenaz, when there were very few Jews and losing an animal because of a poor shechita cut could have meant no meat for that family for months on end.

The idea that a second cut would always be done is foreign to the Simla Hadasha.

What KAJ allowed Rubashkin to do was to have his shochtim INTENTIONALLY make shallow cuts. This protected their knives from the head restrainer on the rotating pen and allowed them to shechet much faster and to work longer without breaks, and it kept more shochtim working instead od fixing their knives.

The non-Jewish worker simply took a meat hook and regular knife and hacked away at each animal.

This is a violation of US Humane Slaughter Law and certainly is a profanation of halakha, which did not forsee or endorse intentionally bad shechita cuts followed by non-Jewish second cuts as any kind of norm.

[Shmarya]

And levi, or lev, or Sarah, or whatever name you're using now, you're banned for all the reasons you already know.