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June 21, 2011

Gay Orthodox Jews: A Response To The Jewish Press

Chail Levin Jewish Press reporter and columnist Elliot Resnick said gays are selfish and "self-indulgent," as he criticized a former friend, who he called "Dovid," for coming out as gay. Now "Dovid" responds.

 

A Response To Elliot Resnick and the Jewish Press
Chaim Levin (Dovid) • Special to FailedMessiah.com

I would like to state a few simple facts that are true for myself while growing up as gay orthodox jew.

1) The sweet frum boy that the author refers to in his article is me, Chaim Levin.

2) Elliiot (Gamliel as I knew him in camp) Resnick, the author of this article never contacted me to let me know that he would be writing this piece which particularly pertains to me. Even though he changed my name, I believe I had the right to share with him my side of the story before he publicly reprimanded me for talking "shamelessly" about my struggle of growing orthodox and gay. As he stated in the article he was a staff memeber at a Chabad camp in Parksville, New York that I attended in 1999 and he was my waiter. I believed we shared a pretty close connection, as I found myself able to talk to him about more personal things even at that young age of 10, because I felt that Elliot was unique and was able to understand me back then. With that being said, I haven't seen him or spoken to him in years, and he knows nothing of my life today, other than the few minutes that he heard me speak in the "it gets better video" on youtube.

3) When I say the three words "I am gay", my intent is not to shove anything down anyone's throat. I know that when I tell people that I, Chaim, who grew up in the trenches of Crown Heights within the four walls of the chabad community, am making light of a reality that most people never believed existed; an openly gay formerly Lubavitch 22 year old that attended all the top mainstream yeshivos known to Chabad. The point that I'm making is that we exist in your communities, we come from the same place that you do, and were no different than you either. By coming out publicly, something I do almost daily with zero shame, I believe and I know that I am making a difference for those who will come out in the future within these close-knit communities, and with that I hope these innocent people won't be treated as horribly as I was treated by my community.

4) By coming out publicly I am sending a message to all those out there that are still so ashamed about the fact that they're gay, the ones that are still hiding alone in isolation, I'm telling them that they're perfect the way they are. No one should suffer in silence because of something that they didn't choose, especially for being gay, because there's no shame in loving someone be they male or female. And when these people receive positive encouragement from people like myself who have been in the painful place closeted youth are in now, it can empower them and give them hope for a better future. When I was 17 and in the closet there weren't any videos like there are today, I was so conflicted and so isolated, and most of all I was ashamed.

5) Had Elliot Resnick spoken to me before he wrote this article, I am sure that he would've been surprised to learn that before I came out, I spent 2 years undergoing "experimental" "psedo-scientic" techniques through a group called JONAH to change my sexuality. I wanted desperately to live a torah filled life like the rest of my family members as well as community members. The "therapy" that I was subjected to for the sake of change involved what I believe to be sexual abuse, shame, and repression. Groups like JONAH target young people who are in the position that I once was; naive and afraid. By telling young people that they can change if they only tried hard enough, it leaves us feeling broken and shamed for not succeeding in changing despite the many hours and money spent on trying to change.

6) I never chose to be gay, no one does, for who in their right mind would "choose" to face the risk of losing their family, community, and friends because their community may reject them. This was the case for me, I was rejected by my family, my peers, and people who I believed loved me unconditionally as a Jew, friend, and family member simply for being who I was. Today most people in my life are more accepting of who I am, but that only came after years of tiring work that I did in order to let the message be heard: that gay people aren't evil, sick, or dangerous. I am grateful to my parents for coming the long way that the did to accept me as their son regardless of who I am, and although most of my siblings don't accept me, and many people in Crown Heights walk by me on the streets today as if I were the enemy, I walk with my head held high, I have no regrets.

7) Being that my torah portion that I read for my bar mitzvah was achrei mos kedoshim, I am very well aware of what is written there in regards to homosexuality, with that said though, when I tell someone that I am gay, I am NOT telling them about what I do privately behind closed doors. As far as I'm concerned Leviticus 18-22 does NOT say that you're not allowed to BE gay. And on the same token, one doesn't ask his friends or parents if they keep the laws of family purity, it's no one's place to decide or judge me based on the torah for simply being gay. It's more of an excuse to be homophobic rather then understanding what it's really like for someone who is in the conflicted position of where I once was, suffering in silence, all alone.

8) To clarify, this video was created as a response to the high rate of suicide among LGBT youth. This video wasn't about complaining, boasting shamelessly, or anything like that. It was a simple message to people all over the world who are suffering. Would Elliot Resnick rather see more youth struggling and committing suicide? That isn't a very torah kind of outlook. As I mentioned earlier about my bar mitzvah parsha, that torah portion speaks about many things, including loving your fellow Jew as you would love yourself. Sadly, Elliot's article was the opposite of love, it was an attempt to silence and shame people like me. I hope he can live with conscience for attempting to bash a project aimed at saving lives; he need not ask me forgiveness, but rather to all the suffering youth who may have come across his article this past weekend leaving them feeling more confused, more ashamed, with no hope of a future for them in their respective communities, just because they are gay.

To all the struggling people out there, the closeted ones, the married ones, the young ones who are afraid of losing their communities and families by coming out, remember this: You are perfect the way you are. No one can tell you to be something your not or force you to change something that is unchangeable. Don't be afraid of losing people who reject you simply for who you are, for they aren't real then. Our community is open and welcoming and you will never be alone. All you need to do is take the first step down the long road to healing, but I promise you, it will get better.

Related Post: Resnick's deplorable column and my response.

Video: It Gets Better.

Comments

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Oh yeah!! GO CHAIM!!!!

Wow! Chaim you are such an inspiration! Thank you sooooooooooooooo much for all the activism that you do! I am sure you are saving lives, and inspiring countless individuals in the community!

I'm sorry for all you have been through, and have no way of understanding how it must have been to go through the journey you have.

I am very impressed by your decision to use it for good, and help others that are going through similar experiences.

You are a hero! Keep it up!

Good time for you to come out of the closet Scotty/Shmarya. Although it wouldn't be much of a surprise. Always knew you were a faggot who likes it up the ass.

Bravo!!! Very well said...

Note to David and Goliath:

People who lash out the loudest and crudest against homosexuals are usually in deep denial of their own repressed sexuality.

I wish you well Chaim, Hashem accepts those who are true of heart and soul. To be a gahniff all week and meet at shul on Shabbos to daven is as phony as anyone asking you to be something you are not. We will all realize this when we finally meet with HIM. I'm glad you found freedom in all respects.

Dovid,

Most people interpret the word "gay" as meaning breaking Leviticus 18-22, not homosexual orientation.

There is nothing to be ashamed of in having a homosexual orientation. Just as there are people born with characteristics of both sexes, which the Gemara deals with, it is not a stretch that Hashem created people with homosexual orientation. Whether it is fixed or not, caused by heredity or environment, leave that to science.

I respect you for writing what you wrote. You are "fabulous" the way G-d created you.

Kol hakavod Chaim! I agree 100%--it does get better.

Not denying that you are gay and if you are that's your life and purgative. What I do have questions on are how do you call yourself and orthodox Jew.

Sorry Chaim, your pseudoname Dovid confused me.

Gd Bless you Chaim. You have much courage

I'm not a rav, so I'm not competent to paskin sha'lot. I have to admit that I'm uncomfortable with those orthodox Jews who permit some form of gay sex. On the other hand, my best friend died of AIDS 19 years ago. A day does not go by when I don't miss him; I think that would qualify me as not being homophobic. I think there is way too much focus on sexuality in general in society.

I'm not a psychologist, but I read this article today

http://www.autostraddle.com/brave-new-world-of-ex-gays-94660/

The most important thing is that I don't think that there is any way that someone can call themselves frum and not be able to show chesed for everyone.

nobody is arguing about being gay, you want to be gay then go be gay. what people are arguing about is whether gay people should get married. and to that i say Hell no!
be gay all you want doesnt bother me, just dont get married to him.

Good time for you to come out of the closet Scotty/Shmarya. Although it wouldn't be much of a surprise. Always knew you were a faggot who likes it up the ass.

Posted by: David and Goliath | June 21, 2011 at 02:02 PM


i have to agree with you on this one.
to Chaim Levin i have to say
loving your fellow Jew as you would love yourself according to the Gemarah is only beoisa maisa amcha

Tell him to quit whining. He alone decided to emerge from the cramped closet and stand dead center in the public forum. (There is a happy middle ground for homosexuals but he chose to bypass it.) At least let him take his hits like a man.

And, I would appreciate it if someone could explain to me what exactly is a homosexual (male and female).

What a poor lost soul and lets pray for him to do tshuva.
No matter what when and how you put it all he is doing is publicizing that he lives in sin and not to be ashamed about it.
It says in the Talmud that its a sin to publicize sins the person is doing.

Chaim Levin;
Your work is commendable, stay strong and be happy

Chaim,
Don't know you, but I understand your struggle.
I have to be honest with you, though.I felt your video where you are with a black hat was disingenuous, since you don't currently belong to that community.
I also don't really understand how one can "celebrate" being gay.It's a terrible test for an Orthodox Jew

@Alex @deremes

You guys don't know me, and it's pretty obvious that despite my CLEAR intentions as to why I came out you still think that it's about whining and publicizing sin. Fact is, no one has EVER heard me discuss my personal intimate life publicly, that's between me and god.

Thank you to everyone for your incredible support!!!

Chaim Levin (Dovid)
chaim89@gmail.com

Clarity is needed on what "shoving XYZ down someone's throat" actually is.

Here is my list of both cases:

1. examples of NOT shoving down the throat:
-revealing personal details of one's sexuality
-making videos to be seen in public
-public parades that have a permit.

2. These ARE examples of actual shoving down the throat:
-revealing personal details of one's sexuality while requiring someone to listen at gun point.
-having to watch a video at gun point.
-public parades without a permit, bystanders who flee will be shot at.
-those insipid BLUE EYES/BROWN EYES seminars, where attendance is an essential part of some job or school orientation.

is this clear enough?

Kol hakavod Chaim. Kol hakavod. Nothing but love, respect, and admiration.

Chaim - you rock! Amazing job with this article as well as the "It gets better" video. You are brave and an inspiration!

How about if a pedophile would come out of the closet and say the same?
Look up the definition of a pedophile someone attracted to a child under the age of 16 for more than 6 months. {I must admit I saw that, years ago}.
Again this doesn't mean the guy does anything, that is just who he is according to the poster. The same way the gay can't change, nor could the pedophile. Obviously moral behavior is what is demanded, not what goes on in people’s brain.
Now that said: if they just have [hirhurim] ,thoughts & urges that is their yetzer hora to deal with & the gay is in a worse position, if they are not bi, they can't have children easily.
From the news items I have read over years, a pedophile very likely has a family already, so the gay is nebach worse off.
If they control their emotions & do nothing, many would envy their reward in this world & the world to come.
If they don't succeed, then the gay & the pedophile have broken Torah commandments, depending on the crime, is how they are punished.
Would anyone ever dare to come out and say he is pedophile because that is how he was made?
There are differences, in a case when a person lost self control. The pedophile ends up being a murderer, on top of his biblical crimes. The gay may have had a consenting partner, where as a child is too young to consent.
The law of this country, was changed to permit homosexuality although not too long ago. In most of the world it is still illegal. Countries like Holland have a much lower age of consent, and basically permit pedophilia. {In my humble opinion}.
The Torah forbids both.
I do agree that the Torah doesn't forbid a person of being what they are, but it does state you should not stray after your eyes & heart referring to these transgressions.
Of course the Torah which is mercy understands human tendencies.
If a Jewish Dutch guy wasn’t embarrassed to admit he was a pedophile, because that is what he is & his country permits consenting parties at age 12 [not 100% sure of the age]. How many of us would rightfully be posting lock him up take away the keys close down the school he worked in etc.
Obviously this site has nothing to do with Torah, only personal emotions & posters understanding of law.BTW I feel for this guy, but I also feel for the pedophile who gets locked up, because he is a danger to society, he also has a lot of guilt to live with, and unfortunately lacks self control.
Of couse I am not giung to snub you for what you are, but try your best to keep the Torah.

How about if a pedophile would come out of the closet and say the same?

Children cannot consent. Any adult who has sex with a child is committing rape.

But two adult males can consent.

Do you understand the difference?

Think there is a lot of confusion here in the comments section. There is nothing wrong with admitting to BEING GaY. There is an issue with publicly admitting to having gay sex. These are 2 MaJOR differences. If I have a taaveh for something wrong, there is nothing wrong with staing it. Publicly admitting to it is a problem. If an orthodox person says he is gay, he shouldn't be made to feel inadequate or evil. If he piblicaly says he has a boyfriend and is intimate, then that is an issue.

@loshonhora
Having been a victim of childhood sexual abuse for FOUR years from when I was 6 years old, I can tell you firsthand that there's a major difference between homosexuality and pedopehil. I'm honestly appalled at your chutzpah (nerve) and audacity to compare my sexuality to that of a pedophile. We aren't your permission to commit mishkav zochor, and we aren't telling you that were committing mishkav zochor, we are here to tell you that we exist, and the more you continue spewing hatred at us, the more lives you will ultimately ruin.

Chaim Levin (Dovid)
chaim89@gmail.com

How about if a pedophile would come out of the closet and say the same?

Children cannot consent. Any adult who has sex with a child is committing rape.

But two adult males can consent.

Do you understand the difference?

Posted by: Shmarya | June 21, 2011 at 03:38 PM
Shmaryahoo you failed to read my hole post.
Laws of consent vary from country to country.The Toarh doesn't permit consent, the difference is did one person commit a crime? the pedophile or two people?the consentors.
BTW not only does the Torah forbid it, which means nothing to you, most countries in the world forbid it, even in the USA it was forbidden not so long ago.It was also almost universaly punishible by death, less than 2 centuries ago.

Shmaryahoo you failed to read my hole post.
Laws of consent vary from country to country.The Toarh doesn't permit consent, the difference is did one person commit a crime? the pedophile or two people?the consentors.

Really?

Does the Torah prohibit pedophilia?

According to Rabbi Chaim Pinchas Scheinberg, if the pedophile did not penetrate the child, there is no crime committed against the child – meaning many pedophiles would be blameless according to that 'gadol's' view of the Torah.

Do you really want to say that consent is not a legitimate issue?

Nothing personal but what does it mean "i am gay" "we are here to tell you that we exist?
Dosent it mean i am having sex with another man?
I know it has a different term in a political correct crazy world.But which ever way you will put it its all about a guy doing it with another guy.
Just another young confused foolish kid.

@Deremes

Once again, you don't know me, and you don't know about my intimate life. Telling you about my sexual orientation is as equivalent as you wearing religious garb (like a yarmulka) because of the fact that you're proud to be Jewish. And believe me, many (the nazis would be a good starter) take offense to jews based on the senseless hatred you exhibit toward me and the rest of the Jewish gay community.

Chaim Levin (Dovid)
chaim89@gmial.com

Loshonhora--

The age of consent in the Netherlands is 16, just as it is throughout Canada and in many of the US States. The Netherlands does tolerate consensual sex between the ages of 12 and 16 IF (and only if) both parties are of similar age, that is, two young people whose 'experimentation' gets out of hand. In the Netherlands sex, consensual or not, between an adult and a child under 16 is a crime, punishable by imprisonment. Sex between an adult (a pedophile) and a child of 12 is under all circumstances a crime. I don't know where you got the idea that it is legal in the Netherlands for an adult to have consensual sex with a 12 year old. In fact nowhere in Europe is it legal for an adult to have sex with a 12 year old, although in Spain the age of consent is 13.

BTW in most of Mexico (particularly in the states that border the US), the age of consent varies from puberty to 14, so pedophiles might want to take note--although it is possible to prosecute those who have sex with young people up to the age of 18 if consent is obtained by deceit or seduction (such as false promises of marriage).

Chaim, you have a disease.

I hope that one day they will find a cure.

I also hope that you will spend your time lobbying politicians, not for gay marriage or gay rights, but for research into the causes of your illness so that you can one day be cured of it.

Not agreeing with you is not called hate.
The Torah says ins NOT allowed for a man to have sex with another man.

Again,these are confused kids who are taking facts and meaning and twisting into new terms to fit their agenda.

@ Dascalomondrowlebowitz | June 21, 2011 at 04:46 PM -

his attraction to same sex is just as natural as your attraction to the opposite sex.

so either you're both diseased or neither of you are.

as an aside, you're a jerk.

Shmaryahoo you failed to read my hole post.
Laws of consent vary from country to country.The Toarh doesn't permit consent, the difference is did one person commit a crime? the pedophile or two people?the consentors.

Really?

Does the Torah prohibit pedophilia?

According to Rabbi Chaim Pinchas Scheinberg, if the pedophile did not penetrate the child, there is no crime committed against the child – meaning many pedophiles would be blameless according to that 'gadol's' view of the Torah.

Do you really want to say that consent is not a legitimate issue?

Posted by: Shmarya | June 21, 2011 at 03:54 PM

First of all I have not seen that Posek's tshuvah, so I can not go by what you say.However all poskim and I can't believe he is different have a problem with exposure which is not tznius, also a Torah requirement, & all have a problem with masturbation, which again is forbidden.
I could hear that what he was referring to, is the death sentance of homosexuality would apply only to someone who sodomized another, & that would include a pedophile, but there is definatly no posek who permits pedophilia. I challenge you to find one posek.{Of course marriage age etc, halachically & legaly may differ.]

@loshonhora
Having been a victim of childhood sexual abuse for FOUR years from when I was 6 years old, I can tell you firsthand that there's a major difference between homosexuality and pedopehil. I'm honestly appalled at your chutzpah (nerve) and audacity to compare my sexuality to that of a pedophile. We aren't your permission to commit mishkav zochor, and we aren't telling you that were committing mishkav zochor, we are here to tell you that we exist, and the more you continue spewing hatred at us, the more lives you will ultimately ruin.

Chaim Levin (Dovid)
chaim89@gmail.com

Posted by: Chaim Levin | June 21, 2011 at 03:47 PM

I was not refriing to you being what you claim to be, thanks now I have an explanation who may have caused it.
I am referring to what isn't permitted halachically, both of them are forbidden, where as the adults both get a death sentance if they sdo it, not think about it. In the case of the pedophile only the adult who siodomized is killed, not the poor child.
If you do nothing just feel an orientation, why are different to a pedophile who does nothing just has an orientation?
That was & is my point.

"Nothing personal but what does it mean "i am gay" "we are here to tell you that we exist?
Dosent it mean i am having sex with another man?"

No, deremes, "I am gay" does not mean "I am having sex with another man." "I am gay" means that "I am predominantly sexually attracted to people of my own sex." Having a sexual attraction does not equal having sex. I am heterosexual, but as I am no longer married, I am not having sex with anyone. Just so, a gay man may have sexual interest in another man (or men), but not be having sex with him (them). A gay man can be married to a woman, have sex and children with her, and still be sexually attracted to other men with whom he does not have sex.

The concept of being a homosexual, that is, of constructing an identity around same-sex preference, is a quite recent one. Prior to that time and all the way back to antiquity, men and women had sex with same sex partners, but that did not determine their identity or necessarily set them apart from everyone else. In ancient Greece it was normative for older men to become patrons of promising younger men and to, among other things, have sexual encounters with them. BTW these encounters were generally femoral intercourse and did NOT involve anal penetration. These same men had wives and children and would not have even understood the concept of being a homosexual. In Viking Scandinavia there was no stigma attached to being the active partner in anal intercourse, although there was to being the passive partner. Men forced to live for extended periods of time in same sex environments (such as long sea voyages or in prison) often have same sex physical encounters, yet when these same men hit the shore or are released, they resume their usual opposite sex activities. They would certainly not identify as homosexuals.

In short having sex with another man does not necessarily make a man a homosexual, while a man who is exclusively attracted sexually to other men is, in current parlance, a homosexual, even if he has never had an actual physical same sex encounter in his life.

BTW male-male sexual activity is not confined to anal intercourse, but can take a variety of forms. If the prohibition is of a man lying with another man as with a woman, then that needs interpretation, since it is impossible for a man to lie with another man as with a woman, that is for two men to have vaginal intercourse as a man does with a woman. So which of the possible male-male sexual activities are proscribed and which might not be? Certainly on other issues the sages have split hairs finer than that.

"Gay Orthodox Jew" is the same misnomer and oxymoron as "Adulterous Orthodox Jew".

Not denying that you are gay and if you are that's your life and purgative. What I do have questions on are how do you call yourself and orthodox Jew.

Posted by: Dave | June 21, 2011 at 02:23 PM

not sure what you and others are saying

being gay is not a crime or a sin according to the torah all he said is that he is attracted to men that is not an avera. He did not admit to anything else. so just like when ayid gets caught stealing all you guys scream one must zoche lacav zuchus (hey i cannot even spell English) why not in this case

amazing how the frummies know to least about the torah.

And why treat this differently than any other avira. To be punished one must caught him in the act with two witnesses and telling him what the punishment will be, only then can man punish someone. Why not the same anger at child molesters, criminal money launderers

otherwise it is up to god, so leave it to god.

"Gay Orthodox Jew" is the same misnomer and oxymoron as "Adulterous Orthodox Jew".

Posted by: Joseph | June 21, 2011 at 05:24 PM

interesting

convicted criminal, fraudsters, money launderer Orthdox Jew is a misnomer and oxymoron

why do I never hear that for a frum person?

How about if a pedophile would come out of the closet and say the same?

Most if not all Pedophiles are straight !!!

What about charedi rabbis (who are supposedly straight kissing each other and their talmidim) who exhibit weird social (and un-male) tendencious that does not exist publicly in the gay community ??? Except maybe at a gay pride parade.

Doesn't anyone have a problem with that !!!! Well, i do.

Chaim you are a true inspiration. Its all about accepting people for who they are and not judging them for what they do. You go guy! You've shown me its not who you are outside that counts, but who you can be inside. I myself will start living the life I was destined to live, and as I sit here enjoying a hamster up my colon and my horse's rectum lubed up in the barn, I hope you will all invite me into your homes and accept me as one of you even though I was born with the ability to communicate with animals and engage with them in the deepest ways. I am Noach Doolittle. Yes I am frum and yes I learn and daven yadda yadda yadda. But as you read this know that there are people that lie about things that are untrue, like animals cannot consent, that is ridonkulus, I talk to them and they do answer and they do communicate and they do love. Shame on those who do not accept that. I know, I know, the Torah forbids it but why should I struggle? Why should I suffer? Thanks Chaim, youve given me the answer - I shouldn't. Thank you for be a light unto the light on their feet. Polo anyone?

@kish mich

Whenever I say your name my thoughts that I'd like to communicate to you are complete. Kiss my ass.

Chaim Levin
chaim89@gmail.com

If the faygs are gonna get accepted I'm gonna start a dick flavored lollipop company, and makes tons of cash. Lemons? Lemonade!

To all the heterro haters, you can claim gay is not a crime, and I agree, however, it is 10000% an assault on family values. You show me a guy who can guess the flavor of a lollipop by sitting on it and I will show you a bad father.

Kish Mich,

Do you enjoy kissing your Rosh Yeshiva when you see him ?? And does he enjoy kissing you ?? A manly handshake and possibly a hug is not good enough !!!

@kish mich
What in the world are you talking about? How are 2 people who love each other a threat to family values?

And honestly, your examples of twisted sexual fantasies that your posting here are disgusting an inhumane.

Chaim -
I trust you have the maturity and restraint to ignore the hatred spewed by SOME on this comment section. You have my genuine love, acceptance, and support. You are a brave soul. I respect your decision to admit you are gay, even though I can never condone any acts of gay sex. I realize that these two concepts are mutually exclusive, and just because you are oriented towards being gay, is separate from acts of homosexuality. I just hope that the rest of the frum community can accept those that are oriented towards homosexuality, and in turn, that the gay community should never expect anyone to condone ACTS of homosexuality, as the acts are against the Torah, but the orientation is God given.

It's good to know that you and all of the gay haters are kissing someone other then your wife. And its not a female. Yeech !! "How gay" !!

Chaim it amazes me that you feign to take offense to the "hatred" in the article, and respond on one of the most hate filled and anti-semitic websites in history. Secondly, you claim not to be "shoving" your homosexuality down "anyone's throat", but then you continue to explain that you want to be an inspiration to the closeted masses. Well which is it? Lastly, my issue with the homosexual community has NOTHING to do with their sexual orientation. To each their own. However, I have never witnessed such a hate filled group of people, constantly making senseless accusations against any person that does not share their views! If only you held yourself to the same standards that you expect shown to you, when you criticize religion! If you want to be gay and live your life by YOUR standards, enjoy, just don't force ME to accept it.

Only in your dreams! Chaimelle, I'm honored! Your acknowledgement is a great chizuk. I'll set aside the realities and keep it simple because I know you've got a nail appointment to run to. Being frum means not engaging in gay sex. Period. Just like I can dream about a hundred women and not be frum if I pop all of them, you cannot be frum while popping dudes. But who am I to judge? That's your Maker's job and He is very good at it. Best of luck. And lest anyone think this anything but entertainment in the blogosphere, Chaim, try paying a hottie like Riley Steele a few grand - she will convert your ass quicker than you can say astroglide!

just don't force ME to accept it

Don't force my boss to hire you because you would refuse to shake hands with my head of personnel who happens to be a woman.

Get a life.

So Chaim can't be judged but he can judge me? (well, not me, but the made up me posting here to get his undies all knotted). You see the hypocritical zeitgeist? To Chaim, bestiality is sick, but even a cursory investigation on the internet yields thousands of bestiality sites for...drumroll...people into bestiality. So drawing the line where its convenient is sick. ANSWER (process as shmarya says) Hetero is the only way to go, don't move the line, because you'll never stop. Chaim, just out of curiosity, is the receiver of manshvontz chayiv in asher yotzar after his hebro finishes his um, deed?

Chaim Levin, presumably of Shevet Levi, you are way over-matched. Kish Mich ain't even trying that hard and he's got you all flummoxed.

And no more Maaser Rishon for you!

To Chaim Levin (Dovid),

One man with courage is a majority [Andrew Jackson], and that is you.

The hate mongers in the orthodox world, of which there seem to be no shortage, can convulse all they want. Frumma yidden seem to need a reason to hate someone, anyone, all the time.

If the frum leadership cared at all, they could easily find loopholes and reinterpret whatever biblical passages they needed to in order to make homosexuality a nonissue; a modus vivendi would be reached.

If there was money in it for the rabbis, homosexuality would be declared de rigueur by the orthodox.

Chaim Levin, be whatever kind of Jew you want to be, of any denomination. Uber-orthodox Judaism is still several generations behind the rest of civilization; they are still in the same league with the fanatical Islamic crowd. I'm sure you know that already.

By all means, write a blog, start a website, whatever it takes to get the word out. And march in the parade this Sunday!

All the best to you!

Posted by: Kish Mich | June 21, 2011 at 06:20 PM

Lets see if I can understand you.

You lost every logical and factual argument. You could not answer any point I made. All you have left is your name calling.

What you write – and how you write it – is against the Torah you claim to be upholding.

The mental illness on display here from the frumma, along with their usual vulgarity, is no surprise. It only serves as the daily confirmation of who and what they are.

Kish Mich-

Your psychobabble proves that you are an idiot and your understanding of life, in a way equals the Nazi philosophy.

PS why would i kiss you, are you gay?

OMG, you of all people should know that the moment you infuse Nazi into the bloggery you've played your last card. Bottom line is you can't live a Torah life and plow dudes up the poop chute. And I don't have to accept it. Fagboy makes a post above about how two people who love each other is in symmetry with family values. How foolishly gay. Raising a child with two fathers and no mother , aside of the biological challenge, is no more natural than raising a child with a cousin and the bartender up the block.

And remember boys, if God wanted you to ream another dude in the ass, He would have made it self-lubricating like the vaginya!

Posted by: Kish Mich | June 21, 2011 at 08:17 PM

Again, you have lost EVERY logical and factual argument.

All you have left is your name calling – which, as I pointed out previously, is against the Torah and is considered by halakha as a far easier thing to control than one's sex drive.

Yet you continue to hurl epithets.

You don't follow the Torah you claim to be upholding, and your actions are truly pathetic.

Go Chaim! I'm so glad there was a response that that horrible article. Your point about utilizing Torah as a means to justify homophobia is very important and I believe is the key to breaking down barriers in the frum community between homosexuals and heterosexuals. Kol HaCavod!

Amen Kish Mich! Keep up the good work!

100 bucks says Chaim and Shmarya are shtuppin right now. I bet Chaim is the one givin it while Shmarya is takin it up his asshole.

This is what bothers me about the whole "it gets better campaign" (and the gay community to an extent). They claim it's an anti bullying video, which is a noble and wonderful cause, but it takes watching it once to realize it is nothing short of propaganda. During the NBA playoffs they ran a "it gets better" commercial (on ESPN3). The gist was that it was a bunch of celebrities encouraging homosexuals based on personal experiences (or else how would they know it gets better.......). After several no-namers and Lady Gaga say their piece, Woody (yes of Toy Story fame) pops on the screen to let all those young homosexuals know that it truly gets better. Woody? What age demographic were they targeting with Woody? All those six year old gays? How many six year old's get bullied because they're gay? They weren't encouraging six year old gays that it's OK that they're gay, there aren't any six year old gays!!! Obviously, the intent was to encourage six year old's TO BE gay (which is the point of all those commercials, that being gay is special, being hetro is wrong)!

8:17 and 8:45 are excellent examples of what yeshiva education is all about.

And remember boys, if God wanted you to ream another dude in the ass, He would have made it self-lubricating like the vaginya!

Posted by: Kish Mich | June 21, 2011 at 08:17 PM

and that is why it is not the norm. god make errors (not saying it is just making a point) all the time look how many children are born with birth defects. So god can create some people who are attracted to the same sex


according to you birth defects should be impossible.

Or maybe god created some gays and wanted to see how his flock behaves towards them he wants to see if people like you would show tolerance to his creations .

PS you failed

Posted by: Kish Mich | June 21, 2011 at 08:17 PM

“OMG, you of all people should know that the moment you infuse Nazi into the bloggery you've played your last card.”
For once you are right, I tried to use my last card, hopping the shock treatment will induce your brain to work again, but I failed. Now that I used up the last wastage of hope I had, I resign to the fact that you are a lost cause, without any brains to boot.

Chaim,
If these people judge you they have no time to love you. Yasher Koach for speaking out so articulately, honestly and courageously.
Kol Hakavod. <3

And to the "frum" Yidden who have left comments: I am ashamed to be included in this group of hateful and judgemental Jews. This is disgusting. What a horrible representation of our people.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pedophilia
A pedophile is a phsycological disorder, & doesn't aaaaalways mean they acted on their desire, and there is no cure. Homosexuality was also defined as a phsycological disorder until recent. Homosexuality was ilegal universally until this century. In most countries it carried a death sentance in the 19th century & before that.
The argument of orientation is new, & I can neither deny or agree to it. See aboms.org for that argument, & other ststistics.
The age of consent varies from State to stae & country to country, but the Torah forbids anything of either nature out of Wedlock, or at least official Poligamy.
My above argument of the closet pedophile is also a case of strugle with orientation, and no cure,not acts the guy performed. For that matter they may have performed themin a state or country where it is legal. some claim that the other problem has a cure, just political laws changed the rules.
that said the Torah forbids all of those & all the nibul peh above.
On a practical levelif the world had just Semour Chaims & Shmayahs, the human race will be extinct in less than 100 years from now.Unless of course they change their minds and build families.
@loshonhora
Having been a victim of childhood sexual abuse for FOUR years from when I was 6 years old, I can tell you firsthand that there's a major difference between homosexuality and pedopehil. I'm honestly appalled at your chutzpah (nerve) and audacity to compare my sexuality to that of a pedophile. We aren't your permission to commit mishkav zochor, and we aren't telling you that were committing mishkav zochor, we are here to tell you that we exist, and the more you continue spewing hatred at us, the more lives you will ultimately ruin.

Chaim Levin (Dovid)
chaim89@gmail.com

Posted by: Chaim Levin | June 21, 2011 at 03:47 PM
That comment may explain how your orientation [in your mind] was ruined see aboms.org for that one.If you see that Wikipedia above you will understand the pedophile strugles more than you, he acn't even get legal consent in this country, but if he didn't act he is no different to you. Both have a yetzer Hora, for stuff the Torah forbids, bother suffer & strugle with it.
Why in the last twenty years they have given equl rights to homos & still severly punish pedophiles, when both have what you call an orientation, is because it is imposible to accept violations of children, and they can not consent.
The fact the Torah forbids homosexuality doesn't seem to bother you, the fact that all religeons forbid it, & all countries once forbade it, are all non-issues to you.
Now again Chaimel I hope you go for therapy for that child abuse & if the sick pedophile [orientated] monster is still on this earth sue him ,& have him put away so that other children remain safe.[not because he must be punished he has a sick orientation & no self control]. Go to a high class Orthodox therapist [Like Doctor Twersky] on the monster's dime, & get yourself sorted out. Don't let that experience steal your future generations from you. Pray to G-d, & I promise you that at your age you have a great chance to build a beutiful Yiddishe family, & help others come out of the closet & straighten up and build families.
please don't give up. If I could help you please let me know I may email you.
Thanks & good luck.


"I was not refriing to you being what you claim to be, thanks now I have an explanation who may have caused it." (loshonhora)

being a victim of childhood sexual abuse doesn't "turn" anyone gay, you idiot.

Well said, Chaim. Thank you for again for selflessly standing up against the truly shameful, giving a voice to the voiceless and hope to the hopeless.

"I was not refriing to you being what you claim to be, thanks now I have an explanation who may have caused it." (loshonhora)

being a victim of childhood sexual abuse doesn't "turn" anyone gay, you idiot.

Posted by: Sara | June 21, 2011 at 10:33 PM

aboms.org, brings medical proof it does. It explains that everyone is born straight, however the first sexual experience forms the orientation, if someone as a child was abused by someone of the same gender they will very likly turn gay.
B4 name calling do research, if you want to disagree, that is anothrer point. To those who disagree with the Torah, I guess you belong to another religeon.

http://www.aboms.com/
This is unfortunatly a Christian site, but hoemes kabeil mmi sheamoro.


I am quite happy to proceed through life blissfully unaware of other people's copulatory preferences. The fact you announce when you advertise that you're "gay" is that you're in the market for another homosexual with whom to do whatever it is you do. Straight people have no need or desire to know about your sexuality. So please keep it to yourself. Thank you.

I once heard a great rav here in Brooklyn when asked if a homosexual is better off commiting suicide or practicing homosexuality he answered that suicide is advisable. He explained that the quicker a gay leaves this world the less he will have to spend time in hell in the afterlife. It is a very serious offense in Judaism so I could see the reason the rabbi advised homosexuals to rather die on the young side instead of so many sins accumulating.

An attraction to other men is no more natural than an attraction to children or animals.

Alternately, you can say it is natural, but it is a natural, genetic illness like muscular dystrophy.

The homosexual attraction has brought joy to no one. Gay is the worst misnomer I ever heard.

Sadly, sufferers from this disease decided to make it a lifestyle way back. If not, perhaps the basis could have been found and dealt with years ago.

Refuah shelema, Chaim.

Interesting that you were abused as a child. I don't think that can change your orientation but perhaps I am wrong.

Whoever did it belongs in jail and if the statute of limitations hasn't passed you should report it.

Chaim, I'm in awe of you and all your fellow Queer Orthodox Jews. I can't even fathom what it's like to be queer in the orthodox community. I had enough trouble being a Queer Reform Jewish Girl with an affinity for ritual. Ironically the harder part of my identity to deal with was not my sexuality but my affinity for ritual oh the joys of Liberal Judaism. In my eyes you should be honored not for you activism(It really is commendable but it shouldn't be what defines you) but for your drive to truly be your self. We need some how to get both sides of the issue to see that we are not here to be hated or revered by anyone. We are here to come as we are and be true to ourselves in every single action we partake in.

Chaim L: please accept my admiration and support for your brave choice to open yourself intentionally to the vitriol spewed by some here, and I'm sure in so many other walks of life. May we all be so blessed to live our lives as our authentic selves and to let our brothers and sisters in humanity live as their authentic selves without harassment and humiliation.

Chaim Levin - Kol Hakavod to you for putting yourself out there and trying to pave the way to help others who are struggling as you did. You are very brave. Your courage is highly admirable.

Please pay no attention to the mindless haters who comment on this site. They do nothing but prove your points and show how hateful and homophobic Frum Society is towards people who are not 100% like them. History will vindicate you.

I'm sorry for all the pain that the frum world put you through. And I sincerely hope that with time and with efforts like yours frum society will change for the better so that others wont have to suffer at the hands of the frum world as you did.

Yasher Koach for all that you've done. Great job!

Special to the failed messiah. Nice.
Failed messiah is now the destination for orthodox jewish intelligent dissent.
Many of those crude, semaphoric posts above are annoying. However, the lack of censorship here is wonderful.

The hate mongers in the orthodox world, of which there seem to be no shortage, can convulse all they want. Frumma yidden seem to need a reason to hate someone, anyone, all the time.

If the frum leadership cared at all, they could easily find loopholes and reinterpret whatever biblical passages they needed to in order to make homosexuality a nonissue; a modus vivendi would be reached.

If there was money in it for the rabbis, homosexuality would be declared de rigueur by the orthodox.

Once again, WSC hits it on the head. And, of course, yet gain, the frum trolls strive to outdo one another in their idiocy. If there is a God, he certainly seems to prefer imbeciles, as he's created so many of them.

Chaim, permit me to add my "Kol HaKavod" as well.

Go Chaim we all love you.
just since you gut fucked in your ass you lost your brain

The frumma are fascinated with anal sex. I wonder why.

i once asked a mo rabbi if its better for a chusid to practice pedophillia in the mikva or hide in his house and do it . he said he should just commit suicide and god will forgive him

Kish Mich is the One True 'Mo.

Chaim as another gay Jew who grew up in Crown Heights and am out as being gay, I am very proud of you !

Chaim as another gay Jew who grew up in Crown Heights and am out as being gay, I am very proud of you !


Posted by: Gavin | June 22, 2011 at 07:40 AM
Were you taught to be that over there?

Shmarya

Congratulations on again hosting an important piece on a contemporary issue. May you continue to go from strength to strength

Chaim - strength to you, and thank you for your courage. two asides - 1. You CAN live a life immersed in Torah. We will welcome you. 2. Your point about not asking one about personal things (like not asking a woman if she is a niddah) is in fact central to certain aspects of the recent CJLS rulings on homosexuality - I invite you to read the tshuvot.

@ loshonhora

you are so not worth the time. No one "turns" gay. They are born that way, so whether they were molested or not has no bearing on them being gay. Google *that*.

Anecdotally, as a survivor myself, I know tons of other survivors who were molested and didn't "turn" gay. And I know plenty of gay men (and women, for that matter) who were never molested.

Interesting that you chose a xtian site for your information. Try one that doesn't have a religious agenda. The APA, for example.

So my statement still stands. You're an idiot.

you are so not worth the time. No one "turns" gay. They are born that way, so whether they were molested or not has no bearing on them being gay. Google *that*.

Anecdotally, as a survivor myself, I know tons of other survivors who were molested and didn't "turn" gay. And I know plenty of gay men (and women, for that matter) who were never molested.

Interesting that you chose a xtian site for your information. Try one that doesn't have a religious agenda. The APA, for example.

So my statement still stands. You're an idiot.

Posted by: Sara | June 22, 2011 at 09:29 AM
Mutov shyehai shoiteh kol yomov veal yechtah paam achas.
Better be an idiot your whole life than sin one time. So beeter a life time idiot than a onetime homo or pedophile who acts out their desires.
That doesn't really mean you are an idiot, it means that you are not complacent to others sins so they look at you an idiot.

@ chaim,

I have a serious question as i seem to be missing something. you claim u r doing nothing wrong by stating that u r gay, which is right, according to the torah u r doing nothing wrong. However, by stating that ur gay, it automatically implies that u r not having sexual relations with woman and therefore when u have sexual relations, it is with a man, which is straight out from the torah wrong. While i understand the pain that u must b going through, it not correct to b stating that being gay in the orthodox community is ok.

The only thing I noticed here is Chaim's picture and his remarkable resemblance to Buddy Holly.

The only thing I noticed here is Chaim's picture and his remarkable resemblance to Buddy Holly.

Posted by: PishPosh | June 22, 2011 at 11:22 AM
SAD THING IS BUDDY HOLLY DIED AT 23, & NOT FROM SUICIDE.

To Chaim Levin (Dovid)
chaim89@gmial.com

I really dont hate u. However when i was young i had the smae problems as u had and i was confused and gay. Young i mean as 14 years old. Being that my upbringing was in chasidesher yeshivos i was thought nothing about these issue. When i was 15 i leared the gmuru in msecthe shaboos daf chof alef on a story similar or eaxactly to the issue noted and he said "yumis zackai val yumis chayiv and he shouldnt lose olem habu". Now i made my decision then that i will do everthing in the world but not lose my olem habu, i started learning with big hasmudu i can say i leared as a bucher most of the entire shas and shlichon urich. My head was in torha not in shtusim i was learning day after day what im supposed to do to be observent jew and not c/v lose my olem habu. Today im married with 6 children and i work earn alot of money and learn love my wife and children and hopefuly i will be zocha to chaya olem habu. i still dont know if i had a deseas or it was a yetzer huru. Im proud of myself that i did that was supposed to. Now to u Chaim i realy feel horrible for u more that u are losing your olem habu beacuse thing of these gay is also forbidden and what does a yetzer huru mean to u, and yes if heshem created u on this world to suffer and thats why u are here, then tobad u have to accept that and work your whole life with a way that u should be zoche lolem habu. If u dont believe in this then nebech u are an apikores because doing mishcav zucher is forbiddin and it is KURES. I can tell u from my experience its never too late u can start today and u should be studeing thorah a whole day and force yourself out of it and if u can start slowly to get out of it it might work for u better. In the end i realy hope and pray for you, you should see the light and shine of the torah and be zocha lechaya olem habu and get out of this.

Barry

Chaim,

Thank you for your work, both in the video and through your writing. May it help spare future generations the pain and anguish so many have gone through, Jewish and non-Jewish, frum and otherwise.

Thank you.

Barry -
i dont believe a word of what you wrote.

I just did not understend something.Did you get FUCKED in the Ass or your brain is Fucked up ?

@question,
Your argument is flawed in so many ways but I'll give you one pointer. You claim that by saying I'm gay it automatically means that I'm having sex with men because I'm definitely having sex with woman.... Once again, if it wasn't obvious from my original statement, since when does my intimate life have to do with you? It's between me and god. Tznius anyone???? Since when are we talking about sex in such a public forum?

Chaim Levin
chaim89@gmail.com

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