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May 16, 2011

Women! Move To The Side! Another Modesty Edict From Williamsburg

Women's Modesty Pashkvil Williamsburg 5-15-11 low res cropped "A Jewish woman conducts herself modestly when she is outside in the streets…When a male is approaching, when a male comes towards you in a store, MOVE YOURSELF TO THE SIDE."

Originally published 10:35 pm CST 5-15-11.

From the Satmar stronghold of Williamsburg, Brooklyn, NY, photographhed this weekend by a reader:

Esteemed and Revered Jewish Daughter
 
Protect your title the "daughter of the king"
 
A Jewish woman conducts herself modestly when she is outside in the streets:
 
* When a male is approaching
* When a male comes towards you in a store
 
MOVE YOURSELF TO THE SIDE
 
* She also doesn't talk loud, nor does she talk on her cellphone when on the streets or in stores.
 
Like the verse says:
"The true honor of a princess is inside"
----------------------
 
(Psalms 45:14)

Women's Modesty Pashkvil Williamsburg 5-15-11 low res cropped

Comments

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this is getting embarrassing for us jews.

Ditto. Let's excommunicate them.

And this bothers whom?people who live 100s of miles outside williamsburg but if some women in williamsburg doesn't have what to eat you guys dont care then you dont fight for her ,well guess what they dont get offended and so didnt hilary

JICKY, if the people behind these modesty campaigns would have spent all the costs of printing and posting these misogyny ads to feed the poor local women there would be no hugnry mouths in Williamsburg!!

well guess what ?there are no hungry mouth there they help each other even if they are from different parties and from the other side you will never see by the fria people helping other jews they dont care

nicest people ever around and thats all from rabbi yolish he thought them how you do chesed ,i feel your pain but thats a fact

If there are no hngry mouths in Williamsburg why did YOU ask if we cared about them??

You are talking from both sides of your mouth!

because they are been taking care of

they dont need your help loi meiktzoch vloi medivshoch

I hope when they are done "helping" those hungry women, they will take their time to help you with arguing and debating..

oh please - there's no love lost from my part for williamsburg (willi-town is it?) but this type of poster was probably put up by some crazy lunatic... although the gist of what is stated there (don't be loud on the streets!) is accepted behavior there... it is NOT from the mainstream - such posters.

they dont have to I can handle myself BH and so can they ,their hands will only be full when your type will come to them for help they will turn over every rock to help you even they will know that you hate them with passion

What brass-plated flaming Board-certified raw gum bullshit.

These woman-hating trogs should be hanged by the gazengas.

And jicky isn't talking out of both sides of his mouth. No way.

Each half of his forked tongue is talking out a different side of his ass.

Jicky, Its nice to see you follow your false dilemma with false optimism...

Doing chesed doesnt give one the carte blanche to also be oppressive and misogynisitc...

to A. Nuran

Abraham Lincoln said rather let people think you are stupid then open your fat mouth and take away all doubts

And this bothers whom?people who live 100s of miles outside williamsburg but if some women in williamsburg doesn't have what to eat you guys dont care then you dont fight for her ,well guess what they dont get offended and so didnt hilary

Posted by: jicky | May 15, 2011 at 11:09 PM


Because jewish woman are suffering at the hands of the taliban with peyos.

Is there any particular reason why the man can't move himself to the side?

Give us a break: Jicky (what a nickname??) is not making a false dilemma. It is consistent to have "hungry mouths", and to have everyone chipping in to feed those "hungry mouths". That they are now, for the moment "former hungry mouths" hardly means that Jicky is talking out of both sides of *his* mouth. If true, that chesed extends to all 'hungry mouths' this does not mean he said anything inconsistent so long as we interpret his clumsy wording in context.

Lincoln also said

“What kills a skunk is the publicity it gives itself.”

Churchill said

“Criticism may not be agreeable, but it is necessary. It fulfils the same function as pain in the human body. It calls attention to an unhealthy state of things.”

Rebeccah West said

"I myself have never been able to find out what feminism is; I only know that people call me a feminist whenever I express sentiments that differentiate me from a doormat or a prostitute."

Hopefully the skunk of Yolishism which requires women to be treated as doormats if they are not to be regarded as prostitutes is an unhealthy state of mind which must be killed by painful criticism and ridicule

Ok, so Jews are taking care of their own hungry-mouthed people. Cool. Is there any reason why the men can't step to the side instead of the women, for these modesty purposes?

Barry, Emmylou; good points. How would you attempt a structured conversation on this subject?

By having someone answer the question?

Of course, you see: If men would have to step aside for women, they would have women in mind, and their minds are too small to have both women and Thora in it, let alone at the same time.

This masterpiece of Jewish thought goes a long way to answering many questions:

Why is the "Merchant of Venice" comedy?
Why did the Eternal allow the Shoah to occur?
Why do the gojim fail to understand anything about halacha?
Would the world be better with a few million Jews more?...

Yoel, if the hungry mouths are being cared for within the community there is no need for other communities to bring attention to it.

Yet Jicky first used the lack of showing concern for the hungry mouths as an argument why we shouldnt care for the women when they are treated like second class citizens.
Then proceded to say that the very people who are behind the modesty campaigns are the people who take care of the hungry mouths.

How is this not a false dilemma or not talking from both sides of the mouth?

But which side do they move to? There should be navigation rules such as they have for aircraft. These would be highly amenable for conversion to avoiding men, just make the appropriate word substitution e.g:

o Spend 70% of pilot (chassidista) time scanning the skies (the ground) using a series of short, regularly spaced eye movements in 10° sections alternately looking both near and far, horizontally and vertically.

o If there is no apparent motion between the aircraft you are piloting and another aircraft, then both are probably on a collision course.

o Be aware of your aircraft's blind spots.

o Before beginning a manoeuvre, make clearing turns while carefully scanning the area for other aircraft.

o When faced with an aircraft approaching head-on, both aircraft are required to alter the course to the right.

o When overtaking another aircraft flying in the same direction and on the same course, the aircraft being overtaken has the right-of-way, therefore pass well clear of it on the right.

o When two aircraft are converging or approaching from the side, the aircraft to the left must give way to the aircraft on the right.

o A general right-of-way rule states that the least manoeuvrable aircraft has the right-of-way.

That is very sad. I live in a world where men don't seem to be thinking about Torah, or Koran, and if they do, they are still chivalrous toward women in a country where polite manners are expected. They step aside for women, elderly, and children. They open doors, they extend grace. They are gentlemen. Who are these ruffians that expect women to step aside for men? I am told to expect this treatment if I visit an Arab country. Are men in Jewish Brooklyn communities so much like what I hear about Arab men? If so, why?

The man is superior. That is why the woman should step aside. (Woman have rights and should be respected as human beings but...) Many times I am forced to step aside and it is kind of annoying knowing all to well that it was intentional. Otherwise I have no issue to move aside for anyone; not even... never mind.

David:
Maneuver.

Emmylou
This is the greatest country in the world.com; ethics and polite manners are exceptional traits.
However, religious customs suggest certain behavior of its followers. This is a notion you either get or don't. Obviously you are not religious and don't dig this.
The Torah does suggest to respect the elderly. Children should, by all accounts, be taught to respect older people. So your only issue is women. Perhaps you should put in a request to be reincarnated as a male the next time around. For now I share your pain...

Correction
The greatest country in the world; (.com is an auto nuisance)

Yechiel,

If a man feels TRULY superior, why would he have a problem with stepping aside for an "inferior"? For example, I feel mentally superior to a child, and would gladly step aside for a child to pass. I feel physically superior to an elderly person, and would gladly step aside to let him or her pass. Why would a man have a problem stepping aside for anyone that he feels he might be mentally or physically weaker than he is?

Yechiel,

I gladly await your answer.

++ However, religious customs suggest certain behavior of its followers. This is a notion you either get or don't. Obviously you are not religious and don't dig this.++

The fact that I do not follow a particular mode of behaviour does not mean I do not understand it.

I can understand why an infant needs it security blanket and a chossid needs his rebbe without having that psycological need myself.

I can understand why the North Korean 'newspapers' lie and hide reality just as Satmar liepapers do and still challenge those lies.

I can understand the malign influence of sexual jealosy, be it in Barbary Macaque or a Gerrer Chossid without wishing to subject any woman to such backwardness.

At the end of the day, Hareidimism is just another mind control cult whose modus operandi is understood by all but its followers. That does not mean that we must not challenge them or make it hard for them to pass harmful characteristics to their children.

Why are they even outside of their homes in the first place? Harlots!

Jeff,

Someone has to make a living in the family.

well guess what ?there are no hungry mouth there they help each other even if they are from different parties and from the other side you will never see by the fria people helping other jews they dont care

Posted by: jicky | May 15, 2011 at 11:19 PM

you think if you lie it is true. Did you ever do a search and see how many thousands of jewish organazation there are that are not religious?

Of course the frie pay for you food, you pays for the food stamps and other government services that satmar take at an alarming rate.

Yoeli did teach his chassdeim to hate, and blame others that is for sure.

I do not call him rebbie since II am trying to stick to my commitment not to call a frum rebbie, rebbie until the frum will call a Conservative and reform rebbie, rebbie

of course the woman have to move to the side, since when a man sees a woman he immediately Photoshops out of his mind and she does not exist anymore

does she have to move to the side only for a chussid, what about a frei jew and what about a goyish man?

what if she does not know if the person is a jew?


these are important question that they left out

If the women cannot use their cell phones in the stores or on the streets, when are they supposed to use their phones when they leave home?

all it is is (the poster) is freedom of speach! by one person who posted it! is what ?

When I'm driving sometimes and I see a woman in a car approaching I sometimes move to the side.

Only joking...

Jicky, where is your outrage against this demeaning of women - this removing of their rights? Misogyny is as insidious as anti-semitism.

That is very sad. I live in a world where men don't seem to be thinking about Torah, or Koran, and if they do, they are still chivalrous toward women in a country where polite manners are expected. They step aside for women, elderly, and children. They open doors, they extend grace. They are gentlemen. Who are these ruffians that expect women to step aside for men? I am told to expect this treatment if I visit an Arab country. Are men in Jewish Brooklyn communities so much like what I hear about Arab men? If so, why?

Posted by: emmylou | May 16, 2011 at 01:31 AM

Emmylou I'd like to move to place you described. Unfortunately I know it doesn't exist. Also, it is sort of clear to me that you don't understand the purpose of this post. This behavior is not the norm when you consider the the entire Jewish world. It is against Jewish values, culture and religion which is why I believe Shmarya posted this. Things like this happen in pockets of chassidic controlled neighborhoods. Having said that you can't necessarily say EVERYONE in these communities agree just like you cannot believe everything you've "heard" about Arab men.

So, a princess is supposed to step aside to allow a commoner to pass? I thought it was the other way around...

what about a frei jew and what about a goyish man?

I don't think they're allowed in Williamsburg.

If the women cannot use their cell phones in the stores or on the streets, when are they supposed to use their phones when they leave home?

That's the point, I guess; they aren't supposed to be leaving home at all.

Lies , lies, more lies and some manipulation to boot. Notice how they address the Women? "Dear ESTEEMED Jewish daughter". Imagine this, "Dear Esteemed Admor, Shlita, please move aside for the Ballei Batim".

We need to erect new signs in Williamsburg reading:
Daughter, a campaign is afoot to rob you of your liberty, equality and self-worth. You are being shamed into becoming a possession of a group of sexually repressed and immature misogynists. You must fight:

When a man of this type approaches
When a man of this type enters a store
-Move to the side, reach forward, grab his testes, YANK HARD until he crumples, kick repeatedly until satisfied.

well guess what ?there are no hungry mouth there they help each other even if they are from different parties and from the other side you will never see by the fria people helping other jews they dont care

Posted by: jicky | May 15, 2011 at 11:19 PM

What rubbish. go into any church soup kitchen they are helping everyone indiscriminately, what about the red cross? Versus cahreidi fundamentalist jews who only help each other

well guess what ?there are no hungry mouth there they help each other even if they are from different parties and from the other side you will never see by the fria people helping other jews they dont care

Posted by: jicky | May 15, 2011 at 11:19 PM

What rubbish. go into any church soup kitchen they are helping everyone indiscriminately, what about the red cross? Versus cahreidi fundamentalist jews who only help each other

Posted by: alwaysright | May 16, 2011 at 09:28 AM


alwaysright, the herdie live in a bubble and think that others do not do good deeds and only they do. And they do not care to know see or hear that others do good deeds.
It makes them feel superior that way

Yechiel - the correct spelling is 'manoeuvre'. You are wrong, and suggested a vulgar bastardisation of the word, designed to appeal to semi-literates.

Jicky - please tell me you're not from an english-speaking country, and learned the language from the back of toilet paper wrappers. The alternative, that you were 'educated' in some basement yesh in NY, and yet have the communication skills and reasoning level of someone who isn't upshernish yet, is scary.

Oy our grandparents fought to consign the shtetl to the past, you're holding it as an aspiration. Terrifying. Just remember there were no food stamps or section 8 in the 19th century, so better start weaning yourself off them too.

Emmylou:
I have no issue stepping aside for anyone. Neither do most people I know.
Please answer the following: if you were to meet the president while walking on the street whom would you expect to step aside? Now, say you were incapable of understanding the superiority of the pesident over common folk and decided to continue on in the hopes that the president will be a gentleman and step aside for you; what would you say happens next? Does that make a case that the president is not a gentleman?
Sneak a peek in the bible and see what it says to the lady regarding the man (Genesis...)
Since you are obviously a stranger to such ideas it may be hard to make peace with such cultural behaviors. However most respectful Haredi woman have no problem with that. The poster 'requesting' that women step aside when a man approaches was just a reminder.
Please keep in mind that this site is dedicated to degrade an entire community whose majority of people are very decent people who truly care for one another; even the rivalling factions.
Shmarya, though an honest reporter, is a stranger to many of our cultural matters. The faults he finds are generally the exception; not the rule. The cultural customs he mocks are generally the rule happily abided by and accepted by those within. As I stated in a previous post; you either get it or you don't.
My guess is that if you were to visit a country where people burp to show appreciation to the host or chef, you would by all probability mock them as well.
That is what sets different cultures apart. What is respectful and common to you may be disrespectful or rude in another culture and vice versa. Imagine the world without color... you might as well be a cat...
That is my answer you patiently waited for. Thank you.

It is time to turn the tide. Since men seem to have such difficulty controlling themselves in mixed public, at all times that they are in mixed company, they should instead walk around in very dark sunglasses and a seeing eye dog. This way women can walk around in freedom. Women are the only ones that work in ultra-religious circles anyhow, so this way they can keep the economy going, take jobs, and take care of their families in peace(while the men sit in kollel, seeing eye dogs parked at the door). What do men really have to walk around in public for - it is the women that drive their economy. And I am sure that women won't start pushing extra modesty edicts on men as the men are trying to do with women. I quite like this idea! Problem solved!

Folks,this is it.
People are leaving in droves from the Satmar stronghold of Williamsburg and many are also leaving the entire Jewish religion. They just cant take it anymore that FM is making them look like Taliban's.


"* When a male is approaching
* When a male comes towards you in a store

MOVE YOURSELF TO THE SIDE"

I understand you trying hard to make orthodox Jews look like fools. But you need to be a bit more accurate.

It does not say: MOVE YOURSELF TO THE SIDE
It says : SHE moves to the side

Not that it really matters.But its border line lie.

The women are having difficulties controlling their flashy dressing habits. Dress modestly and no one will notice you...
The women that support their men choose to do so. I do agree that the men that do not perform well in Kollel should man up and go work for an honest living.
Why is it that men are perfectly fine to mingle with men only in public places and don't mind the absence of women, but women always need men in their presence. Men don't argue that they need to be part of ladies gatherings etc....
Just sayin'

That is what sets different cultures apart. What is respectful and common to you may be disrespectful or rude in another culture and vice versa. Imagine the world without color... you might as well be a cat...
That is my answer you patiently waited for. Thank you.

Posted by: Yechiel | May 16, 2011 at 10:12 AM

these is a new craziness.

of course the woman agree to this, they have been brainwashed to be second class citizens since birth

according to you the way woman are treated by the Taliban is ok since the woman agree to it

Shmaya: That picture is clearly cropped not altered. It is perfectly legal to crop a photo. You may have legal problems by saying those Charedim of Ami lied. As a lawyer who specializes in copyright related issues, I would strongly suggest you remove the post, or change the language.

Someone tell the Taliban to forget about Afghanistan. They have a new home in Williamsburg.

Oy our grandparents fought to consign the shtetl to the past, you're holding it as an aspiration. Terrifying.

I couldn't agree more.

to NO LIGHT ALSO CHANGE YOUR NAME TO NO NAME .....
REGARDING Jicky - please tell me you're not from an english-speaking country, and learned the language from the back of toilet paper wrappers. The alternative, that you were 'educated' in some basement yesh in NY, and yet have the communication skills and reasoning level of someone who isn't upshernish yet, is scary.

Im very bussy I realy dont have time for you, english or not I own a company with 85 workers supplying yes you guessed your english speaking country doesn't matter which industry,just stick to the facts and dont start with your english speaking shtisim ,,,,bye gotto run, see your comments after 7,

Jicky, you obviously never learned logic wherever you went to school or in whatever sweatshop you currently manage.

Satmar: "Bitches, walk three paces behind your masters, shut up, and get off the streets when someone with a DICK walks by."

Human beings: "That's disgusting!"

Jicky: "How dare you say that's disgusting? Satmar feeds poor frum women"

Human beings: "What does that have to do with treating half the human race like shit?"

Jicky: "There aren't any starving frum women because the frumma are all generous"

Human beings: "A and not A. This passes for logic in Tallitban circles?"

Jicky: "And I'm rich!"

Human beings: "...."

Suppose we re-wrote it...

Jew Filth

Protect your title the "light unto the Nations"

A Jew conducts himself modestly when he is outside in the streets:

* When a White Man is approaching
* When a White Man comes towards you in a store

MOVE YOURSELF TO THE SIDE

* He also doesn't talk loud, nor does he talk on his cellphone when on the streets or in stores.

I'd do this up as Jim Crow, but many frumma are among the worst racists out there. They'd probably think it was a good idea.

@: A. Nuran | May 16, 2011 at 01:17 PM

excellent.

The archaic language reminded me of something. Did any of you see this one a few years back?

http://blogindm.blogspot.com/2008/01/handel-ehrlekh-wigged-out-photo-blog.html

A. Nuran,
Bravo,sieg heil

Lord help the woman who doesn't step to the side or fails to wear a stocking with a thick seam. First the threats will come against her- warning that she may lose her childrens' place in yeshiva or even shidduch. If that doesn't work, she can expect a friendly visit from the Vaad HazTznius- which can range from financial extortion to physical violence.

jay,
Your wrong.

Not that it CAN get to financial extortion to physical violence for not doing the things you mentioned. But in fact it DID happen i wonder how come FM doesn't have yet the story.

Just yesterday two frum women were stoned like in Afghanistan for not dressing modestly enough.
And if that wasn't bad enough,they threatened the husband that if he doesn't give them a huge sum of money,then they will make sure that no funeral will be held.
I know its hard to believe but this is what it has come to.

Deremes, I'm sure you have a Junior Storm Trooper outfit in your closet and touch yourself while wearing it. There's no reason to advertise the fact.

This is just plain sick! the taliban anyone???? soon we wont be allowed to walk outside! i really wonder what would happen if they were in charge of israel

Apologies to George Thorogood:

On the day I was born
The rabbis all gathered 'round
And they gazed in wide wonder
That no Goy they had found
The rosh yeshiva spoke up
Said "leave this one alone"
He could tell right away
That I was frum to the bone

Frum to the bone
Frum to the bone
F F F F-Frum
F F F F-Frum
F F F F-Frum
Frum to the bone

I make a thousand chumrot
To prove I'm a Jew
I'll make a thousand more, bubbie
Before I am through
I wanna be yours pretty Rebbe
In a woman-free zone
I'm here to tell ya zaydie
That I'm frum to the bone
Frum to the bone
F F F F-Frum
F F F F-Frum
F F F F-Frum
Frum to the bone

SOLO

I make a frum woman swerve
I'll make a good woman kneel
I'll make an old woman hush
And make a young girl crawl
I wanna be yours pretty Rebbe
In a woman-free zone
I'm here to tell ya bubbie
That I'm frum to the bone
F F F F-Frum
F F F F-Frum
F F F F-Frum
Frum to the bone

SOLO 2

And when I walk the streets
Hoes and Queens step aside
Every woman I meet
They all stay stratified
I wanna tell ya pretty Rebbe
Modesty I make my own
I'm here to tell ya bubbie
That I'm frum to the bone
F F F F-Frum
F F F F-Frum
F F F F-Frum
Frum to the bone

Deremes, for the last time- I lived in the NYC Ortho communities. I have friends and family there still. I have first hand reports of the type of abuse that happens. Maybe you haven't seen it. Maybe you turn a blind eye or perhaps you deliberately deceive. I have no way of knowing which it is. Nevertheless, you come here to idealize your community. You deny the hatred spewed about non-Ortho, MO and Religious Zionist Jews as well ,by RW Ortho and Hassidim. Your protestations don't change the truth. They just make you look foolish.

Seymour:
I would argue with you if I felt you comprehend my post in its entirety.
You pick out a few words and ride on that.
I siad "you either get it or you don't". You obviously don't.
I will use my burp analogy: if you were brought up to burp after a meal, you would feel suppressed when eating in a home where burping is a no no. However, since you were raised in a society where burping is frowned upon and considered rude, you have no urge to burp after your meal and it even disgusts you when others do so. You need not be pitied; this is who you are.
Jewish girls are raised in modesty; they have no hardship whatsoever following customs that may make YOU uncomfortable.
As for the Taliban: as long as they don't physically mistreat their women, my stance is the same.

jay,

So if you know all the bad stuff that goes on within the frum community why would you think its not true what i wrote?
I live within the community and know for a fact that its true. And this is only the tip of the ice.
The abuse that goes on,is unbearable.
One out of five boys are molested.
One out of five girls are raped.
One out of three women have abusive husbands.
The rabonnim don't care about anything. They are in favor of children being molested.
If not for FM and NR it would of been much worse

Demeres, I am curious where you have those statistics from. Not to challenge you, I am just curious who cared enough to gather all this information. I take it these are statistics for the charedi community, not the general public?

Next thing they will request is for the woman to lay down on a mud puddle so the men can walk over her!

i dont understand? does any of you people live there?
if the woman doesnt mind and neither does the man, then let them do whatever they like. if you dont like it, you wont live in williamsburg and be part of there community which im sure you arent. if a women there doesnt like it she can leave also. its a free country.
stop complaining and hating of things that have nothing to do with you people. mind your own fuckin business already. you see i dont live in williamsburg, if they make such a sign i just smile in amusement and move on. i dont give a damn about them.
you people should do that too.
i suggest you guys get help in this area here is a start.

Mind Your Own Business: The Battle for Personal Privacy

If I met the president walking down the street, I believe he would step aside. He seems to be a gentleman. If he didn't step aside, I'd consider him boorish. I bet he'd even hold the door open for me, if we were walking into, say, a cafe or convenience store, even perhaps a 24-hour camera shop.

If burping after a meal is customary amongst people I am eating with, I don't see a problem, or an opportunity for mockery. I would try my best to muster up a burp, or try to fake one if a natural burp is not forthcoming, to show my appreciation of the meal.

I do, however, find men that don't defer the right-of-way to women to be ill-mannered.

yochanan- super...i love your use of "stratified".'

: ez-

i dont understand? does you people live here in failed messiahland?
if the blogger doesnt mind and neither does the commenters, then let them do whatever they like. if you dont like it, you wont read FM and be part of there community which im sure you arent. if a reader there doesnt like it she can leave also. its a free country.
stop complaining and hating of things that have nothing to do with you . mind your own fuckin business already. you see you dont live in FM land, if they make such a post just smile in amusement and move on. dont give a damn about them.
i suggest you get help in this area here is a start.

Mind Your Own Business: The Battle for Personal Privacy


Thanks, APC.

Emmylou:
The president does not need to nor should he step aside for you. If he does so out of his free will, then he is definitely a gentleman. It is very egoistic for anyone to expect it though.
I also see that you don't get my analogy. I tried...

That was funny, APC! (minus the French :) )

thanks, rochel, i was just trying to be true to the original post.

i dont understand? does any of you people live there?
if the woman doesnt mind and neither does the man, then let them do whatever they like. if you dont like it, you wont live in williamsburg and be part of there community which im sure you arent. if a women there doesnt like it she can leave also. its a free country.
stop complaining and hating of things that have nothing to do with you people. mind your own fuckin business already. you see i dont live in williamsburg, if they make such a sign i just smile in amusement and move on. i dont give a damn about them.
you people should do that too.
i suggest you guys get help in this area here is a start.

Mind Your Own Business: The Battle for Personal Privacy

Posted by: ez | May 16, 2011 at 05:19 PM

my guess is many woman do mind but since they are not aloud to voice an opinion like that they just keep their mouth shut

A few years ago I read a good book called "The Unchosen". It was an interesting book about the many people in these insular communities that live double lives.

"Winston, a doctoral candidate in sociology at CUNY, unfolds a world-within-a-world, where some young Hasidim sneak televisions into their apartments in garbage bags, change clothes on the subway to frequent bars in Manhattan and blog about their double lives online. She builds fascinating case studies, inviting readers into her interviewees' conflicted, and often painful, lives." I remember the author describing how couples hide a TV in their closet and when they watch it, put blankets up on their windows so no one can see the flicker of their TV lest they be ostracized by the community. Or the guy that shaved his beard and was shunned by his whole family as if he had committed murder. I think what we are saying is that even a modicum of free will is not allowed, which basically proves our point.

Although I don't know what the percentage is, a certain portion of the community has greater or lesser feelings of being trapped but follow along because of fear of reprisal. A fair amount of people, I think, if given the chance, would give up some of the stringency. That says to me that these people keep up this charade out of fear and nothing else.

Rochel:
Some people live double lives. Afraid of reprisal? Of course; if we allow everyone to do as they please the whole community will fall about. Just leave and join a community that will embrace you. The meshugoyim that trim their beards just short of shaving and wear curly sidelocks and streimels are the biggest joke in town. C'mon, make up your mind.
Many of us enjoy the life we live and think nothing of it. You don't have to participate; your free to leave. Yes, your family will distance itself from you. That is just too bad.

Of course; if we allow everyone to do as they please the whole community will fall about.

Posted by: Yechiel | May 16, 2011 at 07:30 PM

What kind of community do you really have if it is only held together by fear?

Of course; if we allow everyone to do as they please the whole community will fall about.

Yep. That's what happens when you live in a house of cards.

Jay, Seymour - why are you feeding the trolls? You won't change them. They're terrified of reality.

Ach, "a bi geredt".

You FM people have no clue about an average woman's life within the Satmar community. When married to a mentch (and that goes for ANY community, jewish or otherwise) women are treated like ladies, lovers, friends and relatives - by the appropriate people.

While a man will not necessarily SHMOOZE with a woman that is not related to him, that same guy, if a "mentch" will ALWAYS help a woman shlep up a carriage, hold open a door etc.

Sure, there are extremists in every society, but by and large, the typical male that has refined midos is VERY respectful and helpful to women... though he probably will not be on shmoozing-terms with her.

But then again, those of you that are so busy enjoying the bashing will never quite "get" that (or "believe" that.) Oh well, at least I tried.

to Rochel
Re What kind of community do you really have if it is only held together by fear?

its called a GOD Fearing community ,
You should know that people who take of their beard and payos in the williamsburg community understand that their family will be angry they just dont think its such a big deal but they defenitley know they are hurting their family and they understand that

Yechiel,

You are correct: any man who steps aside for a woman by their own free will is a gentleman.

Any woman who steps aside for a man because of a sign posted by a man is controlled by men. And any man that thinks that is OK, is not a real man, but a control freak.

The prophecies are crystal clear that all people will turn to G-d. This also applies to the sexes. Men and women are different but equal. In Ganeden Adam and Eve were both proud, strong, natural, loving human beings. One was no less than the other. The core attribute of a man is to be assertive and a woman receptive. Blind, constricting edicts that seek to control for no other reason than limiting another's being should be part of the Dark Ages. In some cultures men like to have their woman walk ten paces behind them. I want my wife to walk beside me.

Sure, there are extremists in every society, but by and large, the typical male that has refined midos is VERY respectful and helpful to women... though he probably will not be on shmoozing-terms with her.

But then again, those of you that are so busy enjoying the bashing will never quite "get" that (or "believe" that.) Oh well, at least I tried.

Posted by: rosey | May 16, 2011 at 10:28 PM

If it's a few extremists, why are posters like the one above even tolerated?

Furthermore, why don't you put your money where your mouth is? Try flaunting some of your group's conventions, then come back and tell us how "respectful" they remained toward you.

Direct quote from my wife:

"My father's not a king, and I'm not a slave."

I have no problem with anyone living an ultra-religious life with stringent rules. I come from the religious world and I know such people. But these people are doing it out of 'want' and not out of 'fear'. That is the crucial difference and that is what is being discussed here.

Funny that this bothers so many Jews, but a woman in a black burqa covering her whole face, being one of multiple wives, subjected to violence (remember the cover of Time or Newsweek, whichever, with the girl who had her nose and ears sliced off for running away from beatings) is just A-OK with so many of you. Leave us alone. We are happy being Jewish queens and being treated as such by our husbands. Don't judge where you've not been, because if you stood in my shoes, you'd want to own them.

PS - My Father IS the kind and I am not a slave to Him, I am a willing server (not servant). When we love someone, we want to do things to make them happy. I want to make G-d happy (my Father) and my lovely husband, who loves me so much, happy. My children - the best! I'll do anything to make them happy. I'm so glad that I'm not just about ME. Sorry for the rest of you, must have miserable lives that you are so judgmental.

oh please, they dont have to step aside because of the sign. nobody is going to arrest them. they want to do it on their own if they are modest woman. this is something not found in other societies, its a foreign concept modest women.

Funny that this bothers so many Jews, but a woman in a black burqa covering her whole face, being one of multiple wives, subjected to violence (remember the cover of Time or Newsweek, whichever, with the girl who had her nose and ears sliced off for running away from beatings) is just A-OK with so many of you.

Typical. I'm sure this is the picture your gedolim have painted of the "apikorsim" and the "Leftists".

It does bother us, in fact, but as we're Jews, this subject is closer to home. Also, the abuses in the frum world comprise the focus of this blog.

Don't judge where you've not been, because if you stood in my shoes, you'd want to own them.

You people always say this sort of thing; choosing to dismiss or ignore completely the people who flee from your way of life in increasing numbers. How do you know what's on the other side of the bridge isn't better? Have you ever known anything else? Or do you get all of your information from baalei teshuvah and your rebbaim?

And, by the way, speaking of burquas:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lRt0ZSdx4WE

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