Satmar Paper Attacks Yeshiva World News

"It is unbelievable that a well known Charedi forum [Yeshiva World News] should spread such a question enabling further instigation and igniting the fire of hatred among Jews - Sinas Yisroel.  Does he think that the non-Jew who reads these articles can distinguish between a kneitsch-hit [hat with a bent down brim, a fedora] and a geshtufina-hit [a hat like Satmar wears with an upturned brim]?"

 

A reader sent in the following translation of the Der Yid attack on Yeshiva World News, which was included in a much longer attack on me.

Notice the attack is based on Yeshiva World asking a question, a question whose answer shows that Di Tzitung's editor, also a Satmar hasid, lied.

Why?

Because Satmar synagogues (and Chabad synagogues and any other hasidic synagogues I've been in) do not usually say the prayer for the government mentioned in the apology. It may be said for show or in a time of extreme need like a war on home soil. But it is not said on any regular basis and it is not said as it was meant to be said by the rabbis who composed it long ago.

That means that Di Tzitung lied to the State Department and the Secretary of State, Hillary Clinton. And it also lied to the Amerian people.

Now, the translation:

Disclaimer:  This is an attempt at translation which may contain slight deviations from Yiddish version.

From You and Within You
Translation of Der Yid Article

As it has already been said, the entire scandal originated through someone, [Failed Messiah] who at one time belonged within the Chassidish circles and later separated from his belief, together with help from an unknown source, who sent him the picture.  Thereafter we saw the sharpest condemnation from Jewish activists including those who supposedly present themselves as news sources for the Charedi Community.

The Jewish Week had an electronic article by a rabbi who worried that deleting portions of a picture is geneyvas daas.  The modern Washington rabbi, Shmuel Hertzfeld, found a list of “serious aveiros” starting with baal toisef, midvar sheker tirchak, geneyvas daas, dina d’malchusa dina, hakoras hatov

“From the other side, it must be mentioned” says Reb Avraham [Editor of Der Tzitung], “those who came to the Charedi Community’s defense, even one who is very far from the Heimishe Community, such as Rabbi Joseph Potasnik, Executive Vice President of the New York Board of Rabbis.
 
Unlike the original broadcaster [Failed Messiah] - who does not hide his goal and is an open enemy – certain Charedi internet sites must be publicized, for their attempts to stab knives in the back of the core Charedi values.
 
One such blog – [Yeshiva World News] which was from the first to reprint the news before it was so strongly publicized, and assisted in making it possible to spread, printed Di Tzeitung’s apology.  However, it reacted to the portion of the statement that we pray for the government’s welfare.

In bold print it wrote, “Inquiring minds would like to know if any of the Shuls in the communities that this newspaper caters to, has ever said the appropriate prayer that they claim they have. Do any of their Sidurim have the Tefila printed in them?”

It is unbelievable that a well known Charedi forum [Yeshiva World News] should spread such a question enabling further instigation and igniting the fire of hatred among Jews - Sinas Yisroel.  Does he think that the non-Jew who reads these articles can distinguish between a kneitsch-hit [a hat with a bent down brim, a fedora] and a geshtufina-hit [a hat like Satmar wears with an upturned brim]?

He knows good and well that news from his blog gets caught in the general media, which he is proud of. However, this does not restrain him from posting questions against the Charedi Community.

This illustrates the difference between respectful community activists from all groups, who have united, and understood, that we must defend Jewish values from those who attack them, as well as the irresponsible internet writer [Failed Messiah] whose pens are arrows aimed at the Charedi Community.

Comments

[Baal Habos]

oooh. I love a good cat-fight.

[seymour]

if one reads the yid did not answer the question.

To the YID answer the question. Does your whole community exist on lies

[charedi]

i love the fact that der yid is forced to react to a blog, in the good old days these publication would just ignore a blog as if, it does not exist. these days they have no choice. the blogs are to strong to ignore. slowly but surely we see cracks in the taliban control!!! lets get ready for the big explosion in the near future. it happened in the middle east, it can happen here.

[Critical minyan]

Der yid' is a chicken shit. He knows I am the unknown source, and he also knows who and were I am. Why don't u say the truth?

[ah-pee-chorus]

a publication interested in truth would have no problem responding to the question. this propoganda rag, OTOH uses the tried and true haredi method of dealing with lies, crime and hypocrisy in their midst. attack the messenger!!!
in their eyes the bigger problem is NOT that they may have lied in implying that they pray for the govt., it is that another jew dares to call them out on it. its quite like the haredi outlook on child sex-abuse. while they know it is wrong , they consider it to be a greater crime to let someone from outside the shtetl know about it, even if thats the only way to protect their children.
sorry fellas, we're not going to stop exposing your lies and immorality.

[R Schachter]

Prayers for a Goyishe King?

We even exclude sick goyishe children from our Tefillohs for the sick.

We only pray for "Lchoileh Amecha" or "Acheinu Bnai Yisroel".

[Deremes]

"Because Satmar synagogues (and Chabad synagogues and any other hasidic synagogues I've been in) do not usually say the prayer for the government mentioned in the apology. It may be said for show or in a time of extreme need like a war on home soil. But it is not said on any regular basis and it is not said as it was meant to be said by the rabbis who composed it long ago.

That means that Di Tzitung lied to the State Department and the Secretary of State, Hillary Clinton. And it also lied to the Amerian people"

You full of it and nitpicking is an underestimate.

Di Tzitung,carefully wrote the following:

"We respect all government officials. We even have special prayers for the welfare of our Government and the government leaders, and there is no mention of gender in such prayers."

No where does it say that" We say the prayer".
Their point was that jews have respect for he government and there is even a special prayer for it. You know what they meant.

Now about the big lie:
You really live in the blog-sphere and not in reality.
Not the state department or Hillary Clinton and the American people care about this. It was a good laugh to the world for a bit how frum newspapers altered a picture because of women.

[bob]

Id be happy to answer the question. It said we pray for the Govt it didnt say every week. On Rosh hashana during Mussaf we all pray for the govt, I forgot the lashon but it is there i assure you. thus the editor didnt lie, at WORST he mislead. The truth is it can be hardly called misleading, as the the one to who it is addressed obviously didnt assume he meant the specific "tefila baad shalom hamedina" that many recite every week, as persumably she doesnt even know of its existance. All it said was "We even have special prayers for the welfare of our Government and the government leaders, and there is no mention of gender in such prayers." This is 100% factually accurate. And those tefialhs are recited, though not every week.

[seymour]

No where does it say that" We say the prayer".
Their point was that jews have respect for he government and there is even a special prayer for it. You know what they meant.

Now about the big lie:
You really live in the blog-sphere and not in reality.
Not the state department or Hillary Clinton and the American people care about this. It was a good laugh to the world for a bit how frum newspapers altered a picture because of women.

Posted by: Deremes | May 16, 2011 at 01:00 PM

please

if they had any respect we would not see them in the newspapers every week about another scam another yeshiva not complying with government regulations in there yeshiva and summer camps.

Please you are nitpicking any person reading that thing that they says a prayer and they do not.

He should not have said it since nay reporter could have gone in the community and asked the people what is the prayer for the government and they would have looked at them with bewilderment.

They can fool the uneducated who assume they are religiosity and would not lie.

but we know better. when I was and many others yeshiva boys where taught to lie to inspectors so the yeshiva gets lunch money for lunch that did not exist and for programs that did not exist.

we know their game

[Deremes]

Seymour,

What have to Jewish people done to you that you hate them so much?

[seymour]

Seymour,

What have to Jewish people done to you that you hate them so much?

Posted by: Deremes | May 16, 2011 at 01:35 PM

sorry charliue

what I said is a fact should I name the rosh yeshivas that where jailed because of the lunch program

I understand truth and the herdie commnuty is at conflict and when someone reports the truth that but the herdiem in a bad light all they can say is you hate frum instead of answering the question or saying maybe we should change

[Deremes]

Let me try another way,seymour,
I understand that you are an honest person and law abiding citizen. Also,truth is the number one thing by you and you cant take it when anyone lies.

But please share with me why is it that you hate the Jewish religion and the Jews who follow it?

[seymour]

I understand that truth and the herdie community is at conflict.

When someone reports the truth that puts the herdiem in a bad light all they can say is you hate frum instead of answering the question or saying maybe we should change.

their action are always godly. even when caught stealing they claim he only did it to support torah

[Deremes]

Ok, i guess you wont answer.

Then maybe you can answer this:

Not that Jews needs your support we doing great with Apikorsim like you.
But was there anytime that you took a stand on a positive light for jews?

[seymour]

Ok, i guess you wont answer.

Then maybe you can answer this:

Not that Jews needs your support we doing great with Apikorsim like you.
But was there anytime that you took a stand on a positive light for jews?

Posted by: Deremes | May 16, 2011 at 01:56 PM

I am when I point out that the frum do not represent real Judaism and are a cult.

Once people realize that the herdiem are not Jewss that alone will put Jews in a much better light.

You are dragging Jews and Jewish ethics and how people look at Jews into the sewer.

But Know people will realize not to link a cult to Judaism

[seymour]

Ok, i guess you wont answer.

Then maybe you can answer this:

Not that Jews needs your support we doing great with Apikorsim like you.
But was there anytime that you took a stand on a positive light for jews?

Posted by: Deremes | May 16, 2011 at 01:56 PM

I am when I point out that the Herideim do not represent real Judaism and are a cult.

Once people realize that the herdiem are not Jews that alone will put Jews in a much better light.

You are dragging Jews and Jewish ethics and how people look at Jews into the sewer.

But now people will realize not to link a cult to Judaism

Posted by: seymour | May 16, 2011 at 02:16 PM

[Deremes]

So tell us what is real Judaism.

[seymour]

go to

a reform conservative or mo organization and they can explain it better than me

[Deremes]

Aha,so you really don't know what real Judaism is.
All you know is that praying is foolish.
Not eating traif is foolish.
Observing shabbos is foolish
Putting on tefilinn is foolish.
A Jew marries a shiksa is ok.
Gay sex is ok

[seymour]

Deremes

stupid me of course the cultist think that they alone know the truth

[ah-pee-chorus]

Deremes -
i'm not weighing in on what 'real judaism' is but....

" praying is foolish"- correct. it can and has been studied and shown to have no affect on anything.

"Not eating traif is foolish"- correct. at the time man wrote the torah it might have been a reasonable precaution to avoid animals that showed signs of disease or were not freshly killed. but in modern times, to abide by the silly rules and gedarim is foolish.

"Observing shabbos is foolish"- choosing a day to avoid actual work may not be a bad idea, but to avoid things you find pleasurable is foolish.

"Putting on tefilinn is foolish"- unless youre auditioning for a part in a movie which calls for it.

"A Jew marries a shiksa is ok."- correct. unless you have strong tribal feelings and wish to carry on the tribe, or believe you'll be more comfortable with someone who shares your upbringing.

"Gay sex is ok"- correct. as long as youre gay or bi.

[Deremes]

Atleast your honest about your non-beliefs.

Vda Ma shetoshiv leapikoires
To debate you ill leave it for another apikoras
I can debate Orthodox judaisim

[jancsipista]

deremes- why cant you understand that when someone acts in a manner that disrespects others or in a manner that belittles others and also proclaims that they have the truth and others are fakes then its receipy for hate, the hassidishe world brings contempt on itself by the very nature of their behaviour its that simple.

[ah-pee-chorus]

Deremes - you are supposed to be able to answer apikorsut. is your belief system based on such shaky ground that you fear the result such a discussion? and how could you say, "To debate you ill leave it for another apikoras" ? why would two apikorsim debate one another on this?
or are you interpreting "da ma she'tashiv" as meaning that you should know NOT to respond to them?

[seymour]

Deremes

reb meir would debate and learn with an apikoras

[Deremes]

ah-pee-choru,
You are very clever and a good apikoras.
Besides your apikorsas which you think makes you smart,in daily life i bet i beat your smartness.

My belief system is not on shaky ground. Its built on Al Titosh,which you will call stupidity and i have no problem with it.

[ah-pee-chorus]

You are very clever and a good apikoras

thanks and im yirzeh hashem by you!!

,in daily life i bet i beat your smartness.

thats amusing. may i ask what evidence you compiled before making that assertion?
in any case, if there were a way to make such a bet in which i could be assured of your payment when you lose, i would gladly take you up on the offer.

critical thinkers know to beware of anything which demands your adherence and allegiance. logical, reasonable, fair and moral actions and thoughts do not require such preconditions. the truth can stand on its own. the fact that the torah has to command you to believe in it is strong evidence of its fear of the truth. such tactics seem to work quite well on people like you. you are instructed to keep your head in the sand, prohibited from engaging in true discourse on issues of faith and the authorship of the torah, and convinced that doing so is a virtue. welcome to orwells 1984.

[seymour]

Deremes

your beliefs system is not on shaky ground because your belief system tell you that.

That is what people call a circular argument

[jancsipista]

deremes- when you make a statement like ,in daily life i bet you i beat youre smartness, that statement tells it all that you have no idea how dummn you are only an idiot makes a statement like that.

[Deremes]

"in any case, if there were a way to make such a bet in which i could be assured of your payment when you lose, i would gladly take you up on the offer.'

There is no way you can be assured anything by a frum person. Remember,i am frum therefore i lie and cheat. So the bet is out.

[What kind of goyishe name is Harold z"l?]

I think we are getting off topic here with these comments. Do you see what hatred does? Wasn't the point of this to publicize the fact that everyone at Yeshiva World is going to hell just like the rest of us?

[talkaboutfools]

ah-pee-chorus
" praying is foolish"- correct. it can and has been studied and shown to have no affect on anything.

Really!!!!!
How can you have a conclusive study done for something which is so completely unscientific none of these study's have been "proven" bec they are impossible to prove. but as it happens of these "study's" done they have gone both ways

As for your other comments they basically follow the same thread of logic. - Things you do not understand are foolish.-
You are entitled to believe what you wish but realize that the epitomy of being conceited is when one believes that something can not be just because he can not understand it.

[Barry]

Deremes, don't belittle Epicurus (Apikorus).

The contribution to philosophical thought by ancient Greeks (who preceded the tannaim) such as Epicurus, Democritus, Epictetus, Plato, Aristotle, Cicero, Lucretius, Protagoras, and Socrates was remarkable and much more advanced then Jewish thought until the times of Mendlesohn.

It is rather tragic that today throughout the Torah world, no Kollel has reached the level of thought achieved by Epicurus in his garden school in 250 BCE without the benefit of Pell Grants.

[Yossi]

Here in England, we also have a prayer for the country we live in. Only difference is our sovereign is female. So we mention Hamalka; some radical shuls are even lenient enough to mention Hamalka Elizabeth. Even requires expertise in grammar, e.g. "her advisors" is said as Yo’azeho, etc.

[ah-pee-chorus]

Remember,i am frum therefore i lie and cheat. So the bet is out.

Posted by: Deremes

dont play the martyr. i never said nor do i believe that all haredim lie or cheat. my point was that as anonymous posters theres no way to conduct such a test, and even if there were, theres no way i could guarantee being paid off.

[ah-pee-chorus]

talkaboutfools (congrats on well chosen ID)-
you contradict yourself in just a few sentences. you say there is no way to test it and then claim test results have gone both ways.
prayer can absolutely be tested just as medicines, temperature, positive thinking etc. can all be scientifically tested. as it happens there has never been a single double blind test of prayer that has passed peer review which has shown any impact on anything. there was a study done through columbia which seemed to show a positive result, but which was later discredited in which "The lead author took his name off the paper and resigned as chair of gynaecology, and on 22nd November 2004, study co-author Daniel Wirth was sentenced to five years in prison followed by three years of supervised release (parole) after pleading guilty to conspiracy to commit mail and bank fraud."

in the largest such study paid for by the templeton group , a religious foundation set up to further belief, the results showed no benefit whatsoever.

Things you do not understand are foolish.-

that just wont do. i understand them all too well. and if you think you have some higher understanding then by all means please share. but you wont since all you have as a defense is to try to dismiss any and all criticism.

the epitomy of being conceited is when one believes that something can not be just because he can not understand it.

the epitome of arrogance is to be sure youre right when there is zero evidence to support your position. that honor goes to religious fundamentalists of all types, like yourself.
the real problem is that youve never been exposed to the realities of modern science coupled with open debate where you have to defend your position based on reality and logic as opposed to "its in my book and that book says i have to believe it..or else...".

[Yoel Mechanic]

Demers; I'm not sure what you're looking for, but if you are looking to attempt to structure a conversation get to ideas that might lead to some reform realize there *are* moderate voices within the chareidi world. perhaps you will find more interest on torahmusings.com However be wary of harsh voices in the chareidi and the ex-chareidi world who wish to suppress the voices of moderation and reason.

[Yoel Mechanic]

>The contribution to philosophical thought by ancient Greeks (who preceded the tannaim) such as Epicurus, Democritus, Epictetus, Plato, Aristotle, Cicero, Lucretius, Protagoras, and Socrates was remarkable and much more advanced then Jewish thought until the times of Mendlesohn.

In philosophy one will like or dislike Greek thought according to taste. It was only in math and astronomy that the excellence of their achievements are indisputable. Therefore of this rather diverse list mentioned, Democritus (also Pythagorus & Euclid) stand in far greater esteem than the others. Also Aristarchus is an unsung hero, who had he had more influence the advance of astronomy would have been spared centuries of deep trouble (so deep that even Rambam alluded to it)

[Yoel Mechanic]

Also, to include Lucretius and Cicero (who are Roman) in a list of "Ancient Greeks" perhaps indicates a lack of interest in this subject anyway. But for anyone who actually is interested in this, the list is a very mixed bag.

[Loshon Hora]

What a joke the White House airbrushed the photo to start with.

[Yoel Mechanic]

>until the times of Mendlesohn.

You must REALLY like Mendelsohn.

[talkaboutfools]

ah-pee-chorus
to begin with I did not contradict myself what is said and meant was that

a. Since the supposed benefits of Prayer, if you believe in it or not, are "supernatural" it is not something that can be proven in lab anymore then the existance of a g-d is
b. Even though it is inherently unprovable the foolish who have tried to prove or disprove it have come out both ways.

"I understand them all too well. and if you think you have some higher understanding then by all means please share. but you wont since all you have as a defense is to try to dismiss any and all criticism."

I am willing to admit there are things I do not understand and are not necessarily meant to understand. For example I dont "really" understand how Nuclear energy works and you could try to explain it to me 100 times I still would not understand it.

"the epitome of arrogance is to be sure youre right when there is zero evidence to support your position. that honor goes to religious fundamentalists of all types, like yourself."

I never said I was sure I am right.

Never the less I am entitled to "believe" that I am right, which in fact is all religion is - a belief or faith - not a certainty. and I can choose to follow what makes sense to me regardless of your incapacity to "understand"

"the real problem is that youve never been exposed to the realities of modern science coupled with open debate where you have to defend your position based on reality and logic as opposed to "its in my book and that book says i have to believe it..or else..."."

You make a lot of assumptions in this paragraph when you know absolutely nothing about me, my education, and theological upbringing. Furthermore, I am more then willing to argue based on logic and reality and not based on what it says "in my book" on those subjects which fit such a discussion but when it comes to things that are beyond the scope of human logic and understanding I am humble enough to know when to wave the white flag and surrender my logic to that of a greater being.

Of course if you do not believe in anything, there is nothing for you to surrender to, and therefore when faced with something that is beyond you capabilities to fathom you must instead ridicule.

[ergo proxy]

seymore got served

[Loshon Hora]

Deremes

reb meir would debate and learn with an apikoras

Posted by: seymour | May 16, 2011 at 03:37 PM

Acheir was not an apikoires.

[WoolSilkCotton]

The shameless lying, backpedaling, doublespeak, disingenuousness, and assorted other frumma shticklech we've observed in the aftermath of the Photoshop incident reminds me of this same type of reaction that we saw a few months ago when that frumma couple went on the TV program Peoples' Court, and they tried to BS the judge about a damaged wig that they claimed was worth a lot more than it really was.

After the frumma were caught in their tangled web of lies and shticklech, every excuse was sought, additional lies on top of lies, finger pointing, threats to sue, blah blah blah.

With the frumma, the filthy techniques are all so predictable.

[talkaboutfools]

ah-pee-chorus
"... the fact that the torah has to command you to believe in it is strong evidence of its fear of the truth. such tactics seem to work quite well on people like you. you are instructed to keep your head in the sand, prohibited from engaging in true discourse on issues of faith and the authorship of the torah, and convinced that doing so is a virtue. welcome to orwells 1984."

To begin with there is the the concept of da mashtoshiv lapikoras which the Mabit(a rishon whose discourses you would probably like) defines as "knowing how to answer the apikoras within you. As he puts it each person has a little apikoras within him that asks questions makes arguments against the commandments and you need to know how to answer yourself in a logical and reasoned way rather then just suppressing the questions which will continue to eat away at you.
In fact the Torah does not fear truth but rather supplies 'true truth', so that 'certain people' who would otherwise be so impressed by their own mental capacities should know what the test of truth is rather then relying on their own supposed Logical capacities.

to be quite honest I am not sure why I am bothering to argue with you because obviously you are at a point where you are so certain of you correctness that you will bat away any argument without regard for its merits for fear that it might make you rethink your positions and your belief in human superiority being unchallenged by anything beyond your understanding

[ah-pee-chorus]

talkaboutfools -
Since the supposed benefits of Prayer, if you believe in it or not, are "supernatural" it is not something that can be proven in lab anymore then the existance of a g-d is

youre quite confused. the supposed benefits of almost all prayers are not "supernatural", and the results of these prayers can be seen and studied right here on earth. the mechanism by which it would work , if prayers did work, would be supernatural. when people pray for someone who is ill, it can definitely be measured, given a reasonable sample size, whether those people that are prayed for recover at a higher rate or suffer fewer fatalities. the same type of study could be done for almost all types of prayer with the exclusion of prayers for the neshama of a dead person, for example, which could not be measured. so your first attempt at an excuse for why prayer doesnt work is based on ignorance.

Even though it is inherently unprovable the foolish who have tried to prove or disprove it have come out both ways
if you had read my earlier post you would have seen that this statement is just not true.

I am willing to admit there are things I do not understand and are not necessarily meant to understand.

so you dont understand the torah enough to defend it and cant explain why it should be believed to have had a non-human author and yet you live your entire life based on its teachings. that seems irrational.

and I can choose to follow what makes sense to me regardless of your incapacity to "understand"

you can believe in the tooth fairy too. and the incapacity lies not with my ability to understand, but with your ability to explain and justify those beliefs so that they have more validity than my beliefs that the creator was the flying spaghetti monster. or maybe you cant accept the FSM because you arent able to understand him and his noodly appendages.

You make a lot of assumptions in this paragraph when you know absolutely nothing about me, my education, and theological upbringing.

i know that youve been preconditioned to avoid defending your position and to claim that the reason others dont agree is because they lack the capacity to "understand". that you accept this type of illogic tells me much about your education and theological upbringing.
what you say afterwards can be summed up as follows:

"i cant explain why i believe, and i cant provide any evidence for gods existence...but i dont have to because i have accepted that he exists and doesnt want me to be able to understand..so i surrender my lack of logic to that greater being which i cant explain.."

isnt circular reasoning great?

[WoolSilkCotton]

Yes indeed, never rely on your own logical capacities. Just leave it to the rabbis, who are so much smarter than you, who will tell you what the Torah commands you to believe.

The 'true truth' mentioned by our friend at 7:55 is also known as truthiness.

Torah truth, or true truth, is indeed truthiness, as expounded upon by the Gadol Hador, HaRav Stephen Colbert:

http://www.colbertnation.com/the-colbert-report-videos/24039/october-17-2005/the-word---truthiness

[ah-pee-chorus]

talkaboutfools -
i cant tell you how many times i have discussed these issues with frum jews who started out by insisting they could make rational intellectual arguments for the torah. when they see that they cant, they have then directed me to their rebbeim. and when these supposed experts in these areas are stymied they invariably invoke some halachic reason why they cant continue the discussion, no matter how much they really really want to. many have used variations of the 'da ma shetoshiv' excuse to back out. they say it applies only to onesself, as you have done, or that it applies only to goyim. they can never admit that they are being made to look silly, especially in front of their talmidim so they wimp out.
so dont worry, you are just following in the footsteps of some of the top kiruv guys out there. they have no answers, and neither do you.

[ah-pee-chorus]

you will bat away any argument without regard for its merits for fear that it might make you rethink your positions

youre confusing ME with YOURSELF. i base my positions on truth and i'm always open to changing those positions should the evidence exist for a change. there is nothing preventing me from accepting evidence no matter what it shows and where it leads. YOU , on the other hand are prohibited from questioning god or the torah so you are obligated to never accept any arguments which question their validity and truth. that is a clever tool found in most every religion. it successfully keeps the flock ignorant and shackled.

[WoolSilkCotton]

Are the frumma allowed to look through a copy of People magazine? Of course not. An ordinary periodical of pop culture and celebrity gossip could cause a mass outbreak of defections from the frumma velt, men getting woodies, women becoming prostitutes, and children going off the proverbial derech.

Imagine what a religion uber-orthodoxy is, that a copy of People magazine can bring it all tumbling down. It is a religion built like a house of cards.

[jancsipista]

wsc- i can tell you this much theese frummies are one of the biggest hypocrites on this planet i worked on 47st the diamond district not far from times square i saw them i cant even count it going into porno movies and coming out, this is what happenes if you are starves of seeing the female body or having normal sex , and here we have theese moronic rabbic taking out jillaries picture what a joke they are.

[ah-pee-chorus]

WSC-

.....and fear and ignorance hold it all in place.

[WoolSilkCotton]

Jancsipista, there are two porno stores on the highway just outside of Lakewood. The frumma are the best customers. It is well known to every nonJew and nonorthodox Jew in the area.

The frumma are a complete joke with their sexual perversion disguised as tznius.

[who knows]

talkaboutfools, you write
"the epitomy of being conceited is when one believes that something can not be just because he can not understand it"

Don't you think you include yourself in the statement? Don't you think that ah-pee-chorus's statements can not be true, "just because you don't understand them"?

[WoolSilkCotton]

I am still laughing at this statement from 7:55:

"...the Torah does not fear truth but rather supplies 'true truth'..."

This is the true meaning of Truthiness.

[ah-pee-chorus]

"...the Torah does not fear truth but rather supplies 'true truth'..."

This is the true meaning of Truthiness

yeah but truthiness isnt based on the true truth . too funny.

[OMG]

Posted by: Deremes | May 16, 2011 at 01:00 PM

There is an old saying, give someone enough rope and he will hang himself. Meaning, if you give someone that you suspect of bad behavior the freedom to behave badly, eventually he or she will be caught and punished. We the readers of this blog always knew that you personally do not care if your kind did wrong, without any hesitation, you will leap to defend your community. So here, we have you making pronouncements that we are nitpicking, because the Di Tzitung never actually claimed that they actually say the prayer, but in your view it is ok to make it sound that they acutely say the prayers. This reminded me from the famous Clinton excuses “it depends what is, is. Even defenders of Clinton like me knew that according to proper English, he had a point, but it was not acceptable to parse the word when we understood that he is misleading the questioner in a legal proceeding. The same could be said with this episode, they know exactly what they did, making the argument that they have prayer for the government, thereby, giving the impression that the Chasidim actually say the prayers. You name me one religion which has a general prayer but never actually used, in eighteen years, that I have participated in prayers in Satmar, not even once even during President Kennedy assassination nor during the attempt assassination of President Ronald Reagan, did we in Satmar said any prayers for the government.

Deceiving unsuspecting people is a lie within the same magnitude as a direct lie. Finally, that is morals, which does not emanate from Torah, it originates from your upbringing, and each person eventually will choose how he is willing to live his life.

[talkaboutfools]

ah-pee-chorus
I could very well explain why i believe what i believe and 'prove' g-d's existence but it would be futile because no matter what arguments I made or what proofs I would show you (even if g-d himself where to make his presence known to you) you wouldn't be convinced.
And the explanation of 'da ma shetoshiv' that I wrote before was not to intimate that one need answer only oneself or a goy i believe that i need to answer anyone who is willing to have an honest and reasonable discussion, (which is why i tried here to begin with)
But you ah-pee-chorus, as the Rabbis you have come across (assuming you talked to respectable ones who knew what they were talking about) have found out, are not interested in explanations or proofs, all you are looking for is an argument, which is fine, you can get your kicks however you like. But I dear sir, probably much as many of the Rabbis whom you have 'defeated' with your arguments, have no interest in going through circular arguments with someone who is unwilling to question his own beliefs only those of others.
The only way to have a fair and honest discussion is if both parties are willing to question and suspend what they believe and 'know'. which you obviously are unwilling to do.

I understand completely your 'Logic' and why you believe what you do, but I am convinced of what i believe.

I am willing to question what I believe and do so every day in my professional capacity as well as in my dealings with others, both jews and non-jews.
Organized religion is far from perfect and I do not always follow the rulings of today's rabbis when i believe them to be unsubstantiated and ridiculous. At the same time I do not question why some would be disenchanted by what is purported by many to be Judiasim. But how dare you decide that you have the right to question others beliefs without the benefit of A doubt, whereas you would like them to suspend all their beliefs and conclusions and understandings to reach your conclusions and beliefs.

[Loshon Hora]

Who needs Goyim to hate us with all these self-hating Jews?
The hate for G-d The Hate for His Torah , and the hate for his nation expressed above.
If you you think about the Jews as avnation scattered over the earth. Didn't all nations have laws against treason, if you liked the king or hated him, you kept the laws, and were patriotic. If you were a trator your head was axed.
Weather you have valid points or not to vile your fellow Jews G-d & his Torah over the net trying to embarrass them in front of all the nations of the earth that they are sacttered between in exile,is an act of treason, punishable by divine law.
Now here is some bait for you apikorsim, reshaim.
If you want to join the party of redemption when moshiach comes, you better be part of the nation, otherwise you stay behind.

[OMG]

APC, Seymour, good work. Talking about prayers, my nephew always challenges any belier in prayers; to show him in history of humankind even one amputee who prayed and his limb grew back, why God could not regenerate a limb. We all know the answer.

[ah-pee-chorus]

OMG- thanks.
have you seen the site? good stuff

http://whywontgodhealamputees.com/

[ah-pee-chorus]

talkaboutfools -

i believe that i need to answer anyone who is willing to have an honest and reasonable discussion, (which is why i tried here to begin with)
But you ah-pee-chorus, as the Rabbis you have come across (assuming you talked to respectable ones who knew what they were talking about) have found out, are not interested in explanations or proofs,

thats funny. your opening comment to me was,

"As for your other comments they basically follow the same thread of logic. - Things you do not understand are foolish.- "

sounds like youre the one who decided right away that its impossible for me to have reached the logical conclusion that the torah is man made, and that the only possibility is that i must not understand.
so dont feed me the BS that you were looking for an honest and reasonable discussion. you had stated your conclusion before we began.
of the two of us i began under the same belief structure as you and decided at some pont to challende my assumptions and think critically. the evidence led me to non-belief. so my position was arrived at based on logic and reason. you, OTOH believe NOT because you analyzed all the options and found the torah to be supported by the evidence, but rather because it is what you were taught from birth, and part of what you learned was that "having emunah", believing despite the lack of evidence, is a great thing and an ikkar in yahadut.
that said, youd be better off being honest and admitting the real reason you wont provide evidence for the torah is that you are ill-eqipped to do so and are afraid youll make your position look bad.

my beliefs have nothing to do with the actions or rulings of any rav or jew.

. But how dare you decide that you have the right to question others beliefs without the benefit of A doubt, whereas you would like them to suspend all their beliefs and conclusions and understandings to reach your conclusions and beliefs.

how dare you suggest that i DONT have the right to question others beliefs. this is a free country, right?
and yes i would LIKE for the rest of the world to recognize religion for what it is, but i dont expect most to come to the same conclusion as i have. and thats mostly because believers are afraid of the conversation. many if not most intellectually honest people who do take the time to look at the evidence without prejudice arrive at the same conclusion as i have.

[who knows]

talkaboutfools: "But I dear sir, probably much as many of the Rabbis whom you have 'defeated' with your arguments, have no interest in going through circular arguments with someone who is unwilling to question his own beliefs only those of others."

Thank you for describing haredim so well. They are indeed "unwilling to question their own beliefs (since they are devine),but only engaging in questioning beliefs of all the others.

[ah-pee-chorus]

Loshon Hora -

Who needs Goyim to hate us with all these self-hating Jews?
The hate for G-d The Hate for His Torah , and the hate for his nation expressed above.

you post the same stupidity over and over. someone who doesnt believe in god is not a self-hating jew. i love myself, though i'm not too thrilled with you.
i cant hate god since he is a figment of your imagination. do you hate the easter bunny? i have great affection for my fellow jews as a whole. that doesnt mean i love everything they believe in.and the torah is an interesting part of our worlds history. it has had the greatest impact on the world of any book ever written. but god didnt write it, man did.
is it too hard for you to grasp that what i just wrote does not equate to "I HATE THE TORAH" ? if so, have someone explain it to you and try to refrain from reading and posting on blogs until your comprehension reaches that of a sixth grader.
and stop the veiled threats of violence and retribution. they make you look foolish, like a child saying you better believe me or i'll tell my dad.
sorry, but moshiach friend was another tool to give people something to look forward to and nobody in the mesorah had any clue what it meant or when he'd come. hillel said he already came as yechezkel, so dont invest too much into that myth.

[OMG]

APC, thank you for the link, the site is splendid I knew this logical question must have been posted prior to my nephews’ comment.

WSC, sorry I didn’t mention you, but, we all know that you are superb in your comments.

[Abracadabra]

APC, WSC and Seymour - great thread!

APC - If the formerly-frum had a "kiruv" organization for helping those who grew up brainwashed learn how to think then you would be a great resource and could have a full time job doing this. Your arguments are clear, concise, and to the point. It's a pleasure to read. And you poke holes in the illogical statements with what seems to be a straightforward ease. I always enjoy reading your arguments.

What I also find humorous is that those you argue with never have anything rational to say in the end. They start out thinking they will out-argue you and then wind up running for cover or just repeating their same illogical arguments, but screaming louder or attacking the messenger. They never say it like it is. Their folly is in not admitting to themeselves and others that there is no logic to it.

Then again, there is a huge psychological pull of cognitive dissonance which prevents them from admitting any of the truths to themselves or anyone else. I feel bad for them, as I was there.

Waking up one day as an adult with a whole life, family and community and realizing that it is built upon a house of cards and illusions is overwhelmingly painful. And it is life-changing in extremely painful ways that make one want to go back to the good ol' days of ignorance. It makes sense that people are psychologically guarded against it. The upheaval is often too much for people to bear - emotionally, psychologically and even logistically.

What do you suggest to help adults who are going through those kind of scenarios? These are people with families, children, and jobs who are knee-deep (or rather up to their noses) in a community and they wake up one day and realize it's all built on fabrication? They love their familiy and friends but they see everything so differently now. They want to be true to themselves and not live a lie, but they also don't want to hurt those they love.

APC, WSC, Seymour, and anyone else - I would very much appreciate your imput on this. Thanks.

[Jeff]

But I dear sir, probably much as many of the Rabbis whom you have 'defeated' with your arguments, have no interest in going through circular arguments with someone who is unwilling to question his own beliefs only those of others.
The only way to have a fair and honest discussion is if both parties are willing to question and suspend what they believe and 'know'. which you obviously are unwilling to do.

Go look up the meaning of "projection".

Now here is some bait for you apikorsim, reshaim.
If you want to join the party of redemption when moshiach comes, you better be part of the nation, otherwise you stay behind.

Yes, well - at least we can spell.

It always comes down to threats with you people. It's inevitable; they're all you have.
It's the same with evangelicals. Fundamentalists are all drearily alike.

[OMG]

Posted by: Abracadabra | May 17, 2011 at 03:51 AM

You yourself are as good as it comes. Let me take a stab at your request and put in my two cents for all to see. Myself, when I was in the yeshiva I had a group of friends, approximately five, and we would openly discuss God and religion, none of my friends had any faith in God, and we used to chat about how we would run away and start a new life in a faraway place like Vancouver Canada. Here is my point, it is not that they do not know the fallacies of their arguments they do, but without having the wherewithal, financial support, they tend to live out their lives without any challenges to their self-imposed system. Success comes only when you challenge yourself every day, without facing up to the facts, you are inclined to sit back and let your life pass, right in from of your eyes, without accomplishing even one thing you dream. It takes a special breed to upend their lifestyle and leave the community, only a very small segment of the population has what it takes.

[Deremes]

OMG,you say:
"in eighteen years, that I have participated in prayers in Satmar, not even once even during President Kennedy assassination nor during the attempt assassination of President Ronald Reagan, did we in Satmar said any prayers for the government.

Deceiving unsuspecting people is a lie within the same magnitude as a direct lie. Finally, that is morals, which does not emanate from Torah, it originates from your upbringing, and each person eventually will choose how he is willing to live his life"

Lets see,i figure your age is anywhere from 58 to 62 the most.

President Kennedy was assassinated in 1963 you were 14. I doubt you would remember if they did or didn't say the prayer which is a tiny detail in life to recall.
President Regan assassination attempt i think was about 1981-82 and at that time you have long left the community.

Hu?

[ah-pee-chorus]

Abracadabra -

thanks for all that. if there were funding for a 'richuk' or anti-kiruv organization, i would gladly be a part of it. but as is always the case, those wishing to extend this lifestyle are far more organized and committed than those of us that see it as a negative.
your point about them being stuck is well taken. there is no simple solution. i would think that at the very least, if someone came to the realization that its all based on lies, they would encourage their children to question, think critically, and research the issues for themselves. and if someone were brave enough, he could leave in spirit if not in body, and deal with the consequences.
i faced a similar decision and while i still have ties to my community, my kfira and apikorsut is fairly well known. i have plenty of material for a book but wont pursue it until my kids are slightly older.
i think blogs like this which permit discussions of faith-even when they are way off topic- for which i plead guilty, serve as a an important psychological outlet and a form of support system for those that are going through crises of faith as something new to them.

[ah-pee-chorus]

: OMG -

your story is fascinating. what happened to the rest of the group? did you stay in touch? i never encountered anyone who truly questioned while in yeshiva but that doesnt mean they werent there. there was a LOT that went on that i wasnt aware of.

[ah-pee-chorus]

Deremes -

instead of playing detective while implying that he couldnt possibly remember, why dont you tell us that hes wrong? tell us how every shabbos there is a tefilla said li'shlom hamedina. tell us about all the tefillos said for kennedy and reagan. they do say them afterall, right? you wouldnt be avoiding the issue of their having lied in their apology, right?

[Deremes]

No detective playing.This blog is about truth and facts,isn't it?

No need to tell you how every shabbos there is a tefilla said li'shlom hamedina.Because nobody claimed that its being said on every shabbos.

[What kind of goyishe name is Harold z"l?]

have you seen the site? good stuff
http://whywontgodhealamputees.com/
Posted by: ah-pee-chorus | May 16, 2011 at 10:04 PM

Very interesting and thank you. I printed out the entire site so I will have what to read on the long Shabbos afternoon before Mincha.

[ah-pee-chorus]

What kind of goyishe name is Harold -

youre welcome- enjoy.

[OMG]

Posted by: Deremes | May 17, 2011 at 11:46 AM

It is self-evident, that I was mistaken and you are right that I was long gone by the assassination attempt of President Ronald Reagan, but here is the dissimilarity between you and your kind, and regular people, when we recognize that we made an inaccurate statement, we admit to our inaccuracy and move on. Nevertheless, in your communities like with photoshoping episode, instead of admitting to their mistake they try to deceive others into believing that they say a special prayer for the government, when we all know that it was never done. The same is with every other issue, you yourself fail to reply to points of contentions, but you will howl like a wolf in the wild about insignificant issues, which has no bearing on the subject of discussion. Like the fact that even thought, I was gone at the time of the assassination attempt of President Ronald Reagan, but you cannot say that I was wrong that they did say the prayer at that point in time. In fact, I just called my nephew, and he said I am right and he added that he is 41 years old and he could easily attest that they never ever said any prayers for the US government in Satmar while he is praying in the same shul for thirty years.
Lastly, you never replied to my point of contentions, that misleading propaganda is still a lie, as you did not reply about the Rabbi Weissmandel arguments, Deremes, you speak with a forked tongue.

[OMG]

Posted by: ah-pee-chorus | May 17, 2011 at 01:38 PM

Well, I met my friends in Satmar Yeshiva, one was from Montreal another from Toronto, and two were from NY. All got married with a bunch of kids, (that is why we were talking about running to Vancouver) the one from Toronto is gay and on Shabbat he wears white socks. The one from NY is wealthy, and we met when I was sitting Shiva for my Mother at my father house, he stayed after everybody left, and we discussed the religious aspect of his life. His view was that you do not need to leave the community to have a good and productive life, have sexual encounters (with call girls) or any other type of entertainment. My point was that it is not about sex, sports, or movies, it is more about your inner freedom and understanding of who you are, and only leaving would give you the understanding to value your freedom. The others never ever spoke to me or send any greetings. That said I have a friend who was not part of this group, and he stayed in touch with me even when I was in the military. Moreover, until today I value him about all other relationships, other them my wife and children.

[Abracadabra]

APC – I’m playing devil’s advocate here, because I really want to explore the issues here. Please indulge me, thanks.

i would think that at the very least, if someone came to the realization that its all based on lies, they would encourage their children to question, think critically, and research the issues for themselves.

And then what? “Totty, why the heck are we frum if this whole thing is a load of crap?”
“Well tatele, I didn’t have the courage to leave everything behind at the point at which I realized it was all a big bunch of lies, so, I don’t believe anything, and do it all for show. This way, I don’t have to leave the community and all the people who I love don’t reject me. I pretend to agree with all the lies, bow to a non-existent G-d in shul, put leather straps around my arm and head, pay too much for food, and pretend to care about superstitious, archaic, ancient laws, and in return I get to be part of the club. But I don’t believe anything. That’s why you caught me turning on the air conditioner one Shabbos when it was hot. I told you I forgot it was Shabbos, but really I forgot you were there watching.”
“Oh, okay Totty, now I understand.”
Even if there is no conversation about it – after you encourage the kids to question and research – what happens next? The kids rebel against everything they know? They drop out of school? They go to public school? Their friends reject them? They find the other rebels and go off the derech? (And then become outcasts in their own circles and you have boys with long hair and earings and girls with cleavage and mini skirts going to their kollel brother’s weddings and simchos and most people there shunning them and whispering too loudly behind their backs? Seriously – would you encourage your kids to go off the derech? Although you would still love and support them, you know the community wont. Would you ask your relatives to support them in their decision to leave the ways of the clan? Seriously – what would be the game plan?

and if someone were brave enough, he could leave in spirit if not in body, and deal with the consequences.

What do you mean by “leave in spirit” and what do you mean by “deal with the consequences”? Can you please give me examples? And if you mean not believing anymore and going through the motions just to stay in the club, I don’t know if you realize how difficult that is for people who are inherently honest, sincere and cannot tolerate what they feel is living a double life. They find living a deeply duplicitous life psychologically torturous.

i think blogs like this which permit discussions of faith… serve as a an important psychological outlet and a form of support system for those that are going through crises of faith as something new to them.

It may be an outlet of a sort, and it offers a bit of “virtual” support. But it is far from “enough” support for most people. Most people need a place where they belong – a real place with real people – and real people in their lives who they can relate to. It’s hard to find likeminded friends when you get verbally stoned by the clan if you say anything outside accepted beliefs (like that God is a human innovation run amok, halacha was made up, and the Torah is man-made).

[seymour]

Abracadabra,

I speak to many of my frum friend and I think they speak to me more openly since I am open about my belief or non belief.

They say they have question and maybe the whole thing is bull and maybe if their is a god he is allah and the muslin are right.

but this is how they where born they have a family and family members and will just play the game and they are comfortable with that.

I could not live a lie like that so I left

[ah-pee-chorus]

Abracadabra -
you certainly raise very valid and difficult questions. i couldnt live a lie so i never hid anything from my kids, who are enrolled in an MO yeshiva. over the years they have been present by choice at many discussions and debates i have had on theology and the torah. they have seen both sides presented and realize that the torah side just cant be defended rationally and on an intellectually honest basis. i have encouraged them to think critically and reach their own conclusions. and baruch hashem (just kidding of course) they have done just that and reject all dogma. but at the same time i told them that we are jews and have a common bond with other jews, and that we can appreciate our heritage without accepting an imaginary friend in heaven. so to that extent they are "off the derech". i also recently asked them if was a single day when they realized i didnt believe in god and they said no, they had just always known. we are still members of a shul yet most of my fellow congregants and all of my friends know what i think. i have 2 sets of dishes and have a kosher kitchen but will eat whatever i like outside the house and order in from wherever i like and eat with plastic, so that my family and friends who are kosher can eat here.
obviously in a fairly liberal MO environment i can do this whereas it most likely cant be done in harediland. so while i have created a situation that allows me to never have to hide or deceive, for others it wouldnt be possible to remain in their environs.
without being too simplistic or insensitive, i assume haredim could find a community similar to mine in which they could be more honest and open without being completely shunned and without completely breaking their parents hearts.
but ultimately a choice must be made as to what you value more, your desire to please others while living a lie, or a need for truth. i have met and read of former haredim who have picked up in the middle of the night and started a new life, so it can be done by the courageous.
while some may claim they cant do this to their familys reputation, by not doing it they are consigning their kids and grandkids to a life deprived of so much and based on a dishonest premise.
an unmarried adult can certainly transition with less difficulty than one married with kids. in some ways its like a gay person coming out of the closet. it isnt easy but its necessary to live an honest life.
i cant claim to have easy answers that fit all since none exist. there are probably thousands 'stuck' in their personal hell and afraid to leave the fold. i wish i could help.

[ah-pee-chorus]

OMG -
interesting. i agree that there is no freedom when you fear someone is watching and judging, be that your community or god.

[Abracadabra]

APC - Thank you for your honesty and for sharing your personal experience with these issues. I appreciate your approach to the situation. Your kids will certainly be better off for having been raised with honesty and maturity rather than lies, deception and double-messages. And your comparison to someone gay coming out of the closet is a good one. Many are in the closet in that they are terrified of expressing what they think or of being discovered to be an "apikores" or a complete "kofer b'ikkur" non-believer.

Of course Chareidim have a harder time of it, especially if they can't find a place within Modern Orthodoxy to feel comfortable. Moving as an adult from Chareidi life to Modern Orthodoxy is a HUGE change. And I'm not even sure it's dependent on someone being single as much as it is dependent on a person's strength and ability to deal with so much change in their lives.

Thank you again for sharing and for your honest, thoughtful and intelligent response.