Protect Children From Physical Danger Before "Moral Danger"

For the past few years, on a regular, horrific basis, hasidic children in Brooklyn, Kiryas Joel and surrounding areas have been tragic victims of motor vehicle accidents. And most of those accidents were preventable.

 

Protect Children From Physical Danger Before "Moral Danger"
By Critical Minyan • Special To FailedMessiah.com

For the past few years, on a regular, horrific basis, Chasidic children have been tragic victims of motor vehicle accidents.

I know of 14 incidents, and I'm sure there are more, that occurred over the past 3 years. Each statistic, each story, represents a young child, healthy and beautiful, with a wide open future, struck down before their life even began.If these were an anti-Semitic incidents, opportunistic politicians such as Dov HIlkind, would be throwing themselves in front of a camera, calling for additional police, additional funds, additional investigations.

Consider in contrast, the reaction, the furor, to the bike lanes that were put up in Williamsburg.  Many Chasidic politicians and spokespeople spoke out against the bike lanes, calling them a threat to safety, potentially damaging to pedestrians and to mothers pushing strollers. These efforts are severely, harmfully misdirected. Bicycles don't kill children, motor vehicles do. Focus on that and lives will be saved.

Everyone knows that the battle against bicycles is not really about safety, it's about protecting the community from outside public influences, from change, from modernization.  Most Chasidim would love to ride bicycles within their community but avoid it out of shame, or worse, out of extortion from the religious radicals that control the school system and the taxpayer funded disbursements from the Williamsburg Jewish councils.

In the past mayoral election, strong community lobbying was dedicated to removing the bike lane down Bedford Ave.  It is even alleged that Mayor Bloomberg removed this bike lane as a political favor to thank Chasidim for publicly supporting him. Shame on Mayor Bloomberg for catering to separatists who want to Balkanize NY.  Even greater shame should be heaped on inept, so-called,community leaders such as Moshe David Neiderman, Issac Abraham, Leo Moscowitz and others, who don't care about protecting their children, choosing instead to focus on women bicycling instead of reckless motor vehicle driving.

Rabbi [David] Neiderman [head of a powerful Williamsburg-based Satmar community organization], why were you fighting against a bike lane when you should have been fighting for safer streets? Simon Weiser [a 'modesty' activist in Williamsburg and the man behind the VosIzNeias ban], why are you worried about the grave moral danger of women wearing shorts instead instead of the actual physical danger of cars hitting children? [Satmar community activist in Williamsburg] Issac Abraham, why were you lobbying against a bike lane instead of lobbying for crossover mirrors?  

The over reliance on motor vehicles is a hard habit to break. I drive a car as well as ride a bicycle. Cars aren't evil, they  just aren't the safest option in crowded communities such as Williamsburg or Kiryas Joel, where children are playing joyfully everywhere. Buses, cars and trucks should be seen as they truly are, grave dangers to safety, accidents waiting to happen. Wise Rabbis should be focused on removing these threats from the streets as much as possible. Preventing another tragedy, another injured child, is worth it.

Critical Minyan is the pseudonym of a regular FailedMessiah.com commenter who is intimately acquainted with hasidic culture in Brooklyn.

Comments

[Abracadabra]

CM - Excellent Post!

[David]

Charedim, in general, are very poor drivers. They lack focus on the task at hand and are often distracted by undisciplined members of their litter riding along with them. I have even seen a chassid who, on a regular basis, drives to shul wearing tefillin and tallis and because of this has no peripheral vision and can't be in proper control of his vehicle. I hope the police book him one day. Also, charedim, because of their constant pressing urgency to do things (although few things of any great value) are reluctant to obey traffic lights, stop signs etc. and often ignore them altogether if they don't think there are any police around. Then, of course, is the often unroadworthy nature of their vehicles which are almost invariably beaten up, dirty (inside and out) and have minimal or no maintenance (in accordance with traditional frumma practices).

[dimlat]

I would have thought many of your readers , judging by the vitriol and bigotry so many of these learned liberals display, would rejoice in this " natural selection" and see it is an opportunity for some natural ethnic cleansing. Persuade me that you care!
This is not directed at the suthor, just many of the self-hating pundits.

[Jeff]

Excellent. I'm a little surprised about Hilkind, though. Couldn't he use this to his advantage?

[Critical minyan]

Thanks for posting.

[seymour]

safety is left to the government, or sometimes they would say that is goyish.

Since everything that is known is in the torah, and these issue are not the leaders ignore it

[Dimlat]

ALso, title is misleading - its not a zero sum game!! they are both important.

[Dimlat]

Seymour, your assertion is incorrect, physical safety is itself a religious imperative, enshrined in Halacha. Actually, for the record, Chamira Sakanta Me'isura - Danger is to be treated more stringently than (merely) a ritual proscription

[David]

Seymour, your assertion is incorrect, physical safety is itself a religious imperative, enshrined in Halacha. Actually, for the record, Chamira Sakanta Me'isura - Danger is to be treated more stringently than (merely) a ritual proscription

Posted by: Dimlat | May 17, 2011 at 06:55 AM

And yet, like so much other Halacha, is ignored by the Charedim. What Chutzpah (and worse) for them proclaiming themselves to be "religious".

[seymour]

Seymour, your assertion is incorrect, physical safety is itself a religious imperative, enshrined in Halacha. Actually, for the record, Chamira Sakanta Me'isura - Danger is to be treated more stringently than (merely) a ritual proscription

Posted by: Dimlat | May 17, 2011 at 06:55 AM

look at Davids comment.

herediem ignore halacha all the time to fit their lifestyle or the wants of their leaders

[jewishwhistleblower]

It seems few in our community are interested in protecting children. See the following documentary that deals in part with the same elements of the Satmar community among others.

see:
http://www.cjnews.com/index2.php?option=com_content&task=view&id=21345&pop=1&page=0&Itemid=86
... pedophilia in North American Orthodox Jewish com­­munities, the subject of a Vision TV documentary by Alan Mendelsohn due to be broadcast on May 16 at 10:30 p.m
...

see: http://www.earthbook.tv/religion/channelhome/channelphotosview/149/211/1710/

[Dimlat]

practice admittedly does not always follow principle, but semantics aside, a proclaimed fealty to a Divine system is preferable to Godlesness

[Dimlat]

Seymour, its not about blatantly ignoring Halacha, it is the lack of balance, not seeing Torah as an organic whole, and achieving a sense of priorities which is the problem, it does not delegitimise Halacha as a way of life - dont judge Judaism by the Jews, as the old saying goes.

[seymour]

Seymour, its not about blatantly ignoring Halacha, it is the lack of balance, not seeing Torah as an organic whole, and achieving a sense of priorities which is the problem, it does not delegitimise Halacha as a way of life - dont judge Judaism by the Jews, as the old saying goes.

Posted by: Dimlat | May 17, 2011 at 07:55 AM

I agree the herediem will put so many chumras and emphasis on non vital issue but in day to day issues whether safety, ethics, how to treat people they are very very lax.

They only pay attention to things we call bein odom lamokom. the other stuff is not emphasized in their yeshivas.

I do remember one rebbie in yeshiva blowing a shit fit. He said if you think the world owes you something because you are leaning Torah you are making a big mistake. Nobody owes you anything if you are not a nice person and have derech eratz for people. BY people he meant everybody Jews and Non Jews.

He blew up because in front of the yeshiva their was a very old black woman struggling with carrying her groceries. He said he stood outside and watched as one boy after another did not offer her any help.

He said he was shocked, so he went and offered to carry her groceries. Mind you he was an old man himself. I never saw a rebbie so mad.

The reason I remember that is because is was such an anomaly. It only happened once in my 14 years in yeshiva.

However, we would get such speeches about cholov yisreaol and that some where wearing a slight bell bottom or other nonsense weekly

[WoolSilkCotton]

Seymour, your story is sad but true. It is now to a point where rudeness and uncaring is even for their fellow frumma.

When I go shopping in Williamsburg or Boro Park, I never see anyone holding a door open for the next person. Frumma yidden, male or female, are shocked when I hold a door for them, or allow a woman with a baby carriage to go through ahead of me, or to pick something up for someone who dropped an object.

When driving, there is no such thing as a frummer driver showing courtesy to another driver or pedestrian, even if that person is also religious.

There is no civility in their world. Once you think it's ok to hate and be rude to 'outsiders', it is a small step to becoming the same way even to your 'own'.

[Yechiel]

Dimlat:
Dittos

[WoolSilkCotton]

The article is true.

Even if safety were taught in frumma schools, even if attitudes would change, in the Satmar side of Williamsburg you are still looking at an extremely overcrowded neighborhood. This is an area that once was, and still is, overlapped with an industrial part of Brooklyn. Northern Williamsburg, overlapping below Broadway, is still very much industrial. Trucks, loading docks, warehouses, etc.

This is not a place to raise children, no matter how well intentioned you may be, no matter how much safety you teach.

Years ago, when I was still in the frumma velt and starry-eyed about my 'new' life as a Chasidic Jew, I went to college in Brooklyn (LIU-Downtown), and had orthodox classmates who lived in Boro Park. I told them I would love to live in their neighborhood eventually. They said the goal of anyone who became educated and successful was to get the hell out of there as soon as they could. They explained why, but It took years for me to really understand what they meant.

The frumma neighborhoods are nice places to visit if you need a good bakery, food like from der alter heim, a minyan for a special occasion, religious items, or a new hat from Bencraft. Once it starts getting dark, you'd better head home.

[Jeff]

I don't see any way in which a strong parent/child bond can develop in a family with eight, ten, twelve kids - especially if the father is at kollel all day and the mother is struggling to support them.

DK had a regular commenter on his blog who was a nurse in a hospital in Israel. He told us that Haredi children were constantly coming in with injuries resulting from neglect - e.g., a baby would be crawling around on a counter and fall into a large vat of cholent (seriously). Often, family members would be too busy to spend any time with them there - a marginally-interested friend or relative would be dispatched - or were just too apathetic. They seemed to lack any real bond, and to regard the children almost as commodities. I'll never forget the way in which he described their attitude - "We burned the baby? No problem; we'll just make a new one!"

If a child dies, or is injured - well, it's unfortunate, but it isn't the end of the world. However, the idea that a child might accidentally see a photo of a woman on a billboard? Chos v'sholem! That's different; at that point, the parents' neshomos are in danger of eternal perdition for allowing it. It's an absolutely toxic worldview - as I keep saying, a collective psychosis.

But, that's right Haredim - just keep telling us how jealous we are of you and your holy Toyreh.

[WoolSilkCotton]

Dimlat, there is truth in what you say, but I cannot help but conclude there is something inherently wrong with the very core substance itself if it has lead to such erroneous conclusions and teachings from the leadership itself, trickling down to the everyday religious person on the street.

I reach conclusions about things if I see so many of the final products as being poorly functional.

If so many General Motors cars were lousy (at least up until a few years ago), isn't there something wrong with GM, and not just with all those individual cars?

[justayid]

woolsilkcotton

there are strollers showing up in North Williamsburg these days. And of course Park Slope. Your antiurban bias is being rejected by lots of young people who have no particular skin our religious disputes.

[justayid]

im missing the point of this post - there are no details about specific safety issues in Monsey - just an obviously absurd call to ban motor vehicles. I take this is meant as sarcasm, to "show" that hassidic opposition to bike lanes on Bedford Avenue isnt really about safety. As such its heavy handed and unfunny.

BTW -1. it pretty obvious that the opposition to bike lanes is about tzninius, fear of the outsider,whatever. I mean cmon.
2. The sarcastic column doesnt make the case that it is anyway. In this autocentric country, there are LOADS of folks - secular Jews, gentiles, etc - who dont like bikes and bike lanes, and who would never ban autos. At most, this shows the haredim have assimilated to the "american way of life"
3. In fact, cyclists are allowed by law to cycle on most public streets whether there is a bike lane striped OR NOT. Indeed, some cycling advocates dislike striping bike lanes, precisely because it gives people the idea that bikes are banned in other streets. For someone so concerned about cyclist rights (surely thats what the contrib is about, not a chance to slame pols for horsetrading with a voting bloc, right?) I would think you would know that

[Jeff]

He said he was shocked, so he went and offered to carry her groceries. Mind you he was an old man himself. I never saw a rebbie so mad.

The reason I remember that is because is was such an anomaly. It only happened once in my 14 years in yeshiva.

That's the reason he was shocked - he was an old man, and remembered the way Jewish communities used to be. Even then, he was the only example of this you saw in fourteen years.

Seymour, I assume it's been many years since you were in yeshiva - and, even at that point, their world had become what you saw, leading to what it is today. The world your rebbe once knew is gone, and it isn't coming back.

But they just keep insisting it's a friggin' paradise over there. They're the kindest, most generous, most compassionate people in the world. Just ask them; they'll tell you.

[WoolSilkCotton]

++justayid | May 17, 2011 at 09:44 AM++

Two of my kids live in North Williamsburg. I am at least as familiar with the area as you are.

'Those young people' move there because there is no place affordable to live in Manhattan. The young people moving to North Williamsburg have revitalized a desolate area that the City had given up on years ago. I remember North Williamsburg from the 1970's. Do you?

And let's keep in mind, the Satmar crowd hates them. Just read Satmar newspapers over the years, like I have, vilifying the 'artisten' of North Williamsburg.

Problems and disputes with the bike lanes in NYC are not unique to Williamsburg, but the Satmar hatred of the bicyclists is emblematic of their hatred of the 'artisten'.
Satmar would have rather been surrounded by desolate areas, facotries and warehouses than have young urban professionals living nearby, with their 'evil and sinful' lifestyles.

Satmar love, yeah, right.

[seymour]

Lately I have been cycling in Williamsburg on Bedford avenue and other avenues in Williamsburg Lee avenue Division and whatever.

I need a few more rides and then I will convey my feeling or write about my cycling experience in Williamsburg, as compared to other areas in the city.

I am trying to go at different times to really see what is going or not going on.

[Zalman Alpert]

I guess it is easy to blame community activists and politicians for all sorts of tragedies. Why not blame Hikind for the terror attacks in Tel Aviv ?
I very much doubt that any of the men mentioned are in any way part of the problem. Its like saying that the local school board in Smalltown USA should concentrate on getting needy kids lunch instead of supporting the schools..
The real problem is just the sheer number of kids most families in Chasidic Brooklyn have, including many kids under 5 at any given time in their lives under 35.
While articles have been written poiting out the beauty of the double digit families. Such families also have inherent problems , among them being the practical issue of lack of attention or supervision. If you have 11 kids ages 3 months to 13 years , how are you going to supervise them all, you need a teacher and asst. teachers to do this.
I ahve no answer to this issue , but its wrong to blame cars, trucks buses etc. Yes the drivers need tob e careful, but basically its the parent's duty to guard and supevise the kids, and a quick otur of Chasidic Brooklyn reveals a certain laxity in some cases.
I will add that the community rabbis should raise this issue and stress that supervision of kids is as important as lets say Cholov israel...

[seymour]

He said he was shocked, so he went and offered to carry her groceries. Mind you he was an old man himself. I never saw a rebbie so mad.

The reason I remember that is because is was such an anomaly. It only happened once in my 14 years in yeshiva.

That's the reason he was shocked - he was an old man, and remembered the way Jewish communities used to be. Even then, he was the only example of this you saw in fourteen years.

Seymour, I assume it's been many years since you were in yeshiva - and, even at that point, their world had become what you saw, leading to what it is today. The world your rebbe once knew is gone, and it isn't coming back.

But they just keep insisting it's a friggin' paradise over there. They're the kindest, most generous, most compassionate people in the world. Just ask them; they'll tell you.

Posted by: Jeff | May 17, 2011 at 09:59 AM

True that rebbie never disparaged secular Jews or gentiles the way many do today. He believed in Humanity.

Today I cringe when I visit relatives the way they talk about goyim

another weird story,

One day I was talking to a heride about Princess Diana, he was from England

He said that one time he met Princess Diana in a hospital. She ask him why he was there. he said to visit my grandmother and that she is a fan of yours. So, Princess Diana went with him to say hello, and asked for the number so she can check on her.

He said that about two weeks later they get a call from Princess Diana asked how the grandmother was and said hello to her. He was stunned shocked that she actually called back.

I assumed it was because she was Princess Diana why should she call or have time to call this old lady.

I was wrong, he was shocked that a Goy could have empathy or rachmones or care about another human being.

This is what they teach in some heriedie yeshivas

[seymour]

I guess it is easy to blame community activists and politicians for all sorts of tragedies. Why not blame Hikind for the terror attacks in Tel Aviv ?
I very much doubt that any of the men mentioned are in any way part of the problem. Its like saying that the local school board in Smalltown USA should concentrate on getting needy kids lunch instead of supporting the schools..
The real problem is just the sheer number of kids most families in Chasidic Brooklyn have, including many kids under 5 at any given time in their lives under 35.
While articles have been written poiting out the beauty of the double digit families. Such families also have inherent problems , among them being the practical issue of lack of attention or supervision. If you have 11 kids ages 3 months to 13 years , how are you going to supervise them all, you need a teacher and asst. teachers to do this.
I ahve no answer to this issue , but its wrong to blame cars, trucks buses etc. Yes the drivers need tob e careful, but basically its the parent's duty to guard and supevise the kids, and a quick otur of Chasidic Brooklyn reveals a certain laxity in some cases.
I will add that the community rabbis should raise this issue and stress that supervision of kids is as important as lets say Cholov israel...

Posted by: Zalman Alpert | May 17, 2011 at 11:04 AM

Have less kids

problem solved

and do not ask others to pay if you cannot afford to have so many kids

[WoolSilkCotton]

Seymour 11:08, I would also add "If you have kids, think first how will you provide for them, what will you provide, where will they sleep, play, have a life? On overcrowded streets in a dirty ghetto near factories and filth and constant heavy traffic?"

[Deremes]

"Consider in contrast, the reaction, the furor, to the bike lanes that were put up in Williamsburg. Many Chasidic politicians and spokespeople spoke out against the bike lanes, calling them a threat to safety, potentially damaging to pedestrians and to mothers pushing strollers. These efforts are severely, harmfully misdirected. Bicycles don't kill children, motor vehicles do. Focus on that and lives will be saved.

Everyone knows that the battle against bicycles is not really about safety, it's about protecting the community from outside public influences, from change, from modernization. Most Chasidim would love to ride bicycles within their community but avoid it out of shame, or worse, out of extortion from the religious radicals that control the school system and the taxpayer funded disbursements from the Williamsburg Jewish councils."

So you are for the idea of abolishing cars.
Seems like you work for the DOT and its biker lady commissioner.

Look at the noise the residents of Prospect Park made when the bike lane was installed.
Any neighborhood where a bike lane is installed there is noise about it.
No one besides Bloomberg and his biker lady and and the few stupid bikers,wants bike lanes.
Ask any Manhattan driver about the bike lanes and they will all tell you the bikers have no regard for the law and are a bunch of crazies.

Good for Wiilamsburg that they had the power to remove the stupid bike lanes.

[seymour]

Good for Wiilamsburg that they had the power to remove the stupid bike lanes.

Posted by: Deremes | May 17, 2011 at 11:21 AM

where I live they put bike lanes
no issues what so ever and anyway Bedford avenue is a direct avenue to the willamburg Bridge and that is why a lane is needed

[Deremes]

"When I go shopping in Williamsburg or Boro Park, I never see anyone holding a door open for the next person. Frumma yidden, male or female, are shocked when I hold a door for them, or allow a woman with a baby carriage to go through ahead of me, or to pick something up for someone who dropped an object.

When driving, there is no such thing as a frummer driver showing courtesy to another driver or pedestrian, even if that person is also religious.

There is no civility in their world. Once you think it's ok to hate and be rude to 'outsiders', it is a small step to becoming the same way even to your 'own'.
Posted by: WoolSilkCotton | May 17, 2011 at 09:13 AM"

When i go to Teenack NJ i never see anyone bla bla bla.

Come on,never? it all depends in the person.Your luck that you encounter uncivilized people.

Talk about civility,

Have you ever double parked or blocked a driveway in a frumma neighborhood? ok,you don't do that because you are from the ubermentchen.But it does happen among people for whatever reason,not that its right.

The person you blocked will probably give a blow the horn and when you come out the person will say:this is not fair or something like it.

Have you ever double parked or blocked a driveway in the ubermentchen neighborhood?

My oh my what cursing happens when the person comes moving the car.

"Once it starts getting dark, you'd better head home.

Posted by: WoolSilkCotton | May 17, 2011 at 09:13 AM"

Explain please

[WoolSilkCotton]

Deremes, basic good manners are known as mentschlichkeit. They are not known as uber-menschlichkeit.

"you encounter uncivilized people" Yes, too many such people among the frumma. Mentschlichkeit- basic good manners- is not an important value there.

I do not double park, block a driveway, or violate parking laws, because it is illegal and not menschlich to do so. It should not require a lot of brain power on your part to understand this.
Most people in most decent neighborhoods do not violate these laws.
Frumma yidden routinely violate these laws, for reasons that you can explain better than me.

If I cannot find a parking space, I drive a little further until I do. I park on 11th Avenue and walk over to 13th Avenue. i bring a shopping carriage. I do not violate parking laws or block other cars or driveways. The vast majority of civilized people also obey these rules. It does not require uber-anything, just basic civility. Please explain why this is lacking in religious neighborhoods.

"Once it starts getting dark, you'd better head home". Please give me a reason to stay, once the stores are closed.

[seymour]

WoolSilkCotton Deremes

no one is saying it does not happens in other areas, of course it does.

the difference is that in frum communities it happens at a much higher rate or maybe the norm.

My mothers and her neighbors driveway is many times blocked by chassedeim since their is a shul down the block.
They do not leave a note with a cell phone number.

and when they do come they almost never ever even apologize they just look at you and get in their car.

since they feel they did nothing wrong.

This did not happen when the area was frum but not chasedeish. So the problem is not with the frum but chasedeim

[seymour]

WoolSilkCotton Deremes

it reminds me the story that was ijn the daily news of a chusid that was pissed that he got a ticket over yom tov because he parked in a no parking zone.

what chuzpha some have

[Deremes]

Wsc,

I did say that its not right but still it happens.And yes its against the law.

And if it happens which it happens alot,see at the difference between the ubermentchen and the frumma response.

Frumma yidden are not all about themselves there not about ich,ich ich. They have far more mentchlachkiet and have regard for someone else then the Ubermentchen.

The Ubermentchen will not put a finger for their next door neighbor.

"Once it starts getting dark, you'd better head home". Please give me a reason to stay, once the stores are closed."

I highly doubt that this is what you meant when you said it before.

[Deremes]

"it reminds me the story that was ijn the daily news of a chusid that was pissed that he got a ticket over yom tov because he parked in a no parking zone.

what chuzpha some have

Posted by: Posted by: seymour | May 17, 2011 at 12:06 PM"

Just for curiosity,can you give a link to that story?

[Jeff]

I was wrong, he was shocked that a Goy could have empathy or rachmones or care about another human being.

This is what they teach in some heriedie yeshivas

Posted by: seymour | May 17, 2011 at 11:06 AM

Yeah - most, I imagine.

Quite a story. I'm not surprised; I hear she was like that, and, contrary to what her husband's family said of her, she took her position seriously. I think her boys are like that as well.

[WoolSilkCotton]

Deremes, look at the archives from the time of yom tov during Sept and Oct in VIN and CrownHeights.info. We cannot do your homework for you.

Deremes, you have never lived in a non-chasidic/litvish/whatever black hat neighborhood, and so you keep saying that non-frumma are ubermenschen, not polite, etc.
You base all your knowledge on the drek you hear from other frumma, all based upon fear and ignorance.

Visit a modern orthodox, convservative or reform Jewish neighborhood in suburban New Jersey. The politeness will shock you, and you will deny that we are Jews because we are 'too polite' by what you are accustomed to being 'Jewish' standards. Very sad that that is what you are used to.

[WoolSilkCotton]

++"Once it starts getting dark, you'd better head home". Please give me a reason to stay, once the stores are closed."

I highly doubt that this is what you meant when you said it before.

Posted by: Deremes | May 17, 2011 at 12:15 PM++

Look at the crime reported on CrownHeights.info or VIN or other frumma sites. So please tell me why I should stick around after dark. Not only are the stores closed, I am not recognized as a Jew by people like you, and I am also a target for local thugs.

[WoolSilkCotton]

Deremes, I did your homework for you:

http://www.vosizneias.com/82021/2011/04/22/
williamsburg-ny-passover-ticket-blitz-causes-fury/

"...Alternate-side parking rules were suspended Tuesday and Wednesday for the first two days of Passover—when observant Jews do not work or drive—but cops still wrote a slew of tickets for other offenses.
Zev Deutsch, a father of eight, shelled out $205 for towing and storage to get his minivan from the pound, and faces two tickets, at $115 each, for parking in a no-standing zone. “It ruined my holiday,” he fumed.
NYPD spokesman Paul Browne said no cars were towed for alternate-side-of-the-street violations..."

http://www.nypost.com/p/news/local/brooklyn/
passover_ticket_rage_cH2maJqlFFDmojbw9cnXdN

Take a look at the comments section, and read about how your friends from Hatzoloh park.

[Jeff]

Posted by: WoolSilkCotton | May 17, 2011 at 12:47 PM

Interesting that most of the comments beneath that VIN article criticize those who parked and complained about getting tickets. Perhaps there are a few in that world who understand that it isn't all about them. Of course, you do have the one moron who pulls out the obligatory "self-hating Jew". Funny; they got that phrase from us, now they can't stop using it. I'm sure they think their rebbeim invented it.

Meanwhile, WSC, there's an abbreviation in this comment I don't understand:

Its a shame that a $150 ticket or a $300 tow charge could "Ruin" a Yom Tov. If your kid broke a leg L"O, that shouldn't "ruin" your yom tov. But for a ticket. Whoever says their yom tov was ruined because of such a trivial matter is a shanda

What does L"O stand for? "Chos v'sholem" I'm familiar with, but this one I haven't seen before.

[steve]

THANK YOU CRITICAL MINYAN FOR YOUR WELL WRITTEN POST. I HAVE MADE A FEW ALTERATIONS:

Rabbi [David] Neiderman [head of a powerful Williamsburg-based Satmar community organization], why were you fighting against a bike lane when you should have been fighting for safer YESHIVOS (like removing serial molester Reichman from UTA)? Simon Weiser [a 'modesty' activist in Williamsburg and the man behind the VosIzNeias ban], why are you worried about the grave moral danger of women wearing shorts instead instead of the actual physical danger of SEXUAL PREDATORS MOLESTING OUR children? [Satmar community activist in Williamsburg] Issac Abraham, why were you lobbying against a bike lane instead of lobbying for BRINGING CHILD MOLESTERS TO JUSTICE!

Wise Rabbis should be focused on removing the threat OF CHILD SEX ABUSERS from the streets, schools and mikvaos as much as possible. Preventing another tragedy, another molested child, is worth it.

[Deremes]

"Once it starts getting dark, you'd better head home". Please give me a reason to stay, once the stores are closed.
Posted by: WoolSilkCotton | May 17, 2011 at 11:49 AM

I highly doubt that this is what you meant when you said it before.
Posted by: Deremes | May 17, 2011 at 12:15

Look at the crime reported on CrownHeights.info or VIN or other frumma sites. So please tell me why I should stick around after dark. Not only are the stores closed, I am not recognized as a Jew by people like you, and I am also a target for local thugs.
Posted by: WoolSilkCotton | May 17, 2011 at 12:36 PM"

Figured it had a different explanation

[seymour]

Deremes.

Frumma yidden are not all about themselves there not about ich,ich ich. They have far more mentchlachkiet and have regard for someone else then the Ubermentchen.

-----------------------------------

these is what you belive I have no doubt but it is based on lies

people like you and many, not all, people on vin will always comment when there is a story how yidden get together to do good or look for a missing child. they say, we do not see that by others to show how their chesed is unique and superior.

I shocked them and link them to many stories that it took me about one second to find on any search engine numerous stories exactly like the stories of yidden getting together to look for a child and similar stories of chesed.

It just that you and others do not want to know about such stories and neither does your publications mention that, since it will destroy your belief that others do not do such chedesd, and the ultra frum is unique in this.

In a similar vain again on VIn many people mentioned about satmer bikur cholem and goyen do not do that or have organizations that do that. I really think they belive that

But again a lie to make them feel superior by belittling others.

Churches and non religious do the same thing and I may add better and nicer job.

when my father was very sick, of course bikur cholem came and we appreciated it. However I noticed that if the person sharing the room with my father was a gentle they ignore him day after day week after week not even saying hello.

The church people always stopped by my father and asked him how he was. In addition, when they came with food or snacks they always made sure the food was kosher.

Big difference

[WoolSilkCotton]

Jeff, I never heard of L'O either. The VIN crowd has a language all their own, and it's not English.

[Deremes]

WSC,
I had a change of heart and i will spill the beans on the frumma velt.

The rabbis don't care about children. All they care is about power and money.

A child gets killed,big deal

A child gets molested,even better.

The rabbis protect child molesters because they are molesters themselves.

According to statistics in the frum community:
One out of five boys are molested ,one out of two girls are raped,one out of three is on drugs.Pregnancy in the frum community is about 30%.

The signs that were posted about women moving to the side when a man comes across carry meaning and threats.

Women who don't move to the side when a man comes across:

they will often be shunned.

Their children may be kept out of better schools or all schools.

And rarely, they may be physically assaulted.

[Deremes]

Seymour,

You don't have to tell me how evil the Bikur Chlim Organizations are.
They care only about Jews and in most part frum Jews.
We should learn from the church how nice and polite they are not only to goyim.

Those dam frumma

[WoolSilkCotton]

Deremes, at some Freudian level, you are saying what you know is the case.

[wannabe]

"Jeff, I never heard of L'O either. The VIN crowd has a language all their own, and it's not English."

i assume it is לא עלינו

[ez]

"Most Chasidim would love to ride bicycles within their community but avoid it out of shame, or worse, out of extortion from the religious radicals that control the school system"
how false, ive seen chasidim on a regular basis riding bikes.
and the whole premise of your article is that motor vehicles are dangerous, well bike lanes add to the roads/motor vehicles being dangerous. also besides for the fact that the mayor and the city focus on bike lanes over more vital projects. is ridiculus
dumb article.

[seymour]

Seymour,

You don't have to tell me how evil the Bikur Chlim Organizations are.
They care only about Jews and in most part frum Jews.
We should learn from the church how nice and polite they are not only to goyim.

Those dam frumma

Posted by: Deremes | May 17, 2011 at 01:34 PM

I forgot since the frummies are perfect and everything that is good they would know there is no need to reflect or learn from others

I for got about that

[critical minyan]

EZ, you are right. more chasidim are riding bikes in williamsburg. However, I disagree with your next statement that the streets are more dangerous with more bikes in them. Bike lanes make the roads safer, because they alert the motor vehicle traffic to other traffic on the road. The more slow moving bikes and the less fast moving cars, the safer the roads will be for the children.

Think about how to prevent the next tragedy, so one less mother, one less family, one less child, has to suffer. The answer is simple - less cars on the street. Period.

[seymour]

EZ, you are right. more chasidim are riding bikes in williamsburg. However, I disagree with your next statement that the streets are more dangerous with more bikes in them. Bike lanes make the roads safer, because they alert the motor vehicle traffic to other traffic on the road. The more slow moving bikes and the less fast moving cars, the safer the roads will be for the children.

Think about how to prevent the next tragedy, so one less mother, one less family, one less child, has to suffer. The answer is simple - less cars on the street. Period.

Posted by: critical minyan | May 17, 2011 at 02:19 PM

as a cyclist I do not see the bike lane that much safer. But that is just me, I know many cyclist who disagree

however simple arithmetic should apply. More people ride or commute to work less cars safer streets.

Getting hit by a bike is much more preferable than getting hit by a car.

maybe the chasediem do not like that many woman will ride and start a conversation from their wife's or daughters as to why they cannot ride a bike. Since they will see many woman dressed appropriately and yet they ride

[seymour]

Deremes,

I wonder do you read the frum blogs at all.

at least we say what actions and why we have problems with the frum.

On the frum web site they do not need to do that conservative reform is bad even if it is a good story about them they will attack

[Deremes]

seymour,

When you say frum you mean Jewish. Because remember you are not against the frumma but against Jews in general.
You say that you don't believe in anything that says in the Torah.You don't believe in olam haboh and not in the thirteen eikreim.
I assume that conservative reform believe in some things or many but reformed it to their convenience.

[Jay]

I can't see how bike lanes can work in NYC. There are so many cars and taxis, and the streets are so crowded with pedestrians; it just seems unfeasible.

[WoolSilkCotton]

Deremes, you know nothing about Jews who do not have black hats and beards. You are disconnected from Jewish reality.

Please come visit another community outside of your velt. You will be pleasantly surprised.

[David]

I was wrong, he was shocked that a Goy could have empathy or rachmones or care about another human being.

I know of a frumma guy who was bought up being taught that goyim were evil, untrustworthy baby-eaters. Being one of the few frumma who bothered to work, he was eventually exposed to the non-Jewish world and was shocked to find this was not the case and he had been taught lies his whole life.

[seymour]

seymour,

When you say frum you mean Jewish. Because remember you are not against the frumma but against Jews in general.
You say that you don't believe in anything that says in the Torah.You don't believe in olam haboh and not in the thirteen eikreim.
I assume that conservative reform believe in some things or many but reformed it to their convenience.

Posted by: Deremes | May 17, 2011 at 02:53 PM

your nuts, not believing that god gave the torah does not mean one is against Jews. I know that is frumma why of thinking to bad you cannot think out of you bubble

why is that so hard to understand?

[seymour]

Deremes, you know nothing about Jews who do not have black hats and beards. You are disconnected from Jewish reality.

Please come visit another community outside of your velt. You will be pleasantly surprised.

Posted by: WoolSilkCotton | May 17, 2011 at 03:10 PM

since only his type are Jewish that is realty as he sees it

[Deremes]

Posted by: WoolSilkCotton | May 17, 2011 at 03:10 PM

I dealt with many Jews who don't have beards and black hats.I went to their simchas and they to mine. I know about them as much as you know about the frumma.
If i had been disconnected,i wouldn't of known of FM even by now after the big picture story.

[Deremes]

Posted by: seymour | May 17, 2011 at 03:19 PM

So besides that you were born to Jewish parents and because of that you will rot in hell (if you believe in din vechbon or not),how else are you Jewish?

[seymour]

if you cannot have a normal conversation I will not respond.

and seeing the way you talk to other Jews I will see you there

[WoolSilkCotton]

Deremes, if you were really a Torah Jew, you would not talk to other Jews in such an evil way, especially if you were truly concerned about their spirituality.

I can only conclude that you are not a real Torah Jew, just a meshugener fraud would is looking to irritate everyone else here.

Have a nice day, and gay gezunter heit.

[David]

DK had a regular commenter on his blog who was a nurse in a hospital in Israel. He told us that Haredi children were constantly coming in with injuries resulting from neglect - e.g., a baby would be crawling around on a counter and fall into a large vat of cholent (seriously). Often, family members would be too busy to spend any time with them there - a marginally-interested friend or relative would be dispatched - or were just too apathetic. They seemed to lack any real bond, and to regard the children almost as commodities. I'll never forget the way in which he described their attitude - "We burned the baby? No problem; we'll just make a new one!"

Posted by: Jeff | May 17, 2011 at 09:19 AM

A disturbing case Jeff, but what you say is consistent with what I observe. I know of a similar case where a baby drowned because the parents left it in the care of a six year old while they went to a store to get something.

o In frumma families it is usually the older children that raise the younger children,

o children are often rude because the only way they can get attention is to shout louder than the others or be naughty,

o children are conceived for no other reason than to produce yet another follower for their rebbe, the parents' ability to love and care for the kids and the parents' ability to pay for them is of no consequence

o the parents are not attentive to what their children are doing,

o the children are also more likely to do dangerous things because they lack proper education and they tend to be not risk-averse because they don't understand risk (no education)

o and secondly, they are bored out of their brains due to a lack of mental stimulation with interesting activities (its Torah, Torah, Torah! and nothing else 24/7),

o they can't have pets because most useful pets are not kosher,

and I could write more but you get the idea.

[Deremes]

WSC,Seymour:

Interesting, both of you write the most vile disgusting things on frum Jews.
From your writings,frum Jews are the worse of human kind.
If anyone would write anything close on blacks,they would be banned and be labeled as racist.
And if anyone says something in response which hits you hard,you act like cry babies.

Btw,the only reason i told seymore about hell becuase he doesn't believe in it anyways.

[seymour]

WSC,Seymour:

Interesting, both of you write the most vile disgusting things on frum Jews.
From your writings,frum Jews are the worse of human kind.
If anyone would write anything close on blacks,they would be banned and be labeled as racist.
And if anyone says something in response which hits you hard,you act like cry babies.

Btw,the only reason i told seymore about hell becuase he doesn't believe in it anyways.

Posted by: Deremes | May 17, 2011 at 04:15 PM

wring we scream loudly or make fun about some frum behavior or hypocrisy

big difference

again if I say I do not belive does not mean I hate the belive

get it

[seymour]

Deremes

I have said many times I have no or very little issues with the modern orthdox

[Yochanan Lavie]

Apologies to Johnny Rivers:

There's a man whose kids are all in danger
To everyone he meets he stays a stranger
With every move he makes his rabbi tells him what shakes
Odds are he won't live to see tomorrow

refrain:
Secret chosid man, secret chosid man
They've given you a Rebbe and taken away your brain

Beware of gentile faces that you find
A gentile face does hide an evil mind
Oy, be careful what you say
It's loshon harah, oy vey
Odds are you won't live to see tomorrow

refrain

[Lead guitar]

refrain

Davening in Borough Park one day
Riding in the Willyburg bike lane next day
Oy vey, you saw Hilary's slip
By not obeying censorship
The odds are you won't live to see tomorrow

refrain

Secret chosid man

[WoolSilkCotton]

Deremes, I have problems with people who lie and cheat and steal, and then people like you wonder why I won't stick up for them.

[Jeff]

Yochanan, you're dating yourself!

[WoolSilkCotton]

Deremes, you are not a Jew.
I cannot believe you ever studied the Torah.

You have never expressed anything kind or positive towards any other Jews.
You are obsessed with attacking Seymour for some strange reason, just because he does not agree with your feelings about religiousness.

Remember, Deremes, as The Beatles sang, "the love you take is equal to the love you make".

[Yochanan Lavie]

Jeff: I hit the big five-oh soon. See my other parody on the Rubashkin post.

[Jeff]

children are conceived for no other reason than to produce yet another follower for their rebbe, the parents' ability to love and care for the kids and the parents' ability to pay for them is of no consequence

...and I could write more but you get the idea.

Posted by: David | May 17, 2011 at 04:09 PM

Yes, certainly. They're gender-segregated from a young age, bombarded constantly with the idea that the sexual impulse is the source of all sin (I had a Satmar tell me as much 35 years ago, before they were as bad as they are now), then thrown together at the age of - what, 18, 20? - as strangers, and told to procreate, all the while listening to the rebbaim go on and on and on about the dangers of sexual arousal in any form.

I wasn't at all surprised by what the other fellow told us, or by what you're telling us now. I can't see any way in which what we consider to be normal, healthy affection - between spouses, or between parent and child - could develop. I have to see them as profoundly damaged. The regimentation under which they live may be the only thing that prevents many of them from going postal worker.

[Jeff]

I hit the big five-oh soon.

Oh, you're younger than I am. I'm 54. Since I turned 50, i can't remember a damn thing!

[Jeff]

i assume it is לא עלינו

Posted by: wannabe | May 17, 2011 at 01:54 PM

"Lo Aleinu"? I Googled it and found one or two references, but I couldn't find a meaning.

[WoolSilkCotton]

YL, I suspect you are the baby of the bunch here (I'm 55).

[seymour]

not to us

[seymour]

i assume it is לא עלינו

Posted by: wannabe | May 17, 2011 at 01:54 PM

"Lo Aleinu"? I Googled it and found one or two references, but I couldn't find a meaning.

Posted by: Jeff | May 17, 2011 at 06:43 PM 20

not to us

[seymour]

YL,

I think an album with some videos can be a big hit or money makers.

Like weird al yankowitz

[Yochanan Lavie]

Thanks, guys.

[Jeff]

not to us

Posted by: seymour | May 17, 2011 at 07:12 PM

Oh, as in "May it not happen to us". I get it.

[Flatbush girl]

I've observed very young children in Boro Park walking along sidewalks all by themselves. I was recently walking somewhere in the 50's numbered streets and saw the cutest little identical boy twins no older than 4 or 5 walking around the corner from 11th Avenue. I waited to see where their adult companion was...and I waited and waited. And waited. They were all alone. What if I were a kidnapper or a predator? I kept an eye on them until they entered what I presume was their home.

[Ferdy Ferd]

I know for a fact that Shimon Weiser reads every word here, so let me just say, fuck you, and fuck you again, and again.

If I were you, I'd brace myself for the legal he'll that's about to strike.

[chayim heller]

syemor you are not a yid you are a GUY shame on your mother that she had a son like you