Magen Tzedek Responds To Agudath Israel Of America

The misleading statement by Agudath Israel concerning Magen Tzedek is a misrepresentation of a very important development in kosher food production in America. Magen Tzedek is based on our assertion that Biblical and Rabbinic law mandate fair treatment of workers (לא תלין), humane treatment of animals ((צער בעלי חיים, and care of the earth (בל תשחית and שמירת הארץ) which can be translated into measurable standards applicable to commercial food production.

 

Magen Tzedek Responds to Agudath Israel

The misleading statement by Agudath Israel concerning Magen Tzedek is a misrepresentation of a very important development in kosher food production in America. Magen Tzedek is based on our assertion that Biblical and Rabbinic law mandate fair treatment of workers (לא תלין), humane treatment of animals ((צער בעלי חיים, and care of the earth (בל תשחית and שמירת הארץ) which can be translated into measurable standards applicable to commercial food production. These standards were developed in collaboration with SAAS, an organization acknowledged worldwide for its expertise in ethical certification programs.

We are appalled that Agudah Israel sees in ethical certification for kosher food an effort that "corrupts Halakhah." All Jews recognize that Judaism is a religion built upon ethical precepts. The ultimate purpose of Jewish observance is to make us more decent and moral people, more capable of carrying out God's vision of a just world.

We flatly reject Agudath Israel's false accusations that we "harbor no respect for the very concept of halakhah." We have always maintained that the Magen Tzedek would only be awarded to products already bearing kosher certification. Magen Tzedek maintains that Mitzvot bein Adam L'makom (commandments between humanity and God) do not take precedence over Mitzvot bein Adam l'havero (commandments between one person and another).

Maimonides stated said that in fulfillment of Jewish life "one must be strict in their behavior and still go beyond the letter of the law- lifnim mshurat hadin.  We see our role as ensuring that such is the case in the production of kosher food.  Just as we would never delegate to the government to determine what constitutes proper kashrut certification, neither should we leave to the government enforcement of Jewish norms regarding ethical behavior. Instead of dismissing the work of one another, we call on all Jews to work together to ensure that our actions are truly a Kiddush Hashem--a sanctification of God's name.

Magen Tzedek affirms the eternal wisdom of Torah by bringing the moral values of Jewish religious tradition to bear on the daily operations of industrial food production, bringing more Jews to value the beauty of kashrut and Jewish observance assuring that we feel truly fulfilled when we sit down around our tables for a meal.

Rabbi Michael Siegal
Magen Tzedek Co-Chair

Gerald Kobell
Magen Tzedek Co-Chair

Rabbi Morris Allen
Project Director

Related Post: Conservative Ethics Hechsher "A Falsification Of True Judaism," Agudath Israel Says.

Comments

[Dave]

Very well said.

[Doresh el HaMeisim]

Would someone be so kind and enlighten me where I can find in the Torah the term "שמירת הארץ"?

[Gevezener Chusid]

Amen.

A Hassidic rebbe of blessed memory once told me (half humorously but with a serious message) that if it's a question of mitzvos between God and man or mitzvos between a person and his fellow human being, the latter is MORE important because while someone might be able to tolerate offenses against himself, he will NOT tolerate anyone treating his children improperly - God is no different, and we are all children of God.

[c s Fisher Gaba of r. ahron Teitelbaum]

no such thing as SHMIRAS HURETZ the only thing is KDUSHAS HURETZ in eretz yisruel .or AM HURETZ

[BibleBeltJew]

"Shmeerat haAretz" = funny. Conceptually, I get it, but let's not invent quotes/phrasology from the Torah to fit our agenda, no matter how well-intentioned. How 'bout them Mets?

[ah-pee-chorus]

shame on the aguda once again. they are filthy disgusting and power hungry jerks,to put it mildly.
they could have kept their mouths shut and let those people that find the hechsher tsedek to be an additional layer of assurance seek it out on their purchases. i certainly would never expect them to get behind this noble cause. but to feel the need to issue a dishonest , misleading, and maligning statement shows what the agudath israel is all about. contolling their mindless flock, and protecting their monetary interests. caring about the very issues which a moral person should be concerned with, such as fair treatment of workers and animals, and respecting their fellow jews, does not even make the list of the aguda.
their implicit goal of pushing their sheeple to strong-arm both consumers and stores so as to prevent any adoption of the new symbol is horrific.

[Yaakov]

"the ultimate purpose of Torah is to be moral to people"

Wrong.

Torah, only tells us to be ethical to fellow Yidden, not to Goyim. You can find this distinction in every aspect of Jewish Law.

I wish we can create a new jewish religion that would tell us, to love ALL our fellow human beings. But for now this is what we have. To start a new religion is too expensive

[Yoily Weiss]

Shmirat Ha'aretz? Um. I guess it could be included in Bal Tashchis. There is also the halacha about not cutting down fruit trees.

Lo Sashchis Es Eitzah Lindo'ach Aleha Garzen Ki Mimenu Sikach etc. etc. Which means, "Don't destroy its [the land's] trees... for you eat from their fruit, and because a man is the tree of the field."

[Yoily Weiss]

Aside from the incomprehensible "Shmirat Ha'aretz," the letter is powerful and clear. I always appreciate good writing, so thanks!

[WoolSilkCotton]

++Torah, only tells us to be ethical to fellow Yidden, not to Goyim. ++

Yaakov, be sure to tell this to every non-Jew you meet.

And also be sure to mention that you would gladly take organs from them, but you will not donate any to them.

They'll love you for it.

[WoolSilkCotton]

++To start a new religion is too expensive++

Best line of the day!

[seymour]

excellent response but as can see from comments here that it will fall on deaf ears on the ethicaly challenged frum people

[seymour]

"Shmeerat haAretz" = funny. Conceptually, I get it, but let's not invent quotes/phrasology from the Torah to fit our agenda, no matter how well-intentioned. How 'bout them Mets?

Posted by: BibleBeltJew | May 05, 2011 at 12:36 PM

you mean like makings things up like not eating milk and meat that does not say anywhere in the torah

[seymour]

the ultimate purpose of Torah is to be moral to people"

Wrong.

Torah, only tells us to be ethical to fellow Yidden, not to Goyim. You can find this distinction in every aspect of Jewish Law.

I wish we can create a new jewish religion that would tell us, to love ALL our fellow human beings. But for now this is what we have. To start a new religion is too expensive

Posted by: Yaakov | May 05, 2011 at 12:55 PM

simply false

the people who the torah had a problem with were from groups that the Israelite had wars with. And in that time prisoners where slaves. But even them one could no do with them as one pleases

Nowhere in The torah does it say to apply that to all non Jews.

Only the robbonum made that up as they made up 99% of the other stuff that say.

So what good for the orthodox should be good for the conservatives.

if I take your comment seriously you should be eating milk and meat and should not wear teffilin

[Office of the Chief Rabbi]

I think the long-winded Conservative rabbis used too many words to say "Fuck you" to the Aguda. However, as many men measure their stature by how many inches they have (column inches, in this case), they will get more column inches with a long press release than with a shorter press release.

[ah-pee-chorus]

you mean like makings things up like not eating milk and meat that does not say anywhere in the torah

Posted by: seymour |

so true seymour...
isnt it funny that wearing a yarmulke is not only never mentioned in the torah but is not even derived from the torah. it started because some yokel in the gemarra thought it was a good reminder of something above. and yet THAT became holy halacha, but simple morality and treating the earth properly for future inhabitants somehow cant find any traction. that is a sad commentary on the dangers of basing ones morality on lies and myths.

[BibleBeltJew]

Seymour, I do believe the concept of chalav v'basar is referenced a few times in the Chumash, and at length in the Torah sh ba'al peh (specifically in Chullin), and is expounded upon in the Shulchan Aruch (YD), but you should probably consult your LOR just for confirmation, as I am no posek.

[Doresh el HaMeisim]

I wonder where ethics have a connection with kashrus? G-D is the source of mercy מקור הרחמים, but nowhere does it say in Torah that a product manufactured unethically is forbidden to be eaten.
See pesachim 40b, that only he who studies torah is allowed to eat meat, also see there about the hatred of an am haaretz for a talmid chacham.
I also wonder what the position of "magen tzedek" is on "molesting of Jewish children", and if they remove offending rabbis from their pulpits? Or is it only goyim and animals that they are worried about?

[Leah]

This is so dead in the water. Kashrus is mostly an Orthodox thing. I understand the need or want of the other branches of Judaism to "get in" on the Kashrus business but it just won't work - mark my words.

[seymour]

Seymour, I do believe the concept of chalav v'basar is referenced a few times in the Chumash, and at length in the Torah sh ba'al peh (specifically in Chullin), and is expounded upon in the Shulchan Aruch (YD), but you should probably consult your LOR just for confirmation, as I am no posek.

Posted by: BibleBeltJew | May 05, 2011 at 02:27 PM

I do not need a posuk since i know what it says in the torah.

it say do not cook a calf with its mothers milk three times.

That is all from there the rebbies somehow concluded it means do not eat milk and meat in any case.

Therefore, one can see that one can a sentence to have a whole new meaning.

And what Rabbi Michael Siegal says is much closer to the teat of the torah then the milk and meat law. and the tefillin law

[corn popper]

Seymour,
Do you wear Tefilin? What does it look like? Have you seen that in the Torah?

Are you circumcised? Where? Have you seen that in the Torah?

[seymour]

you mean like makings things up like not eating milk and meat that does not say anywhere in the torah

Posted by: seymour |

so true seymour...
isnt it funny that wearing a yarmulke is not only never mentioned in the torah but is not even derived from the torah. it started because some yokel in the gemarra thought it was a good reminder of something above. and yet THAT became holy halacha, but simple morality and treating the earth properly for future inhabitants somehow cant find any traction. that is a sad commentary on the dangers of basing ones morality on lies and myths.

Posted by: ah-pee-chorus | May 05, 2011 at 02:26 PM

what is really sad is they do not follow they own books

in tanach there are numerous passages that the prophets condemned the Israelite's for only caring about ritual prayers sacrifices and so on and not being good neighbors (other people not Jews)

And says god does not except your sacrifices hear your pryers if you do not treat your neighbors well.

maybe that is why the yeshivas do not teach tenach

[seymour]

Seymour,
Do you wear Tefilin? What does it look like? Have you seen that in the Torah?

Are you circumcised? Where? Have you seen that in the Torah?

Posted by: corn popper | May 05, 2011 at 02:47 PM

thank you you proved my point it is all made up by men, even if one believes that god wrote the torah

[corn popper]

Seymour,
As the self proclaimed vanguard for all mitzvos bein adam l'chaveiro, are you also as scrupulous in mitzvos bein adam l'makom?

[seymour]

I wonder where ethics have a connection with kashrus? G-D is the source of mercy מקור הרחמים, but nowhere does it say in Torah that a product manufactured unethically is forbidden to be eaten.
See pesachim 40b, that only he who studies torah is allowed to eat meat, also see there about the hatred of an am haaretz for a talmid chacham.
I also wonder what the position of "magen tzedek" is on "molesting of Jewish children", and if they remove offending rabbis from their pulpits? Or is it only goyim and animals that they are worried about?

Posted by: Doresh el HaMeisim | May 05, 2011 at 02:28 PM

I am sure you say the same thing to the frum hachguchus who take a way a haschuchu because their was mixed dancing at the hall

[seymour]

Seymour,
As the self proclaimed vanguard for all mitzvos bein adam l'chaveiro, are you also as scrupulous in mitzvos bein adam l'makom?

Posted by: corn popper | May 05, 2011 at 02:53 PM

why would I I said I think it is all made up.

however, I am hedging myself if there is a god and if he is the Jewish God and wanted me to keep the Torah.

How, the gemurha say god can forgive sins against him but god cannot forgive sins against a fellow man (human)

So maybe I can talk my way out of punishment and convince god to forgive me.

However, the frum scammers. molesters, people who lie to get section 8 and insurance claims and so on and up shits creek

[ah-pee-chorus]

the whole bizarre gemarra on "lo tevashel" is based on ignorance. there was a pagan fertility ritual to use a calf and its mothers milk and the author of the torah was looking to distance jews from this practice. it had nothing to do with any prohibition on eating a calf and its mothers milk and ergo the further decision that the repetitions meant you couldnt cook, eat or derive benefit from it, are also nonsense.
and for the rebbeim to then extend the lunacy futher to ANY meat and ANY milk, and then to include poultry, and waiting hours between consumption is further testament to 'garbage in, garbage out' principle.

[corn popper]

Rabbi Allen will officiate at the wedding of two Jewish adults who are either the children of Jewish mothers, or who have been converted to Judaism according to the process designated by Jewish Law. While recognizing that marriages between two same-sex individuals do not yet enjoy civil recognition in Minnesota, Rabbi Allen will officiate at their religious ceremony.

From the Beth Jacob website
http://lifecycle.beth-jacob.org/wedding/marriage-and-the-standards/

[seymour]

the whole bizarre gemarra on "lo tevashel" is based on ignorance. there was a pagan fertility ritual to use a calf and its mothers milk and the author of the torah was looking to distance jews from this practice. it had nothing to do with any prohibition on eating a calf and its mothers milk and ergo the further decision that the repetitions meant you couldnt cook, eat or derive benefit from it, are also nonsense.
and for the rebbeim to then extend the lunacy futher to ANY meat and ANY milk, and then to include poultry, and waiting hours between consumption is further testament to 'garbage in, garbage out' principle.

Posted by: ah-pee-chorus | May 05, 2011 at 03:04 PM

true and the reason it was mentioned 3 times because the author was warn8ng them forcefully. Just like the, do not walk blinks before the real stop and not when the light turns green

ah-pee-chorus

did you go to yeshiva?

[corn popper]

Seymour,
Do you wear Tefilin? What does it look like? Have you seen that in the Torah?

Are you circumcised? Where? Have you seen that in the Torah?

Posted by: corn popper | May 05, 2011 at 02:47 PM

thank you you proved my point it is all made up by men, even if one believes that god wrote the torah

Posted by: seymour | May 05, 2011 at 02:51 PM

Seymour,
Simply answer the question. A simple yes or no will suffice.
Do you wear Tefilin?
Do you have a Mezuzah on your door?
Did you have a Bris Milah?
Would you do the same for your sons?

Your answers will be enlightening. You are either a hypocrite, heretic or both.

[ah-pee-chorus]

ah-pee-chorus

did you go to yeshiva?

yes...through high school in the states, then 2 years in israel, and a few years after while in college. and then the truth started to dawn on me.

[seymour]

I don't

however when i post certain thing or say certain things about the torah I am trying to point out that according to halacha that should not be permitted and that the ultra Orthodox are putting to much effort on rituals and other stuff and very little for bein adom lachvra. Or do not follow that part of the torah. PS when I was very frum in yeshiva i asked the same things

I am talking from their own point and basing it on the torah tanach rambam.

Remember reib meir in the talmuld used to study the Torah with an apechorrress

[seymour]

ah-pee-chorus

did you go to yeshiva?

yes...through high school in the states, then 2 years in israel, and a few years after while in college. and then the truth started to dawn on me.

Posted by: ah-pee-chorus | May 05, 2011 at 03:21 PM

same here we are brothers I guess.

Black hat and beis medresh

[corn popper]

Seymour,
Rabbi Meir knew how to discard the trash... unlike you who gobble it up. Glad you found a good trash can to feed from.

[Yaakov]

The Rabonim also told us to put up a fake act for the Goyim, so they think that we care for their safety and the safety of their children.

The rabonim told us to call this mockery show, Making a KIDDUSH HASHEM.

[corn popper]

Seymour,
Thanks for confirming that your both the heretic and hypocrite that I thought you are.
You're hedging your bets that maybe there is a G-d and He wrote the Torah - yet, you don't observe even the bein adam l'makoms...
Yet, YOU will be the prosecuting angel against all those who don't observe bein adam l'chaveiro (yes you're very concerned that they need mechila).
Little tiny confused person you are.

[ah-pee-chorus]

my brutha from another mutha.

[corn popper]

Yaakov,
Explain "fake".
Do you mean when volunteer Hatzolah members leave their families in middle of a Shabbos Seudah and run to save the lives of non-Jews?

[ah-pee-chorus]

: corn popper -
thanks for confirming that since you have no ability to debate the points, you instead resort to ad-hominem attacks of seymour....as if that is the issue.

[corn popper]

APC,
Reread my points and attempt to decipher Seymour's response.
BTW, every comment from Seymour is a vicious ad-hominem attack on observant Jews. A little taste of his own medicine.
As an aside, there's enough garbage being perpetrated by people of all stripes, we should all learn from their bad examples how not to behave. But to take vicious swipes at every opportunity to smear entire segments of Klal Yisrael is unconscionable.

[masortiman]

how bizarre that the commentators on this thread are either attacking Cons J, or responding by attacking rabbinic halacha which IS the basis of Cons J.

Neither side sees the chazal that I see - which DID create new things, not always easily or clearly derived from the writtten torah, in ORDER to create a holier MORE HUMANE, MORE ETHICAL way of life. A tradition that is here being maintained. Including by new (I am not learned enough to be sure) terms that incorporate many existing concepts, hilkot, and ethical imperatives.

[corn popper]

Bottom line is either you believe in the Oral Tradition or you don't. If you don't, then you can't even begin to read the Torah scroll because the vowels WHICH ARE NOT WRITTEN IN THE SCROLL are from the Oral Tradition.

[A E ANDERSON]

The problem with this Hekhsher Zedek mishugaas is that it opens the door, indeed to "corrupt" halakha with any and every liberal, airy-fairy, touchy-feely, bleeding heart, knee-jerk emotion or issue du jour that happens to motivate the "rabbi ha-machshir" and his merry band of activists depending on what side they get out of bed in the morning!

Let these guys loose, and the Shulhan 'Arukh will come to look like an rainbow NGO directory of causes and issues. Is your BLT GLBT friendly? Does your Yanover etrog exploit the Italian lumpenproletariat? Are tsimmes from interstate-sourced carrots permitted to locovores?

Most of the issues that they call for to be incorporated into the hechsher process are already matters of law and workers rights guaranteed by statute, government regulation, or negotiated union contract, to one degree or another, if not halakha itself. And where they're not, that's often because that state's voters consciously elected to have their jurisdiction remain a "right-to-work" state where unions cannot force themselves on unwilling workers and employers by exploiting loopholes in devilishly complicated organising laws.

Indeed, one gets the sense that this newfangled Hecksher Zedek thing will become a rallying point for the Jewish Labor Committee and its left wing acolytes at JTS, HUC and RRC-JIR.

[Don't take me as anti-labour: I think the US should look to Australia for a model of a fair, workable industrial policy to replace its own sclerotic policy, or lack thereof. Minimum wages are at a fraction of where they need to be, some protectionism is a must with regard to trade, and the entire worker-employer social contract needs to be renegotiated.]

It amuses that on one side of pond, Orthodox rabbis in Israel are castigated for extending the subject matter of their hecksherim beyond kashrut (mixed seating, political affiliations, etc.), whilst on the other, it is liberal rabbis themselves who seek to use haskeherim for matters beyond traditional kashrut.

[masortiman]

"Under the concept of bal tashchit (Thou shalt not destroy) the purposeless destruction of anything at all is taken to be forbidden, so that our text becomes the most comprehensive warning to human beings not to misuse the position that God has given them as masters of the world and its matter by capricious, passionate, or merely thoughtless wasteful destruction of anything on earth. Only for wise use has God laid the world at our feet when He said to man, “Subdue the earth and have dominion over it.” [Rabbi Samson Raphael Hirsch]

[ah-pee-chorus]

corn popper -
the point in many cases is not that frum jews behave badly. it is that in many instances their fellow frummies refuse to believe it and refuse to take any steps towards correcting the thinking that leads to it. if a few hassidim in upstate NY steal from taxpayers by abusing housing and welfare programs, that wouldnt be news. but when the majority of the community is aware of it, including the leaders, no doubt, and yet nobody speaks out and forces it to end, then there is a much bigger problem. the haredi system CAUSES theft and promotes sex-abuse. not on purpose, but as a result of their warped, immoral views towards the world.
nobody would have cared too much (aside from the victims) if there were a couple of priests who molested and abused a few kids unbeknownst to the church highers-up. what made it an embarrassing and repugnant commentary on the church was their having promoted it by turning a blind eye and permitting known pedophiles to continue as priests in new parishes.

[corn popper]

how bizarre that the commentators on this thread are either attacking Cons J, or responding by attacking rabbinic halacha which IS the basis of Cons J.

Posted by: masortiman | May 05, 2011 at 03:52 PM

Rabbinic halacha IS the basis of Cons J? what are you smoking? Do you mean the part about that G-d DIDN'T write the Torah? That it's okay to drive on Shabbos? That gay marriage is permitted, and Cons clergy will officiate?

[masortiman]

"The problem with this Hekhsher Zedek mishugaas is that it opens the door, indeed to "corrupt" halakha with any and every liberal, airy-fairy, touchy-feely, bleeding heart, knee-jerk emotion or issue du jour that happens to motivate the "rabbi ha-machshir" and his merry band of activists depending on what side they get out of bed in the morning!"

evidently you are not aware of the degree of effort, time, cost that has gone into this project. It is still not clear how accepted it will be in the jewish world (though I am optimistic) if they do this for issues that are not as compelling to large numbers of C and MO jews, those efforts will simply be ignored.

"Most of the issues that they call for to be incorporated into the hechsher process are already matters of law and workers rights guaranteed by statute, government regulation,"

But the govt often just issues a citation, and the violator pays the fine and racks up more citations. That may work for the govt (whose laws are passed in the messy process of legislation) but for MANY Jewish folks, that isnt good enough. And of course some issues are not covered by govt regulation. as for union contracts, unions represent a small and shrinking part of the work force in the USA today.

[corn popper]

APC,
I for one am VERY embarrassed every time a frum Jew or ANY Jew misbehaves. In an effort to better the world, I try to improve MY behavior. I hope to be a role model of good behavior.
Let's not paint the entire frum world as being terrible people. Most are trying to constantly improve themselves, and are pained by bad behavior.

[masortiman]

"Orthodox rabbis in Israel are castigated for extending the subject matter of their hecksherim beyond kashrut (mixed seating, political affiliations, etc.), whilst on the other, it is liberal rabbis themselves who seek to use haskeherim for matters beyond traditional kashrut."

but this is a seperate hecksher. You will still be able to get your food certified as kosher without getting the magen tzedek. This certifies that in ADDITION it also meets certain labor, animal welfare etc standards. I am sure no one would object if the O rabbinate in Israel let some companies get a hecksher for kosher food, and let others get an ADDITIONAL hecksher for no mixed seating, say. Its when they refused to certify the KASHRUT of the food, because of some OTHER factor, that it gets some folks dander up.

[masortiman]

Rabbinic halacha IS the basis of Cons J? what are you smoking?

Do you mean the part about that G-d DIDN'T write the Torah?

1. The manner in which we interpretate G-d authorship of the torah is a philosophical matter, not a question of Halacha.

2. That it's okay to drive on Shabbos?

That was a minority opinion of the law committee, and an emergency decree at that. I would prefer that it be revoked, but CJLS is reluctant to rebuke the rabbis of that generation.

3.That gay marriage is permitted, and Cons clergy will officiate?

Actually gay commitment ceremonies, not kiddushin (unless there has been a new decision by CJLS that somehow I havent heard about. And yes, that was very serious argued on halachic grounds. I suggest you read the tshuvot by R Roth (who opposed gay ceremonies) and by R Dorff (who supported them) for an insight into how Conservatives approach Halacha. BTW, the R Roth opionion was ALSO approved by CJLS - thus a local rabbi who refuses to perform a gay commitment ceremony also has a CJ opinion to rely on.

[Deremes]

masortiman: What is the Conservative rabbis view on homosexuals according to the halakah?

[masortiman]

http://www.rabbinicalassembly.org/jewish-law/cjls/even-haezer

see in particular

Joel Roth, "Homosexuality Revisited" EH 24.2006a

Elliot Dorff, Daniel Nevins and Avram Reisner, "Homosexuality, Human Dignity and Halakhah" EH 24.2006b

for the two shuvot that were passed by CJLS

[ah-pee-chorus]

corn popper -

do you demand an end to the concept of kollel which has no basis in halach or bettering the world? do you demand that all yeshivas strictly adhere to their local states requirements? do you withhold support since most haredi yeshivas lie about the extent of secular education they provide? do you demand that people like that idiot shafran who defended madoff (while writing that in many ways madoff is better than capt. sullenberger) have no place being employed by any reputable organization? do you give respect to 'gedolim' who foster sexual abusers while fighting the enactment of better laws to protect them?

[seymour]

Seymour,
Thanks for confirming that your both the heretic and hypocrite that I thought you are.
You're hedging your bets that maybe there is a G-d and He wrote the Torah - yet, you don't observe even the bein adam l'makoms...
Yet, YOU will be the prosecuting angel against all those who don't observe bein adam l'chaveiro (yes you're very concerned that they need mechila).
Little tiny confused person you are.

Posted by: corn popper | May 05, 2011 at 03:34 PM

interesting that comment was for you the frum not me. I say this in a joking manner when my frum friends try to give me mussar I tell them they should spent there time in trying to give musser to the frum who steal etc.

[seymour]

corn popper

when is the last time a rov came up with a chrumra regarding ethics and or financial matters. Like do not lie to get welfare, or lie to get money for a yeshiva. I haven't did you and can you give me an example?

However for other nonsense they come up with chumras weekly.

that is the issue and that is why people make fun of the ultra Orthodox.

and of course when a person commits financial fruad and other such crimes and is sitting in prison he is still considered shomer torah and mizhvas,. But if a person is a little lenient with some of the other stuff like not wearing a sheitel that person is not shommer totah and mitvas

[seymour]

APC,
Reread my points and attempt to decipher Seymour's response.
BTW, every comment from Seymour is a vicious ad-hominem attack on observant Jews. A little taste of his own medicine.
As an aside, there's enough garbage being perpetrated by people of all stripes, we should all learn from their bad examples how not to behave. But to take vicious swipes at every opportunity to smear entire segments of Klal Yisrael is unconscionable.

Posted by: corn popper | May 05, 2011 at 03:45 PM

not true I make fun of the community who does not take financial scams as a serious issue to be dealt with.
or protects the perpetrator of crimes and vilifies the victims.

People who are religious claim they are holier than thou well how about doing that in all matters not just bein adom lamokom.

yes some things are a little far fetched like not eating milk and meat because it say do not cook a calf with it mothers milk.

If god meant that all he had to do was say it

[WoolSilkCotton]

++Rabbinic halacha IS the basis of Cons J? what are you smoking? Do you mean the part about that G-d DIDN'T write the Torah? That it's okay to drive on Shabbos? That gay marriage is permitted, and Cons clergy will officiate?

Posted by: corn popper | May 05, 2011 at 03:57 PM
++

According to the Frumma Torah and Frumma Halacha, the Commandments include:

Thou Shalt Lie
Thou Shalt Steal
Thou Shalt Cheat
Thou Shalt sexually molest children and grope strange women

As long as you don't drive on Shabbos, and continue to bash gays, it is ok to lie, cheat, steal, molest, and grope.

And make sure to scrub those strawberries with a rabbinically approved brush.

[tooclose2detroit]

still not sure how its ethical to slit another creatures throat and eat it-i guess its a matter of degrees-kind of like getting stabbed, or getting shot, I guess.

[Aleksandr Sigalov]

Magen Tzedek is based on our assertion that Biblical and Rabbinic law mandate fair treatment of workers (לא תלין), humane treatment of animals ((צער בעלי חיים, and care of the earth (בל תשחית and שמירת הארץ) which can be translated into measurable standards applicable to commercial food production.

IMHO, this is the key phrase here.

How stupid I was to think that there could be only ONE law?!! How silly of me!

Besides, most of that "kosher" stuff has a disgusting taste anyways....

I'll add this label to my list of labels of the products that I should not buy!

[corn popper]

corn popper

when is the last time a rov came up with a chrumra regarding ethics and or financial matters. Like do not lie to get welfare, or lie to get money for a yeshiva. I haven't did you and can you give me an example?

Posted by: seymour | May 05, 2011 at 04:32 PM

Actually, I can give you a stellar example. Reb Meir Stern Shlita the Rosh Yeshiva in Passaic - does not allow any yungerman in his yeshiva or Kollel to receive ANY government programs - precisely to avoid any form of dishonesty.

[corn popper]

still not sure how its ethical to slit another creatures throat and eat it-i guess its a matter of degrees-kind of like getting stabbed, or getting shot, I guess.

Posted by: tooclose2detroit | May 05, 2011 at 05:46 PM

Who decides what's ethical?
For me, if G-d says it's ok, then it's ethical to me. As Shlomo Carlebach of blessed memory used to sing, "If it's good enough for Moses, it's good enough for me"

[seymour]

corn popper

when is the last time a rov came up with a chrumra regarding ethics and or financial matters. Like do not lie to get welfare, or lie to get money for a yeshiva. I haven't did you and can you give me an example?

Posted by: seymour | May 05, 2011 at 04:32 PM

Actually, I can give you a stellar example. Reb Meir Stern Shlita the Rosh Yeshiva in Passaic - does not allow any yungerman in his yeshiva or Kollel to receive ANY government programs - precisely to avoid any form of dishonesty.

Posted by: corn popper | May 05, 2011 at 06:47 PM

That is a great example, i will remember that. I can even call him Reb Meir Stern Shlita

unfortunately that is not the norm

[corn popper]

If god meant that all he had to do was say it

Posted by: seymour | May 05, 2011 at 04:56 PM

You mean like the location of your circumcision? Damn, the tip of my ear would've been a whole lot less painful!

[Yechiel]

Seymour and APC
Cheder, Yeshiva, Israel... and then something moved in the head.
Or perhaps you never believed in any of it but couldn't figure out how to survive otherwise. Either way s'iz a biterreh rachmones...

[seymour]

Who decides what's ethical?
For me, if G-d says it's ok, then it's ethical to me. As Shlomo Carlebach of blessed memory used to sing, "If it's good enough for Moses, it's good enough for me"

Posted by: corn popper | May 05, 2011 at 06:50 PM

that is the fundamental difference between many of the commentators on this blog and you or people who say that The torah and the oral law is god given

to you and others if god wrote it and gave the oral law as we see it now there cannot be any questioning certain things in the Torah or laws since if God wrote that is it end of story.

However, others who either believe that it was god inspired but mans words things can be questioned
since as time goes on ethics, animal welfare,slavery and other stuff can change with time the people who wrote the torah did their best with the information they had at that time and the moral codes of that time.

we have an advantage of learning from past generation and their mistakes

[corn popper]

corn popper -

do you demand an end to the concept of kollel which has no basis in halach or bettering the world?

Posted by: ah-pee-chorus | May 05, 2011 at 04:23 PM

Answer. While there is certainly no halachik requirement to study in Kollel, it certainly does not violate any halacha to do so. The Kollel concept as defined by Rabbis Yisroel Salanter and Yitzchok Elchanan Spector OBM was to give aspiring future Torah leaders the financial wherewithal to do so. Having knowledgeable Torah leaders such as Rabbis Yaakov Kamenetsky, Yaakov Yitzchok Ruderman etc (the products of those early Kollelim)is certainly for the betterment of Klal Yisroel.

[corn popper]

corn popper

when is the last time a rov came up with a chrumra regarding ethics and or financial matters. Like do not lie to get welfare, or lie to get money for a yeshiva. I haven't did you and can you give me an example?

Posted by: seymour | May 05, 2011 at 04:32 PM

Actually, I can give you a stellar example. Reb Meir Stern Shlita the Rosh Yeshiva in Passaic - does not allow any yungerman in his yeshiva or Kollel to receive ANY government programs - precisely to avoid any form of dishonesty.

Posted by: corn popper | May 05, 2011 at 06:47 PM

That is a great example, i will remember that. I can even call him Reb Meir Stern Shlita

unfortunately that is not the norm

Posted by: seymour | May 05, 2011 at 06:52 PM

Rabbi Abba Gorelik the Rosh Yeshiva of South Fallsburg yeshiva is another example. His yeshiva was audited many times by the IRS only to be praised for his honesty!

[seymour]

Seymour and APC
Cheder, Yeshiva, Israel... and then something moved in the head.
Or perhaps you never believed in any of it but couldn't figure out how to survive otherwise. Either way s'iz a biterreh rachmones...

Posted by: Yechiel | May 05, 2011 at 07:01 PM

I have raccmonos on you and others that your whole life you are following a fairy tail a book that people wrote thousands of years ago and maybe they themselves never took it as seriously as you do.

harry Potter religion anybody?

[corn popper]

corn popper -

do you demand that all yeshivas strictly adhere to their local states requirements?

Answer. Yes

do you withhold support since most haredi yeshivas lie about the extent of secular education they provide?

Answer. The yeshiva that I attended provided an excellent secular education.

do you demand that people like that idiot shafran who defended madoff (while writing that in many ways madoff is better than capt. sullenberger) have no place being employed by any reputable organization?

Answer. I wrote to the Agudah about that.

do you give respect to 'gedolim' who foster sexual abusers while fighting the enactment of better laws to protect them?

Answer. No respect for anyone who fosters sexual abusers.

Posted by: ah-pee-chorus | May 05, 2011 at 04:23 PM

[corn popper]

I have raccmonos on you and others that your whole life you are following a fairy tail a book that people wrote thousands of years ago and maybe they themselves never took it as seriously as you do.

harry Potter religion anybody?

Posted by: seymour | May 05, 2011 at 07:05 PM

seymour,
I actually have rachmonus on you. If I'm wrong - then I missed out on a couple of steaks; if you're wrong - you'll miss out on eternity.

[corn popper]

Seymour, APC, etc,
Maybe you ought to find a good mentor and start all over again. Yes, there are bad frum apples, but don't throw away YOUR heritage from Hashem with the bathwater.

[corn popper]

Back to the topic at hand, if you guys want to be naive that's fine, but let me clue you in on what's really happening.
The Conservative movement is really peeved that the Orthodox have a monopoly on Kashrus. The Rubashkin scandal was the perfect subterfuge to gain entry to the market under the cover of it's only about ethics. The reality is, that they hope that this will be their toe in the Kashrus door and to eventually make tremendous inroads into Kashrus itself.

[seymour]

Seymour, APC, etc,
Maybe you ought to find a good mentor and start all over again. Yes, there are bad frum apples, but don't throw away YOUR heritage from Hashem with the bathwater.

Posted by: corn popper | May 05, 2011 at 07:13 PM
the heritage is based on a book that people wrote, and I feel the heritage is false, and based on falsehoods and lies

[corn popper]

Seymour,
I wish you all the best.

[Simon Rose]

Ah pee chorus is not wrong about the Kid in it's mother milk concept. It's far removed from the plain meaning of the verse and no evidence exists that can show this was ever the custom among the Israelites before the Rabbinic sect established it.

The Rabbis often went to extreme levels completely out of context when using their exegesis principles. After they developed their principles some pushed the limits with over reaching claims and interpretations, then claiming they have the right etc... Very bizarre and extreme behavior that in reality didn't help the Jews throught history as most Jews never believed all thier bizarre ideas.

If one studies the exegetical methods between R. Akiva and Yishmael you will see different styles. Akiva often goes very far from the plain meaning of the text (extreme) and Yishmael believed that the principles were only meant to explain and support the plain meaning of the text (a more reasonable method) Needless to say Akiva's style was more popular among the Rabbinic sect.

Studying the Talmudic text itself one can see how really bad the logic and assumptive nature of their concepts really were with no basis in reality to assume these interpretations are correct and are Torah law.

Please excuse any type Os.

[seymour]

Studying the Talmudic text itself one can see how really bad the logic and assumptive nature of their concepts really were with no basis in reality to assume these interpretations are correct and are Torah law.

Please excuse any type Os.

Posted by: Simon Rose | May 05, 2011 at 08:54 PM

look at the logic that they use to explain teffilin even more far fetched then the milk thing

[Simon Rose]

The Orthodox feel they set the bar on Kashrut and they are threatened by legit competition that shows their short comings and often poor ethics.

The Orthodox again are over the top and often dishonest craving power, money and control over representing ethics and righteousness.

The Orthodox need to work on their own midos and police their own house.

[ah-pee-chorus]

corn popper - i have no need for a mentor. furthermore, my realization that the torah is just another man-written book was not based on nor influenced by the actions of those that believe otherwise. every single religious jew could be the greatest, most honest, ethical and moral person and that would still have no bearing on whether or not what they believe in is true. those are two separate points.

[ah-pee-chorus]

If I'm wrong - then I missed out on a couple of steaks; if you're wrong - you'll miss out on eternity.

Posted by: corn popper

if there is a god, it would make sense that he would respect honesty and logic. therefore, he would grant olam haba to those that admitted theres no reason to suppose he wrote the torah. so it is YOU who will have missed out not only on a couple of steaks but eternal life as well.
i have rachmanus...

or if you prefer another answer....

based on that i assume you pray to mecca 5 times daily.and go to confessions and say hail mary on sundays. you wouldnt want to take a chance on missing eternity would you?

[Yechiel]

APC

Your arguments show your limitations as a human being. It's OK; you're only human...
I do agree on the ethics, honesty and integrity issues.

I do hope you find some happiness in your life. You'll definitely agree that there's more than just the frummeh on this continent. Perhaps if you rotate a few degrees and adjust your focal point you might just see something that agrees with you; focus on that. Don't stay focused on the frummeh and let it eat away at you. You'll give yourself a heart attack...

[WoolSilkCotton]

There are billions of people who have passed through this world. Only a tiny tiny percentage have been religious Jews.

So does the all-powerful frumma God only grant eternity to the frumma, and all the other billions of people are dismissed?

Pretty narcissistic way of looking at yourself, Corn Popper.

Other religions are quite certain that the Jews are the ones going to hell. Corn Popper, perhaps you could engage some clergy of other religions, and you can all decide who's going to hell and who's not.

Yechiel, it has been my experience over many years that the most religious Jews I've met are overwrought, neurotic, always angry, paranoid, a bit sleazy, and generally unkind.
Perhaps you should speak to some frumma about them finding happiness in their lives.
Obviously, ultra-orthodox Judaism is not the pathway to finding happiness.

[seymour]

If I'm wrong - then I missed out on a couple of steaks; if you're wrong - you'll miss out on eternity.

Posted by: corn popper

if there is a god, it would make sense that he would respect honesty and logic. therefore, he would grant olam haba to those that admitted theres no reason to suppose he wrote the torah. so it is YOU who will have missed out not only on a couple of steaks but eternal life as well.
i have rachmanus...

or if you prefer another answer....

based on that i assume you pray to mecca 5 times daily.and go to confessions and say hail mary on sundays. you wouldnt want to take a chance on missing eternity would you?

Posted by: ah-pee-chorus | May 05, 2011 at 10:32 PM

depends

what happens if the Muslims are right.

[Simon]

Life after death is subjective and not original Jewish belief. There is nothing clear at all about it in the Torah or Tanach per se.

The idea of L.A.D. was developed over hundreds of years. T.B. Sanhedrin shows many very weak examples of rabbinic interpretation that is so far reaching and not believable. They constantly try to put square pegs in round holes and it just doesn't work very well with half intelligent people. Of course stary eyed blind followers who want to believe will buy in as the Orthodox culture shows with out much critical thought.

However the crux of the matter is many cultures and peoples want to know why bad things happen to good people and if justice is not seen in this life the only possible explanation is God will make everything right in the next life.

After all if God is all good then he must reward people at some point or why not be a no good SOB for the rest of your life.

BTW it is accurate that every culture thinks they're right and the other guy is wrong. Each group is 100% sure that they believe is the correct way and the other people are going to hell or somewhere else very unpleasant. It's too narcissistic to belief only Jews are right or only Christians are right. It maybe God gave different systems to different people and everyone’s right.

[WoolSilkCotton]

Simon, good posting.

[Yaakov]

To Simon

You should be writing on one of the Yiddishe magazines, Then I would buy them.

[Simon]

Thanks Guys.

I call what I practice "Common Sense Judaism" and like the Rambam, Spinoza and others we have to use the intellect God gave us. That's what it means to be "Created in the image of God" and "Know God in all your ways."

No branch of Judaism is all correct or all wrong. Everything any branch claims has to be examined on it's merits. If it passes great if not forget it.

The Orthodox world had been fooling itself for 2k and continue to do so. That is why only 10% or so of Kal Israel follows that sect. There are some good people that know better but must reamin silent by the circles they choose to associate with. Another words they choose community over truth.

If you study the Rambam deeply it will become clear he knew the truth but for the sake of the greater community he only hinted to it and ultimately sold out but claiming to think X (inside)but never the less follow Rabbinic law regardles which is a sell out of the intellect.

The Rambam had to balance Jewish life and community with ultimate knowledge and reason that often didn't mix.

That is the choice most of us have to make when inside Orthodox communities.

sorry for any type O's

[Yechiel]

WSC
I am as frum as frum can be (besides the little aveira of surfing the net... shhhh, don't tell) and I am everything but bitter and miserable.
I do know some people who found happiness in Yiddishkeit. You are not one of them; I know. Your constant whining about the "frummas" (I know you get a kick out of that silly spelling) proves that you are an unhappy chap. So I wished your friends happiness in the hope that their 'ethics' will lead them to share it with you...

Enjoy your weekend (aka good Shabbat)

[ah-pee-chorus]

APC

Your arguments show your limitations as a human being. It's OK; you're only human...
I do agree on the ethics, honesty and integrity issues.
Posted by: Yechiel

so you say you agree with me and yet since you cant respond with logic you resort to personal attacks. why dont you ask someone to explain my posts to you so that you can try to debate the issues.
you also are hung up on others happiness. do you think that only frum people are happy? your advice to me is bizarre considering you dont know the first thing about me. its possible you are projecting your own unhappiness.
and lastly, i dont 'stay focused solely on the frummeh' but it would be odd if instead of commenting on the articles relating to the ortho world as posted on a site devoted to the ortho world,i instead gave my predictions for the NBA playoffs or discussed my taste in music. dont you think?

[WoolSilkCotton]

Yechiel, the happiness of "people who found happiness in Yiddishkeit" is no different than people who found happiness from joining a cult. Just follow the cult rules, and your instant friends will give you the sense of happiness.

And who needs that stuff you mock, known as 'ethics'? Just sign up for welfare, cheat some non-Jew who comes into your store, and get ready for Shabbos.

[Yechiel]

WSC
What I am trying to convey to you is that since you are confined to the limitations of your human mind , I say that I cannot hold it against you. I however, believe that there is more than my mind can grasp. There are a whole slew of sciences and simpler matters that I have yet to understand. The more I study (worldly matter included) and the more knowledge I acquire, only strengthens that principle.
I have no hardship living with the premise that the human mind has its limitations. Therefore, I can believe in the existence of a being beyond any scientific explanations.
On your other point: I need no friends to bring me happiness. I am happy with who I am and the mark I leave on the world.
I stated many a time that I believe in and promolgate 'menshlichkeit'. Let it be known that when I see what you see, it disturbs me, but I can go on in life and not spend most of my day stewing over it and looking for 'more'. That is the essence of a happy person.
You are seemingly unhappy, since you are preoccupied with the wrongdoings of others. You scour for shortcomings in a given community dedicated to a lifestyle incomrehensible to you, perhaps just to validate your way of life filled with void...
You also have difficulties making sense of G-d's ways, so you deny his existence.
Why can't you simply be satisfifed with who you are and pursue activities that will boost your ego as opposed to finding happiness in others' 'problems'?
That is the message I am attempting to relay with my rhetoric and 'trolling'.

[Zev]

I imagine that שמירת הארץ is rooted in the phrase לעבדה ולשמרה.