« Following Complaints Of Sexism, Rabbi Ovadia Yosef Rules Women Can Speak On Haredi Radio Station | Main | Rabbi Ovadia Yosef Said To "Favor" Appointment Of Women »

May 18, 2011

Women To The Rear! It's Okay To Harass, Insult And Embarrass Women On Gender Segregated Buses, Head Haredi Rabbi Says

Rabbi Yosef Shalom Elyashiv 2 If women won't move to the back of the bus, Rabbi Yosef Shalom Elyashiv says, scream at them, insult them, embarrass them and harass them.

 

Rafi G picked up a story from the Israeli ultra-Orthodox news website Kikar HaShabbat that is frightening, I think, because it shows how far the haredi version of Judaism has fallen, and how low many of its leaders really are.

A young married haredi man was on a mehadrin bus (i.e., a gender-segregated bus operated by a public bus company – Egged, for example).

A woman got on and, instead fo going to the back of the bus to the women's section, sat in front with the men.

By law, gender segregation on mehadrin buses is voluntary, meaning that a woman can be reminded that the bus is a mehadrin bus, but she cannot be compelled to uphold the gender segregation.

This young haredi man approached the woman and asked her to go to the back of the bus.

When she refused to do so, the young haredi man screamed at her and berated her, demanding that she move. But she still refused.

A few days later, the young haredi man began to have questions about his behavior, and he went to Rabbi Yosef Shalom Elyashiv, the leading haredi rabbi in the world, to ask Rabbi Elyashiv if his behavior on the bus was correct.

What did Rabbi Elyashiv answer?

Accoding to Rafi's paraphrase [and with some clarifications from me included in square brackets like the ones that enclose this], this is what the leader of all Ashkenazi haredim in the world said:

[The young haredi man] has no reason to apologize, as she was wrong and she should have moved to the back and not disrupted the mehadrin arrangement.

The avreich [young haredi man] persisted and suggested that perhaps she was handicapped and was unable to move to the back despite being screamed at, and [therefore] maybe he does need to apologize?

Rav Elyashiv, again supposedly, responded that he has no need to apologize as he acted properly.

The Proof
Rav Elyashiv proved his words quoting from the story in the gemara [Babylonian Talmud] of the amora [a sage of the later generations codified in the Talmud] (article says it was Shmuel but I don't think so) who encountered a woman in the street who was dressed immodestly and he ripped it [her clothes; the immodest garment] off her. He is praised even though in the end it was discovered the woman was not even Jewish. Rav Elyashiv said from that we learn that one can shame someone who goes against "Dat Yehudit" [the Jewish religion as understood by haredim] in the matters of tzniyus [modesty].

I have many times previously written that Rabbi Elyashiv is an evil man.

If you did not believe me before, now you have absolute proof.

Here are screenshots of the Kikar HaShabbat article, for posterity's sake:

Screen shot 2011-05-18 at 8.31.38 AM
Screen shot 2011-05-18 at 8.32.28 AM

[Hat Tip: Undercover Kofer]

Comments

Feed You can follow this conversation by subscribing to the comment feed for this post.

Segregation is voluntary. This young man is an immature thug.

The Tailbaner Rov. Shmarya do you have any contacts/sources who know how "aware" Elyashiv has been the past 10 years? Hes been a walking corpse to me for at least that ling.

Why do you take the report on Kikar Shabbat as gospel?

Segregation is voluntary. This young man is an immature thug.

Posted by: Alter Kocker | May 18, 2011 at 08:50 AM

do not blame the young man he had regrets and went to his mentor his mentor is the crazy one

the herdie rebbies have lost all credibility if this story is true.

the Talmud story he ripped of her cloth because she was dressed immodestly.

Maybe the hedeim are right about the Photoshopping incident it seems even their holy men cannot control themselves when they see a woman.

der alte kaker is still gining orders he is oiver butel senile, why care what he says

der alte kaker is still gining orders he is oiver butel senile, why care what he says

Posted by: jancsipista | May 18, 2011 at 09:00 AM

people listen to him and think what he says is like god said it, they do not question their leaders since he has dass torah

I think we've reached a stage where an outrageous story like this hardly seems shocking at all anymore. The haredi have "normalized" misogyny in their interpretation of Judaism. If a series of hypothetical social and/or religious situations are presented that feature men and women, the haredi response is easily predictable: Women are less than men.

Haredi leaders view women positively as breeders; maids; cooks; caregivers for children and the elderly; and as a support staff for their husbands.

Haredi leaders view women negatively as seductive whores; liars; cheats; stupid; and lazy.

This isn't Judaism. This is fucked up.

This is the Gemarra referred to:-

'Said R. Papa to Abaye: How is it that for the former generations miracles were performed and for us miracles are not performed? It cannot be because of their [superiority in] study, because in the years of Rab Judah the whole of their studies was confined to Nezikin, and we study all six Orders, ... And yet when Rab Judah drew off one shoe, rain used to come, whereas we torment ourselves and cry loudly, and no notice is taken of us! He replied: The former generations used to be ready to sacrifice their lives for the sanctity of [God's] name; we do not sacrifice our lives for the sanctity of [God's] name. There was the case of R. Adda b. Ahaba who saw a heathen woman wearing a red head-dress in the street, and thinking that she was an Israelite woman, he rose and tore it from her. It turned out that she was a heathen woman, and they fined him four hundred zuz. He said to her: What is your name. She replied: Mathun. Mathun, he said to her: that makes four hundred zuz.

R. Giddal was accustomed to go and sit at the gates of the bathing-place. He used to say to the women [who came to bathe]: Bathe thus, or bathe thus. The Rabbis said to him: Is not the Master afraid lest his passion get the better of him? — He replied: They look to me like so many white geese. R. Johanan was accustomed to go and sit at the gates of the bathing place. He said: When the daughters of Israel come up from bathing they look at me and they have children as handsome as I am. Said the Rabbis to him: Is not the Master afraid of the evil eye? — He replied: I come from the seed of Joseph, over whom the evil eye has no power, as it is written, Joseph is a fruitful vine, a fruitful vine above the eye, and R. Abbahu said with regard to this, do not read 'ale 'ayin, but 'ole 'ayin'. R. Judah son of R. Hanina derived it from this text: And let them multiply like fishes [we-yidgu] in the midst of the earth. Just as the fishes [dagim] in the sea are covered by water and the evil eye has no power over them, so the evil eye has no power over the seed of Joseph. Or, if you prefer I can say: The evil eye has no power over the eye which refused to feed itself on what did not belong to it.'

And for children to be taught this nonsense, some argue for school vouchers.

Whenever I see the sweet, grandfatherly, warm, smiling, pleasant face of Ha-Rav Ha-Gaon Eliashev, my heart is filled with the varmkeit that pervades the essence of this holy creature. What a gentle, loving man....

I'm experiencing cognitive dissonance - I just can't believe this story.

And for children to be taught this nonsense, some argue for school vouchers.

Posted by: Barry | May 18, 2011 at 09:14 AM

hey guys want to hang out inside a woman mikvah and we will use the excuses of R. Johanan

“By law, gender segregation on mehadrin buses is voluntary”

What nonsense, this is like saying someone is a little pregnant. You either have segregated buses or not. Israelis, not just haredim are hotheads, if the meaning of something is not clear they will be yelling at each other each entrenched and inflexible in their opinions.

Haredim have a hardline religion, Rabbi Elyashiv’s stand is of no surprise. When you have a society of inflexible people, taking the safe middle road compromise just doesn’t work. So I again say, you either have segregated buses or not or just be prepared for more of this mishugahs.

Maybe Rabbi Elyashiv should have ruled that instead of causing such a chillul hashem they should next time leave the bus and wait for the next one, It would have made a much stronger statement.

ok, this is a little extreme. i thought its assur to embarrass people? but you have to take it with a grain of salt, he #1 knows more Torah than any of you ignoramus, and Ive been in Israel before, most of the signs are fake signs that they put his signature, most things said in his name where never really said.
so i really don't believe he said something like that.
and if he did, he is in his 90s people say things strange when they are that old.

Im so ashamed to be frum when I hear thess stories, what have we come to? We have gone so far from torah, I notice these rabbis use talmud to condone all their wrong, never torah, I guess cause in essence they esteem words of drunk rabbis over Hashem and his servant Moshe.

"and if he did, he is in his 90s people say things strange when they are that old."

And that's why people who say strange things and are that old shouldn't be in charge of people; institutions; public policy; laws; etc.

How much Torah Elyashiv knows doesn't excuse him from his bizarre statements.

"was dressed immodestly and he ripped it [her clothes; the immodest garment] off her." Not that I disagree with the premise that separate seating on buses is neither necessary or even desirable from a frum standpoint, but there is a difference between "ripping her clothes off" and removing someone's hat. (The original article does indeed say "beged" - garment - and not headdress, so the implication is theirs not yours)

http://www.kikarhashabat.co.il/הגריש-אלישיב-12.html

Also I think it is erroneous to state that Elyashiv is "the leader of all Ashkenazi haredim in the world". Just ask any Lubavitcher.

If the buses are public, the law should be followed. If the buses are private, the owners should be able to make whatever rules they please, whether said rules are right or wrong, if that is what the civil law in the State of Israel says. (Here in the U.S., it is forbidden by law, as far as I know, for even a private business owner to refuse to serve patrons or to make unreasonable restrictions on them.)

I'm an Alter Kocker, Rav Elyashiv is beyond that status. I'm pretty sure there is dust in his veins, and spiderwebs in his kopf.

more proof that only the good die young. Cant wait for that filthy hater to finally kick the bucket, i say its long overdue

I wonder if this is true since this is so against everything the torah stands for?

I am beginning to think that the herideim are the true appechoroseses

Manners anyone ? Civility is the root of the word civilization. Being polite to ladies is an old fashioned virtue that I would have thought this Rabbi and his charges would have subscribed to.

der alte kaker is still gining orders he is oiver butel senile, why care what he says

Posted by: jancsipista | May 18, 2011 at 09:00 AM

Shmarya

you can give jancsipista my email

I'm experiencing cognitive dissonance - I just can't believe this story.

Posted by: corn popper | May 18, 2011 at 09:24 AM

if true he has lost his mind and should not be relied upon for halacha anymore

Gevezener, a fine of 400 zuz (dinarii) is pretty substantial seeing that the average unskilled laborer earned 1 denarius a day. It equates to about $1,000 in todays silver value. It must have been far more serious then just knocking over a hat for the Romans to impose such a fine.

The fine leads me to suspect that the incident was incorrectly reported and that it was not a red hat or even a head covering that was removed but a red top garment. In fact the lady involved
was Jewish and here is a photograph of her taken just before R. Adda b. Ahaba came across her and pulled off her red top garment.

http://1.bp.blogspot.com/_cyH_7sPxVcQ/THEuu9d2HFI/AAAAAAAAE3o/vmdqHbnVtj0/s1600/Bar+Refaeli+in+Victoria%27s+Secret+swimsuit+2010+collection+%281%29.jpg

Barry

I do not understand if one cannot look at a photo of a woman how can he have looked at a real live woman to notice she was dressed immodestly

if all women have to ride in the back of the bus, then I am going to make sure that I also ride in the back of the bus-should make the trip a helluva lot more interesting!

I am ... speechless.

the cheridiem can easily solve this issue and show the world this is not about subordinating woman.

Just make the buses separate and have the men sit in the back.

Why not try that and see how it works


"I'm experiencing cognitive dissonance - I just can't believe this story."

^^this

it's a good thing i can laugh about this.
and here i thought a man like this would be filled with brilliant wisdom...and this is what he says!!!!!!!!!!!!! his poor daughters

I am surprised the frumma men don't require the women to remain outside the bus and cling to handrails.

http://www.profimedia.si/picture/overcrowded-bus-ayeyarwady-delta-near-yandoon-myanmar/0039882520/

I can't help but wonder if this was issued by his gabbaim or askanim without his input. For that matter, I wonder if he's even capable of processing such details anymore.

"the cheridiem can easily solve this issue and show the world this is not about subordinating woman.

Just make the buses separate and have the men sit in the back.

Why not try that and see how it works"

This will not happen because it is quite clear that part of the ultra orthodox doctrine of religion is making women second class citizens. Thus having them sit in the back serves two purposes, segregation and putting down women.

more proof that only the good die young. Cant wait for that filthy hater to finally kick the bucket, i say its long overdue

Posted by: alwaysright

A little inappropriate, don't you think? Wishing for his death.

"the cheridiem can easily solve this issue and show the world this is not about subordinating woman.

Just make the buses separate and have the men sit in the back.

Why not try that and see how it works"

This will not happen because it is quite clear that part of the ultra orthodox doctrine of religion is making women second class citizens. Thus having them sit in the back serves two purposes, segregation and putting down women.

Posted by: SM | May 18, 2011 at 01:04 PM

but they scream and claim otherwise

this is a good challenge to show their true colors

All buses that are frum owned and serves the frum community,is seprate seating only.
Some have a mechitza where on one side are the men and the other for women. Some have it the women in the back and men in front.
This is with the Monsey Trails,Monroe,Williamsburg boro park,bus route from boro park and williamsburg to manhattan.

WoolSilkCotton : requiring the women to remain outside and cling to the handrails wouldn't work because their skirts might flutter and, gasp, reveal a pantyhosed kneecap.

But I do like Seymour's idea of having the men sit in the back. Shall we start a movement on FM and if enough people sign on we can present these demands to Egged and other bus companies :)

that wouldnt work Rochel, because many of the men would sit in the back and fantasize about the women that they see in front of them--better to have a short movie clip in one's head as they walk by, then a longer one the entire bus ride!

the story was made up, and whoever wrote it is pathetically wasting his time and effort trying to push his agenda to knock down rabbeim.

more proof that only the good die young. Cant wait for that filthy hater to finally kick the bucket, i say its long overdue

Posted by: alwaysright

A little inappropriate, don't you think? Wishing for his death.

Posted by: Bobby Sox | May 18, 2011 at 01:09 PM
Inappropriate i dont think so. the world would definitely be better off without this old bastard, who is spreading his hateful sexist agendas, and inciting violence

The Halacha is 1) you have to follow the law of the land. The law here is that segregation is voluntary. 2) It is forbidden by Halacha to embarrass someone like this "man" did.

It was good that he did question his attitude and ask someone - its just sad that the person he asked knew about as much Halacha as he did - not much. Just imagine if the person on the bus had been given the correct answer and told that it was OK to have women at the front. The idiocy would have ended in an instant.

WoolSilkCotton : requiring the women to remain outside and cling to the handrails wouldn't work because their skirts might flutter and, gasp, reveal a pantyhosed kneecap.

But I do like Seymour's idea of having the men sit in the back. Shall we start a movement on FM and if enough people sign on we can present these demands to Egged and other bus companies :)

Posted by: Rochel | May 18, 2011 at 01:55 PM

the back seats can face the back of the bus.

problem solved

TO,WoolSilkCotton

you are a self hating toldos ahrona you dont like it go to toldos avruhum yitzchok , you are a first class chanyok

who encountered a woman in the street who was dressed immodestly and he ripped it [her clothes; the immodest garment] off her.

She was immodestly dressed so he made her MORE so by ripping off the garment?

He is senile, not a reliable person to seek advise from.

And for children to be taught this nonsense, some argue for school vouchers.

Posted by: Barry | May 18, 2011 at 09:14 AM

thanks for the relevant sugya. what masechta and daf is that from?

R. Johanan was accustomed to go and sit at the gates of the bathing place. He said: When the daughters of Israel come up from bathing they look at me and they have children as handsome as I am.


when delusional and conceited fools like this guy are considered holy and to be emulated, its no wonder those that believe so have lost all ability to think rationally.

and then we have elyoshiv seeing a positive example in some guy approaching an unknown woman on the street and ripping off her hat or scarf because HE doesnt like it. it offended his values. WHAT ABOUT THE WOMANS VALUES???? you want others to respect your values? learn to respect ANYTHING other than a 3000 year old antique book and those who waste their time here studying it, and then you can enter a civil discourse with others you feel arent respecting your lifestyle choices.

Rabbi Elyashev is close to 100 years old. the statements he supposedly makes are coaxed from him by self proclaimed Torah activists and his gaboim. I very much doubt that the rav really believes in this stuff. All sorts of self proclaimed askonim use his name for their own purposes.
Frankly the Charedi world in Israel would be taken more seriously if they stopped bothering R. Elyashev, let him study and daven, and seek guidance from "younger" men like rabbi Kanievsky, Rav Shtainman and R. Lipkowitz , but these people may not be so easily manipulated.
Its sad to see the Rav beeing manipulated, and made to look like a "bad " person which he is not.
Perhaps the formation of a 3 man team of roshe yeshiva to counter sign anything the rav endorses would put an end to this nonsense.

Here's a better idea: have the women sitting in the front of the bus facing forwards, and sit the men in the rear of the bus in backwards-facing seats. EIther that, or use double decker buses and make the men sit on the second level.

I just can't wait 'til this senile old misogynist, or one of his vile minions decides that Reb Gershon's thousand year ban on Polygamy really is no longer in effect (hasn't been for 200 years) and the Haredim will start to participate in Polygamous marriages. Thus, by the way, proving that they really are stupid.

And, as usual, I'm glad I'm Jewish and they aren't.


And for children to be taught this nonsense, some argue for school vouchers.

Posted by: Barry | May 18, 2011 at 09:14 AM

thanks for the relevant sugya. what masechta and daf is that from?

Posted by: ah-pee-chorus | May 18, 2011 at 04:22 PM

Yes, Barry, can you point me to this gemara? I mistrust English quotations, because I know it's very easy to take the words out of context, or to twist them around completely. So just because some insane website says R' Elyashiv and the Gemara say you should harass strange women, doesn't mean it's halachically correct.

Please provide the daf and mesechta so we can see for ourselves. (daf means page, mesechta means tractate)

i just found it....its berachos: 20a

I think in a Jewish state men should be seperated on busses from women.This is torah law so why do u secular people get so upset.there are seven other countries that have seperate gender public busses.

I think in a Jewish state men should be seperated on busses from women.This is torah law so why do u secular people get so upset.there are seven other countries that have seperate gender public busses.

Posted by: heshy | May 18, 2011 at 10:54 PM

Process:

1. It is N-O-T Jewish law to have gender segregated buses.

2. Israel is N-O-T a haredi state.

funny

for a bunch of heathens we know the halacha pretty well

Yoilly, its the Soncino translation

http://www.come-and-hear.com/berakoth/berakoth_20.html

I am surprised the frumma men don't require the women to remain outside the bus and cling to handrails.

http://www.profimedia.si/picture/overcrowded-bus-ayeyarwady-delta-near-yandoon-myanmar/0039882520/

Posted by: WoolSilkCotton | May 18, 2011 at 11:50 AM

Handrails? Why go to the expense? Why not just tie them to the roof, like baggage?

A little inappropriate, don't you think? Wishing for his death.

Posted by: Bobby Sox | May 18, 2011 at 01:09 PM

How many more lives does he have to ruin before you deem it appropriate?

TO,WoolSilkCotton

you are a self hating toldos ahrona you dont like it go to toldos avruhum yitzchok , you are a first class chanyok

Posted by: JICKY | May 18, 2011 at 03:53 PM

And you're a brainless shtick drek whose only concern is to bolster your flagging belief system, to chase away the nagging fear that we may actually be right.

Next?

I'm experiencing cognitive dissonance - I just can't believe this story.

Posted by: corn popper | May 18, 2011 at 09:24 AM

so i really don't believe he said something like that.
and if he did, he is in his 90s people say things strange when they are that old.

Posted by: ez | May 18, 2011 at 09:32 AM

Of course. The only acceptable frum response is to deny, deny, deny until you can't deny any longer, then attempt to rationalize it:

I think in a Jewish state men should be seperated on busses from women.This is torah law so why do u secular people get so upset.there are seven other countries that have seperate gender public busses.

Posted by: heshy | May 18, 2011 at 10:54 PM

You people have no clue as to how irrelevant you are. The tragedy is that you think you're the nexus of the universe.

Who in their right mind would give a flying fuck about what this senile old cunt thinks or says?

I think in a Jewish state men should be seperated on busses from women.This is torah law so why do u secular people get so upset.there are seven other countries that have seperate gender public busses.

Posted by: heshy | May 18, 2011 at 10:54 PM

it is not never was.

I looked at the exodus story I nowhere does it say Moses said woman to the right men to the left.

Since your are the one that said it is a torah law please provide the posuk where it says that even remotely

When I was last in Mexico City in the 1990's, there were, I remember, cars on the local rail system reserved for women and children only. This "segregation" was to give women the option of avoiding men who might, as often happened, grope them sexually in crowded cars. It was NOT to protect men from having to be near women. (There were NO cars, or portions of cars, reserved for men only.)

al Farabi - Don't go comparing that dried up old stick to the Holy of Holies.

She was dressed immodestly so he ripped off the clothes that she was wearing :/ Okay, I am officially confused, what was he hoping to accomplish? I think a better explanation would be that she was dressed immodestly and he was aroused, since he was aroused he tried to have his way with her. After tearing off her clothes, she fought him off and got away.

Verify your Comment

Previewing your Comment

This is only a preview. Your comment has not yet been posted.

Working...
Your comment could not be posted. Error type:
Your comment has been posted. Post another comment

The letters and numbers you entered did not match the image. Please try again.

As a final step before posting your comment, enter the letters and numbers you see in the image below. This prevents automated programs from posting comments.

Having trouble reading this image? View an alternate.

Working...

Post a comment

----------------------

FailedMessiah.com is a reader supported website.

Thank you for your generous support!

----------------------

----------------------

----------------------

Please Scroll Down Toward The Bottom Of This Page For More Search Options, For A List Of Recent Posts, And For Comments Rules

----------------------

----------------------

Recent Posts

----------------------

Tip Jar

Gelt Is Good!

Tip Jar

FailedMessiah.com is a reader supported website. Please click the Donate button now to contribute.

Thank you for your generous support!

Tip Jar

Gelt Is Good!

Tip Jar

-------------------------

Comment Rules

  • 1. No anonymous comments.

    2. Use only one name or alias and stick with that.

    3. Do not use anyone else's name or alias.

    4. Do not sockpuppet.

    5. Try to argue using facts and logic.

    6. Do not lie.

    7. No name-calling, please.

    8. Do not post entire articles or long article excerpts.

    ***Violation of these rules may lead to the violator's comments being edited or his future comments being banned.***

Older Posts Complete Archives

Search FailedMessiah

Lijit Search

----------------------

FailedMessiah.com is a reader supported website.

Thank you for your generous support!

----------------------

----------------------

----------------------

FailedMessiah.com in the Media

RSS Feed

Blog Widget by LinkWithin