Haredi Man Arrested For Child Sexual Abuse

State Police at Monroe have charged a 52-year-old Kiamesha Lake man with driving a 14-year-old boy to the America’s Best Value Inn located in the Town of Woodbury and having sexual contact with the child.

 

State Police charged Sullivan County man with sexually abusing boy
Photo News

Monroe - State Police at Monroe have charged a 52-year-old Kiamesha Lake man with driving a 14-year-old boy to the America’s Best Value Inn located in the Town of Woodbury and having sexual contact with the child.

An investigator said the case began after the mother of the boy came to the State Police barracks in Monroe to report the incident. Police said the investigation showed that Joseph Gelbman, 52, of 191 Gibber Road in the Sullivan County community of Kiamesha Lake, had been at the motel on April 14 with the youngster.

Gelbman was arrested April 21 and charged with third-degree sexual abuse, forcible touching and endangering the welfare of a child, all misdemeanors.

He was arraigned before Town of Woodbury Justice David V. Hasin and released on $1,500 bail.

Comments

[WoolSilkCotton]

OK, I'll count to 3, and then all the usual dickwads, such as Sam, Moshy, Chassid, and Real Joe, will come up with excuses for this newest frummer miscreant.

One, two...

[Maple Bacon]

Eww, nasty!! I'd hit it...with a frying pan.

[R. Wisler]

I know Reb Yosef personally and he is a huge ba'al chesed to all of us here in Fort Wayne, IN. Here is a man who is the personification of "ah pintele yid"! I cannot believe that he is involved in any type of sexual abuse or untoward activity!
I am personally, with the has'kah'mah of the heilege Va'ad Ha'Hishtalkus de Ha'Raban'im of Fort Wayne, IN starting a tzekdah Pidyon Shevuyim campaign to pay the $1500.00 bail which the anti-Semitic government and the frumma-Jew hating motel framed Mr. Gelbman with.

Shmarya, you're a self-hating Jew-baiting bastard for publishing this anti-Semitic story!

[R. Wisler]

Did I do okay Wool-Silk-Cotton????

[David]

Can't these scumbags at least remove their kippot for the police photos so as to minimise the chillul Hashem?

Also, since the mother of the boy went to the police would it be fair to say that the boy and the mother were not frumma and perhaps not Jewish? We know that the frumma never go to the police.

[What kind of goyishe name is Harold z"l?]

Is this the gruesome picture of Osama Bin Laden that everyone is talking about? Gruesome, indeed.

[ca]

Rob, I have to completely agree with you, especially since the charges were only misdemeanors. This is hardly news worthy, yet, since he is a Jew, not only has he been falsely arrested, its made the news. Such blatant anti-semitism.

[Bench Kvetcher]

Mother and son both haredi.

[Disgusted]

Drown this piece of dreck and every one like him in the mikve. If we did that there would be no headlines like this and Nuchem Rosenberg could be sent to Bellevue where he belongs.

[WoolSilkCotton]

R. Wisler, I appreciate the humor, and it was written exactly like what I'd expect from the usual molester-protectors I referenced earlier.

[steve]

Oy, what is going on? Every day another arrest, every day another moiser. We used to let the rabbonim handle these matters internally. Now every day we have another chillul hashem in the goyishe news and the goyishe courts. The Agudah and Rabbi Zwiebel, who are hosting a halacha conference next week, need to grab the bull by the horns and put an end to this mesira once and for all! Whatever happened to the good old days when a heilige rebbe such as Yudi Kolko was allowed to continue teaching for 40 years without any moisrim reporting him? Or a Heshy Brier, AM Leizerowitz, Avrohom Reichman, Yehuda Nussbaum, Avremele Mondrowitz, Stefan Colmer whose cases were all handled brilliantly by the rabbonim, in tandem with Ohel. It's all UOJ's and Shmarya's fault, along with that rasha Nuchem Rosenberg who gave these fellow reshaim the idea that it is okay to be moiser a fellow yid. Let's bring back the glory days of free and unimpeded child molesters. Let's empower our batei dinim to rule on these matters as they did so in the past. Help us free Yisroel Weingarten, Baruch Lebovits, Meir Dascalowitz, Yona Weinberg, Dovid Y. Greenfeld, Yechiel Brauner, Yudi Kolko, Yossi Kolko, Emanuel Yegutkin, Nechemya Weberman, Yosef Gelbman, Stefan Colmer, and all those bearded men who have fallen victim to these moisrim. These are all pidyon shvuyim cases endorsed by our heilige rabbonim. Let's stop this power grab by the DA's and allow these breadwinners to remain free. Ohel has a wonderful, wonderful program that offers these victims of this dreaded machla, THERAPY! These chashuva yidden, many of which are mechanchim, are the true victims here. Just ask Jeffrey Schwartz, the attorney for Kolko and Michael Sabo. The moisrim and their families are the true criminals who go against the Agudah dictates and deprive the community of the services of these wonderful, wonderful educators. It's time for Agudah to learn from the Satmar community, who told Dov Hikind to take a hike when he demanded that they fire that wonderful, wonderful educator, Avrohom Reichman. Bring back our glory days, Chadeish Yameinu K'Keidem!

[ali]

It's May 3rd & we're on our second haredi sex arrest this month.

I love a friendly bet. I'll wager we see more than 12 for the merry month of May.

By the way ca, drunken driving is only a misdemeanor too. Are you suggesting that isn't newsworthy either?

[CALA NY]

Serial Child Rapist Meir Dascalowitz Hearing Friday May 6, 2011: The Voice of Justice, the Coalition Against Legal Abuse, and JBAC and other advocates are calling upon the Jewish community to gather in the courtroom on Friday, May 6 2011 at 9:00 AM to show support to victims of this dangerous admitted criminal, and their families.

To show your support of Dascalowitz’s victims, to demand justice, and to send a message that criminals who abuse children in the Jewish community deserve to and will be punished, please attend the Dascalowitz plea hearing below:

Friday, May 6 2011 at 9:00 AM

Kings County Supreme Court

320 Jay Street

Brooklyn, NY

Judge Riviezzo, Part 20

[seymour]

R. Wisler

nothing you said precludes him from being a molester.

That is the fallacy frum people like to say. Simply he could be all you said and be a molester.

it happens all the time

[steve]

Seymour,

What do you mean? Look how long his beard is? He is obviously a holy man, just like BM Lebovits and Yisroel Weingarten, et al.

[The Real Joe]

WTf is wrong with you WoolSilkCotton show me once where I defended a child molester or any of the many other sicko's out there I guess defending the Rubashkin Family has become an automatic connection to frum child molesters well if thats the way you look at things then theres nothing I can do to change your twisted way of thinking trust me as much as I am sad when Jews go to prison as I have have been inside one doing volunteer work once in the past and the experience stayed with me for a long time if you touch a child or women in the wrong place then you deserve to sit for how long and in what type of jail that I will leave up to the GOV

[ca]

Ali, come on, its just like Steve says, "Look how long his beard is?". He's obviously innocent. Rob, knows him personally and can vouch for him.

[seymour]

Seymour,

What do you mean? Look how long his beard is? He is obviously a holy man, just like BM Lebovits and Yisroel Weingarten, et al.

Posted by: steve | May 03, 2011 at 05:50 PM

I think you are correct he only went there to check to see if the boys bris was dome according to halache

[seymour]

his frum

does not make him guilty neither does it make him innocent

[WoolSilkCotton]

Real Joe, go back to the other recent thread about the Lubavitcher molester in Crown Heights, and refresh your memory regarding your postings of May 2 at 5:58pm, when you denied that anything wrong had happened in Crown Heights, because you would have heard of it, and 9:02pm when you denied that the perpetrator could be a Lubavitcher, or that anything had even happened, and offered a load of baloney claiming that he was not a member of the community if it had indeed happened.

I know you are against child molesting, but I also get the distinct impression that you are only against it if the perpetrator is not frum.

[ah-pee-chorus]

steve-
great post!

you can add the sobol case where a "gadol" , asked to rule on what was the appropriate course of action after sobol was caught in a compromising position while a mashgiach katan in a yeshiva in monsey, instructed him to start fresh in israel. it was there, at neveh yehoshua, that one of the worst cases of serial abuse took place.

[The Real Joe]

WoolSilkCotton All's what I wrote was that contrary to the other poster I didn't hear anything in shul about this case and I usually get most news I guess my sources warn't working 100% but to suggest that I was trying to cover it up hell no and my post that I didn't recognize that name I never said that he's not a chabadnik I was just trying to imply that its an unusual name probably someone fairly new to Crown Heights

[maven]

Ah-pee-chorus: thanks for remembering. Sobol walked entirely free and still has his "divrei torah" carried by frum sites.

[Loshon Hora]

Sharyahoo!
I gave you the link Motzei Shabboss, you removed my post. I think you need to spread out the news to keep traffic on your site. So you took another couple of days to post it.
IF it is a 30 year jail crime, how come only $1500.00 bail?
He could sneak out to Mexico & then build himself a villa in Pakistan & hide out there nothing will happen. I guess he could use any rag as turban and his beard is long enough.
The flip side is, both in Jewish law & US law innocent until proven guilty.

[steve]

I should have also mentioned Moshe Eisemann who was "moved" from Philadelphia to Baltimore. His works are still published by Artscroll. One commenter last week on Harry Maryles' blog wrote about Eisemann in glowing terms (referring to him as "shlita" and mentioning his outstanding work for Artscroll). I asked Harry to edit that post which Harry did, removing any mention of Eisemann's name.

[Jewdo]

Keep up the pressure! We will only institute community changes when the people say dayenu!

[ca]

TRJ, to me the question is, why is Chabad always so up in arms to protect its facade of perfection. Admit we have problems just like any other group and make it our goal to solve the problems. You have a problem with Shmarya, well guess what, our cover ups created this blog.

[The Real Joe]

Ca of course chabad has problems including some really big ones but this story has nothing to do with chabad its one sicko doing something wrong who happens to live in CH and call himself a lubavitcher shmarya has takin his blog that I can't imagine the Chabad leadership taking it seriously and there are always people who are out to catch other people and orgs wrong doings if shmarya wouldn't have started fighting chabad I am sure someone else would have success brings a certain type of bad feed back with it nothing can be done about it

[Common Sense]

Can someone who is knowledgeable about this please explain to me why he was only charged with misdemeanors?...I don't understand and would appreciate an explanation.

Thanks

[chassid]

most problably there were kisses and not penetration
nebach,this guy is non normal guy
everyone knows hin
he has many mental problems

[sam]

hey, WSC, you fuckface lier, when did I EVER give any escuse for any child molester or sex criminal?

What I DID do is call you on your ugly glee in finding anything bad in the 'fruma' and Scott's willingness to make something bad sound even worse by distorting and lying.

What an asshole you are!

[seymour]

I am sure you say the same thing when a goy is the molestor

[seymour]

most problably there were kisses and not penetration
nebach,this guy is non normal guy
everyone knows hin
he has many mental problems

Posted by: chassid | May 03, 2011 at 08:16 PM

I am sure you say the same thing when a goy is the molestor

[Miss Understood]

Question: do paedophiles wear their yarmulkes while they are molesting children? I bet they do !

[WoolSilkCotton]

Sam, let's review your postings from the thread about the accused Lubavitcher molester from May 2:

"Only misdemeanor charges for rape? I thought this was a rapist who was 'released on a 100k bail'... So where is YOUR retraction, moron?"
You claimed this was 'only' a misdemeanor, and so, apparently, was not a serious problem in your mind. Let's keep in mind that bail is based primarily on 'flight risk'.

"then why wasn't he charged with statutory rape? you did claim to have information on a rapist, did you not? where is your retraction? and, btw, no one cares what 'you were told', it only matters what you report and how it jives with the facts, which it clearly does not in this case."

It was crystal clear that a Lubavitcher may very well have committed something horrible with a young female child. There was enough preliminary evidence to justify an arrest and arraignment. And all you could think of was excuses to make it seem like nothing serious happened.

"I said, and still say, that the information you claimed to posses yesterday about 'a rapist' was manifestly untrue. No amount of spin on your part will change that."

Sam, you still didn't find it in your heart or mind to realize that a Lubavitcher was charged with a very serious crime involving a sexual act against a young child. If he wasn't charged with rape, but 'only' a misdemeanor, it wasn't any big deal to you.

"who cares if it's murder, rape, assault, battery or a slap in the face? we must not let mere 'terminology' get in the way of jihad against the 'fruma'. anyone who dares to question it must simply 'not care about the victim'. pathetic lobotomized cretin!"

All that matters to you, Sam, is protecting a fellow frummer, no matter how heinous the charge against him is. I can understand that he deserves his day in court, with legal counsel, but you are already set to celebrate his vindication.

"Hitler is the only statement that truly expresses the sprit of this blog."

Of course, Sam, I expected nothing less than for you to play the 'hitler' card.

Sam, I can appreciate your desperate efforts to defend the frumma, including the rights of frumma who stand accused- and believe it or not, I share your view that the rights of the accused are sacrosanct in the American justice system- but you always give the impression that to you, the frumma can never do any wrong, no matter how convincing the evidence, and no matter if a judge and jury found them guilty.

Sam, just once, let's hear you say that frumma are finding themselves on the wrong side of the law much too often, especially with regard to disgusting sexual crimes, and that the religious leadership is spending much too much time defending such criminals instead of ostracizing them.

[anuran]

R. Wisler, that was an incredible POE.

*applause*

[ca]

WSC, I am one Lubavitcher who couldn't agree more. Nice comment.

[sam]

Let me say it again, and please read s-l-o-w-l-y :

1. Nothing you quoted (nice cut-an-paste job) from me speaks about excusing the alleged criminal. it is all about the distortions and the hatred of the 'fruma' on this blog. Just because you wish that I address that topic, doesn't mean that I feel any need to do so here with you.

2. The "hitler" statement, you moron, was not me 'playing the Hitler card', but a response to another vermin who lamented the fact that "hitler didn't get my family".

[Sam]

NEWS OUT OF BORO PARK TONIGHT:

SHOMRIM PHYSICALLY TAKE DOWN 2 ARMED ROBBERS AFTER A MAN IS HELD UP AT 14 & 50 STREET AT APPROXIMATELY 10:55 PM.

[Shmarya]

Can someone who is knowledgeable about this please explain to me why he was only charged with misdemeanors?...I don't understand and would appreciate an explanation.

Thanks

Posted by: Common Sense | May 03, 2011 at 08:05 PM

Prosecutors often seem to under charge sex crimes, probably because they feel it is easier to convict on the lesser charges.

[Common Sense]

Thank you, Shmarya for the explanation. I'm guessing that the backside of this is that it would increase the likelihood that this drek Piece Of $hit may very well likely not end up on the registry, especially if the a$$kunim get involved, after all "how can a frumma yid end up on the registry, while we sit here and not intervene?"

[Get it right!]

I note that his shirt is buttoned right over left. (I hope the picture hasn't been flipped.) People who wear not only their outer jackets, but also their white shirts buttoned right over left are the read chasidim of the world.
So obviously the charges are false.

[WoolSilkCotton]

Sam, the fact of the matter is that any time a frummer is arrested and charged with a serious crime- and yes, serious crimes can sometimes be charged as 'misdemeanors' for whatever technical reason- you always come up with one of these three comments:

1. The alleged perpetrator is not frum, or he's new to the community, or he's wrongly accused, or some other excuse.

2. The victim is lying, or has an 'agenda'.

3. Shmarya and the other commenters here are evil and are somehow to blame.

Each person's postings here should be evaluated based upon content. Underlying motives are largely irrelevant. I am not concerned with what motivates you here; I am only interested in what you write, because that's all that I know of you, notwithstanding any generalizations I may harbor about 'people like you'.

If a posting contains lies, distortions, or opinions with which you disagree, then please tell us what you believe to be the facts or differing opinion.

If you are pained by the fact that frumma find themselves on the wrong side of the law much too often nowadays, welcome to the club. Just once, can we hear some rabbinical leadership expressing disdain for criminal behavior?

Thanks to the internet, Sam, you are discovering a world that you never knew existed- a substantial number of Jews who have, or have had, some connection to the frumma velt, and who are disgusted with the frumma shticklech which go along with that velt. Prior to the internet, it was all swept under the rug. Now, you can't silence us anymore.

Sorry Sam, but now there is a spotlight shining on the dark smelly side of your community, and I can understand your pain in discovering it.

[WoolSilkCotton]

CA, having had lengthy talks with my terrific (Chabad) rabbi about what's going on these days, it is definitely true as you stated recently that a huge number of Lubavitchers are disgusted with all the sleaze, the infighting, the negativity towards the police (which is the latest ugliness that has reared its head there), and the breakdown in civility and decency in the community. Most remain silent, because the thugs are just not worth confronting.

The menschliche shluchim have to go on with a smile, in keeping with the Rebbe's global mission. It is embarrassing nowadays for shluchim to bring groups of Jews from their communities to visit Crown Heights, as they once proudly used to, because now they witness the meshichist insanity going on at 770.
Much of the negativity and ugliness going on in the neighborhood seems to point to the meshichist thugs and their power agenda, which has nothing to do with any alleged enthusiasm for the Rebbe.

CH just isn't the warm friendly place anymore that attracted so many of us once upon a time. Perhaps some day it will be again.

There are a lot of wonderful things about the religious life, especially Lubavitch, but for me it was always a balance against the silly petty junk that went with the package. It used to be a lot easier to overlook those things. Nowadays, it is much more painful.

[Moshe aron kestenbaum,Williamsburg ODA]

The city of Sedom was destroyed because they did terrible sins and ... .This pedophile who sodomized a young boy with his raging boner , this PERVERT who dare calls himself a rabbi, Vishnits who pays him a wage,How dare he is employed by the vishnits mosdos? This pervert should be hung on his dick , this animal who robbed a young child from his innocence should stay hangging on a tree at the front gate of Gibbers untill his dick dissolves.

[Isa]

"""""I note that his shirt is buttoned right over left. (I hope the picture hasn't been flipped.)"""""

IF the picture has not been flipped then this sicko is wearing a women's blouse maybe he has a bra underneath that too!

[ca]

WSC, all true.

[Rochel]

WSC: re most recent post from May 04, 2011 at 07:30 AM:
thanks for sharing with us.

[ca]

It used to be a highlight to be able to bring someone to Crown Heights. Now I don't even go myself. Its a shanda. A lot of good wonderful people, but the wackos have to always waive their flag and shout.

[WoolSilkCotton]

Rochel, thanks.

CA, my rabbi says the same thing.
If he goes to 770, he davens upstairs near the Rebbe's office.

[sam]

WSC, I am going to try one more time (not sure why I bother):

Contrary to your assumptions, it doesn't bother me to see that frum people committing crimes are exposed. Moreover, it is foolish to assume that with the numbers of frum people out there today you would not find some bad news to publish every day.

However, when someone does this almost exclusively as Scott shr"i does here, his motivation then becomes patently clear – to create an negative impression of the entire community and to create guilt by association. Imagine a website that was devoted almost entirely to publishing 'black crime news'. Everyone would brand that site 'rasist', even if everything published there was factually correct. So the motivation here is clearly NOT the purported 'concern for the victims'.

If this wasn't enough, Scott goes out of his was to paraphrase, exaggerate and distort real news items in order to make the bad sound even worse (case in point yesterday's "Chabad rapist").

He also has gathered a little choir of sycophants – you among them – that receive all this 'news' with unconcealed glee and make open statements vilifying all the 'fruma'.

These are THE ONLY things I commented on. I have as much interest in discussing real problems that exist in our community, like the plight of sex abuse victims, on this blog as I would on some anti-semitic skinhead website.

That certainly doesn't mean I am not aware of the problems, nor that I don't care about them. You are the ones who don't care about the victims and are simply using this non-existing 'care' as an excuse for your ani-semitic rants.

[Shmarya]

Imagine a website that was devoted almost entirely to publishing 'black crime news'. Everyone would brand that site 'rasist', even if everything published there was factually correct.

Not if the publisher was a former leader of the black community who was disaffected due to the community's failure to confront black generated crime.

[WoolSilkCotton]

Sam, just do a little googling and you will see plenty of articles and websites of and by African American people discussing the problem of high crime rates by African American men, and doing so with plenty of candor and criticism.

There simply is no vehicle, other than FM, for Jews to discuss the problem of crime in the orthodox Jewish world.

[Zalman Alpert]

Why are there so many Charedi perverts ?And why the tame reaction to these incidents in the Charedi community ?

[sam]

yes, do show me a black website devoted exclusively to black crime

[WoolSilkCotton]

http://video.search.yahoo.com/search/video?p=i+love+black+people+chris+rock

[sam]

you have got to be kidding! to compare this to a routine by a blacks stand-up comedian!

[WoolSilkCotton]

http://wakeupblackamerica.blogspot.com/2009/07/teachable-moment-about-black-on-black.html

[WoolSilkCotton]

If you want to see more, Sam, do your own f*cking googling, you lazy dishonest sh!t.

[sam]

right, you can't show even ONE sight like this run by blacks – can't ever back up a single point you make, you vapid ashole.

[WoolSilkCotton]

More people saw Chris Rock's 'I love black people but I hate...' than will ever see any blog.

If you don't think that had any impact, you are merely revealing how ignorant you are about Chris Rock, David Chapelle, Richard Pryor, Eddie Murphy and Bill Cosby, and what they've all had to say on the matter, both on stage and in interviews.

Of course, sealed in your mental bunker in the frumma ghetto, you know nothing. Good luck, and have a pleasant evening.
Enough feeding the troll for me tonight.

[WoolSilkCotton]

Hey stupid retard, I showed you:

http://wakeupblackamerica.blogspot.com

I know you are too retarded to read above the 3rd grade level, and you have never watched television, so I might as well be talking to a Martian.

[sam]

And, Scotty, everyone knows you were never an insider in the chareidi community, just a BT who didn't succeed in integrating even to a point of simply getting married. Much less a 'leader in the Haredi community' (to use your analogy)! Preposterous lier!

Now, it is understandable that you have an ax to grind – no one likes being rejected. What is not excusable is the pretend bullshit that you are 'concerned' about anything other than simple revenge.

[Shmarya]

And, Scotty, everyone knows you were never an insider in the chareidi community, just a BT who didn't succeed in integrating even to a point of simply getting married. Much less a 'leader in the Haredi community' (to use your analogy)! Preposterous lier!

Sam, you're not bright – but you are arrogant. I can't even imagine what kind of people your parents are. Perhaps I should check them out.

Anyway, I was a shaliach appointed with the bracha of the Rebbe with the his full knowledge of who I was.

Before that, I headed the largest Jewish student organization in the US.

I successfully lobbied Congress and the White House, and I represented the US in several European countries.

And that's a short list – a list far longer than yours is or will ever be.

Past all that, your argument, such that it was, makes no sense.

You said if someone made a site about black on black crime, that person would be called a racist by everyone.

I responded by saying that is false. If the person who made the site was black, there would not be universal condemnation.

WSC pointed out several black public figures who have made an issue out of black on black crime, and he also linked to one site that has done the same.

The point, sam, is that I'm not a bigot. I report the crime that exists in your community – and which your community tries to hide from the outside world.

I think I'll look up your family now. I look forward to meeting them.

[sam]

Whatever you did as a student (a funny thing to lean back at for a 50+ man) is not relevant. You were never considered 'a leader in the chareidy community'. I don't know what the nature of your 'sclichus' was (perhaps you can enlighten us). But I am willing to bet it was not of the "community leadership" kind.

I am simply pointing out that you hate Chabad (your right) and frum people in general and that is your main motivation in this blog. NOT, as you claim, the plight of the victims.

And, speaking of forebears, don't you think it is high time you report on the well-known crime family you come from?

[sam]

I think I'll look up your family now. I look forward to meeting them.
Should I be reporting this threat to my family to the FBI? I think so...

[Shmarya]

I think people will be very interested in your family, sam – which is why I have someone tracking them down now.

As for what I did as a student, it certainly surpasses anything you've ever done. In fact, you pile your whole stinking family together and it would surpass all of them.

That's because you're pond scum, sam, and you come from pond scum, and you freely associate with pond scum.

Now run along, sam. You won't have very long to rest.

[Shmarya]

Should I be reporting this threat to my family to the FBI? I think so...

Posted by: sam | May 04, 2011 at 06:37 PM

Please do. They already know who you are. I made sure of that months ago.

[sam]

While you 'track' my family down. Could you p-l-e-a-s-e tell us what it was like to grow up with a mafia-boss grandpa? :)

[Shmarya]

I wouldn't know, because I didn't.

But you clearly grew up with scum.

[sam]

Are you saying this is not true?
http://benatlas.com/2011/01/shmarya-rosenbergs-grandfather-killed-himself-rather-than-face-federal-sentence/

[Shmarya]

Is that blogger still alive? I heard he had an accident.

[sam]

or this?

http://benatlas.com/2011/01/the-subliminal-legacy-of-the-al-capone-of-st-paul-leon-gleckma/

[sam]

"Is that blogger still alive? I heard he had an accident."

nice. perhaps you asked one of your family's cronies to 'arrange' an accident?

[sam]

suddenly mum?

[Shmarya]

Nope. Making dinner.

So he's alive? I'm glad there was rachmanut on his mother.

[sam]

his latest post is dated today:
http://benatlas.com/2011/05/gary-taubes-posts-his-blood-lipids/

so I would imagine he is alive.
what about his posts about your grandfather? true?

[Shmarya]

Those posts you linked to above?

Largely false.

[sam]

ok, let's make it simple. Was the infamous Leon Gleckman your grandfather?

[Shmarya]

Lets make it even simpler. What made him infamous?

[sam]

drop the 'infamous' then

[Shmarya]

Not so fast. You've in effect made an allegation. What made him infamous?

[sam]

Ok, let's stick to more objectively defined terms. His name pops up all over as a mafia boss. Like say here:
http://www.americanmafia.com/Feature_Articles_453.html

So he is famous, but not in a good sense of the word. So let's say 'of ill fame'... instead of 'infamous'.

[Shmarya]

He wasn't a mafia boss.

[sam]

so the link from americanmafia.com is also false? How abou the following? (from here: http://www.3ammagazine.com/3am/st-pauls-gangster-era/)

it's a long artcile, but here is a pretty pertinent quote: "...Gleckman was, and is, called the Al Capone of St. Paul. and coincidentally was brought down by the same crime. In 1934, Gleckman was sent to prison for good for tax evasion after having been investigated by the same men who nailed Capone."

[sam]

let me rephrase the original question in the least accusative, most objective terms:
"Was Leon Gleckman, referred to (whether accurately or not) in the last link I provided as "the Al Capone of St. Paul," your grandfather?

[Shmarya]

t's a long artcile, but here is a pretty pertinent quote: "...Gleckman was, and is, called the Al Capone of St. Paul. and coincidentally was brought down by the same crime. In 1934, Gleckman was sent to prison for good for tax evasion after having been investigated by the same men who nailed Capone."

That's the problem with untrained people writing history.

That quote and other similar quotes go back to one book which took the Al Capone reference (out of context, if memory serves me) from US Government report about the liquor business during prohibition. It referred to the scope and control of the liquor trade, not to violence and other crimes.

[sam]

OK, was Leon Gleckman, often referred to as "the Al Capone of St. Paul" (a comparison that in your view is ill-informed), your grandfather?

[Shmarya]

The interesting thing about Gleckman was that he was gezhe. He had better Chabad yichus than 99% of Crown Heights.

Do you mean to say that, if your cartoonish and incorrect version of his life was true, that would somehow reflect on his ancestors?

Or do you mean that reflection would only impact future generations?

While we're at it, does that also work with mental illness?

Because the Rebbe's ggrandfather was mentally ill, as were several other members of the Schneersohn family.

[sam]

All interesting questions, but I am not prepared to discuss ANY implications of this today – I am already worn out by this conversation and so far I can't find any way of phrasing a simple question in a way that will get a 'yes' or 'no' answer from you. And I tried very hard to remove any possibility that a 'yes' answer by you could possibly be interpreted as your acquiescence to the prevalent public descriptions of Leon Gleckman's life...

So for the last time: was this man, Leon Gleckman your grandfather?

[Shmarya]

Again, several times above (and also on previous posts, using much harsher language) you attempted to use Gleckman to smear me.

So my questions are absolutely valid.

I'll repeat them for you, so you can answer them:The interesting thing about Gleckman was that he was gezhe. He had better Chabad yichus than 99% of Crown Heights.

Do you mean to say that, if your cartoonish and incorrect version of his life was true, that would somehow reflect on his ancestors?

Or do you mean that reflection would only impact future generations?

While we're at it, does that also work with mental illness?

Because the Rebbe's ggrandfather was mentally ill, as were several other members of the Schneersohn family.

Nu?

[seymour]

Sam,

first if you are religious and studied torah you know that one cannot condemn a son for their father crime.

Two stick to the issues.

Three most people who comment and read this blog understand that their will be a few frum criminals the issue here is really the reaction of the frum community of denials, excuses, they where framed etc. It is always everybody else who is guilty never ever the frum person

three they protect the criminal and vilify the victim if they reported the crime.

four they claim they are holier and their way of life will lead to bettr people,

now you know

FM if that is true about your granddad just admit what is the big deal.

That whole era of mafia jew died out in the 30's and looks like is being resurrected by today's frummies and following the Italian mafia again, financial crime.

PS I thought the Purple gang ran st paul

[sam]

Your questions ARE valid (I acknowledged as much a minute ago). But I will address them AFTER you answer the one simple question I have been asking. And not tonight – I am exhausted, and some of the questions you raised require some more elaborate answers, not a simple "yes" or "no".

[sam]

well?

[WoolSilkCotton]

Sam, all that can be said with certainty is that you are extremely mentally ill.

[sam]

'with certainty'
WSC, you can't tell the difference between your ass and your elbow 'with certainty'

[WoolSilkCotton]

Sam, in a few more minutes, you will be permanently banned from this site.

[sam]

WSC, f*** off, you nauseate me

[seymour]

Sam, in a few more minutes, you will be permanently banned from this site.

Posted by: WoolSilkCotton | May 04, 2011 at 09:06 PM

maybe not since I do give Shmarya credit for taking a lot of heat from some of us and not banning them.

hats off to you Shmarya for giving people and even people who totally disagree with you a forum to voice their opinion

[WoolSilkCotton]

Sam, if I nauseate you, I have succeeded.