Conservative Ethics Hechsher "A Falsification Of True Judaism," Agudath Israel Says

The goal of Magen Tzedek is to redefine kashrut. Its exclusive purview is food.  In its own literature, it calls itself the “gold standard of kashrut,” prominently claims to offer “kashrut for the 21st century,” and states its objective: to “improve our consciousness, understanding and practice of kashrut by extending the definition beyond ritual to reflect ethical, environmental and social concerns.”

 

Agudath Israel: New Hechsher “Magen Tzedek” A Falsification Of True Judaism
VIN News

New York - A new seal for kosher products and establishments being promoted by the Conservative movement is reportedly about to appear alongside those of Orthodox kashrus agencies.  The “Magen Tzedek” certification is intended to signify adherence to certain standards regarding labor, treatment of animals, safety, environmental concerns and corporate integrity.

Such issues are worthy ones but they are well covered by governmental regulations and other areas of halacha, as determined by recognized Torah authorities.  They have nothing to do with kashrut.

The goal of “Magen Tzedek,” however, is nothing less than to redefine kashrut.  Magen Tzedek is the symbol of an entity called the “Hekhsher Tzedek Commission.”  Its exclusive purview is food.  In its own literature, it calls itself the “gold standard of kashrut”; prominently claims to offer “kashrut for the 21st century”; and states its objective: to “improve our consciousness, understanding and practice of kashrut by extending the definition beyond ritual to reflect ethical, environmental and social concerns.”

There is no such thing as “ritual.”  There is only halacha – the holiness we are enjoined by our Creator to embrace.  To in any way change halacha is to corrupt the essence of the concept of mitzvah, Divine commandment.

The brazen effort of Magen Tzedek to change the Jewish mesorah, or religious tradition, should come as no surprise, considering its source.  The Conservative movement has repeatedly shown that it harbors no respect for the very concept of halacha as it has been carefully preserved with great sacrifice by observant Jews through the ages.  For a movement that does not subscribe to halacha to suddenly inject itself into a complex halachic realm like kashrut – with the avowed purpose of “extending the definition” of kashrut – should strike any informed Jews as unmitigated chutzpah.

We Jews have a responsibility to not only ethics but to the entirety of the Torah.  All of us who recognize the Divine nature of halacha, along with our established kashrut organizations, should regard the new seal for what it is, a falsification of the Jewish religious heritage, and treat it accordingly.

Agudath Israel is making two false contentions: 1. Magen Tzedek's seal will only be found on food and, 2. That enforcing Jewish laws on ethical behavior is invalid and outside Jewish tradition if that enforcement is done on a kosher food provider.

The Magen Tzedek is starting on food because the kosher food industry is rife with problems: worker abuse, various forms of tax fraud and illegal business practices, and animal abuse. But it plans to expand to other specifically Jewish products.

Magen Tzedek does not give standard kosher certification and makes that point exceedingly clear. To get the Magen Tzedek, a food producer must first have kosher supervision from a kashrut agency or rabbi.

Past that, how Jews treat their employees is part of Jewish law. Yet Agudath Israel is happy to allow the government to regulate the enforcement of those laws, while at the same time it mandates the strictest haredi kosher supervision for the minutia – almost all rabbinic in origin – of kosher food production.

That Agudath Israel doesn't like Magen Tzedek is abundantly clear.

But so is the fact that Agudath Israel is lying to try to make its points.

[Hat Tip: CS.]

Update 11:32 am CST 5-5-11 – Magen Tzedek responds to Agudath Israel.

Comments

[Deremes]

Kudos to the Aguda and the OU most come out as strong.

I wouldn't be worried much.
All Orthodox owned food companies wont bother with the conservative '"hecscher" and no retail store in any frum neighborhood will take in a product that has that hecsher.

[Jeff]

Whom are they addressing? The frei yidden have no interest in anything they have to say, and the frummies already know this - so why are they bothering? To convince themselves?

[leibish teitelbaum]

my rebbi satmar kiryas joel said we have to make sure that no bal machysir shell give a hecsher if it has a conservative seal

[skeptical]

This is kind of stupid. There is nothing halachically wrong with certifying that it is "kosher" in terms of tzedek as well as in terms of kashrut. Thats like saying that you can't say "I don't think this deal is entirely kosher" (eg above board) or "Tupac is not Kosher music for frumme yidden" (eg lyrically appropriate). Thank god we have lived to see the day when Orthodoxy came out against metaphor.

[Zalman Alpert]

Rabbosai, this is a serious problem in places outside of Flatbush , Kew Gardens etc.
In many smaller communities Conservative rabbis and Chabad are all thats left.
The Rubashkin scandal so sullied the Orthodox name that while I dislike the Consrvative move, perhaps it will serve as a warning for the OU and its rabbinic leader to clean up their act.
Hashgocha inlcudes araes like hospital kitchens, catereers, summer camps, Old age homes etc and I see the Conservatives attempting to get in these areas.

[Shmarya]

My rebbe says we can't eat food produced under the hechsher of rabbis who cover up and enable child sexual abuse. So now we're all starving to death.

[jay]

Hechsher Tzedek isn't a kosher certification. It's a seal of approval supposedly guaranteeing kashrut as an addition to standard supervisions.

I personally avoid Meal Mart/Alle and CRC. Why anyone would trust supervisions that are administered by a group that despises other Jews is beyond understanding.

[Deremes]

jay,don't be so complexed.
In fact you despise people like them much more then they despise people like you.

[Yechiel]

Deremes:
גוט געזאגט...

[seymour]

"We Jews have a responsibility to not only ethics but to the entirety of the Torah."

unfortunately, it has been shown the orthodox do not care about ethics, no one if the frum community cared about what was going on at Rubashkin all they cared about that is was kosher and that is all that mattered . even the OU admitted that saying we only take care of the kashrus of the meat the other stuff is in the hands of the government. I know many gentle who do not buy certain products because of corporate practices

There is no conflict here regarding kashrus all this has to do with is with corporate business practices .

What a shame that the frum do not care how a company runs their business whether they pay workers or pollute all that matters to them is it kosher. The torah tanach and the gemorah spends time on ethics and how to treat people and animals, something that for some reason this author and others simply forgot or want to ignore.

There is more to yissihgeit beside bein adom lamokon, there is another halve of bein adom lachavara something it has been proven the ultra ort5hdox do not care about

[jay]

Deremes, I am mostly indifferent to Hassidim. I genuinely like some. I sincerely respect a few. I despise apologists like you.

[seymour]

maybe the real problem is that no hemieshie business would be able to get one and that would be very telling

[yidandahalf]

Yes, it's the Jewish Good Housekeeping Seal of Approval. Better Business Bureau and Consumer Reports, as well as the Christian Science Monitor are all backing it.

[Gefilte Fish]

I recall a few years ago that Meal Mart, the "golden boy" of the Satmar food business, was caught selling outright treif in the stores that had an MO clientele.

[Gevezener Chusid]

I agree with the concept of Hechsher Tzedek. I would add another point: that things that are really unhealthy should not be given hechsheirim.

The problem with the Hechsher Tzedek idea is that people have poised it as a political tool rather than as a religious one.

[LSK]

The OU, OK, etc. have LITTLE to do with kosher food as well: they certify toilet bowl cleaner, laundry detergent, aluminum foils, and other non-foods.

[seymour]

one should go to vin to see the comments

very few are for this most think it is an affront to orthodoxy

that is simply prove that this is needed the orthodox have no concept of ethics

[Gefilte Fish]

Seymour, if you read between the lines, they really object to it because it is an affront to Rubashkin and to Meal Mart.

[Yechiel]

Heck-sher Tzedek is attempting to revive a dying faction of Judaism. They are merely attempting to make some noise. It's not about. Kosher or ethics. It's an agenda.
OK! I can hear you.... now please go back to sleep.

[yidandahalf]

Horsedrek Tzedek would have gotten some modicum of support if they had come out in favour of animal welfare. They say nothing about the horrors of slaughter at Agri, Alle, et al. They are are cohort of bench warming Yekkes who 'feel the need' to be a relevant faction within a Jewish faith they believe they alone have the right to define. After a bit of noise, and farting, their shtempel will be bankrupt and archived.

[Moshe aron kestenbaum,Williamsburg ODA]

What the fuck is the agudath thinking or saying? Agudath Israel
I want you to answer me this: What Is yashress? when a rabbi takes a bribe to bend a case? is yashress when a pedofhile gets off the hook because his cousin the rabbi influenced the beth din? Is yashress callled a ban on anything that moves or prints because some rabbi feels Threatened ? You big mouth do nothing rabbis i have news for you you are a Threatened species already by now, No serious bal habayis has any trust in you guys. You created this distrust by your own sedom ways, so stop making the olim crazy with your new kol koras or bans its a waste of time and money and it gets stale faster then milk.

[R Schachter]

I went with a Bdikah Shmatah to a Rov. He checked it well, and said the color is Kosher.
Then I needed to also get a Tzedek Hechsher, so I went to a conserv Rabbi, he made sure that the Shmateh is recycled, and that my wife never puts it into somebody else, and he also gave me his Hechsher.

[seymour]

What the fuck is the agudath thinking or saying? Agudath Israel
I want you to answer me this: What Is yashress? when a rabbi takes a bribe to bend a case? is yashress when a pedofhile gets off the hook because his cousin the rabbi influenced the beth din? Is yashress callled a ban on anything that moves or prints because some rabbi feels Threatened ? You big mouth do nothing rabbis i have news for you you are a Threatened species already by now, No serious bal habayis has any trust in you guys. You created this distrust by your own sedom ways, so stop making the olim crazy with your new kol koras or bans its a waste of time and money and it gets stale faster then milk.

Posted by: Moshe aron kestenbaum,Williamsburg ODA | May 04, 2011 at 07:54 AM

unfortunately the ultra orthodox has absolute faith in the rebbeis no matter what they do or say.

[yudel]

All the Agudath can do is react not inspire.

These people walk on the graves of their Rebbes and spit on their names.

They speak with forked tongues literally.

They are an anachronism and their end despite tooting their demographics is coming.

They are cowards.

In a word they worship men not GD.

They follow false idols who teach not.

The history of kashrut in America runs right to their door.

Who knows how many people they assaulted literally over the years for not taking their advice or threatened and of course how many of us grew up eating treif meat courtesy of their lax standards and their taking of bribes and deeming that kosher.

And the biggest irony is that the Council of Sage Rabbis do not eat any of their meat. They all go to private shochtim to tend to their needs. This they will not tell you of course but emes is emes.

It is all about money and power not holiness so things devolve but now are evolving to others who are trying to raise the standards.

Here you have them also taking money of course at the core of their stamps of approval.

Taking bribes in the name of tzedekah is quite an old custom with these people.

When you roll out lawyers for press releases you know you are in trouble.

But I guess they are better than their Rebbes who spew nothing but negativity , put down regular Yidden, despise any Jew not relgious like them, and condemn and through venom at other Jews.

Even when they speak about loving others they speak not from the heart but read the riot act in their self righteousness and set themselves up as kings in love with money and cavod.

Folks ----study Kashrut in America and ask yourself am i going to believe a word this crew that dresses in black has to say about kashrut?

Educate yourself in Torah and on this subject. It is hard not to be angry at them for their lies and theft.

[Barry]

Whenever deciding whether a particular activity should be allowed one must balance the advantages of carrying out the activity against the disadvantages that activity may result in.

So for example everyone agrees that businesses need to be protected from having their customers robbed and goods stolen by local hoodlums. However we must always bear in mind that those who provide security are open to corruption and can give rise to protection rackets.

The problem with the kashrus certification industry is that it provides no (secular) benefit to society whatsoever but does give rise to problems relating to corruption, repression of free trade, cartels,predatory pricing, tying, price gouging, refusal to deal, and many other issues relating to anti competitive practices as well as issues arising from racial preferences. In other words from a secular point of view, there can never be any advantages in kashrus certification but only risks and that accordingly, from a secular point of view bearing in mind the need for separation of Church and State, the Kashrus certification industry needs to be suppressed in the manner of any other cartel engaging in practices which are anti competitive.

Secular law should not recognize Hecksherim as valid trademarks, neither should businesses be allowed to claim payments to kashrus certification as a valid business expense.

[yidandahalf]

Reb Schachter, HYSTERICAL! Keep it up!!!

[seymour]

what really needs to done is a kahrus certificate independent of the business.

Funded separately by the frum community.
Therefore the certificate does not get more or less money.

[MM]

SO if kashrus is about food and nothing else, how come we are always hearing about some agency pulling or threatening to pull its hechsher for transgressions such as shiksas coming in a restaurant dressed "immodestly" or teenage boys and girls standing in the same line to buy an ice cream cone and then, heaven forfend, sitting down at the same picnic table to enjoy their treat? Such hypocrisy on the part of AI!

Oh, and this statement also misrepresents the position of the Conservative movement on halacha. Further, some of the aspects of halacha do indeed pertain to ritual (yes, there is such a thing), and other aspects concern things which are not ritual. Lighting shabbas candles, putting up mezuzahs, wearing tzitzis=ritual; respecting your parents, not causing unnecessary suffering to animals, not having sex with your neighbor's wife=non-ritual. All halacha....

[kosher consumer]

Perhaps if the this HT had been started by someone other than Morris Allen, it might get more support from the orthodox community. But because MA started all this HT business because of his disagreement and unhappiness with SMR and with the St. Paul chassidic community and glatt vs. nonglatt in the local grocery store, he should have let someone else take over his mission. But MA is out to make a name for himself.

[Shmarya]

Please.

He was right about Agriprocessors and eating non-glatt is perfectly acceptable in halakha and was, in fact, the standard 50 years ago – including for hasidim.

[kosher consumer]

The problem is not with non-glatt. It's kosher. The problem is that he was mad that the local grocery store was going to be carrying only glatt.

Oh, and you are welcome.

[Shmarya]

Idiot.

The problem was that the local grocery store was forced to carry only glatt by the local supplier, which refused to sell non-glatt meat to it under the direction of its rabbi.

[kosher consumer]

Why am I an idiot?

What you said about the grocery store is true. I said that MA's problem was that the local grocery store was only going to be selling glatt meat.

MA chose to take out his frustration on the community of the rabbi making the decision about what kind of meat to sell. His frustration grew into a hatred for the umbrella group for the orthodox community in St. Paul.

He could have chosen to boycott the grocery store and take issue with them for not having the backbone to stand up to the rabbi.

[Shmarya]

You most certainly are an idiot.

The rabbi who blocked the non-glatt meat wasn't in Saint Paul, and the grocery store only agreed to have a kosher meat section because of Rabbi Allen and another person, both of who were screwed by the kosher food distributor and Rabbi Zeilingold.

[Leibel Schenkel]

What the Aguda & OU forgot is that in the Beis Hamikdosh, everything was done under the Hechsher Zedek. When Dovid Hamelech got his delivery of emergency rations from Barzilai, the same Hashgochoh. Don't forget when the birds fed Eliyahu Hanovi & when Yechezkel hanovi made his special bread also under the Hechsher Zedek. When will those ignorami ever learn.....

[kosher consumer]

Maybe you are the idiot because you can't answer why I'm an idiot.

I heard that it was the local St. Paul orthodox rabbi who said that non-glatt meat couldn't be sold in the grocery store. If I'm wrong, I'm wrong. But that doesn't make me an idiot.

Well, actually, you are right. I am an idiot for even visiting your blog.

[Shmarya]

You wrote:…But because MA started all this HT business because of his disagreement and unhappiness with SMR and with the St. Paul chassidic community and glatt vs. nonglatt in the local grocery store, he should have let someone else take over his mission. But MA is out to make a name for himself.You wrote it as if it were fact, not a rumor you heard.

If you had said, "I heard a rumor that…is it true? If it is, then…" that would be one thing.

But you didn't do that, now did you.

[Shmarya]

To complete that thought, you used this rumor to attack a man you don't know.

[kosher consumer]

The paragraph you just quoted is all true.

MA has a beef (excuse the pun) with the St. Paul orthodox community and its rabbi and with SMR.

MA was/is angry about the grocery store not carrying nonglatt meat.

MA is out to make a name for himself.

These are facts.

I have a heard a rumor that you have been getting cozy with MA and that's very nice for the both of you since you can bash chassidim together when you go out to eat in trief restaurants. Actually, I don't know if you eat in treif restaurants. Haven't heard a rumor either way on that. But I do know for a fact, that MA does eat in treif places. So much for his strong stance on kashrus.

[Shmarya]

Yup. You're a certifiable idiot.

1. MA and the local OJ rabbi, a Chabadnik, were friends when the distributor would not sell the store non-glatt meat.

2. Both MA and the local OJ were initally mad about this.

3. The local OJ rabbi *later* broke with MA after MA's investigation of Agriprocessors confirmed the Forward's exposé.

4. The current lack of non-glatt meat is a punishment of MA by the local OJ rabbi and the distributor for telling the truth about their friend Rubashkin.

5. I'm friendly with many people – including MA, Postville residents, former Agriprocessors Jewish employees, former Agriprocessors non-Jewish employees, etc. It's my job.

Now toddle off, shoteh.

[kosher consumer]

Not knowing all the facts, does not make someone an idiot. Believing that one knows the facts because that is what everyone else believes does not make someone an idiot, either.

1. All Jews love one another, but we don't all like one another.

2. So you said.

3. We all know that MA pushed the SMR issue because SMR wouldn't do what MA wanted him to do. Maybe initially, MA wanted to help, but when SMR wouldn't do what he wanted, he pushed and pushed until SMR ended up in jail.

4. The current lack of nonglatt meat could still be because of the original reason. How do you know it's a punishment? Rumor isn't fact.

5. I know you are a friendly guy. It's your job.

You neglected to comment on MA trying to make a name for himself with his fake hecksher.

And why do you have to be so mean? Do you do it for the ratings? To uphold your reputation for nastiness? This could also be the reason you are not married.

[Shmarya]

3. We all know that MA pushed the SMR issue because SMR wouldn't do what MA wanted him to do. Maybe initially, MA wanted to help, but when SMR wouldn't do what he wanted, he pushed and pushed until SMR ended up in jail.

You're a fool.

What MA wanted him to do was to follow the law and stop stealing from his workers.

SMR ended up in jail because he was also stealing from his banks.

4. The current lack of nonglatt meat could still be because of the original reason. How do you know it's a punishment? Rumor isn't fact.

Because I know the facts. Unlike you, I'm not relying on rumor.

You neglected to comment on MA trying to make a name for himself with his fake hecksher.

What MA is doing is trying to ensure that Jewish food and Jewish ritual items are produced without stealing from and mistreating workers, mistreating animals and polluting the environment – all laudible goals well within normative halakha.

And why do you have to be so mean? Do you do it for the ratings? To uphold your reputation for nastiness? This could also be the reason you are not married.

I'm "mean" because I dislike people like you who throw out halakha in order to smear people you don't like and don't know, and because I suffer fools poorly.

And you are most definitely a fool. How T puts up with you is beyond me.

[kosher consumer]

I knew MA long before I ever met you. I know what kind of person he is. And I know that he is the one throwing halacha out the door.

I know you think I'm a fool because I joined the same organization you once joined. I found fulfillment where you found frustration.

As for T, he has a loving wife and K"H a house full of kids.

And you have a bitter heart.

[Shmarya]

The problem is that you're ignorant and arrogant.

You don't know halakha – or much of anything else.

And T is a saint to put up with you.

[kosher consumer]

I am not as wise as you Great Oz, but I just keep learning.

Arrogant? Not usually a word used to describe me. Naive, maybe. But not arrogant.

Back when you knew me you could have said that I don't know anything about halacha, but I've learned a few things. I also happen to know that MA does not follow halacha (I used to be a member of his congregation).

And you obviously know nothing about T since he isn't T anymore. And does it take a saint to love his wife? Mother of his children? Oh, sorry, you wouldn't know anything about that kind of stuff.

And by the way, I was always very kind and friendly to you. Why do you have to treat me this way? What did I ever do to YOU?

[Shmarya]

Why do you have to treat me this way? What did I ever do to YOU?

You attack people based on absolute falsehoods and you don't like my reaction to that?

This isn't the first time you've done this.

And you can't possibly know what MA does or doesn't do with regard to halakha because, quite frankly, you have no idea what halakha is or how it works.

And, yes, T – or whatever he calls himself now – is a saint for putting up with you.

[kosher consumer]

What did I ever do to YOU? That is the question. Can you answer that? You personally.

How can you say I know nothing about halacha? When is the last time you and I talked about it?

And what is so terrible about me that my husband is a saint to have to put up with me? I just don't get it. I might not have all the facts about things, but you can't even answer me with substance. Why am I terrible wife? I'm sure your adoring fans would like to know what you find so horrible in me.

[Shmarya]

I find people who attack and smear others based on rumor and innuendo to be vile.

As for your lack of knowledge of halakha, that is abundantly clear.

[kosher consumer]

How is my lack of knowledge of halacha abundantly clear? Talk about vile innuendo!!! You haven't said one thing of substance. You just keep saying I'm stupid and and an idiot and a horrible wife. Where are the facts you hold so sacred?

[yidandahalf]

Also the Horseshit tzedek symbol looks like a Pennsylvania Dutch quilt patch or barn hex. Rabbi "Don't let me die unnoticed" Allen made a goyishe pagan symbol. Where do I send my donation to the shlemiel?

[Shmarya]

You're so ignorant of halakha you don't even realize what you did wrong.

But I'll help you out a little bit. What does MA do that you believe to be against halakha?

[kosher consumer]

There once was a young man who started going to Chabad. He felt especially drawn to the Ethiopian Jewish issue and wrote to the Rebbe about it. The Rebbe agreed with him and appointed him to a committee to help Ethiopian Jews. This young man was introduced to many nice girls and eventually got married and had a large family. He continued his work with Ethiopian Jews while working in his new job as a shliach. With his genuine passion for yiddishkeit and his love for all humanity, he was respected and loved by his congregants and the whole community. He had a blog where he talked about life as a Torah observant Jew. Rabbis often sent their own congregants to his blog to read discussions on different topics. This young man became a spokesperson for Chabad and was very well respected and loved and lived a happy and fulfilling life all because the Rebbe agreed with him.

(But we all know the real story. The Rebbe didn’t agree with the young man, so this young man spent the rest of his life bitterly decrying all things chabad and orthodox.)

[Shmarya]

Yes. The Rebbe got caught lying. How terribly inconvenient for him.

[kosher consumer]

Let's backtrack and have you tell the world why I'm such a terrible wife. You might not like me. You might think I'm a terrible person. But why does that make me a terrible wife? Call my husband and ask him what he thinks. I thought expose was your favorite form of journalism.

[kosher consumer]

Rather, how inconvenient for you.....

[Shmarya]

You said MA doesn't follow halakha. I asked you for examples. You made the accusation. Now provide the details.

[kosher consumer]

YOu said you don't know how my husband puts up with me. I asked you for examples. You made the accusation. Now provide the details.

[Shmarya]

You're ignorant – so ignorant that you don't even realize it.

You attack other people based on rumors, you accuse of them of things (like not keeping halakha), and then you're too dishonest to give any examples or proof.

And you have a very inflated view of yourself.

[kosher consumer]

I'm still waiting for you to explain why I'm a rotten wife. You have defamed me. (I bet your fans are wondering why you won't answer. Maybe because you are the one who attacks people.)

I will email you whatever you want to know about MA. I'm not into defamation.

[Shmarya]

Such a disingenuous person!

You made a public attack against MA and now you won't (or can't) support it. And that attack of yours, based on false rumors, was the basis for my response to you.

Why are you a bad wife?

I didn't say you're a bad wife.

What I said was that you are both ignorant and arrogant and that your husband is a saint for putting up with you.

And that he certainly is.

[kosher consumer]

You aren't really saying anything about me. I"m ignorant and arrogant? That's your opinion. It makes good reading for your audience. You don't know me now. You knew me over ten years ago.

As for MA, I know that he uses a microphone on Shabbos. Now, you can tell me that it's okay because it was turned on before Shabbos, so it's not like he actually turned it on. Of course, if someone forgets to turn it on before Shabbos, one of his congregants turns it on for him. His synagogue also has an alarm system with lazer beams in the doorways. Every time a person walks in the door, he is walking through an electronic beam. Of course, being that it's his synagogue, he can do whatever he wants with his services, but I do remember him refusing to use certain readings during the high holy days because they discussed forbidden relationships and that might offend some people, so he just replaced it with something more palatable for his congregation.

I think that's good for starters.

Now it's your turn. Please, using all your experience as a husband, explain why my husband is a saint for putting up with me.

[Shmarya]

You are ignorant, that's for sure.

Electricity use on Shabbat is not a d'orita or even a d'rabbanan. Passive use – a security system, for example – is not a problem according to many poskim.

Did you know there were huge poskim – rabbis who were far greater than any rabbi you've ever known or followed – who permitted unrestrained electrical use on Shabbos and Yom Tov, as long as no cooking was done directly with the heart it generates?

There are still Orthodox synagogues today that use microphones on Shabbos based on pesak dinim from Orthodox rabbis.

You're a shoteh.

Unfortunately, you're too much of one to recognize it.

And I pity your husband.

[kosher consumer]

I guess it just depends on who you ask when it comes to halacha. I'm sure MA couldn't even care less about these things. But there is the spirit of Shabbos that can be discussed. You can leave your tv on and watch all Shabbos. You aren't going against halacha, but against the spirit of Shabbos.

I knew you'd have something to say about all of this. Well, except the part about forbidden relationships. It's a shame all that knowledge (and arrogance) is being used for mean spiritied reasons.

Again, you've yet to explain to me why you pity my husband. Is it because, K"H he's been married to me for almost 20 years? Because I've given him K"H 4 beautiful children? Because we are true partners in life, discussing and talking and communicating to make decisions for our family? Because we both volunteer for our community? Because I love and respect him? Because I don't ask for expensive gifts? Because I'm not some princess who refuses to go to work? Tell me why you pity my husband.

[seymour]

SO if kashrus is about food and nothing else, how come we are always hearing about some agency pulling or threatening to pull its hechsher for transgressions such as shiksas coming in a restaurant dressed "immodestly" or teenage boys and girls standing in the same line to buy an ice cream cone and then, heaven forfend, sitting down at the same picnic table to enjoy their treat? Such hypocrisy on the part of AI!

Oh, and this statement also misrepresents the position of the Conservative movement on halacha. Further, some of the aspects of halacha do indeed pertain to ritual (yes, there is such a thing), and other aspects concern things which are not ritual. Lighting shabbas candles, putting up mezuzahs, wearing tzitzis=ritual; respecting your parents, not causing unnecessary suffering to animals, not having sex with your neighbor's wife=non-ritual. All halacha....

Posted by: MM | May 04, 2011 at 10:42 AM

you are absolutely wrong when you say Such hypocrisy on the part of AI!

there is no hypocrisy at all since many Orthodox believe it is within halacha and acceptable practice to commit fraud, steal from goyish workers, and scam the government.

nuh so I ask you where is the hypocrisy?
And that is the reason they are against a hesher zadek, since that would apply that such behavior is not to be condoned which of cause it is and within their view of halazcha and morality

[Shmarya]

I guess it just depends on who you ask when it comes to halacha. I'm sure MA couldn't even care less about these things. But there is the spirit of Shabbos that can be discussed. You can leave your tv on and watch all Shabbos. You aren't going against halacha, but against the spirit of Shabbos.

You're ignorant.

You have no idea what you're talking about.

And you attack someone who knows far more than you do.

Why do I pity your husband?

Because he lives with you.

[masortiman]

thanks shmarya, for following this

For folks who dont know why this matters first off, lots of C jews keep kosher homes, as do ALL C shuls and other institutions. OU has said they will NOT boycott this - good, cause I suspect there are many modern O Jews who want something like this, and will accept the Magen Tzedek in the absence of something similar from the OU. There may even be secular and non jewish folks interested in this. I dont know why folks think Haredim are the target market.

[yidandahalf]

Yes! Yes! masortiman. G-d forbid they wake the fuck up and realize it's all a RACKET.

[seymour]

I dont know why folks think Haredim are the target market.

Posted by: masortiman | May 04, 2011 at 04:14 PM

of course Hechsher tzadek is not for heridien they think it is abomination and a threat to kauhrus.

Just go to VIN and see the comments about this and search for the commnets about SMR they openly say they do not care what goes on whether they workers get paid or not all they care about if it Glatt the rest is nonsense to them.

fraud not paying a working is not a problem for them. when one gets caught their is no shame in their community and the fraudster is still held in hight regard and shomer torag and mizhvas.

But god forbid their wife had a few strands of hair showing all hell can break lose

[Dovid]

The cool part about this is that the main buyers of kosher meat nationwide are actually Conservative and Traditional Jews, Secular Jews, non-Jews and many Modern Orthodox Jews who care about this issue.

Ask who sells more kosher meat in Los Angeles, Trader Joe's or the kosher butchers/markets? The same thing is replicated almost everywhere nationwide, with the exception of the small number of frum neighborhoods. My guess is the ratio is at least 5 to 1. Maybe 10 to 1.

It will be interesting to see how this plays out. Maybe, be'ezras hashem, the Aguda and all the other genovim will end up having their lunch taken away.

[seymour]

to kosher consumer

would say that a frum religious Jew who commits financial crime a non halacha following Jew? those are also commandments and halacha but seems not to be a problem for the frum and no one calls them no religious or whatever.

SMR should be like a conservative Jew to you since he committed fraud.

In addition while I am on the subject when is the last time a Conservative yeshiva was caught committing financial crimes and money blundering and scams?It seems that the conservatives are more machmer on bein adom lachavera
and the frum ignore that side of the torah as if it does not exist.

The frum are macmer like crazy when it comes to bein adom lamokom and the conservatives are not machmer but at least they abide by it and do not throw it out like the frum do when it comes stealing, fraud and other such matters

[!]

I pity you for not being a husband.

[masortiman]

"The frum are macmer like crazy when it comes to bein adom lamokom and the conservatives are not machmer but at least they abide by it and do not throw it out like the frum do when it comes stealing, fraud and other such matters "

"We are machmir on ethics" R' Brad Shavit Artson

[seymour]

sorry

my bad what I meant to say was that the conservative are machmer when it comes to ethics and maybe not crazy machmer when it comes to the nonsense of the Orthodox

you are absolutely correct

[masortiman]

no harm done - I appreciate the chance to quote one of the gedolim of my generation (whom I have the privilege of knowing personally)

[seymour]

"We are machmir on ethics" R' Brad Shavit Artson

Posted by: masortiman | May 05, 2011 at 09:09 AM

I have ben telling that to my Orthodox friends and have been thinking that even when i was a black hat boy

[ML]

kosher consumer, I'm glad you stopped digging. Not only are you completely FOS but the fact that you fail to realize it is quite amazing, frankly.