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May 08, 2011

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jay

@yechiel: I couldn't care less what you do or don't believe. I directed a comment to another poster to the effect that he had better come to terms with differences of opinion because of the futility of dialogue.

tooclose2detroit

yeah wool-i couldna said it better myself-although i did, but not quite as concise. someday, solve the mystery-why wool, why silk, why cotton-it may be obvious, but i aint so bright.

WoolSilkCotton

Yechiel,
The brain's interpretation of sound and its nuances is based in the science of audiology. Voice recognition is very much a part of that. Not accepting that as strong evidence of the speaker's identity is sheer nonsense on your part.

And getting back to what you said before:
We should accept something unproveable as true because someone else accepts it, and that person is supposedly a pretty smart guy, so you will wholly accept it and base your entire life on it? And you don't think you're wasting a good part of your life?

Yechiel

As you are talking to your mom you 'believe' it is actually her because you choose to believe so even before sending her voice to analysis. The voice is enough to serve as 'evidence' even though you have nothing tangible to prove it.
That is why I choose the word 'belief' over the word 'faith'. To me what I have to confirm my belief is sufficient.

seymour

and 'belief' does rely on evidence. if your phone rang and the caller ID showed your mothers number, and a voice sounding like hers spoke, you would BELIEVE it is your mother speaking even though you dont KNOW that it is. somebody could have called from a different number with a device that masks the callers actual number, and they may have a tape of your mother. yet after weighing the evidence, you would probably BELIEVE it is her. since no evidence exists for god, it isnt simply a belief but rather it is faith since there is no evidence. and faith is a childish concept.

Posted by: ah-pee-chorus | May 08, 2011 at 11:36 PM

another thing is that in the case of ones mother one can verify if it was ones mother. either by going to her house and asking her or maybe have a recording of the conversation and use voice analysis to see if it was her.

another words it is provable.

God is not

tooclose2detroit

Greater minds than the simple folk commenting on this site believed in what we believe and were greatly revered by the great minds of their times. Those great minds obviously grasped the depth of belief.
.

Posted by: Yechiel

Greater minds than mine also believe in christianity, hinduism, etc-what makes a mind a great mind?-the ability to understand astrophysics, perhaps?-in that case, then i would have to defer to any christian or hindu astrophysicist and join their religion-one may not accept another persons evidence, as APC, for example, doesnt accept mine to believe in Torah-thats fine-but to believe in something with NO evidence??-because some "great minds" believed in it??-i dont know how that adds up.

Jeff

Jeff:
It wasn't not personal; don't take it as such...

My point was that you're actually describing yourself.

Clear

Shucks; I was begining to embrace the theory that we evolved from monkeys...

Good thing that you didn't, because no one believes that humans evolved from monkeys.

Clear

This article comparing us to fish is a bit like me comparing my home to the White House--My house is JUST LIKE the White House, except it isn't White, it wasn't built and rebuilt after a fire, it isn't in the same style, it isn't the same size, it isn't in Washington D.C. . . .


No, it's not.

This article is about how living creatures have evolved naturally over time, and not about how changes in human knowledge of materials, engineering, and architecture have lead to the devolopment of modern housing designs.

That said, what this article is a more like - if one were to use your statement as something to go from - is that early houses (huts, for example) and modern homes share certain similarities: an entrance way, heat sources, exhaust for that heat source, sleeping areas, roofs, walls, etc. The modern houses are larger, made of different materials, use different forms of heat, have more rooms, etc. but some of the aspects of our homes originated in the very distant past, and, though changed greatly, are still with us to this day.

For the White House part of your comment, one could compare the development of the architecture of leaders' homes, from early chieftan houses, to palace architecture in Mesopotamia, to the development of mansions.

Yechiel

Oh, and Jeff, it would actually be a great disappointment to look in the mirror and see a fish... Until I am willing to accept 'reality' I will refrain from doing so.

Yechiel

Correction
It wasn't personal...

Yechiel

Jeff:
It wasn't not personal; don't take it as such...

Jeff

I think that Goebbels and Streicher would hire you much faster then they would hire someone from that paper that erased the Secretary of State's photo.

Of course - as the frum are the most wonderful people who have ever existed, anyone who dislikes your kind is an anti-Semite or a self-hating Jew.

Every comment you've left on this site, without exception, has been a textbook example of ignorance and denial. You're embarrassing yourself, but you're too stupid to realize it.

The reason the majority of commenters on this site deny G-d and his Torah is because they need evidence nearly impossible to satisfactorily provide. They choose science because it provides them with a reason to accept it 'lack of evidence' of sorts and some 'evidence' that satisfies their level of comprehension.
Belief goes way beyond the need for evidence. Whatever evidence there may exist is just to be used as a tool against those who attempt to disqualify our belief system. For a true believer evidence is secondary and a luxury.
Greater minds than the simple folk commenting on this site believed in what we believe and were greatly revered by the great minds of their times. Those great minds obviously grasped the depth of belief.
Understanding the essence of belief, is crucial to all arguments about it. Once grokked, one has a much broader view than the sorry beings confined to their human limitations.

The irony is almost beyond belief. I'd tell you to look in the mirror, but you're incapable of that level of introspection.

Jeff

Please.

Science can and does explain consciousness.

What Y-O-U cannot do is explain away science and fact.

Posted by: Shmarya | May 08, 2011 at 12:42 AM

Shmarya, he's a lunatic. He's the main reason I don't come around as much any more. I wish you'd get rid of him.

Adam Neira

To All,

It was prophesied many moons ago that science and faith would eventually unite and not forever be bitter bedfellows.

That time is upon us.

Yechiel

APC
You are in essence saying precisely what I am saying:
Zeh shtuyot v'zeh shtusim... 'theories' - that is all.
I am indeed a happy man. I wallow not in agony over my past affiliation... (or is it over the misdeeds of the frumme?)

Yechiel

tooclose2detroit
That second post is a riot.

Yechiel

tooclose2detroit
The reason the majority of commenters on this site deny G-d and his Torah is because they need evidence nearly impossible to satisfactorily provide. They choose science because it provides them with a reason to accept it 'lack of evidence' of sorts and some 'evidence' that satisfies their level of comprehension.
Belief goes way beyond the need for evidence. Whatever evidence there may exist is just to be used as a tool against those who attempt to disqualify our belief system. For a true believer evidence is secondary and a luxury.
Greater minds than the simple folk commenting on this site believed in what we believe and were greatly revered by the great minds of their times. Those great minds obviously grasped the depth of belief.
Understanding the essence of belief, is crucial to all arguments about it. Once grokked, one has a much broader view than the sorry beings confined to their human limitations.

ah-pee-chorus

Shucks; I was begining to embrace the theory that we evolved from monkeys...

Posted by: Yechiel


where did you learn this theory ? is that a yeshivish theory ? because it certainly isnt a part of the theory of evolution. if
ignorance is bliss you must be a very happy man.

anon aussie

G'day from down under

http://www.theage.com.au/world/paper-erases-clinton-from-history-20110509-1ef5d.html

ah-pee-chorus

There is no evidence of a deity either. The existence of such is solely a matter of belief.
Principals based on belief need no supporting evidence. Posted by: Yechiel

your first sentence is absolutely true.
the second sentence is partly true, except that you should have used the word 'faith' which means belief absent evidence, instead of the word 'belief'.
and the third sentence is an opinion. and a pretty silly one. it would mean that faith that there is a god is as valid as my faith that the earth is being spun on its axis by big purple pigs who refuse to be photographed, and that i can cure most diseases by thinking of grass growing upside down. in fact they do all have the same level of believability i.e. none, but i doubt thats what you intended.

and 'belief' does rely on evidence. if your phone rang and the caller ID showed your mothers number, and a voice sounding like hers spoke, you would BELIEVE it is your mother speaking even though you dont KNOW that it is. somebody could have called from a different number with a device that masks the callers actual number, and they may have a tape of your mother. yet after weighing the evidence, you would probably BELIEVE it is her. since no evidence exists for god, it isnt simply a belief but rather it is faith since there is no evidence. and faith is a childish concept.

tooclose2detroit

Shucks; I was begining to embrace the theory that we evolved from monkeys...

Posted by: Yechiel | May 08, 2011 at 10:00 AM

there are some places that convince me that monkeys have evolved from humans.

tooclose2detroit

Science is only as good as the evidence it can provide. The Torah is a matter of belief. Those that adhere to it need no evidence to prove its validity. There is no evidence of a deity either. The existence of such is solely a matter of belief.
Yechiel
Yechiel-I dig the quote from Einstein-but,how can one accept God or Torah without any evidence?-thats like my telling you to believe that I am the messiah-dont ask for any evidence-just accept it-but, I would venture to guess that you wouldnt?-why the heck not?-i mean, evidence means nothing-and, because an entire community believes in it??-with your attitude, there would never have been an Abraham-hell, he lived with idol worshipers, didnt buy it, and split-according to your logic, he just shoulda stayed, kuz his community believed in it, and you shouldnt look for evidence---cmon dude-that aint gonna work.Shouldnt take long to "process" these thoughts.

Yechiel

Seymour:
Science is only as good as the evidence it can provide. The Torah is a matter of belief. Those that adhere to it need no evidence to prove its validity. There is no evidence of a deity either. The existence of such is solely a matter of belief.
Principals based on belief need no supporting evidence. I know it's too difficult for some to process such ideas...

You are wrongfully expecting the abandonment of an entire belief system you do not comprehend, embraced by an entire community. Why is it nearly a matter of life and death to you that we should accept the scientific version of creation and other worldly occurrences (or lack thereof...)? We are who we are; just live with it.

A great friend sent me this quote by Einstein:
"If you judge a fish by its ability to climb a tree, it will live its whole life believing that it is stupid."
There is some depth to this. Process it slowly and you may get my drift.

Yechiel

Jay:
Why is it a matter of life and death that we accept your version of anything?

jay

@Jancsipista: When people are raised to embrace dogma and to reject any modification of that dogma, they undoubtedly will dismiss any discipline that modifies its position based on new evidence. So don't expect rational responses from irrational people.

jancsipista

as i said before theese mindless frummies not all i may say so, are nothing but pompous asses know it all absolute idiots

seymour

Science is forever evolving and new discoveries disprove earlier assumptions.


what is amazing is that people will doubt certain scientific fact when there eis vast amount of evidence.

But be absolute certain of the Torah and or the interpretation of the torah as they see it when there is zero evidence to back it up.

ah-pee-chorus

Science is forever evolving and new discoveries disprove earlier assumptions.

its always amusing when someone who accepts
the torah as containing absolute truths tries to dismiss science as being unreliable with ignorant statements such as this.
do you think the scientific understanding that human gestation is roughly 40 weeks will be disproven? will science one day say that gravity doesnt exist? will we one day realize that disease is NOT spread by germs? will further study teach us that the earth is the center of our solar system?
can you provide an example of what youre referring to? there are times when hypotheses are offered and after much analysis and experimentation are shown to be false. that is how a search for truth works. but major scientific discoveries which have undergone years and years of observational testing, have been confirmed through many completely different areas of study,as is the case with evolution, such as paleontology, embryology, geology, comparative anatomy and genetics, each arriving at the same "tree" of common descent , have as much chance of being discarded as the heliocentric model of the universe.
on the other hand, the source for information which you DO accept as inerrant said the sun rotated above the earth, with the moon as its light giving partner. it says a girl cant get pregnant till shes 12 and one day. it claims there are animals which appear spontaneously, and that there was a global flood covering everything. none of this was, is, or could possibly be true. but you keep lecturing the rest of us about science. its a riot.

Deremes

I think that Goebbels and Streicher would hire you much faster then they would hire someone from that paper that erased the Secretary of State's photo.

WoolSilkCotton

There are yiddish equivalents nowadays that follow in the spirit of Pravda or Der Sturmer, like that paper that erased the Secretary of State's photo. Pick one up at your local newsstand.

Look inside your toilet, Deremes, and you will see a likeness of the frumma. Then don't forget to flush.

Yechiel

Deremes: ;-)

Deremes

"The frumma are at the same evolutionary step as the monkeys. If you visit the ape habitat at any zoo, you see the males sitting separately, and the biggest one sits by himself. The 'children' run around like wild frumma. Occasionally, fights break out, but they quickly stop. The majority just hang around all day, waiting for handouts from the one who also has to clean up after them.
And the smell is exactly the same.

Posted by: WoolSilkCotton | May 08, 2011 at 11:22 AM"


It would be nice if you can draw us a Cartoon of your description on the frumma.

Also, Do you happen to know were i can get Der Stuermer?

Yechiel

S eymour:
Science has its place in this world. Thanks to the scientific community we have many necessities as well as luxuries. However, no human is without fault.
I do not need to accept everything science presents me as the only plausible option. Science is forever evolving and new discoveries disprove earlier assumptions.
So yes, I go to the doctor and take the medication because I know that such has proven effective for others. I drive the vehicles science has provided because it actually works. But to blindly believe science in the name of 'open mindedness' is definitely absurd.
A friend recently coined a phrase: "narrow minded in the name of being open minded".

seymour

Adam, you sound as if you run a scam website or a cult.

Posted by: jay | May 08, 2011 at 05:25 AM

go to hos web site

he promises to open your eyes and reveal the world secrets of course if you loin him but offers zilch of information

seymour

Adam, you sound as if you run a scam website or a cult.

Posted by: jay | May 08, 2011 at 05:25 AM

go to hos web site

he promises to open your eyes and reveal the world secrets of course if you loin him but offres zilch of imformation

seymour

Shucks; I was begining to embrace the theory that we evolved from monkeys...

Posted by: Yechiel | May 08, 2011 at 10:00 AM

if you do not belive in scince and evocation I suggest next time you get sick go to a rebbie and pray or sacrifice a lamb to get cured instead of going to a doctor

seymour

Adam, you sound as if you run a scam website or a cult.

Posted by: jay | May 08, 2011 at 05:25 AM

actually he sounds just like the guys from the forum or est promising the world giving no details unless you join up for their courses

Yochanan Lavie

WSC: They also revere the old silverbacks.

WoolSilkCotton

The frumma are at the same evolutionary step as the monkeys. If you visit the ape habitat at any zoo, you see the males sitting separately, and the biggest one sits by himself. The 'children' run around like wild frumma. Occasionally, fights break out, but they quickly stop. The majority just hang around all day, waiting for handouts from the one who also has to clean up after them.
And the smell is exactly the same.

jay

No one in that article stated that people are fish. They simply said that we share a similar embryonic developmental pathway.

Yechiel

Shucks; I was begining to embrace the theory that we evolved from monkeys...

Michelle

B"H

This article comparing us to fish is a bit like me comparing my home to the White House--My house is JUST LIKE the White House, except it isn't White, it wasn't built and rebuilt after a fire, it isn't in the same style, it isn't the same size, it isn't in Washington D.C. . . .

Loshon Hora

Shtuyot or call it shtusim.

seymour

Did women study Talmud in the womb also? Why else would they also have the philtrum?

Posted by: Baruch | May 08, 2011 at 07:27 AM

and all gentiles

Yochanan Lavie

Apologies to Three Dog Night:

Shmarya was a blogger
Was a good friend of mine
I never agreed with every word he said
But I love to hear him whine
And he always gives the bad guys a hard time

Singin'
{Refrain}
Oy to the world
All the Goys and Jews, nu
Oy to the fishes from whom we've come to be
Oy to you and me

If I were the King of the world
Tell you what I'd do
I'd throw away the fundamentalist churls
And spread peace and love to you

Sing it now
{Refrain}

You know I hate Bin Laden
They shot him with a gun
I'm still a believer, but don't think He's a deceiver
And I'm not a fundamentalist one
The evidence [of evolution] is not just for fun

{Refrain repeatedly}


jay

The ridge that runs along the length of our palate (the roof of the mouth) is also because of the fusion of two embryonic plates. Cleft palate and lip result from incomplete fusion of either palate or lip, respectively. I wonder if talmudists would claim that a cleft lip is a result of an abusive angel who hits the baby too hard.

Justin Time

Re. Adam Neira. He may well run a cult, but he really does believe he is Moshiach. Really. If his posts on Failed Messiah are to believed, he's planning to descend on Jerusalem in the next week or so. Should be fun. I'm not sure whether he's visited before and is aware of how many would-be saviours are roaming the streets already. I'm hoping for streaming webcam coverage of his adventures.

Baruch

Did women study Talmud in the womb also? Why else would they also have the philtrum?

avakesh

Actually humans descend from motorcycles. Notice the arms on the sides, sleek body and the motor in the chest and you will be convinced.

Yochanan Lavie

Jews are descended from gefilte fish.

jay

Adam, you sound as if you run a scam website or a cult.

A. Nuran

Adam, "atheistic evolution" is the foundation of all modern biology. It has discovered a hell of a lot about all aspects of consciousness. Neurology, biochemistry, psychology, neuroanatomy, functions of the various parts of the brain, developmental psych. You name it.

Meanwhile religion has discovered the thin end of bugger all. Oh, there are lots of loud, bombastic pronouncements delivered with death threats. Nothing falsifiable. Nothing predictive. Nothing that comes within a hundred miles of science.

And you're still a coward, still a blowhard, still a delusional crank and still a liar. Let's see that CV. Those papers. Your citations. Anything but that tired old crap about Satanic Abuse with extra helpings of "Repressed Memory Syndrome".

Adam Neira

To OMG,

Can't be bothered right now debating with you. I am not avoiding the issue. To explain what I am aware of would take a long, long time. Captain Cook returning from his voyages of discovery could not just sit in an inn and explain everything over a couple of ales in ten minutes to all and sundry.

Re. Mother's Day, go to this from Mr. T in 19884..."Treat your mother right" Classic !

www.youtube.com/watch?v=7_rBidCkJxo

It's good to have a laugh.

OMG

Posted by: Adam Neira | May 08, 2011 at 01:41 AM “Shmarya and OMG, do you believe in the Thirteen Articles of Faith or are you Jewish-lite ?”

It is irrelevant what I belief in, I am not debating any points with you, as far as I am concerned you never laid out your views. You always fall back to the same response, how much are you willing to spend. Frankly, not even a penny, I am not interested in your view. Billions of people have “their” view, and I am not running around trying to ascertain who is on the right path. In the mean time as I said before, you always say the same BS, pay me, I am willing to debate you for hours, but always you have the same condition “Show Me the Money”. We are sick and tried to read the same nonsense repeatedly. I would rather give my money to Reverend Sun Myung Moon, at least with him I could get me a second wife, oh God, who needs another one, honey I love you, happy mother’s day.

Adam Neira

To Shmarya and OMG,

Your comments may lead me to update my website where I will be able to present my findings on this issue. How much will you pay for the secrets of the universe ? Or maybe I will just teach people to trust my judgments rather than having to explain every decision. However because I believe the ultimate model for the world is one of Messianic Anarchism, i.e. We will not need laws as people will behave correctly, I will probaly document everything. It is just that at the moment I am quite busy, redeeming dark energies etc.

I am not being trite, crazy or evasive here. Again, I am quite happy to detail my findings, but you will have to accept unpalatable truths about yourselves and others. Courage in facing the truth is extremely rare in human beings. People will travel the world, make billions and build empires before they will embark on the journey of truth. From mid 1995 to Feb. 2nd 1998 I did just that. I am proud of my courage. I am not interested in throwing pearls before swine either. Not for a minute am I suggesting certain people are swine. It is just that some people have to heed the wisdom of a higher authority for their own good. Just as there is a hierarchy of money, power and military might on the Planet so there is a hierarchy of wisdom.

People hate the idea that someone may know more than them. Ego-defences are vital but limiting when they block curiosity and new information. Or perhaps it is G-d's plan that certain people will know more than others and a certain command and control structure is required. Fascinating stuff !

Shmarya and OMG, do you believe in the Thirteen Articles of Faith or are you Jewish-lite ?

OMG

Posted by: Adam Neira | May 08, 2011 at 12:38 AM

I noticed your modus operandi; you always throw out a cluster bomb, but when it comes to defend your POV, you always fail to show up, with the same excuses, I will meet you, blah blah blah.

Shmarya

Please.

Science can and does explain consciousness.

What Y-O-U cannot do is explain away science and fact.

Adam Neira

To ah-pee-chorus,

Please provide your explanation. Put your money where your mouth is. I will be happy to sit with you in the right setting with an audience gathered to score the merits of our presentations on the issue. The rules are : No slander, abuse or dummy spitting. We can both bring witnesses, documents, diaries and scientific literature. I know that people can explode when their worldview is challenged. Denial smashing is dangerous work. Truth is so scary for some people. That is why no-one really wanted to share what was going on in Moses's mind. Many sniped at him but few cared to shoulder the burden of leadership.

I am comforted in the saying from a wise sage "It doesn't matter what you think, we will all know the truth and what is correct in the end !"

Time and place please Mr.APC...

P.S. Are you Shmarya’s evil twin ?

ah-pee-chorus

: Dr. Dave -

in that case, WELL DONE. it is impressive.

ah-pee-chorus

thanks shmarya and seymour!! this is amazing.

Dr. Dave

APC -

I just like saying the phrase: ontogeny recapitulates phylogeny and use it at every opportunity!

ah-pee-chorus

The thing that strident atheistic evolutionist cannot explain is consciousness.Posted by: Adam Neira.

wrong, adam. there is no difficulty explaining it whatsoever. and nobody says its due to "chance". but i'm sure you will claim to be able to prove otherwise if someone pays you or gives you 8 hours to do so. spare me.

ah-pee-chorus

The theory of ontogeny recapitulating phylogeny has been discarded!

Posted by: Dr. Dave

thats right dave, but first of all you give the impression that this article is an example of ontogeny recapitulates phylogeny. it is not.
also, you make it sound as if ORP was widely accepted at some time. it was proposed in the early 1800s and has long since been rejected. that theory , ORP , would say that an organism’s development will take it through each of the adult stages of its evolutionary history, or its phylogeny since they thought evolution was just the adding of new steps after its ancestors last step of development.
however the knowledge(theory) that we can learn phylogeny from an embryos development , which is what is being displayed here, is well accepted and used.

Adam Neira

To Yosel,

Very good !

Here's a taste of Israeli humour under fire circa March 24th, 2011 :

A young man reports into a Tel Aviv hospital and says, "Please treat me - I'm suffering from shell shock."

The nurse at the admissions desk asks for his ID, looks at it, and says, "Hey, you live here in Tel Aviv ! What kind of shell shock are you talking about? There are no rocket attacks here."

"You don't understand," pleads the young man. "My mother-in-law from Ashdod just called. She's coming to stay with us for a month..."

coolchassid

The Arizal teaches that most tzaddikim reincarnate into fish

yosel

Its true and interesting. My Shveeher (mother in law) takeh looks and acts like a combination of a Shark and a Piranha.

Yoel Mechanic

For anyone who has studied (only, perhaps) Gemorah, the explanation therein makes total sense. But the evolutionary one sounds so far-fetched. What kind of crazy world is this? Anyway, what I would like to hear from is a *real* historian as to what sort of tone the Gemorah meant on this issue. Today would everyone say this idea of the angel pressing on the upper lip is meant as a factual explanation? Or it is a midrash to teach a homiletical lesson. Or is it (and I hear this all the time) "take it however you want"

Yukel

Oh how sad. Its obvious that there are many bored people out there.

Dr. Dave

The theory of ontogeny recapitulating phylogeny has been discarded!

Adam Neira

The thing that strident atheistic evolutionist cannot explain is consciousness. There have been many theories posited regarding the nature of consciousness. Think subsets like at school. G-d is the superset. Human beings are a subset. (a) The reductionist secular says that it is a result of pure chance. "Chance" comes from old French which means to "fall from the sky" !!! (b) Julian Jaynes in "The Evolution of Consciousness and the Breakdown of the Bi-Cameral Mind" suggest a similar theory. (c) Terence McKenna in "Food of the G-ds" raises the idea of magic mushrooms being consumed on the plains of Africa in early hominid times. The eating of which boosted visual acuity and thus advantaged one group over the other. (d) Arthur C. Clarke/Kubrik “2001 – A Space Odyssey” and the obelisk, and Daniken etc. suggested alien visitation as the catalyst.

I studied all these issues for many years from 1981 to 1998. I am extremely confident of my conclusion on this subject.

i.e. There is a G-d and he does intervene in the affairs of humankind. As at May 8th, 2011 he also wants a certain divinely mandated command and control structure to be heeded.

The comments to this entry are closed.

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