Agudath Israel Of America Says You Have To Ask A Rabbi Before You Can Call The Police On A Child Molester

Except in cases where the abuser is caught red handed, Agudah says you should ask a senior rabbi with experience in these issues and, even better, you should ask a full beit din (religious court) made up of senior rabbis with experience in these issues. This means Agudah is advocating for you to violate mandatory reporting laws in many states, and it is advocating turning over the lives of abused children to rabbis who have often covered up for abusers.

Agudath Israel of America (often called Agudah for short) is the umbrella organization of the vast majority of ultra-Orthodox Jews in the United States.

The summation of Agudah's position is given at approximately 1:02 of the recording, followed by some brief words from Rabbi David Zwiebel, Agudah's executive vice president. Zwiebel tries to say that there are different secular standards for reporting sexual abuse of minors, and implies that this somehow justifies Agudah's stand. But the law is clear and Agudah is advocating violating it.

Zwiebel is an attorney, so he can't claim to be unfamiliar with the implications of his words or the words that preceded his.

Just before Zwiebel speaks, Rabbi Gottesman takes several brief questions. The first questioner asks what should be done if a state's mandatory reporting law mandates reporting a particular case to police or child protection services but Jewish law (as understood by the rabbi asked or as explained by a published rabbinic ruling) does not. Rabbi Gottesman tells the questioner that a rabbi should be consulted to determine if the mandatory reporter must "expose yourself to possible legal ramifications under the Mandated Reporting Act."

This audio file was recorded this week at a Agudath Israel conference.

Please click the gray bar to listen.

If no gray bar or media player appears on your screen, please right click the link below and choose either to download the audio file or open it in another window or tab. If you choose the latter, it should play there.

Download Abuse Issues and Reporting - Halachik and Legal Overview with Rabbi Sh Gottesman and

 

Comments

[The Law]

They should really read: Steven Oppenheimer, D.D.S., Confronting Child Abuse, Journal of Halacha and Contemporary Society, Fall 2002.
and become informed...

[David]

Wrong. If a child has been molested or there have been other crimes you go straight to the police. That's their job.

[Deremes]

Like anything else in Jewish life when something comes up which is a shaile you got to ask a rav.
And something that involves that a Jew can end up in prison,then for sure you need to ask a rav that is very well learned.
I know of a case where two rabaonim said that its allowed to inform on a particular individual about sexual abuse. If a rav said yes then so be it. But you cant do it on your own.

I don't understand how the law works or do i understand the true meaning of freedom of religion.
If a religion says and in this case its the Jewish religion that its not allowed to inform on another Jew,can the government say that you most inform?

[ah-pee-chorus]

: Deremes -

try to use your head for something other than a hat rack. if i had a congregation of believers whose religion said they must attack random strangers on the street with bats, would the law protect them from prosecution based on their freedom of religion? THINK ON YOUR OWN!!

[David]

If a religion says and in this case its the Jewish religion that its not allowed to inform on another Jew,can the government say that you most inform?

Posted by: Deremes | May 18, 2011 at 04:19 PM

"Freedom of religion" does not extend to the point where it violates other laws. So, if a religion required human sacrifice, then that part of religious practice which was against the law would be prohibited, although the practitioners could continue to believe what they wanted.

If, as you claim, Judaism prohibits informing on another Jew (and I don't accept that it does) then if there were state laws requiring mandatory reporting of certain sexual offences, then one would be breaking the law for not reporting these offences, despite what you claim to be the religious belief. Even if there were no mandatory laws for reporting other crimes, you would be still morally wrong not to report them and because this attitude allows frumma crooks to thrive, it gives all Jews a bad name and leads to antisemitism.

[jancsipista]

deremes- those who have no self confidence rely on others to make decisions for them i call them dummies, also in cases of molestation is it obvious no rebbi wants his own to be outed as a molester so you see,its like asking the wolf to look after the sheep no person worth his salt would go to a rabbi , besides i consider rabbi or ruvs self serving whatever makes them look good that is what they will do.

[Dereme]

Is there a law that requires to inform if i know someone is defrauding people?

[Deremes]

ah-pee-chorus:try to use your head for something other than your tush.

I wasn't talking about the molester.Read again

[Jewdo]

Dereme, depends on who you are.

[jancsipista]

can someone tell me how many cases there are when the rabbis let the molested go to the authorities, please does someone know the answer to my question?

[David]

Is there a law that requires to inform if i know someone is defrauding people?

Posted by: Dereme | May 18, 2011 at 04:35 PM

In certain positions you would have a legal obligation to do so.

Apart from that, are you such an automaton that after all your years of "religious" education you cannot work out what is the correct thing to do in that situation?

[jj]

just curious . willl agudah. come out with a public list of which rabbis and batei dinim which are educated enough in this area of molestation. i bet not because they simply dont exist

[seymour]

can someone tell me how many cases there are when the rabbis let the molested go to the authorities, please does someone know the answer to my question?

Posted by: jancsipista | May 18, 2011 at 04:50 PM

let me guess -120

that would include how many they said can go to the police I would say zero. since nobody knows of any case.

the negative is all the time they the beis din have harassed threatened the
victims even when there where many complaints against that person

[seymour]

just curious . willl agudah. come out with a public list of which rabbis and batei dinim which are educated enough in this area of molestation. i bet not because they simply dont exist

Posted by: jj | May 18, 2011 at 05:13 PM

before they do that they need to show the world that they have told someone to report a molester to the police.
hey Agudath Israel Of America please show us your sincerity and tell us with facts and proof (it this correct)how many cases you turned over to the police and back up from a victim and prosecutor.

How can anybody take them seriously with their past of coverups and victimizing the victim.

remember mondrowitz, how many families where ruined and beis dein had many complaints and all they did is protect momdrowitz and ger whisked him away to isreal when it looked like he was going to get arrested.
they have proven over and over again they have zero credibility regarding this issue.

[jancsipista]

seymour- please tell shamrya that you give him permission to give me youre email address thanks

[Western Jew]

Can we call the pope too? How about Oprah? Maybe we can call the rabbi who was the molseter if that is the case...

[ah-pee-chorus]

: Deremes - i know exactly what you were talking about and i gave you a mashal hoping you would figure out from it that freedom of religion doesnt extend to allowing people to break the law. and since there are laws regarding who must report suspected and kal v'chomer known child abuse, those laws apply no matter which religion you believe in.

[seymour]

Deremes - i know exactly what you were talking about and i gave you a mashal hoping you would figure out from it that freedom of religion doesnt extend to allowing people to break the law. and since there are laws regarding who must report suspected and kal v'chomer known child abuse, those laws apply no matter which religion you believe in.

Posted by: ah-pee-chorus | May 18, 2011 at 05:40 PM

in addition the mosser halachcha has been misused to protect criminals and that was never the intent of the halacha.

[ah-pee-chorus]

seymour - youre 100% right. it is now used NOT because of fear of how the accused will be treated, but rather out of fear that the rest of the world will find out whats going on.

[jj]

can we also call the vadd hatznius of willi to report such cases. how about edgar gluck. how about rabbi neiderman?

[steve]

In 2007 the rabbis of Baltimore issued a mea culpa. They correctly pointed out that sexual abusers have the same Halachic status as a Rodef. A Rodef is a pursuer where all means may be used to bring him to justice. As such it was clearly stated and widely accepted by virtually all Poskim that one may immediately report cases of abuse to the authorities. As they further pointed out the authorities are the best equipped to deal with and investigate claims of abuse.

In 2011, the Agudath Israel, instead of following suit and issuing a similar letter as the Baltimore rabbonim, are stubbornly omdim b'mirdam! They do not want to give up control! They say "go to the rabbis first." Why? Do they know how to examine forensic evidence? So that they can tell a victim that he is a liar to his face? If the accuser is fabricating and is looking to destroy someone, he will not be going to his rabbi to ask permission. He will be going straight to the police regardless. So who are they looking to protect?

Obviously they are looking to uphold the status quo of the last 50 years or so where hardly any of these cases ended up with the authorities. How many molesters have ever been turned over by any rabbi? The answer is ZERO! Until Yudi Kolko's arrest in 2006, there were zero arrests in NYC in the Orthodox community for child sexual abuse for at least five years prior. By holding this sham of a halacha conference, the Agudah is calling for a return to the glory days of old. CHADEISH YAMEINU K'KEIDEM! Bring back the days of intimidation, harrassment, and stifling of victims. Bring us back to the days where we send serial child molesters to Ohel for "therapy". Bring us back to the days where sham batei dinim, like the one who handled Yudi's case in the '80's, were given the supreme power to permanently muzzle the victims and their families. When will they ever understand that batei dinim do not have the power or ability to rule on dinei nefashos today. They have no right to tell victims when to go to the police. The victims have an obligation to themselves, to the community, to the Torah and to the law of the land, to go directly to the police. The rabbis or batei dinim are not detectives or psychologists. Let them state the halacha clearly and unequivocally for all to hear: Child molesters are rodfim that must be turned into the police. When will they ever learn? How many more suicides, broken lives, broken families, broken dreams, OTD kids will it take for them to wake up. L'maan Hashem, how many more victims must fall to these evil sexual predators in our midst?

These rabbis want to bring us back to the days of Sodom where such despicable and unimaginable acts on children were acceptable and where the justice system vilified the victims. Kisdom Hayeenu K'Amora Daminu! It's about time the Ketzinei Sodom of our time, the leaders of Agudath Israel, is finally replaced with true rabbonim that understand the devastation that this plague has wrought on our community. Rabbonim that understand the depravity of the crime of sexually abusing a child. Rabbonim that understand the lifelong trauma and effects of such acts on their victims. Rabbonim that understand that a man who molests a child is no better than a terrorist that must be removed from society. It's time for the old guard to give way to some new faces who perhaps can breathe some fresh air into our plagued communities. This Agudah "leadership" under R' CD Zwiebel and its Moetzes needs to go!

[Bracha]

Deremes, As a nurse, I am a mandated reporter in NY. That means that I am obligated by law to report any REASONABLE SUSPICION of abuse (sexual, physical, neglect, emotional, financial - there are many kinds of abuse). This means that I have a positive duty to make this report - either through my facility's system or directly to the state authorities. If I fail to do so, I am LEGALLY CULPABLE, can be prosecuted, etc. I also risk losing the nursing license that I worked so hard to get and which helps to feed my family. Furthermore, reporting to my employer or another body (e.g. a beis din) is not sufficient if I have a reasonable cause to believe that they will not report it to the proper state authorities. So, if I defer the reporting to a beis din, because they say they will investigate and report it if reporting is warranted, I can be arrested and charged for neglect of the minor or for complicity in the abuse (as I had reason to suspect it was going on and reported it to a body with a known track record of failing to report). Your freedom of religion (and mine) stops at the end of our noses. If our actions violate the law of the land, we can, and should be prosecuted. Especially when the wellbeing of a vulnerable individual (minor, elderly, disabled) is concerned.

[OMG]

Posted by: Deremes | May 18, 2011 at 04:19 PM

If you are a person who falls under the report laws than, you must report, and my view is that if a Rabbi precludes the victim from reporting and after that fact this molester molested again the Rabbi should sit in jail as much as the molester as an accessory.

[Adam Neira]

Under the a divinely mandated Messianic justice system this is how I would deal with the issue of child sexual abuse.

It would be possible to institute a new legal system whereby every adult in a nation would be informed of the punishments for the crimes of child sexual abuse, murder, rape and terrorism. A period of twelve months of advertising could be put in place so that everyone would know of the new laws. Then after that date there would be no possible excuse for ignorance of the consequences of the actions of certain perpetrators. Past offences would need to be dealt with in other ways. An amnesty is a suggestion. The execution of correct jurisprudence is linked to spiritual, sexual, social, emotional and psychological healing and redemption. If this plan was carried out there would be a seismic shift in the wellbeing of the constituent population.

The hierarchy of justice would be : Moshiach; the Sanhedrin and the Lower Courts. Suspected cases could be investigated by correctly trained people. In this day and age of DNA evidence and with advanced training of investigators and judges, the chance of incorrect convictions being reached would also be reduced.

Very simple. Rapid, swift, effective justice. Zero tolerance for cases of child sexual abuse. The death penalty to be applied.

I'm trying to make the world as safe as possible before I have children but when I have a child if someone G-d forbid sexually abused them the perpetrator would need to be executed.

[Shlomo]

Steve thank you for such a well written post If only the people that should read it will see it

[steve]

Thanks Shlomo.

[Jeff]

Like anything else in Jewish life when something comes up which is a shaile you got to ask a rav.

I don't understand it. They spend their entire lives studying the decisions of the rabbis of the past 2,000 years - yet they can't seem to process any of it and apply it their lives. "Rebbe, should I read this book?" "Rebbe, may I see this movie?" "Rebbe, is it all right for me to go the bathroom?"

Yet despite this state of utter dependence, they can't stop telling us how wonderful their lives are. Do they have to get the rebbe's permission for that as well?

[steve]

It's about time the Brooklyn DA and the legal authorities of other towns start arresting people for obstruction of justice. These cases need to be prosecuted and these enablers need to be brought to justice. They need to learn from the Ocean County prosecutor who indicted Shaul Luban for texting hundreds of people asking them to intimidate a victim and his family.

[OMG]

Posted by: steve | May 18, 2011 at 05:56 PM
Your post, is a must read by every adult in the religious community.

[steve]

SOME OF THE APP COMMENTS TO THE YOSSI KOLKO STORY:

From Commonsenseman:

"What kind of creature defends an animal like this in court ? This whole community needs to be investigated. Can you imagine the public outrage if they found out any other group was running a shadow system of government and justice ? Stop the double standard here because everyone is afraid of being politically incorrect. Our country , our rules . Not the beis din."

From Center of the Road:

"I wasn't aware that we had "parallel justice systems" in the USA.
I am glad that this "alleged" pedophile is being tried in a real court, not the "parallel justice" rabbinical council though."

From Totalzap:

Defense attorney Michael E. Wilbert and the Bein Din; I find the covering up of this issue and protecting this monster to be deplorable. I hope if this happens to one of your children your tune would change.

[Moshe aron Kestenbaum,Williamsburg ODA]

I bet you that rabbi zwiebel or rabbi Gottesman would be the first to report if a molestor touched their kids. its very easy to give advise when your disconected from the real world, Its another thing to live thru it and practise it when you live in pain and no rabbi gives a dam shit. I wonder if the agudah would ever give a heter to report a molester, they never gave a heter till now, why would they in the future. Why dont they relize that with menuvalim there is only none address and thats the POLICE DEPARTMENT.

[steve]

OMG,

Thanks for your kind words. These buffoons who claim they know how to interpret halacha, need to be exposed once and for all.

[seymour]

steve

If the accuser is fabricating and is looking to destroy someone, he will not be going to his rabbi to ask permission. He will be going straight to the police regardless. So who are they looking to protect?

excellent point

[Yissy-Ca]

I wish Steven Colbert would pick up on THIS.

[steve]

Thanks Seymour.

In the Gemara Maseches Bechoros 36b, a rabbi was questioned for inspecting a Bechor kosher animal for blemishes on behalf of a non-Kohen. Their was an edict at the time that these bechoros should only be inspected on behalf of a Kohen because the yisraelim were suspected of stealing what rightfully belonged to a Kohen. Only blemished bechoros are permitted for consumption and they are to be given to Kohanim. The rabbi defended his actions by stating that this particular Bechor had a blemish that was as clear as day. If the non-Kohen intended to steal it, he would not be running to a rabbi to get a heter that it's blemished. It's ludicrous to suggest that he cares about the honor of a rabbi but doesn't care about committing theft! Today the Agudah seems to think that a vicious fabricator who is looking to destroy another human being, will worry about the honor of the rabbis and the batei dinim and go to them instead of the police. They must have skipped this blat, or they haven't gotten up to it in Daf Yomi.

[seymour]

someone should talk to south park

they did a great show about the churches coverup of child abuse

they will have a blast with these idiots

[seymour]

the bottom line is the herdiem or some of them pick and choose to accommodate
there needs or perversions

exactly what they accuse the conservative and reform to do

[Dr. Dave]

So the conversation could go something like this:

Rabbi. May I halachically report you to the police for molesting little boys in the mikva?

No you may not. You would be a moser and that is a terrible sin!!!

[Vicki Polin]

Agudath Israel is breaking the law of the land. I personally believe criminal charges should be brought up against them.

[Adam Neira]

To FATOBE,

Satanic child abuse practises have taken place in many communities around the world. Thank G-d it is possible to redeem, i.e. counter-balance the most evil of energies. In all darkness there is light. All behaviour is a result of mindset and setting. Great leaders work on changing settings and mindsets. It is possible with the right modalities in place to turn a serial murderer into a doting grandfather.

[Adam Neira]

To The Law,

Other good books on this subject are :

"Trauma and Recovery" by Judith Lewis Herman.

"Too Scared to Cry" by Lenore Terr

"The Assault on Truth" by Jeffrey Moussaieff Masson

"Thou shalt not be Aware" by Alice Miller

I read all of these back plus many others on CSA in the mid 1990's. Interestingly on the world radar screen at the moment the DSK case has stirred up a lot of things. G-d has a plan for the world.

P.S. People hated Moses at first because he told the truth.

[ah-pee-chorus]

@ steve | May 18, 2011 at 05:56 PM-

great post....

[Charlie Hall]

If a mandated reporter goes to a beit din and is ordered not to report, the beit din can be prosecuted.

Any such beit din SHOULD be prosecuted.

[shmuel]

1. Agree that the Nogooda leadership ought to be prosecuted for urging citizens to fail to comply with the law of the land.
2. At no time should a victim of sex abuse go to any rabbi or bes din. The only proper authorities are, and always were, and always will be, the police and the DA.
3. Rabbis are completely, utterly, irreversibly unable and incompetent to conduct a proper investigation in this sphere. Fifty years of covering up for their own proves it beyond any doubt.
4. Just to rid us of these scoundrels, I suggest one victim go to a beis din, receive instruction to drop the case, and then immediately provide names of every rabbi who told him that to the DA for prosecution. It's time to start throwing these rabbinical clowns in jail for a few years.
5. Just to be clear: IGNORE NOGOODA ISRAEL OF AMERICA.

[David]

In the just ended Agudah conference it was announced that in all cases of alleged child molestation and abuse you should ask a senior rabbi with experience in these issues and, even better, you should ask a full beit din (religious court) made up of senior rabbis with experience in these issues before reporting the abuse to the authorities.

Kolko's molestation of hundreds of children continued for over 40 years!

Not only did his boss Margolis know, but also almost every Rav and student in Torah Temimah, the offices of Agudath Israel, the staff of Camp Agudah, the senior administration of Torah U'Mesorah, as well as Rabbi Shmuel Dishon of Yeshiva Karlin-Stolin, HaRav Yaakov Perlow, HaRav Avrohom Pam, HaRav Elya Svei, HaRav Chaim Dov Keller, HaRav Aharon Schechter, HaRav Moshe Scheinerman, HaRav Yaacov Bender, HaRav David Cohen, HaRav Shia Fishman, HaRav Menashe Klein, HaRav Yechezkel Roth, HaRav Aharon Stein, HaRav Moshe Stern, HaRav Chaim Yankel Tauber, HaRav Pinchos Scheinberg, HaRav Nosson Sherman, HaRav Eli Teitelbaum, etc.

For a detailed timeline of Kolko's molestation escapade and cover-up see:

http://rabbimatisyahusalomon.blogspot.com/2006/12/open-letter-to-rabbi-matisyahu-salomon.html.

Obviously, as we see with the very mechubad list of Rabbonim who were actively involved in the Kolko fiasco, Rabbonim who have absolutely no experience can not and should not be consulted with before going to the authorities!

When you see someone "supposedly" breaking into a house - you immediately call the police, when you see a serious traffic accident - you immediately call the police, when you see a person supposedly threatening people in the street - you immediately call the police, when you see someone trying to supposedly commit suicide - you immediately call the police, when you see a potential terrorist walking down the street - you immediately call the police, when you see a suspicious package - you immediately call the authorities, when you see a cat stuck in a tree - you call the fire department, etc.

In all of these and other similar cases you don't first call a Rav or ask a Beis Din what you should do. You automatically do what you know is the right thing to do and call the authorities who are trained to deal with these and other situations.

So why in cases with potential child abuse and molestation, where there is a potential and outright danger to children, do you have to first go to a Rav, and maybe a second, and then try to convene a Beis Din and get them to agree to hear the allegations, whilst children are being attacked and destroyed by a walking and breathing "terrorist molester"?

[Gevezener Chusid]

Actually I think calling a Mafia hit man might be the best course of action to take against child molesters, haredi or otherwise.

[Gevezener Chusid]

and NO I do not know any Mafia hit-men. But there must be some Divine reason that Boro Park is right next to Bensonhurst.

[chayim heller]

syhmarye the biggest SONE YISRUEL IN OUR DAYS GOD WILL TAKE CARE ON HIM

[OMG]

Posted by: David | May 19, 2011 at 01:42 AM

Allow me to add to your outstanding post, if a child comes home and tell the parents that he was just molested by an individual, it would be imperative that they go right away to the police, because the police will able to collect forensic evidence, to either implicate or explicate the defendant, before it gets lost. No Rabbi has the wherewithal to collect and safeguard evidence for future use in a legal proceeding.

[Chill out]

I am all for long (life if possible) sentences for child molesters.

But.. the cops and the DAs can not be trusted to always use good judgement.

They arrest first and after the SOMETIMES innocent person is in jail for a few days or longer they are released.

It is possible by speaking to someone else that is smarter than you or more knowledgable than you ... you may realize that what you were reporting is not a real issue to report on.

ie: you see an 18 year old Yeshiva Bochur in a public bathroom with a child with his pants down. You can assume he is doing something wrong or maybe he is helping a retarded handicapped kid that he is watching.

Hopefully the Beis Din or Rabbi you consult would only encourage police involvement if anything is really going on.

[Chill out]

if you want to see what is wrong with the cops you may be trusting see this very intereseting website

http://www.injusticeeverywhere.com/

[chabib]

This is Donkey Dung !

[seymour]

and NO I do not know any Mafia hit-men. But there must be some Divine reason that Boro Park is right next to Bensonhurst.

Posted by: Gevezener Chusid | May 19, 2011 at 05:16 AM

what happened to the good old days when we had many mafia hit men that where Jewish.

Murder INC almost exclusively Jewish

[seymour]

I am all for long (life if possible) sentences for child molesters.

But.. the cops and the DAs can not be trusted to always use good judgement.

They arrest first and after the SOMETIMES innocent person is in jail for a few days or longer they are released.

It is possible by speaking to someone else that is smarter than you or more knowledgable than you ... you may realize that what you were reporting is not a real issue to report on.

ie: you see an 18 year old Yeshiva Bochur in a public bathroom with a child with his pants down. You can assume he is doing something wrong or maybe he is helping a retarded handicapped kid that he is watching.

Hopefully the Beis Din or Rabbi you consult would only encourage police involvement if anything is really going on.

Posted by: Chill out | May 19, 2011 at 10:19 AM

not true

I have a friend who is a prosecutor in Brooklyn and deal almost exclusively with child molestation.

she said that is the one crime that they are very careful before they issue arrest warrant. the reason she said that they realize that the mere accusation can ruin a person life. And do not issue an arrest warrant unless they really are convinced the accusation are true.

In addition beis dein has been dealing with this issue for over 20 years and they have recommended to go to the police ZERO times.
They are nothing more that a utility to protect the molester

[seymour]

"It is possible by speaking to someone else that is smarter than you or more knowledgable than you ... you may realize that what you were reporting is not a real issue to report on."

chill out

your correct that is why you go to the police

[jewishwhistleblower]

See: http://www.cliffviewpilot.com/editorials/op-ed/2382-no-question-what-jewish-parents-of-abused-children-must-do

Excerpts only:

No question what Jewish parents of abused children must do
Thursday, 19 May 2011 02:00 Asher Lipner
ASHER LIPNER: For the Talmudic scholars among us, it appears we have a scholarly debate about a ruling that says one must report child abuse directly to the police, and how to interpret it. The Jewish Press says that it means to go to the police. Rabbi Gottesman of the Agudath Israel says it means to go to the rabbis.

...

Rebbetzin Bracha says what every Jewish mother and every Jewish father knows deep in their heart: That you should never listen to rabbis when it comes to your child's safety (SEE: Shining Light on Sexual Abuse).

They are not trained in these matters.

They have conflicts of interest

...

[jewishwhistleblower]

See: http://failedmessiah.typepad.com/failed_messiahcom/2007/02/rabbi_dovid_fei.html

July 2006 quote from the Jewish Voice:
...
In general, Rabbi [Dovid] Feinstein says, it is a good idea for would-be
accusers in the Jewish community to take their charges to a beit din
before going to the police. “If the person is found guilty, the beit
din would tell the accuser to go to the police; if the person is found
not guilty, the beit din would tell the accuser to forget it,” he
says. Asked if he knows of any instances in which a beit din referred a
case to the civil authorities, Rabbi Feinstein says he does not.
...

[David]

Agudah's position is ridiculous for two simple reasons.

1) Their position is in favor of breaking US laws
2) Bet dins are inccapable of handling these cases (due to lack of resources, detectives? arrest authority? etc).

[ah-pee-chorus]

here are some questions that i need a psak halacha on from the agudah.
1. if your child tells you the non-jewish boy next door just sodomized him, must you go to the rebbeim before calling the police?
2.does the ruling requiring you to get approval from rebbeim before going to the police also apply when your home is robbed and you think you know who did it? or is it specific to cases when your child has been violated?

[ah-pee-chorus]

question 2. could also be when your child tells you he saw your frum neighbor robbing your house.

[seymour]

question 2. could also be when your child tells you he saw your frum neighbor robbing your house.

Posted by: ah-pee-chorus | May 19, 2011 at 01:56 PM

when my parents house was robbed by some frum boys no one would help us and those that could have been a witness to place the boys entering my parents house all asked a rov and the answer was NO.

Funny the cops knew who robbed my house and said they do it every week and said but you guys refuse to press chargers or be witnesses so why should I do anything.

I shook his hand and said you are correct I will try my hardest to get a witness I did but the rov blocked it.

and the boys just continued to rob frum peoples houses and some graduated to more serious crimes .

real geniuses these rebbies .

Maybe Budweiser should make a commercial and use the rebbies as real men of genius

[seymour]

here are some questions that i need a psak halacha on from the agudah.
1. if your child tells you the non-jewish boy next door just sodomized him, must you go to the rebbeim before calling the police?

Go to the police no question need to be asked

but i guess you knew that already

[seymour]

i also remembered my prosecutor friend telling me she has a very very big stack of cases that are open that she know who the molester s are in the frum community.

She say some times parents do speak up but then her office get calls from rebbies and the parents get so harassed they stop cooperating with her office.

There was even a case of a frum girl getting raped and there was dna evidence on the girls dress. So their was proof or the yid could have just given his dna and one will find out. That was until the rebbie made them destroy and throw out the dress.

This and other stories tell me they are lying about the beis din issue and will just use it to block reporting cases.

The DA who is not Jewish ( she riled about the church too) said parents can and some cried that something needs to be done and she has a hard time explaining to then that without their help there is nothing they can do.

And they say they are afraid of the repercussions from the rebbies (threats etc.) and the community if they go public

very sick

[ah-pee-chorus]

: seymour -
the whole issue is certainly very sick. thanks for your stories.

[jewishwhistleblower]

It looks like I have to reprint my old comment to clarify matters.
From: February 14, 2007 at 01:26 PM

I would remind people that Rav Reuven
Feinstein is a Presidium (board) member of Agudath Israel of America Inc. So when Agudath Israel through its spokesperson Avi Shafran says:

>"Rabbi Salomon's words, however,
>could not have been clearer. He
>pointed out how some people like
>to accuse the haredi community
>of "sweeping things under the
>carpet." They are right, he went
>on to explain, but not in the way
>they mean. "Do they know how many
>perpetrators" of sins against
>others "have been dealt with?" No,
>he averred, because when actions
>are taken against individuals who
>have proven themselves untrustworthy,
>Orthodox leaders do not trumpet their
>actions. And even as they take what
>steps are necessary to protect others,
>he added, they also seek to protect
>human dignity.

We know thanks to Rav Dovid Feinstein exactly how many child molesters "have been dealt with". ZERO, not one.

>"Asked if he knows of any
>instances in which a beit din
>referred a case to the civil
>authorities, Rabbi Feinstein says
>he does not.

And they are who we rely on to protect our children at their camps and in institutions?

[The nudnik]

Regarding reporting sexual abuse, please see what Rabbi Moshe Soloveichik has to say:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=apGcxfhZ01U

And read this essay by Rabbi Yosef Blau:
http://tzedek-tzedek.blogspot.com/2009/09/rabbis-dealing-with-abuse.html

[The nudnik]

Regarding reporting sexual abuse, please see what Rabbi Moshe Soloveichik has to say:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=apGcxfhZ01U

And read this essay by Rabbi Yosef Blau:
http://tzedek-tzedek.blogspot.com/2009/09/rabbis-dealing-with-abuse.html

[A. Nuran]

Oh, for fuck's sake. Satanic Ritual Abuse? Are you really stuck in the 1980s (or 1480s) when absence of evidence is evidence? Google "Not Even Wrong". I'm guessing you'll find Adam's picture in the wiki on the subject

[Hometown Postville]

Excuse me, Mr. Rabbi(who molested your husband 10 years ago), one of your new guys touched my son inappropriately. He feels ashamed and violated. What should I do?
Pray, my child, pray! It was merely his initiation into an honored society! Now be on your way and don't tell a soul what happened.

[Runner1983]

"Jewish law" is based on what some rabbi proclaimed, perhaps hundreds or thousands of years ago. These "laws" were not debated by elected officials accountable to the people who elected them, and can be thrown out of office if the electorate doesn't like their views or the laws that they have passed.

Rabbis accountable to no one, make "fatwa type" proclamations on any subject, and expect their followers to adhere to what they say. Any individual with a brain and is able to use his or her own good critical judgment and common sense will make their own decisions on how to live their lives. Unfortunately, many of those who are part of the haredi culture have not be raised to use their own critical judgment and common sense. I feel sorry for them.

In the case of expected child abuse, every adult has the duty to report it to the police, regardless of what some rabbi says. For the sake of the child, and the sake of possible future victims of the abuser, go to the police, who are trained to deal with these crimes. Not doing so is a sin, regardless of what your rabbi says. Those who say you must go to a rabbi first are commiting a sin against children. Use your own critical judgment and common sense.