The Problems With Kosher Slaughter Explained By The World's Foremost Expert

"Kosher slaughter of cattle requires special care. While some kosher plants have done well, and many others are improving, too often kosher plants have been very badly managed compared to many of the big conventional plants."

 

Opinion: Maximizing Animal Welfare in Kosher Slaughter
By Temple Grandin • Forward

There are legislative attempts around the world to require stunning of animals prior to religious slaughter. I do not get involved in the politics of this issue, but the following discussion may help clarify where there are problem areas.

Over the past 30 years I have worked closely with the kosher industry to ensure that religious slaughter is performed in as humane a manner as possible. The issue of stunning, in my view, is not the most important issue when it comes to ensuring the welfare of animals before they are slaughtered. But it is critical to recognize that performing kosher slaughter with an acceptable level of welfare does require more attention to the procedure’s details than slaughter in which the animal is stunned.

There are two animal welfare issues when slaughter is performed without stunning. They are the method used to restrain the animal and the throat cut itself.

These issues are particularly relevant when it comes to cattle. Poultry can be slaughtered easily with a sharp knife, and there is no need for stunning. Sheep are smaller than cattle and easier to restrain and kill quickly. A lamb that is slaughtered with a sharp knife out on the farm, even without stunning, probably has better welfare than a lamb that has to ride on a truck to a slaughter plant. Due to anatomical differences in the blood vessels in the neck, cattle take twice as long as sheep to lose consciousness after the cut, and their size makes them difficult to restrain.

Some of the worst animal welfare problems in the kosher industry are the stressful methods of restraint that are still being used in some slaughterhouses. In the United States, there are still some kosher plants that hoist conscious animals by one rear leg. Fortunately, most of the large American kosher plants have stopped using this traumatic method.

In South American kosher slaughterhouses, however, the handling practices are often atrocious. The live cattle are shackled and dragged and then held down by several people. The methods of restraint are so bad that it is impossible to determine how the animal is reacting to the throat cut. Large amounts of kosher beef are imported into this country from plants that are using these barbaric methods of restraint.

Even when a plant has decent restraint equipment to hold the animal in a more comfortable position, it needs to be operated correctly. This requires management that is committed to good animal treatment.

I have observed that when kosher slaughter of cattle is done well, there is almost no reaction from the animal when the throat is cut. Flicking my hand near the animal’s face caused a bigger reaction. When the cut is done well, 90% or more of the cattle will collapse and become unconscious within 30 seconds.

There are new scientific studies that show there are welfare concerns when animals are slaughtered without stunning. New Zealand researchers conducted a study on calves with a new EEG brain wave method that indicated that the knife cut caused pain. In this study, however, they used a machine-sharpened knife that may have been too short. A knife that is too short will cause gouging of the wound. The results of this study clearly show that the knife they used was not acceptable. To this date, a similar study has not been done with the special long kosher knife.

Another study has shown that one of the most difficult welfare problems to solve is aspiration (inhaling) of blood into the lungs after the cut. Cattle continue to breathe after the throat is cut. There is much variation in the percentage of animals that aspirate blood. It may be possible to improve methods and reduce this problem. Aspiration of blood is an issue that must be fixed to have an acceptable level of welfare. It will require both research and practical experimentation with technique to solve this problem.

Finally, there needs to be accountability to ensure that both restraint and slaughter are done correctly. Over the years, I have become disgusted by the frequency with which procedures in a given plant seem perfect when I am visiting, but as soon as I have left an undercover video surfaces that reveals bad practices. This has happened in both conventional and religious slaughter plants.

To prevent this problem, I am a big advocate of video auditing over the Internet. An outside auditing company can view video from a plant and evaluate its practices using an objective scoring system. Some of the variables that can be measured are electric prod use, percentage of cattle vocalizing (bellowing) and acts of abuse. Video auditing is now being used in many large, conventional slaughter plants. Unfortunately, all kosher plants have resisted video auditing.

Kosher slaughter of cattle requires special care. While some kosher plants have done well, and many others are improving, too often kosher plants have been very badly managed compared to many of the big conventional plants.

In order to maximize animal welfare, kosher slaughterhouses need to take the following steps: 1) eliminate stressful cruel methods of restraint such as dragging, shackling and hoisting or leg clamping; 2) keep animals calm before slaughter, since an agitated animal is more difficult to kill and takes longer to become unconscious; 3) perform the cut immediately after an animal’s head is restrained; 4) use restraining devices that hold animals in a comfortable upright position; 5) perform collapse scoring to keep track of the proportion of animals that quickly lose consciousness; 6) use video auditing by an outside firm, and practice transparency by streaming the video to a webpage so that the public can view it.

Adhering to these practices would enhance animal welfare, and all these steps could be implemented without transgressing the requirements of religious law. The kosher industry has an opportunity to show the world that it is doing things the right way.

Temple Grandin is a professor of animal science at Colorado State University and a designer of livestock handling facilities. She is the author of “Animals Make Us Human: Creating the Best Life for Animals” (Houghton Mifflin Harcourt, 2009).

For those of you have followed my comments on the current European attempt to label ritually slaughtered meat, you'll note that my representations of Dr. Grandin's positions are correct, and that pro-shechita activists have been misrepresenting Dr. Grandin's views.

Comments

[masortiman]

1. while it is true that Ms Grandin says that special care is required in kosher slaughter, care that is often not given, she also makes clear such care IS possible. It seems that while the some of the specific statements made by kashrut agencies in europe are false, the larger anti shechita argument is also false, which seems to be to also be important.

2. Given that here in the US SOME kosher meat is shected following Ms Grandins approach, and some is not (or is imported from places where her approach is not followed) how do we, as a practical matter, differentiate? is there a website showing which is which? Could there be a special hecksher?

3. I would like to add one thing that I find very important - we should note how Ms Grandins impressive career shows the potential of a person who has autism. Ms Grandin has not only overcome, she has in some measure used her difference as a strength, using her different way of seeing the world to get insight into the experiences of animals, as she has discussed in her book. It is time we stop seeing people with all kinds of differences as just "disabled" and start seeing how they can contribute, if their differences are appropriately recognized, but not assumed to be completely disabling. I know thats not the subjec of this makloikes, but ISTM that that is STILL a very important lesson to learn from Ms Grandin - its a battle that is not yet won.

[masortiman]

Pardon I misspoke earlier.

Magen Tzedek DOES include an animal welfare component. And among other things it specifically encourages the video auditing suggested by Ms Grandin.

[Shmarya]

It seems that while the some of the specific statements made by kashrut agencies in europe are false, the larger anti shechita argument is also false, which seems to be to also be important.

Not at all.

Very few kosher slaughterhouses follow correct Grandin procedures.

European animal welfare advocates base their opinions on the reality – which is often horrific in Europe – rather than the possible.

Given that here in the US SOME kosher meat is shected following Ms Grandins approach, and some is not (or is imported from places where her approach is not followed) how do we, as a practical matter, differentiate? is there a website showing which is which? Could there be a special hecksher?

Most glatt kosher meat produced was produced by NOT following Grandin procedures.

A hechsher to determine which does follow Grandin and which does not? Hechsher Tzedek / Magen Tzedek.

[Apikorus Al Ha'esh]

I'm going to say what a lot of people are thinking: Who cares whether the animal is agitated?

I understand that tzaar baalei chayim must come into play at some point, but if there's a cow that's 100% relaxed and another that's 85% relaxed, I don't care enough to demand changes.

I watched 'hoist by one rear leg' shechita performed in Vineland, NJ. Personally. With my own eyes. 10 feet away from the slaughter. The procedure was done very quickly, and the animal went from living and breathing to butchered meat in less than 30 seconds. I don't have a problem with that method. Am I cruel and evil? I think it's perfectly humane.

Someone more knowledgeable can correct me if I'm wrong, but doesn't it make sense that holding the animal upside-down ensures that it won't aspirate blood? The upside-down method lets gravity do most of the work. The animal bleeds out and loses consciousness instantly.

Either way, I applaud Dr. Grandin and her work.

[Hakham Yosef Haim]

There is an American rabbi who lives in Jerusalem who used to be a professor of Psychology and Judaic Studies in Lawrence, Kansas who gives heksherim to places that wash tanker trucks all over America. He uses a system of video monotoring and computerized recordinding of exactly which trucks were washed that he invented to be the robot mashgiach for his system of video monotoring of the truck washing plants.
I don't understand why kosher slaughterhouses are against video monotoring so that the public and the rabbis who decide whether or not the meat is kosher should have better access to watching what goes on in the sllaughterhouses.

[Loshon Hora]

There are many shitos that an animal must be lying on it's back when shechita is preformed. {shechita munachas. Some will not eat from an upright shechita, although in the UK it is performed that way, al-pi horoas R' Henoch Padwa ZATZA"L.

[state of disgust]

The position of the animal is less an issue then the time the animal is given to loose consciousness before being turned out to the kill floor. The Weinberg pen is just as acceptable as standing schechita and does not pose a greater or lesser likelihood of blood aspiration. Once the throat, esophagus and surrounding blood vessels are cut, there is an equal possibility or aspiration in both methods. The problems are: 1) How thorough the primary cut is in severing the key vessels, and; 2) The amount of time provided for the animal to loose consciousness and death to occur.

With the Weinberg Pen there is greater likelihood that the cut will not be thorough because of the position of iron restraining bars near the throat and the potential damage to the knife, thus increasing the likelihood that a second cut will be required to achieve death. All of this takes time and the more time taken the slower the process, the higher the cost of production. In such cases, standing shechita is preferred.

It is my understanding that the majority of meat imported by Alle (Meal Mart) from South America is produced at plants using shackle and hoist, a barbaric and cruel slaughter method outlawed in the US. If anyone has first hand, reliable information to the contrary I would love to hear it, but as far as I know shackle and hoist is SOP in Argentina, Uruguay and elsewhere in S.A. It is one of the reasons I won't buy Alle meat products.

[Hakham Yosef Haim]

Regarding the need for kosher supervision of tanker truck washing. I was once a mashgiach on a chalav yisrael dairy farm and one of my jobs was to climb the ladder to the top of the tanker truck that came to pick up the milk from the farm every day and look down into the tank of the tanker truck to make sure that the tanker truck was washed properly. Every day but one the tanker truck had been washed properly and passed my inspection. The one day that the tanker truck did not meet my inspection was the first day of sucoth and because it was a chag, I was prohibited from taking a water hose and washing the tanker truck myself. I asked the tanker truck driver to take a water hose and wash the tank of the tanker truck and the milk truck driver refused to wash his tanker truck and took some plummers from the beth din of crown heights out of his pocket to give me the message that if I would not seal the tanker truck with my plummer from the beth din of crown heights, he would seal the tanker truck with his plummer.
I refused to let the milk start entering the tanker truck by telling the workers on the dairy farm that the tanker truck needs to be washed first, and finally one of the workers at the dairy farm climbed the ladder of the tanker truck with a water hose and washed the tanker truck to my satisfaction.
On the first night of chol hamoed I called the beth din of crown heights and told them about the tanker truck driver's unauthorized possesion of plummers. Since then (1989) a new system in which every plummer has a number on it has been developed.

[Barry]

Masortiman, Dr Grandin refers to problems arising from the aspiration of blood for which no effective technique is currently known and which may not exist.
This is the main reason given by European veterinarians for requiring stunning.

http://www.fve.org/news/position_papers/animal_welfare/fve_02_104_slaughter_prior_stunning.pdf

[Hakham Yosef Haim]

In 1998 I drove around the rabbi who gives video computerized heksherim to tanker truck washes and he explained his methods to me and showed me what to do if I would be his mashgiach and asked me to be his mashgiach so that he wouldn't have to keep coming to America to supervise tanker truck washes. I told him that I was not available and he has since found another mashgiach who is also sefardi.

[Hakham Yosef Haim]

The reason why bottled water requires a hersher is to make sure that the tanker truck in which the spring water is transported to the bottling plant is completely clean of all foreign substances and this is also why milk and all other liquids require a hersher.

[Hakham Yosef Haim]

Another reason why there must be video monotoring of what goes on in slaughterhouses that can be watched live on the internet is so that any rabbi who wants to check up on the kashruth of the shechita should be able to do so without anybody knowing that a rabbi is watching and that any rabbi or layman should be spi on what is going on in the slaughterhouse and see for himself exactly how the animals are slaughtered and so that those people who will only eat from upright shechita will know that in such and such slaughterhouse the method of shechita is upright shechita, and so that those people who only want to eat from inverted shechita will know which slaughterhouses do inverted shechita and what method of inverted shechita in used in which slaughterhouse.

[Hakham Yosef Haim]

I think that the Weinberg pen is the best method of shechita and I want to know where I can buy meat that was slaughtered in a Weinberg pen instead of by other methods. Postville, Iowa has switched to the Dr. Temple Grandin upright pen under the supervision of Rav Babad and his taktikover beth din. The OU and Rav Belsky as well as the star K and Rav Heineman have for a long time been giving heksherim to upright shechita. The Israeli Chief Rabbinate insists on inverted shechita and would like to eliminate shackle and hoist methods of shechita and use the Weinberg pen instead because it is more humane. I think that the Rubashkins used the Weinberg pen in Postville and that other hasidic shechitoth also used the Weinberg pen, but now that slaughterhouse owners and managers realize that they will go to jail like Rubashkin for hiring underage workers and illegal aliens, the people in the kosher meat business are sending their shochtim and rabbis to and getting their meat from the countries where the illegal aliens come from where they can legally hire non-Americans and where they can legally hire underage workers.
In Mexico and South America none of the slaughterhouse workers want to use of even hear about the Weinberg pen which is a much more humane method of shechita than older methods of inverted shechita such as shackle and hoist or the aincient method of people restraining the animal on its back.
I guess that the demise of Rubashkin was the demise of the Weinberg inverted shechita pen.

[the usual chaim]

it seems from the article that the largest problem is beef production. why not simply up the production of lamb and goat? i would love to have these products more easily available and, due to a larger market, cheaper. why not just reverse the production ratios of red meat? more small livestock, few cattle, problem largely resolved.

[seymour]

it does not matter what the issue is the kosher industry and mainly the rebbies do not want to be told what to do by a gentle.

They feel the way it is done is perfection and leave us alone no gentle can improve on gods perfection of killing a cow.

Of course the issue is with before and after the cutting they are too arrogant to care

[seymour]

The reason why bottled water requires a hersher is to make sure that the tanker truck in which the spring water is transported to the bottling plant is completely clean of all foreign substances and this is also why milk and all other liquids require a hersher.

Posted by: Hakham Yosef Haim | April 29, 2011 at 12:16 PM

please water truckers transport water not pig meat or anything else

it is a money gimmick. and a few jews buy into that nonsense

[seymour]

when I speak to many frummies and tell them what Temple Grandin said and she is not against shechtha they do not care they simply say she is an antisemite and need not be listened too

to some asev sona yakov and that is a fact no matter what and not be trusted

[Hakham Yosef Haim]

Water truckers also transport milk, juice concentrates, vegetable oils, hot liquid parafin wax, and maybe even hot lard!

[Alter Kocker]

Bottom line: The pronouncements on shechita and stunning had better be adapted before animal welfare authorities stop the flow of Kosher meat. This is not anti-semitism. This is the wind of change.

[Yechiel]

Seymour.
Idunno who you've been talking to; no one in the shechita industry thinks of Grandin as an antisemite.
My personal preference is an upright pen. Shehita munahat is just a gimmick... and a misunderstanding/misrepresentation of a particular Halakha. Any honest knowledgable rabbi will tell you so.

[A. Nuran]

Apikorus Al Ha'Esh writes:
The upside-down method lets gravity do most of the work. The animal bleeds out and loses consciousness instantly.
The animal doesn't lose consciousness instantly. The large the animal, the longer it takes. A sheep takes at least ten seconds. I know. I just did this a week or so ago. A cow takes a lot longer.

Either way, I applaud Dr. Grandin and her work.
Absolutely.

[Shmarya]

Apikorus Al Ha'Esh doesn't have the slightest idea what he's talking about – or he's lying outright.

Shechita menuchat, upside down shechita, has a LONGER bleedout time than standing shechita.

The man is a moron.

[WoolSilkCotton]

++Water truckers also transport milk, juice concentrates, vegetable oils, hot liquid parafin wax, and maybe even hot lard!

Posted by: Hakham Yosef Haim | April 29, 2011 at 02:46 PM++

You are full of hot lard.

[ah-pee-chorus]

Shehita munahat is just a gimmick... and a misunderstanding/misrepresentation of a particular Halakha. Any honest knowledgable rabbi will tell you so.
Posted by: Yechiel

for that matter all halachas are just misunderstandings of rabbis who misrepresent the truth of how we got here and what their book says about it.

[ah-pee-chorus]

i'm surprised grandin doesnt come down harder against shechita and that she doesnt call for pre-stunning in all slaughter of cattle. if we disregard the study done which shows the animal feeling pain from the cutting, since the knife may have been too short, then why not assume pain as the default position until it is shown that with a shechita knife, no such pain registers on the EEG. there is no evidence that a proper shechita knife-cut involves no pain, so absent that, stunning should be required. if the kosher crowd wants to claim otherwise let them pay for a new study which will use an actual shechita qualified knife. until then i agree with all of the countries which demand stunning.

[Yechiel]

APC
Yup, I agree... everything just 'happens'. Shmendriks like you are a shear accident. No being would ever willingly create something that will bring him shame...

Enjoy your weekend.

[ah-pee-chorus]

yechiel i was just joking. of course believing things just happen for no reason is silly . what really happened is that a god somehow existed and decided to create a universe about 15 Billion years ago. He then decided to do very little for about 12 billion years. hes very patient. then god created very simple organisms which took billions more years before they evolved into millions of species including humans about 200,000 years ago. and then he ignored these humans for the first 197,000 years giving them no direction or instructions. and finally 3000 years ago he decided to choose some nomadic group of semitic former slaves in the middle of the desert to give his special torah.
so dont worry yechiel, you are very special. god made you and cares very deeply about you. he is watching you all the time. he's like an invisible daddy. and they all lived happily ever after.

[WoolSilkCotton]

Yechiel, why is God so angry all the time?

[ah-pee-chorus]

No being would ever willingly create something that will bring him shame...

so true. thats how you can tell the torah is just joking when it says that god killed every living human except noah and family because the very humans he created were bringing him shame.
nice proof, yechiel

[ah-pee-chorus]

WSC-
i'll take the liberty of answering for yechiel and i'll try to guess what he would say........

maybe cause of guys like me.
or maybe hes an angry drunk.
or maybe he loves us too much and doesnt know how to show it.
maybe he was molested as a baby god.
or maybe its like a father who chokes his son to death for touching a hot stove in order to teach how dangerous that could be.

I JUST DONT KNOW!!!

[WoolSilkCotton]

God is described throughout the Torah as an angry and grumpy old Jewish guy.

That's because it was written by an angry and grumpy old Jewish guy.

Maybe the Torah was written by Jerry Stiller, or Walter Matthau, or Jack Klugman. Or maybe one of them is God.

[WoolSilkCotton]

Yechiel needs to visit a childrens' hospital to see the wonderful results of God's perfect creation. Kids with horrible birth defects, incurable cancers, neurologic catastrophies, etc.
Oh yeah, God does a wonderful job each and every day at the childrens' hospital.

[emmylou]

And when some trivial good thing happens, some people attribute it to God. They seem to forget all the suffering people God seems to ignore.

God, where are you? There are people starving to death! What are you doing that's more important than feeding them? Checking to see that cows are killed according to your orders?

[ah-pee-chorus]

those suffering innocent kids must be being punished for the actions of their fathers since the torah says in some places that kids ARE punished for sins of fathers and in other places that they are NOT.
GOD must also hate poor people. thats why he kills so many more of their kids in places like africa.

[Yoel Mechanic]

>and practice transparency by streaming the video to a webpage so that the public can view it.

I would expect this last recommendation will meet resistance. I wonder if this is also recommended for non-kosher slaughter too.

And I am not sure if the viewing public will be consistent in their viewing or know what to look for. In any event, an informed public is better than an uninformed public; so even with reservations about the utility of the last suggestion I think it would be OK too.

[A E ANDERSON]

This was a nice article.

Ultimately, kashrut is a Jewish religious practice, not a sub-discipline of animal husbandry or food science. Once can grasp, however, that the ancients understood some of these issues when they mandated rov b' simonim for larger animals.

Shechita performed in a truly mehadrin way, with great care to all facets of the activity and not a myopia over sirchos, would produce the desired result without need for innovation. Dr. Grandin's mention of 90 percent is heartening in this regard.

It is also worth wondering if the massively fattened cattle of today experience special issues in their slaughter owing to their excessive size, much as obese people reportedly experience specific health problems arising from their size.

I wonder if Dr. Grandin's research differentiates among the traditional old grass fed cow sent to the butcher, vs. the modern feed lot behemoth that has replaced it on our tables.

[Shachter]

God's Plan:

1. God writes in the Torah, God created the the big light (sun) to shine during the day, and the small light (moon) to shine during the night.

2. Come Chazal, and believe that during the night the sun travels from west to east over the non-transparent blanket called sky, and the moon, underneath this blanket, shines onto us with its own light.

3. Chazal must therefore translate the words Homoer Hakoton, as an object like the sun in small version.

4. We, however, find out that the moon is actually earth and rocks, so we translate the Posuk, different than Chazal, that the Moer Hakatan is actually not even a true light.

5. This might be God's message to us not to follow Chazal in their translation of the Posuk with the word, 'Vezovachto'.

[Paul]

Dr Grandin, as usual, is 100 percent right. Shechita needs to be performed properly and with the minimal amount of pain to the animal. Every one of my fellow fellow-travelers as Shmarya calls them, would agree with every word of Dr Grandin's article.

That is in fact why for example, the UK only has standing shechita and why most shechita activists have made massive attempts to persuade the French and Belgians to move over from their shechita munachat practices.

Dr Grandin is not and never has been an advocate of forcing kosher animals to be stunned before shechita. That is clear from the article.

ALL OF WHICH HAS ABSOLUTELY NOTHING TO DO WITH THE DISCRIMATORY LABELLING OF KOSHER MEAT AS PROPOSED BY SOME MEP'S.

So, once and for all, please Shmarya, stop mixing apples and oranges and stop misrepresenting peoplke who are defending the future of European Jewish communities - who, as you well know, are no more hareidi than you are....

We are not discussing shechita methods here in the EU - we are discussing discriminatory labelling. (And as Dr Grandin points out yet again, she does not advocate pre-cut stunning.)

[Shmarya]

ALL OF WHICH HAS ABSOLUTELY NOTHING TO DO WITH THE DISCRIMATORY LABELLING OF KOSHER MEAT AS PROPOSED BY SOME MEP'S.

Please.

It has everything to do with your previous lies about European shechita.

As for labeling, let it happen. It is NOT discriminatory, because all unlabeled meat is by definition stunned before slaughter. It is only most ritually slaughtered meat that is not stunned, and the purpose of the labeling is to inform consumers that the meat they are about to buy comes from an unstunned animal.

You and fellow travelers made your bed, and now the Jewish community can lie in it.

[Shmarya]

(And as Dr Grandin points out yet again, she does not advocate pre-cut stunning.)

Again, you lie.

What Dr. Grandin advocates is correct animal handling techniques and correct slaughter techniques.

But as you very well know, the vast majority of shechita in the EU has neither correct animal handling or correct slaughter techniques.

In those cases, Dr. Grandin would certainly advocate pre-shechita stunning if the rabbis and their fellow travelers refuse to fix the problems with shechita.

May you all rot.

[Yoel Mechanic]

Grandin starts here article with:

"There are legislative attempts around the world to require stunning of animals prior to religious slaughter. I do not get involved in the politics of this issue, but the following discussion may help clarify where there are problem areas."

After that her main point is shechita can be done (the standard way, without stunning)but does require "extra care". She states she has often observed this to be not the case, but the essential point should be regarded as good news: she is confident that if her clearly stated recommendations are followed, then kosher slaughter can be done humanely.

This point was as clearly stated as her point that she will not get involved in politics (presumably what to do about the situation through political means).

[Apikorus Al Ha'esh]

Shmarya - you called me a moron. Why? What, exactly, was moronic about my statement?

First off, I invited someone more knowledgeable to correct me. Nobody has, thus far. Calling me a moron doesn't count.

Let me try to convey what I saw in Vineland:

The animal - in this case, a veal calf that I'd estimate is about three-quarters the size of a full-grown steer - is led onto the killing floor. Its left rear leg is shackled to a chain. The chain is then hoisted until the animal is hanging upside-down, vertically. A worker raises the animal's head, cradling it and exposing the beis hashchita. The shochet cuts the animal's throat. The worker releases the animal's head.

This whole process takes, at most, 7-8 seconds.

Once the animal's head is released, what looks to me like 90+ percent of its blood supply drains out *immediately* in one big rush.

That's what I'm basing my assumptions on. The animal is hanging vertically. It bled out in less than a second. It hasn't aspirated any blood. It's no longer alive.

Now, please explain to me why I'm wrong, without resorting to name-calling.

Thanks.

[Shmarya]

Yes, you are a moron.

1. A veal calf is not 3/4 the size of a fully grown steer – it is far smaller than that.

2. What you saw is shackle and hoist slaughter, not shechita menuchat or a Weinberg pen.

3. Shackle and hoist is exceedingly cruel, has been banned by almost every non-hasidic rabbi in the world (and some hasidic ones, as well), and creates many real questions of tarfus.

You're a na'ar. You don't know the subject and you don't grasp even basic facts.

[Apikorus Al Ha'esh]

1. A veal calf is not 3/4 the size of a fully grown steer – it is far smaller than that.

The calves I saw were very large. I've been on numerous farms and interacted with calves, cows, and steers numerous times. But okay, you're right. I'm making things up because I'm a na'ar. I appreciate that you added na'ar to the list. It shows some creativity and variety on your part.

2. What you saw is shackle and hoist slaughter, not shechita menuchat or a Weinberg pen.

I never claimed to have seen shechita munachat or a Weinberg pen. Guess that makes me a moron.

3. Shackle and hoist is exceedingly cruel, has been banned by almost every non-hasidic rabbi in the world (and some hasidic ones, as well), and creates many real questions of tarfus.

Please provide documentation for this. I was at Vineland together with several non-hasidic rabbonim who had/have decades of experience in kashrus supervision. At no point did any of them leap onto the killing floor and demand that production cease.

>You're a na'ar. You don't know the subject and you don't grasp even basic facts.

Please enlighten me, Shmarya. Explain the basic facts. At p'sach lo.

Because seriously, you're throwing your weight around as if you're the expert and I'm an ignoramus. And the kicker is, *you may be right.* But you're not proving it. You're resorting to name-calling and insults.

I will google shackle-and-hoist shechita and find out who banned it, when, and why. But in the meantime, it's on you to tell me why it's "exceedingly cruel."

It's not enough for you to pronounce it "exceedingly cruel." You have to back it up, Shmarya. I watched it with my own two eyes. I watched a half-dozen animals killed via shackle-and-hoist. This is the point I'm trying to convey, and you don't seem to get: It did not seem exceedingly cruel to me.

That's all I'm saying.

I am not a biologist or a veterinarian. Nor am I a rabbi or a mashgiach. I have nothing firmer than a lay person's grasp on the material.

However, I was there. That's why I'm commenting.

Do you understand now?

[Apikorus Al Ha'esh]

Okay. Did some googling. Shackle-and-hoist is still being used. There's nothing unkosher about it. Tendon-ripping and bone-breaking are cited as potential side effects by some sources, and dismissed by others. The only people insisting, demanding, and taking as proven fact that this method is "exceedingly cruel" are PETA activists. Ergo, Shmarya is simple a PETA mouthpiece.

Gezinterheit. But come clean and say so, ok?

[Yoel Mechanic]

Quote of the article above:

Some of the worst animal welfare problems in the kosher industry are the stressful methods of restraint that are still being used in some slaughterhouses. In the United States, there are still some kosher plants that hoist conscious animals by one rear leg. Fortunately, most of the large American kosher plants have stopped using this traumatic method.

Now, Apik. Al HaAish?? what's with your nickname? You abandoned about the fire? Anyway, how can you say that only PETA is objecting to hoisting by the rear leg when the articles cited above has Temple Grandin objecting to this method. And most kosher places have stopped this method but you claim that no one but PETA had a problem with it?

[Shmarya]

YM, Apikorus Al Ha'esh is a shoteh and probably a liar.

In his twisted account, veal calfs are 3/4 the size of full grown steers, which is insane, and his claim that shechita menuchat animals bleed out faster is based not on shechita menuchat, but on shackle and hoist slaughter.

Why is European shechtia 'under threat'?

Because Europe is home to lots of Jews like Apikorus Al Ha'esh.

[Shmarya]

As for the rabbis who have banned shackle and hoist slaughter, here are several for you:

Rabbi Yoseph Ber Soleveichik and the Chief Rabbis of Israel.

[Paul]

Why don't you ask her then?

1. Is european shechita more or less humane than in the US.

2. Maybe you tell me where we shackle and hoist like you barbarians?

3. How much throat-ripped meat have you consumed in all the years when you were eating Rubashkins?

4. And maybe you can ask Dr Grandin whether she advocates stunning for european shechita? You know damn well she doesn't. Your insults are as a result of your squirming.

You've dug yourself a hole preaching about a subject - European shechita - you know nothing about in a context - European politics - which you know even less about. When you're in a hole, stop digging or jump in and cover the top so the rest of us don't fall in with you.

Normally, I wouldn't mind about this but when you deliberately misrepresent Dr Grandin that is pushing it a bit, no?

[Shmarya]

Stop your lies.

I've interviewed Dr. Grandin several times. Each interview was about shechita.

European shechita is from what I've seen less humane than the US, which has its own problems.

And what Dr. Grandin advocates is humane treatment of animals and well done shechita.

Since Europe's rabbis can deliver neither, Dr. Grandin would support pre-shechita stunning.

You once lost a job because you were cooking the books, so to speak, and your work was untrustworthy as a result.

You're doing the same thing here.

Now grow up and stop lying.

[Paul]

Apparently,

You are mixing me up with someone else. I'm not aware that I've ever lost a job of any kind at all, let alone cooked any books.

Now, go to Colorado and ask Dr Grandin whether she advocates pre-cut stunning for European shechita. You know she doesn't.

Time to stop squirming and the insults.

[Shmarya]

I don't want to out you but you know damn well that there is a certain thing you no longer do because a certain organization will not take your work. And they will not take your work because you did to them what you are trying to do to me. You eliminate any facts that prove you wrong or weaken your case. And you lie.

As for Dr. Grandin, again, I've interviewed her three times and I'm very familiar with her attitudes toward shechita and stunning.

If shechita is done following her recommendations, she doesn't think stunning is necessary. In fact, it may be counter indicated.

But if shechita is not going to be done that way then stunning is called for.

She realizes today's Orthodox rabbis will not allow pre-shechita stunning, so she advocates for better animal handling and shechita techniques instead.

But your rabbis have not instituted those techniques and have not dealt with most of the animal handling issues.

And so what we have is a situation where the European Parliament is taking action to identify shechita meat in the marketplace which will cause a dramatic drop in sales of that meat.

You don't like this and your rabbis don't like this.

But it's your own fault.

[state of disgust]

AAH:
You really are an idiot.
When you hoist a living animal up by a hind leg, you strain the muscles and tendons in that leg creating contusions and breaks.
Putting the leg in an unnatural position you impact the joint at the pelvis. You put the considerable pressure of the animals body mass on the lungs making it difficult to impossible for the animal to breathe.

All of this causes extreme pain and therefore is deemed cruel.

After the animals throat is cut - if done properly - the animal will loose consciousness quickly. However, the autonomic nervous system continues to function and the heart continues to beat until there is no more blood for it to pump. This does not happen quickly. Human blood is measured in pints. Large animals blood is measure in gallons, and it takes time for the animal to bleed out. There is an initial strong spurt after the throat is slit followed by consecutively smaller, less powerful spurts.

[Paul]

Did they teach you this thuggery, false accusations and misrepresentations when you were in that Chabad BT yeshiva?

I'm not interested in being as you so quaintly put it - "outed" because I think that some of my contributions are from a position of intense knowledge which would be compromised if people knew who I was. But if you feel like outing me after you've been very happy to use me as a source over the years, I don't suppose I can stop you.

It's very sad that you've now fallen into the classic trap of sectarianism where the interests of the faction trump the interests of the klal that originally you went out to protect. I have never lost sight of the big picture.

Because you are right when you say that discriminatory labelling will result in less meat sold. In fact, it will mean the end of economically viable shechita in Europe, and the destruction of the organised Jewish communities.

Dont get me wrong here though. The labelling is wrong notwithstanding its effect on Jewish communities. Because it is inherently racist in practice and quite often in intention as well. And it has nothing to do with animal welfare.

Now, it is frankly outrageous that you begin my accusing me of "cooking the books" implying some sort of financial dishonesty or fraud and now claim that I no longer work for a previous contractor - not employer - because they no longer required my work.

As it so happens, that incredibly poorly paid work which continued to take more of my work than from anywhere else in the world up to the day I left and even begged me to continue producing more after I had taken on a more prestigious position, was left by me voluntarily for a better-paid and more prestigious job.

I declined to continue producing for them because I believed it to be a conflict of interest with my current role and could therefore impinge on the independence of my work.

The fact, as you well know, that over one particular piece of work I came into specific conflict with one specific person brought into the organisation specifically for that role, says a hell of a lot more about that person's independence and integrity than it does about mine - as in fact, this blog has demonstrated on more than one occassion in the past.

This concludes my last posting to your blog. Your loyal readers will ultimately learn that all generations have their false messiahs.....

[Shmarya]

You're simply not as bright as you think you are.

You know very well who will no longer work with you and why. I know that as well because I communicated with them about it.

That you are too dense to understand that "cooking the books" is clear and unambiguously written as an allegory to protect your identity only adds to the strength of those who legitimately opposed you.

But none of this matters.

What does matter is that you misrepresented Dr. Grandin's position on shechita.

I called you out on it and you attacked me in response.

Then Dr. Grandin wrote a piece for the Forward that confirms what I said.

And what do you do?

You continue to misrepresent and lie.

[Paul]

I have to say I'm totally at a loss to understand what you are referring to.

But given that we are all totally at a loss why you are on a crusade to ban European shechita when you know nothing about it, that shouldn't surprise us.

Maybe you just want to get back into the meat business and export it to us from Minnesota.

[Shmarya]

The problem for you, 'Paul,' is that I know a lot more about European shechita than you do.

[Apikorus Al Ha'esh]

Things are getting shrill here. Shmarya, sounds like you need some meds and a nap.

[Shmarya]

I don't like liars and I suffer fools poorly.

[Apikorus Al Ha'esh]

Keep practicing, Shmarya. You'll improve.

[Shmarya]

I doubt it. After all, I read the unintelligent crap that you post.

[Neo-Conservaguy]

Shmarya, at the risk of stepping in the way of the kashering flame thrower you seem to wield with such delight lately (you can take the blogger out of Chabad, but he won't give up the flame thrower?), I'll point out that in a previous thread on this topic I posted a video link that showed standing shechitah in England. Here is that link again (5 minute mark starts actual shechitah section):

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=drKgw7htc-I&feature=related

It's unclear to me if those are Grandin-designed pens, but it's also unclear that as much as I respect her knowledge and views, that she has a unique and solitary solution for those designs. I also don't see any obvious animal mistreatment in the brief scenes before the shechitah.

Paul, however, is incorrect stating that ALL shechitah is performed in the U.K. that manner. This video link shows that, in the opinion of the rabbis interviewed, the highest level of kashruth is achieved using the inverted pen (3 minute mark is the statement):

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZN2MaM4FjgY

I can't state I agree with that position (quite the opposite), but their attention to detail shown in this video is otherwise remarkable. Of course, it's a marketing video, but it's still an interesting view into that world.

[Shmarya]

Please.

The first video doesn't show shechita or any of the animal handling process or even the restraining pen.

And it's clearly staged – although Sky News probably did not realize that.

You have no way to make any judgement of that shechita based on what the video shows and your level of knowledge, let alone judging all British or European shechita based on it.

[Shmarya]

The second video shows cows on a small farm – not the type of cattle that are normally shechted.

It shows a Weinberg-like rotating pen.

The actual shechita is not shown. Neither is the animal handling before and after it.

And what you do see is staged.

You have no way to judge the humaneness of that shechita based on what you've seen – other than noting that rotating pens are inherently inhumane and take much additional work to make them passable.

Paul has consistently lied and misrepresented, and these videos do nothing to mitigate that.

[Shmarya]

It's unclear to me if those are Grandin-designed pens [in the first video], but it's also unclear that as much as I respect her knowledge and views, that she has a unique and solitary solution for those designs.

Please.

The standard pen in the industry is the ASPCA pen, originally designed by Grandin, and her well researched and documented views on animal handling in the slaughter process are the industry's gold standard.

[Apikorus Al Ha'esh]

I know you are, but what am I? Pfffft!

[masortiman]

shmarya

Ad hominem attacks come off very badly.

I am interested that NO one has followed up on my point about Ms Grandin and her career. Maybe Im wrong, but to me how we treat humans (and our mistreatment of humans with problems like autism is still quite a problem in our society) is more important than EITHER ritual observance OR concern for the pain of animals (though both of the latter are important. Before we become pure in our eating, either for kashrut or for animal welfare, or both, let us attempt to treat each other like people created Btselem Elohim.

[Shmarya]

Before we become pure in our eating, either for kashrut or for animal welfare, or both, let us attempt to treat each other like people created Btselem Elohim.

Exactly why do we have to become perfect at one mitzvah before we can address the others?

You make no logical or halakhic sense.

Past that, exactly why do you think you have the right to judge me?

You don't do what I do. You don't take the abuse I regularly take. You don't put yourself on the line every day.

Now why not respond with another painfully false dichotomy and a little more self-righteousness? And don't forget to whine a bit about being the "victim" of my latest "ad hominem" attack.

[Neo-Conservaguy]

The first video doesn't show shechita or any of the animal handling process or even the restraining pen.

And it's clearly staged – although Sky News probably did not realize that.

You have no way to make any judgement of that shechita based on what the video shows and your level of knowledge, let alone judging all British or European shechita based on it.

I offered no judgment - only evidence showing both standing and inverted shechitah in the U.K. While there is some editing to avoid showing the "action" at the moment of the cut, the first video in the section I noted shows several animals being killed. The knife goes up clean and comes down covered in blood. The angle of the cut is clearly shown (horizontal moving upward). Further, there is a clear show of the standing pen with head restraint at 5:49 as it's neck is hosed clean.

What in your opinion does "staged" mean and/or imply? Of course they knew in advance the video recording would take place. Sure, they are on "best behavior" and are putting the best possible spin on the practice of shechitah. My interest was in the scenes I mentioned, which offer facts without the spin of the dialog.

BTW, I've seen the "action" from about 6 feet away with a large animal, so I'm not a virgin when it comes to this topic. I'm also trying to figure out how to wrangle (no pun intended) a trip to some of the Triangle-K supervised locations to observe and report on the practices, which are supposed to be well-rated by Ms. Grandin (whom I've also spoken with - what a character).

[Shmarya]

Other than showing that standing and rotating pens are used in the UK, the videos have no value to this discussion.