The Four Sons Ask Questions About Haredi Child Sexual Abuse

The Rasha challenges the survivors, asking, "What are you doing to us?  Don't you know your allegations will harm the reputation of the community?"  These are the rodfim and those who have been enabling them.

 

The Four Sons
Jewish Board of Advocates for Children

The Four Sons in regard to sexual abuse in the frum community:

1) The Chochom asks, "What are the halachos in regard to child sexual abuse?" These are the ones who seek and follow the Pseiki Halacha of the Gedolim.  They establish safety protocols and make sure to report the rodfim directly to the police.

2) The Rasha challenges the survivors, asking, "What are you doing to us?  Don't you know your allegations will harm the reputation of the community?"  These are the rodfim and those who have been enabling them.

3) The Tam claims that such things do not and cannot happen in our frum communities.  These are the ones who deny that we could have such problems and exclaim, "It is NOT possible."

4) The Sheinu Yoadie Lishol has no voice. These are the survivors who do not have the freedom to express how they have been repeatedly abused by a community that refuses to help them and has instead covered up for these dangerous criminals. Many are no longer coming to any seder. This could also refer to all of our vulnerable kinderlach whose innocence has not yet been destroyed by the perpetrators among us.  The most basic prevention education - that predators are rarely strangers - could help protect countless more than four sons.

Comments

[A. Nuran]

Pretty much says it all. No further commentary is necessary.

[steve]

My version:

Chochom- The victims who go directly to the police and their advocates.

Rasha- The Enablers. (Ma Haavoda Hazois Lachem, What the hell are you doing, you presumptuous promoters? Niederman, Munkatcher, Menashe Klein, Belsky, Zwiebel, Perlow, et al)

Tam- Marvin Schick (Ma Zois, What abuse problem?)

Sheinoi Yoidea Lishol- More than half of the Orthodox community who have their heads buried deeply in the sand.

[Maskil]

Who is the רש"ע? was he a cousin of the רש"ל or perhaps a contemporary of רבנו תם mentioned in the post?

[theman]

yes--- this is such a rampant problem!!!
or perhaps its the exception to the rule.
now- having said that, one child is to many and the issue needs to be addressed and dealt with. but it shouldnt be presented as the rule of thumb for the orthodox community!!
it is just a lame and pathetic way for scott( shmarya) to make money by having people visit and read his website..

[Maskil]

Then let me ask you this: Do you agree with the famous statement that "It's better to let 100 guilty go free than one innocent be convicted" (-Benjamin Franklin)?

Okay, well how about this one: Do you agree it is better that 100 innocent children get sexually molested than convict one innocent man?

Shmarya? How about you? Your thoughts...

[A. Nuran]

Maskil, the purpose of an investigation and trial is to figure out who is innocent and who is guilty. If molesters know they will be reported when caught they will be much less likely to commit these crimes in the first place. If they know they will be protected from justice they will rape more little children.

The simple fact that they know what will or won't happen when they are caught makes a difference.

[Maskil]

A. Nuran,

I wasn't taking a stand on the issue of reporting them. I grew up with the saying of Ben Franklin, but when I thought of it rephrased I was faced with an inner conflict. I feel very strongly about a justice system where no one is wrongly convicted - even if many, many criminals go free to allow such a system. But when I think about the innocent victims of the guilty going free it seems someone innocent will always be hurt. And now I just don't know what kind of justice system I support in a world where there seems to be a constant dichotomy: Either a tougher criminal justice system that will see many innocent people imprisoned or what I used to consider a "just" criminal justice system that will see many innocent people violated.

[OMG]

Posted by: Maskil | April 11, 2011 at 05:01 PM

Let me quote you what Jeremy Bentham who in the 18th century was a theorist from the Classical School of thought wrote;

“we must be on our guard against those sentimental exaggerations which tends to give crime impunity, under the pretext of insuring the safety of innocence. Public applause has been, so to speak, set up to action. At first it was said to be better to save several guilty men, than to condemn a single innocent man; others, to make the maxim more striking, fix the number ten; a third made this ten a hundred, and a fourth made it a thousand. All these candidates for the prize of humanity have been outstripped by I know not how many writers, who hold, that, in no case, ought an accused person to be condemned, unless evidence amounts to mathematical or absolute certainty. According to this maxim, nobody ought to be punished, lest an innocent man be punished.”

[Maskil]

OMG,

You expressed exactly the inner dichotomy I am struggling with, and I don't have a way to resolve it.

That is why I asked for thoughts on the issue so I could contemplate it in a greater context and with a greater selection of opinions to contemplate to help myself come to a reasonable conclusion with which I am comfortable.

[steve]

Great idea, Maskil. Next time I see someone who claims to have been sexually abused, I will tell him to shut up and not report it to the police, lest he is a liar and a vicious fabricator and he will be sending an innocent man to jail.

[Maskil]

That's not what I said. The halacha is clear, the crime must be reported. While I don't abide by halacha unless I feel like it or it is convenient for me, I accept it and I am ideologically committed to it. If the halacha were to not report it (and I'm certain there are countries in the world that R' Elyashiv & co. would not agree to reporting the crime) I would rather be beaten to death if all signs pointed to me being a child molester - street justice style - and although innocent I'd understand - than to be falsely convicted and imprisoned in by corrupt system. But, again, the halacha is clear. And I hope, as A. Nuran does, that the justice systems are careful enough to convict only those who can truly be proven guilty. But I know that there will be cases where enough proof cannot be brought and the guilty will be spared for the sake of the innocent. And I seem to agree with a system that does not convict without concrete proof. But then I think of the number of innocent children who will be violated - exceeding the number who would be falsely convicted in a severely flawed justice system - and I feel conflicted on that point. But reporting? Definitely! And if there is a righteous man in Sodom who knows there is guilt although he lacks proof I'd like to see some street justice too. But I don't feel that even that would be enough. Anyone should be elligible to be reported, but an innocent man should not be imprisoned. Yet, I would like to know how we can assure that no child is molested at the same time - and it just doesn't seem like that can or will ever happen and there will always be thousands of victims no matter how much we obey Elyashiv's ruling. And this thought is heartrending.

[A. Nuran]

Maskil, if crimes are not reported all the guilty will go free, and a large number of children will be abused. Jews will grow up with the assumptions that child abuse is supposed to be tolerated and other Jews will not protect them from evil people in their midst.

If crimes are reported some of the guilty will, escape. Some much smaller number of innocents will be accused and of those a smaller number will be wrongly convicted. But the number of crimes committed will drop as criminals come to fear punishment. And many of those who still offend will be sent to prison. Jews will begin to fight evil rather than protecting it.

The system is not perfect. But it's infinitely better than the alternative. With greater engagement it will improve.

[steve]

SANTA MONICA CHABAD BOMBING SUSPECT RON HIRSH CAUGHT IN CLEVELAND! FBI TIPSTER SAW HIS PICTURE ON VIN:

http://www.vosizneias.com/80719/2011/04/12/chabad-synagogue-suspect-caught-in-ohio

[OMG]

Posted by: Maskil | April 11, 2011 at 06:26 PM

Dear perplexed Maskil, the simple truth is that the question if to report or not, is not even part of the debate. What type of evidence you need to convict and execute a convict, is the question, if it is really better to let some guilty go (not purposely) because there was not enough evidence to convict. In the 18th century there were deep discussions about this subject with numerous opinions, as jurisprudence developed, our country decided on a model of beyond reasonable doubt, but some people are still stuck in the 18th century argument that if you will deprive someone of his life the standard should be beyond any doubt. However, for the purpose of our discussion, nobody even the most liberal thinkers, will not put forward that a person should not even report a crime, because, maybe an innocent person will be eventually found guilty and incarcerated for some time, even if it is for 25 years. Society cannot function as an organized entity, if people would know they could take from the weak with no consequence. Therefore, even liberals as me, encourage victims of crime to go to the police and let the system do what it will. Finally, am I happy with our system that you have a large segment of minorities in jail? No and I am working on restoring sensible sentencing. Nevertheless, that will not negate the need to report crime to the police.

[Shlomo]

Steve the irony of your story above is that a VIN reader has saved an Aguda moisod -there is a God!

[Moshe aron Kestenbaum, Williamsburg ODA]

The Torah speaks of four children. One is wise, one is wicked, one is simple and one doesn’t know how to ask. What do they all have in common? One. As in, Hear O Israel, G‑d is your G‑d, G‑d is One.

The ultimate redemption of the world, the alta Rebbe taught, is not when it is filled with light. It is when the darkness itself will shine. When cold, academic intellect itself will declare, “There is nothing else but the Infinite Light. Nothing outside of it. Not even us
When the Wicked Wind Blows". When the kol kora's fly in every direction When the Shimon wieser's of the world scream and yell when these so called leaders declare themselfs leaders then will know that its the time or close to the time for the light to start shinning

[A E ANDERSON]

One: There's much in these pages, and elsewhere, about the "sexual abuse" of children. What does this apparent euphemism mean? Why don't we simply use buggery or sodomy, if that is indeed to what are referring. But "abuse" standing alone gives the reader no real clue what underlying deeds were done.

Two: We don't see much in classical Jewish literature about the (clearly sinful) desire to copulate with children. Why was this not a matter of concern in prior generations? Did rabbis 100 years ago not enjoy the pleasure of mikva sodomy, or whatever it is they are now accused of doing?

There are few human activities not treated by the Talmud, in all its breadth and depth. Why do rabbis who bugger seem to escape the discussions of Sura and Pumbeditha?

[Leibel Schenkel]

Upon which Rabbinical advisers does the Jewish Board of Advocates for Children rely?

[dave]

gavriel fagin is a Molesteror!