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April 01, 2011

Shechita Is More Humane, English Jews Say – Even Though It Is Not

Rubashkin_hook_2_3_2 'It is a popular myth that Shechita is a painful method of slaughter. In fact, there is ample scientific evidence to the contrary. The Shechita process requires the rapid uninterrupted severance of major vital organs and vessels which produces, inter alia, instant drop in blood pressure in the brain which results in the immediate and irreversible cessation of consciousness and sensibility to pain. Shechita incorporates an effective and irreversible stun, and it is both humane and efficient - producing a painless and effective stun and instant insensibility – followed without delay by immediate death.'

 

Shechita is not a painful method of slaughter, claims Jewish community
Jewish Shechita method of slaughter can be more human than stunning animals, claims Henry Grunwald OBE QC, Chairman of Shechita UK.

The Jewish Community is fully supportive of providing consumers with information about the origins of their food and we have urged MEPs that if they want to label meat and meat products, labels must include those stunned before slaughter by electrocution, shooting, gassing or clubbing as well as the many millions of animals that are mis-stunned during the stunning process. However, to single out one method is suspicious, troubling and discriminatory.

It is a popular myth that Shechita is a painful method of slaughter. In fact, there is ample scientific evidence to the contrary.

The Shechita process requires the rapid uninterrupted severance of major vital organs and vessels which produces, inter alia, instant drop in blood pressure in the brain.

This abrupt loss of pressure results in the immediate and irreversible cessation of consciousness and sensibility to pain, and since shechita incorporates an effective and irreversible stun, it is both humane and efficient - producing a painless and effective stun and instant insensibility – followed without delay by immediate death.

Furthermore, Shechita accounts for only 0.03 per cent of all animals slaughtered each year for food in the UK.

The real concern for animal welfare activists should be the far greater numbers of animals mis-stunned by captive-bolt or electro-narcosis every year.

Both DEFRA and Compassion for World Farming recognise the huge number of animals that are mis-stunned every year by captive bolt, electrocution and worse.

Those with a genuine concern for animal welfare would do well to turn their attention to that problem, rather than propagate ill-informed myths about religious slaughter.

Grunwald is not telling the truth.

Perfectly done standing shechita in an ASPCA pen will render an animal insensate in 15 seconds. Most schochtim, ritual slaughterers, working under the best condition, render an animal insensate in about 30 seconds.

By contrast, the best stunning renders an animal insensate in 1 to 3 seconds.

Mis-stunning, which is very rare using modern stun guns, is rectified by either re-stunning or shooting the animal, and is often accomplished in a matter of seconds after the mis-stun – meaning the animal is insensate before or at about the same time the average shechita-killed animal is rendered insensate.

You can see the process for smaller animals in this Compassion for World Farming video. CFWF is cited by Grunwald above. But Grunwald misrepresents CFWF's position, as you can see if you watch this video. By far, the most mis-stuns are done on pigs. The process for stunning pigs is different from the process used on cattle. Steers and cows are generally stunned by captive bolt because of their size. The video does not show any steer or cow slaughter, but it does show veal slaughter – which is done by a different method. Even so, the one mis-stun is corrected in a mtter of seconds, and the animal does not appear to be in any pain.

The CFWF video also shows a rotating pen similar to the one used at Agriprocessors and CFWF strongly condemns its use while noting it is used for ritual slaughter.

That pen has many problems. One of those problems is that its design tends to cause schochtim to make cuts that are too shallow, and that causes animals to remain conscious – sometimes for more than three minutes.

When a shochet's cut is too shallow, it can take several minutes to kill the animal because of the nature of the kosher slaughter process.

The 'scientific' material Grunwald deceptively mentions largely comes from the early 1900s and was for the most part commissioned by Orthodox Jews. It has long since been shown to be inaccurate. This 'scientific' material is some of the same 'scientific' material Nathan Lewin used to claim Agriprocessors slaughter was humane. No large animal biologist, veterinarian, government expert or animal welfare expert agreed with him.

Britain's Orthodox Jews could learn a lesson from that.

Unfortunately, they have not done so.

Comments

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I'd like to see some actual (scientifically documented) information on what the animal feels during the 15 to 30 seconds after shechita. How about after the animal is insensate? Further information on what an animal feels after stunning, and an accounting of the various methods of stunning in use would also helpful to understand the issues. An ECG study would probably be appropriate.

why do you want jews to not have shechita?
are you that bored living off yor parents money and not working that you somehow concoted that jews should eat treife?
if judaism is not for something then what is it?
also you ever think about getting a life? or married?

ITS A BUSINESS--- SCOTT IS TRYING TO MAKE MONEY VIA THIS BLOG!!!

Please...a quote(and not the best one available from Dr. Grandin, but I don't have time to deal with Shmarya's continued nonsense)from Temple Grandin:

"As each animal entered, I concentrated on moving the apparatus slowly and
gently so as not to scare him. I watched his reactions so that I applied only en
ough pressure to hold him snugly. Excessive pressure would cause discomfort.
If his ears were laid back against his head or he struggled, I knew I had
squeezed him too hard. Animals are very sensitive to hydraulic equipment. They feel
the smallest movement of the control levers.
"Through the machine I reached out and held the animal. When I held his head
in the yoke, I imagined placing my hands on his forehead and under his chin
and gently easing him into position. Body boundaries seemed to disappear, and I
had no awareness of pushing the levers. The rear pusher gate and head yoke
became an extension of my hand."
NOW THAT I was able to hold the animal gently, it was possible to observe its
reaction to shechitah. When shechitah was performed on each steer, I was
amazed that the animal did not move. To find out if shechitah was really painless,
I started holding the head of each animal with less and less pressure to see
if it would move during shechitah. Even big bulls stayed still when the head
holder was so loose they could have easily pulled their heads out.
I also observed that some shochets were better than others in their ability
to cause rapid unconsciousness. All of the cuts were correct from a religious
standpoint, but some shochets were more biologically effective. A swift cut was
more effective than a slower one. In the hands of the best shochets, the
animal does not make a sound or flinch, and drops unconscious in eight to 10
seconds."


Provocativeness for the sake of sheer grandstanding is unbecoming...kosher slaughter is at least as good as, and can be much better than, non-kosher..

Yoel:
Read the works of Temple Grandin. Ritual slaughter was at one time the most humane method of slaughter. The hanging of the animal prior to severance of the arteries induces fear and pain, definitely not humane. A more humane method would involve rendering the animal insensate prior to slaughter. The heart would continue to beat, however the animal could be turned without fear and pain. According to Grandin, she has made recommendations for Kosher and Halal slaughter. Whether or not shechita methods are altered to alleviate pain and suffering is another matter. We do tend to believe that we are right, no matter what evidence is offered to the contrary.

Provocativeness for the sake of sheer grandstanding is unbecoming...kosher slaughter is at least as good as, and can be much better than, non-kosher..

Posted by: JTB | April 01, 2011 at 10:01 AM

Idiot.

Having interviewed Dr. Grandin 3 times, and having covered her for almost 7 years, I know what she thinks and what she has said.

You take a quote out of context – from good shechita NOT haredi shechita, pre-Agriprocessors scandal, not inverted pen shechita, not hasidic shechita, not European shechita – and you pretend it covers all shechita.

You are either a liar, an idiot or, quite possibly, both.

Moron.

why look into shehita suffering when we have humanSs at brit milaH THE BABY IS CRYING AND EVEN GETS BLUE FROM THE INTENSE PAIN DOESNT TZAR BAL HAY APPLY TO HUMANS CAN ANYONE ANSWER ME ON THIS? and by humans the pain continues for days or weeks.

Whoa - we get the name calling going quiiiiickly! Touch a nerve there, did we, Shmarya? Dr. Grandin is on the record probably too many times to count as having said that there is nothing wrong with kosher slaughter. Grandin herself observed, in numerous consultations, shochtim rendering the animal insensate in 8 seconds. So I guess your statement that "the best shochtim working in the best conditions" get 30 seconds is wrong. False. Fraudulent.

Of course there are pens that are crappy, and pervert the shechita process. Of course there are operators that for the sake of an extra penny pressure the shochtim, provide inadequate equipment, and so on.Those operations should be censured.

But you are far more sweeping, and you make demonstrably false statements in defense of your ideoligical mindset.

Please apologise for your name calling, and for the false statements you made in support of your indefensible position.

Please apologise for your name calling, and for the false statements you made in support of your indefensible position.

Posted by: JTB | April 01, 2011 at 10:28 AM

You are an idiot and I won't apologize for pointing that out.

You take quotes from Dr, Grandin that precede the Agriprocessors scandal and ignore what she's said since then.

And you ignore the facts on the ground.

Now toddle off.

Please...stop lying...there are many recent Grandin quotes, post Agri, in which she supports her earlier statements and research. A cursory internet search - which I just di - shows that. So stop lying, stop the juvenile name-calling...be honest.

Moron.

I just looked and there are not "many recent Grandin quotes."

But there is this, which supports what I wrote even if you are too dense to understand that:
After affirming the humaneness of kosher schechita, Dr. Grandin takes issue with a new study in New Zealand that seemed to conclude that schechita causes pain to animals. Writes Dr. Grandin: “I have observed that cattle held in an upright restraint device had almost no reaction to correctly done slaughter that was performed with a special long knife.” She responds to those who advocate stunning the animals before schechita by saying that from her observations “it appears that when good practices are used, the steer or lamb will stay still and not react to the cut.”What you don't understand, perhaps because you don't have the capacity to understand, is that most glatt slaughter is not "correctly done" according to Grandin, and that "good practices" are not used.

Yep - that was the quote I saw - and in fact Dr.Grandin, entirely contrary to your inference, has seen and witnessed "good practices". It does NOT support your statement that "under the best conditions" shochtim only get 30 seconds. So - one more time- places where "best practices" are followed produce a very calm and quick result. I have observed one such place, though it is now no longer in business...

Like I said, you're a moron.

You take one quote, claim there are many when there are not, and then misunderstand and misrepresent it.

Are there good practices?

Yes.

Hebrew National, for example, where Dr. Grandin saw good things.

A Canadian plant doing regular kosher, not glatt, where Dr. Grandin saw good things.

But not at Alle, Agriprocessors, Agristar, or most European, Israeli and South American shechitas.

You're so completely ignorant you don't even know how stupid you look.

If anyone can watch this video and still maintain that shechita, as it is most COMMONLY practiced is humane, they need to have their head examined:
http://www.vosizneias.com/53228/2010/04/14/new-york-ny-peta-targeting-shechita%C2%A0again/

Jay –

That 2010 video contains a quote from Dr, Temple Grandin. She says the animal handling for that shechita is barbaric and cruel.

I wonder if JTB will notice that.

I'm sure he/she will find some way to rationalize a response.

To my knowledge, the Jewish=Torah method of animal slaughter (for the sake of human consumption) is not is not based on the fact that it is the most humane / lease painful to the animal.

Jews (try/should) follow Torah! The Torah prohibits needlessly causing pain and suffering to any living thing צער בעלי חיים. Yet the Torah allows for humans to consume meat/chicken (and fish) and prescribes an exact manner in which the “shchito” must be performed. (the torah states “וזבחת כאשר ציויתיך” and the particulars are in the oral torah).

In other words, Jews are compelled to perform shchito in the exact manner in which is prescribed by the TORAH, and cannot change it based on the needs/wants of some animal activists.

Some argue (with good reason), that the Torah method of Shchito is indeed also the most humane. But what you or someone else considers humane cannot and will not change or alter the eternal laws of the Torah.

The only once to decide how ritual slaughter shall be performed are the experts on Jewish law - orthodox Rabbonim. – the ones who are the experts on the interpretation of Torah Laws (no other ‘rabbonim’ and/or ‘experts’ (including shmarya and friends) who 1) know very little about the torah perspective of the issue and 1) say they don’t believe in the absolute truth of the Torah and תורה מסיני.

It’s very funny to watch all these גוים lecturing Jews what is humane and what is justice. Whether it’s regarding שחיטה, the land of Israel, ברית מילה etc. etc.

They are forgetting that (many of them are) the very last ones to preach morality and justice to the Jewish nation. Jews had morals & רחמנות on all living animals and especially on בני אדם long before the rest of the world even knew/understood what these things mean.

These very nations etc. preaching to us about being nice to animals – not too long ago – acted to human beings let alone animals etc. in the most cruel and barbaric ways.

Jews following the Torah way of life have discovered (and lived for the most part by) these fine qualities thousands of years ago, and continue unchanged to this very day.

Live and Let Us Live Freely in the way and according to the הלכות prescribed by הקדוש ברוך הוא!

Posted by: levi | April 01, 2011 at 12:00 PM

Please.

No country has to allow inhumane slaughter just because you want it.

Past that, the problems with shechitaq can largely be fixed without doing anything to modify halakha.

But your rabbis are far too obstinate (and, in some cases, far too ignorant) to do the right thing.

And so are you.

These very nations etc. preaching to us about being nice to animals – not too long ago – acted to human beings let alone animals etc. in the most cruel and barbaric ways.

Posted by: levi | April 01, 2011 at 12:10 PM

Yes, you're so right. The English slaughtered millions of Jews. [end heavy sarcasm]

Live and Let Us Live Freely in the way and according to the הלכות prescribed by הקדוש ברוך הוא!

Move to Israel if you want to torture and abuse animals for the sake of your version of religion. Don't make the rest of us eat the produce of your torture.

Past that, the problems with shechitaq can largely be fixed without doing anything to modify halakha.

But your rabbis are far too obstinate (and, in some cases, far too ignorant) to do the right thing.

Shmarya, based on what facts to you make these outrageous comments??? Based on your knowledge and understanding???

What qualifies you to make these childish and uneducated (at best) claims? Are you a רב, מורה הוראה בפועל with intricate knowledge and real life experiancce in the laws of שחיטה, טריפות etc. etc.? Do you even believe in Torah Misinai? do you believe in the absolute truth in both תורה שבכתב and תורה שבעל פה?

You sit there making bombastic claims without any basis, knowledge and Halachic authority.

Yes, we've always been the kindest and most humane of peoples. We didn't commit genocide against the Canaanites. We didn't slaughter the men of the tribe of Benjamin.

Shmarya is 100% right. All it takes to correct shechita is to modify the restraints in ways that are already accepted halachically. Don't attack him on this issue just because you are arrogant and ignorant.

“Yes, you're so right. The English slaughtered millions of Jews. [end heavy sarcasm]”

So the English and other European counties who attempted to ban Shchito for way over a century were big אוהבי ישראל… they didn’t expel Jews from their land for who knows how long and participate in many other ‘Jew loving’ activities over the last 1000 years…

“Move to Israel if you want to torture and abuse animals for the sake of your version of religion. Don't make the rest of us eat the produce of your torture.

No one is making you eat anything! No one (as far as most consumers are concerned) has any problems with kosher. These groups are trying to rouse up and develop opposition against what they consider inhumane – targeting only shchito (and adding halal just to make it look ‘even’…)They are deliberately targeting Jewish customs and practices.

“Move to Israel”? do Jewish people not have a right to live peacefully among other nations unless they accept to act in a way you and our other “אוהבי ישראל” deem correct?

What qualifies you to make these childish and uneducated (at best) claims?

Idiot.

For starters, I had extensive discussions with and done interviews with poskim, animal welfare experts, and shechita industry professionals over a period of almost seven years.

Past that, I've worked in shechita and I know dozens of shochtim.

And, unlike you, I did not contain my learning to Chabad.

“Shmarya is 100% right. All it takes to correct shechita is to modify the restraints in ways that are already accepted halachically. Don't attack him on this issue just because you are arrogant and ignorant.”

Bottom line: no changes are ever made to the torah to accommodate people’s wishes and desires.

The only ones authorized to decide how Jewish ritual practices will take place are רבנים, פוסקים מורי הוראה בפועל who have the legal/torah authority and believe in the ultimate truth of the entire Torah. NO ONE ELSE! Including the biggest expert in the world on ‘humanity’.

Such a dull mind you have, Levi.

First of all, the issue here is that about 65% of kosher slaughtered meat is sold as non-kosher.

Europeans want that meat labeled as the "killed by ritual slaughter" so the thousands of Europeans who think shechita is inhumane can buy other meat.

That is what European Jews are objecting to.

Past that, you are clearly an ignoramus. You write: "Bottom line: no changes are ever made to the torah to accommodate people’s wishes and desires."

That is absolutely false as anyone who has ever seriously learned poskim knows.

Past that, as Jay pointed out and as I noted earlier, the changes that have to be made have nothing to do with changing Torah law.

Process that.

“For starters, I had extensive discussions with and done interviews with poskim, animal welfare experts, and shechita industry professionals over a period of almost seven years.
Past that, I've worked in shechita and I know dozens of shochtim.”

Shmarya, “animal welfare experts, and shechita industry professionals” have no relevance to this.

Unless you can provide me with documented, published Piskey Halacha from world renowned Poskim who are accepted by the mainstream of FRUM yiden and communities, proving that the changes you are suggesting are 1000% acceptable על פי הלכה and מהודר לכתלילה! Then we can begin the conversation.

If you cannot provide this – in writing – then all your ramblings, interviews with as many people as you want to call “professionals” will not help.

Shabbat Shalom!


Shmarya, Please explain to me your obsession in Halacha and always trying to find ways to change it, when according to you - you don’t even believe in the absolute truth of the Torah and Mitzvot!

If you don’t believe in Torah Misinai, why voice your opinions about halacha? (my same question goes to reform and conservative rabbis).

Posted by: levi | April 01, 2011 at 12:45 PM

Such a dull mind.

Again, try to process.

Most of the changes that need to be made do not involve changing or modifying any halakha.

The only controversial change that might have to be made would be stunning before shechita. The Sridei Eish accepted this when the method of stunning was much more problematic than what is done today.

But that could be avoided by making the other changes, which, again, do not involve changing any halahot.

Now toddle off and go bow down to that dead messiah of yours.

Jews had morals & רחמנות on all living animals and especially on בני אדם long before the rest of the world even knew/understood what these things mean.

Posted by: levi

what on earth are you talking about? jews who followed the torah would sacrifice i.e. slaughter innocent animals just to please god who must have really liked the smell of burnt flesh. the navi contains stories of the jews being told to kill every last person AND ANIMAL after certain conquers. are those examples of the rachmanus and morals you speak of?
and the torah permitted jews to own other humans as their slaves. is that more of the morals and rachmanus you refer to?
every society that existed before jews had rules pertaining to the treatment of others as a matter of obvious necessity. the egyptian book of the dead , which preceeded the torah had many rules later copied by the torah.
is it permitted to say anything at all, regardless of its truth when defending judaism and halacha? or is it in fact required to delude ones self ?

Shmarya, based on your experience and knowledge, do you think it would help if the shochtim got supplementary training by expert Japanese kendo sword masters, in the sense that it might make them able to do the shechting process much faster and more accurately, and also be much more careful to keep their instruments sharp? This is a serious question.
I would sincerely appreciate your response.

I didn't realize it, but Dr. Temple Grandin addressed the issues raised in the agriprocessors PETA video: http://www.grandin.com/ritual/qa.cattle.insensibility.html

It would seem from Grandin's writing that you're exaggerating quite a bit, Shmarya.

Levi, you can't get it through your head, can you? Humane restraints have ALREADY been accepted by halachic authorities. Most plants simply refuse to use them because of ill-perceived economic factors.

Posted by: Dave | April 01, 2011 at 01:52 PM

No.

I didn't realize it, but Dr. Temple Grandin addressed the issues raised in the agriprocessors PETA video: http://www.grandin.com/ritual/qa.cattle.insensibility.html

It would seem from Grandin's writing that you're exaggerating quite a bit, Shmarya.

Posted by: Yaakov | April 01, 2011 at 02:22 PM

No, although it would appear you have serious reading comprehension issues.

eating animals is just gross-try a raw food vegan diet for a week-you will not believe how much better you feel-its not easy to do, (nothing worthwhile ever is) but at least you will experience how good you can feel-On the weeks that I do this, I feel spiritually elevated, mentally sharper, and much more energetic.-and nothing had to die!!!

++tooclose2detroit | April 01, 2011 at 04:01 PM++

Agreed!

IMO, Levi is right about one thing (and only one): Shechita really doesn't have to have anything to do with acting humanely or ensuring the animal doesn't suffer. I think Jews just perpetuated that belief to make themselves look and feel good. They never envisioned a more humane way, like stunning, coming out. I find it ironic that anyone would use the "it is humane" argument to justify shechita, as if it needs justification beyond "this is our religion."

As for the argument that Shechita is somehow more humane: that's a bunch of bull. The article is comparing Shechita done 100% correctly with stunning done wrong. When proper stunning is compared to proper Shechita (and who gets to decide what is proper Shechita? Rubashkin? The OU?), it is obvious stunning is more humane.

The bottom line is, 99% of people who like to eat meat don't really care how the animal died. They just want their meat cheap. If you put out meat at $6.99 a pound with one hechsher next to meat $3.99 a pound with another hechsher, most people will buy the cheaper meat and not ask questions.

Rivka, if people will eat cheaper meat with another hechsher, please tell me why the frumma won't touch Hebrew National.

Can someone please explain why the frumma don't approve of Hebrew National? You know that 'glatt' is only a USA phenomenon. Nobody insisted on 'glatt' in pre-war Europe.

"as if it needs justification"--- some religious practices DO need justification. The Torah mentions a lot of death penalty and flogging punishments, and if the community were to do that, you'd be in prison.
Although, I do agree with you on the point, because some Jews will justify kosher as being healthier, and we know that health and kashrus are unrelated.

Sadly, the best commentary is the quote from the Israeli Chief Rabbinate, who said "gratuitous cruelty does not disqualify the meat".
That's the summary of kosher slaughter today in the post-Rubashkin era.
It used to be "we have to answer to a Higher Authority".

Religious Jews have stunned themselves into accepting gratuitous cruelty to animals just to fress meat from their hero with the big yichus, Rubashkin.

We need to put to bed the idea that there is something wrong with European shechita.

The Brits slaughter in a standing pen. They don't use the rotating pen. Glatt doesn't change the method of slaughter just the amount of treifos.

And the comment about the Sridei Eish is outrageous. He accepted it when the Nazis tried and succeeded to ban shechita in Germany. All the other major rabbis told him he would create a dangerous precedent for the future and they were right. We shouldn't criticise the Sridei Eish for allowing something during terrible times. But to suggest that it was because he believed in stunning is an outrage.

As I've said on a number of occassions on another posting here, this issue has nothing to do with stunning, it has to do with labeling and the only meat and method of slaughter is Jewish slaughter which will have that label. That is discrimination, yes, it is putting a yellow star on Jewish meat.

And the reason it is being done is because of the vast amounts of Halal meat on the general market and in spite of that it won't be the Muslims who are affected.

European Jewish slaughter has nothing in common with Rubashkin, and none of the people you wantonly attack here Shmarya are hareidi Jews. They are just your regular Jews concerned for their community to have access to kosher meat.

I am frankly shocked by your level of animosity to what is essentially all shechita and your willingness to deny kosher meat to European Jews from the confort of Minnesota. It is sick.

And when you misrepresent Dr Grandin, that is even sicker.

Paul, of course this has everything to do with stunning.

The Welfare of Animals (Slaughter) Regulations 1995 provide for the all animals to be stunned accept those killed 'by the Jewish method for the food of the Jews by a Jew..'. A similar provision exists in respect of Muslim slaughter however given that most Muslims now stun cattle, they do not take advantage of their exemption.

As Jews are in effect the only segment allowed to slaughter without stunning than any curtailment of this exemption will only be effect Jews!

To argue that this is discriminatory is like arguing that the Race Relations Act is anti white because most discriminatory practices were by whites!

Labeling is not intended to curtail the sale of kosher meat to Jews. It is intended to curtail the sale of kosher meat to gentiles which in any event is unlawful seeing that the 1995 regulations stipulate that the Jewish method can only be used FOR THE FOOD OF THE JEWS.

The unlawful forcing of kosher meat on unsuspecting gentiles for purely commercial reasons may well lead to shechita being prohibited.

Dr Grandin is as well known in the UK as the captain of the England cricket team is in the USA. The objections to kosher slaughter in the UK come from the Farm Animal Welfare Council and the British Veterinary Association

http://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/home-news/end-cruel-religious-slaughter-say-scientists-1712241.html

I am frankly shocked by your level of animosity to what is essentially all shechita and your willingness to deny kosher meat to European Jews from the confort of Minnesota. It is sick.

And when you misrepresent Dr Grandin, that is even sicker.

Posted by: Paul | April 02, 2011 at 02:35 PM

1. I'm upset by Cohen's lies and by your lies.

2. Dr. Grandin does not say that all shechita is humane. She says that properly done shechita – following the training she and others teach – is humane. But regulat shechita – like the kind haredim regularly do – is often not humane, because the animal handling pre-shechita is very poor, and because the schochtim often make shallow cuts to protect their knives from potential damage.

3. As for pre-stunning, the methods used to stun today do not render the animal treife (except for the automatic knocker, which does under nearly all understandings of halakha). Yet you and the rabbis you shill for lie about this, just as you lie about stun rates and scientific evidence.

4. Am I against shechita? No. I'm against lying, and I'm against needless animal cruelty – two things Cohen and your rabbis care little about.

Paul, I don't know what issue you are responding about, but the post was about the article written by the "Chairman of Shechita UK" claiming that shechita is as humane/more humane than stunning. Therefore I don't understand how you can write "this issue has nothing to do with stunning, it has to do with labeling and the only meat and method of slaughter is Jewish slaughter which will have that label." Am I to understand now that the Chairman wants people to think it doesn't deserve a label because it is so humane? How does this even make sense?
I am very confused. Jews label their own meat as kosher. It is called a hechsher. Now someone else wants to label the meat as kosher meat. A label by a mashgiach is okay, but a label by a gentile is not?

Shmarya, you responded to JTB by saying: "You take a quote out of context – from good shechita NOT haredi shechita, pre-Agriprocessors scandal, not inverted pen shechita, not hasidic shechita, not European shechita – and you pretend it covers all shechita."

And then you quoted Grandin yourself and highlighted where she said "correct shechita" (to highlight the difference with shechita improperly done, where her opinion would obviously be different).

But Shmarya, you did not attack incorrect shechita with this post. You attacked ALL SHECHITA. I was actually quite surprised by the way you responded to JTB because you admitted that proper shechita is humane. But I never would have expected that after reading the article you wrote above!

You even said: "You take a quote out of context – from good shechita NOT haredi shechita, pre-Agriprocessors scandal, not inverted pen shechita, not hasidic shechita, not European shechita – and you pretend it covers all shechita."

You did attack all shechita with this post. Do you think that everyone else besides you is an idiot?

RE: BRIT MILAH AND THE PAIN. ABSOLUTELY NOBODY SHOULD ALLOW THEIR SON TO BE CIRCUMCISED BY A NEIGHBORHOOD MOHEL; IT SHOULD BE DONE ONLY BY AN MD WITH ANESTHESIA.

THE DISGUSTING ACT OF SUCKING CIRCUMCISION BLOOD OUT WITH THE MOUTH SHOULD BE OUTLAWED UNDER PAIN OF DEATH.

So now it's "haredi shechita" that's no good....you're such a confused and obfuscating liar that you ( like Palin,Bachmann, and all the rest) don't even realize when you've contradicted yourself, and then you lie about it to boot .

So...here's the deal : there are undoubtedly "bad" "haredi" plants where "lesser" shochtim MAY do the kill less skillfully. The number of plants - in the US alone - where shechita takes place has exploded. Places like Alle have multiple plants where their shechita takes place, and the situation changes now literally almost weekly, which is neither good for the kosher consumer ( it has become very difficult to monitor the situation with the ever-changing conditions) or for kosher standards generally. Hard data as to actual conditions in these plants has not been gathered, and for you to make blanket statements about the industry overall is at best inaccurate and at worst slanderous. Grandin herself has stated that she has observed "good" shechita taking place - she has definitely been to "haredi" places as well, and has observed "good" shechita in those places. And finally, nobody really knows how stunning effects the animal - all we know is that in a few seconds - in the "best" scenario - the animal is insensate. We have never been able to ask an animal, though, if it hurts. Have you ever been stunned, Shmarya?

I'm not going to think about all this when I eat my next shawarma - with chips and fried egg plant. Yum.

I think we can boil down most of the arguments here (and on this website in general ) into 2 general groups.

1 – The regular/popular posters on this website, including it’s editor who have deep trouble accepting the divinity of the Torah and Mitzvot and the sole authority of Rabbinical authority to interpret the laws of the Torah.

To them, whenever one presents an opinion form “animal experts” or “experts on ethics” – the automatic assumption is that these secular/non Jewish experts are 100% correct, and we Jews must find a way to conform to (what they consider) the current “norms” that these “experts” espouse.

This is true when it comes to Kosher, Shchita or any other aspect of life for that matter. Current norms and morals are accepted as the absolute truth and therefore the torah/Jewish practice must be brought up to speed with the 21st century (even if some things are to be changes).

It may be, that to this group, the Torah and it’s laws are regarded similar to local township laws. If you disagree with current law, you would lobby, pressure and try to elect individuals who will change the laws to reflect what YOU consider right and just.

2 - On the other had you have a group who consider the Holy Torah and the Mizvot to be divine, given to the entire Jewish nation by G-d himself at Mt. Sinai. This being the case, they believe that NOTHING – not even the opinion of the biggest expert in the world can change even 1 iota of ANY detail - as minute as it may be - of the Torah or mitzvot.

To this group, the ONLY ones who can determine if something is acceptable in the view of the Torah are competent, practicing orthodox Rabbonim – Poskim who are well known and that their Halachic rulings are accepted by the mainstream orthodox community. (if there is dispute among the prominent poskim, then they would go by the opinion of a majority or the more prominence/accepted. (the opinion of “pulpit rabbi’s”, ‘experts’ or non orthodox rabbi’s mean very little in these issues).

So arguing back and forth is really futile as the basic premise and foundation behind these 2 groups are diametrically apposed. Either the Torah is Devine and therefore UNCHANGABLE or it’s man-made and can be totally discarded.

This analysis is not just regarding this specific article, but rather pertains to MANY arguments on this website. Just my 2 cents.

Just to add: in the world view of group #2 (above) true MORALS and JUSTICE, they way to handles other creatures etc. is determined ONLY by Hashem – the creator of all beings - via his Torah (-the blueprint of the world).

Religious slaughter is carried on within a big business model that is only profitable using high speed lines of factory farming and slaughter. To call is humane is an oxymoron. It is not possible for the religous slaughter of today to be considered humane under any standards. To compare it to ordinary slaughter or to introduce the wrongs of non-religious slaughter should be no part of any productive dialogue. To cite the old adage: "Two wrongs do not make a right."
Considered with the bare essentials of logic, the religous slaughter camp has no argument whatsoever. The opposition from the anti-relious slaughter side is growing stronger by the day, whether motivated by concern for animals or the unfairness (that fosters parasitism) of church and state issue. The matter will not go away and the anti-religious slaughter proponents will find more and more influence on public policy. It's a fact. Get used to it fressers.

…Grandin herself has stated that she has observed "good" shechita taking place - she has definitely been to "haredi" places as well, and has observed "good" shechita in those places.…

Posted by: Jtb | April 03, 2011 at 07:18 AM

Actually, I spoke with her about this. The good shechita she was referring to was done in a couple plants linked to Hebrew National.

That same shechita could be done at Alle plants, for example, but the owners and the shechita companies need to want to do it, and so far they don't – even though *no* change in the halakhas is required to make it happen.

@tooclose2detroit:
I've had the privilege of studying a number of dietary systems over the years, including orthomolecular medicine, naturopathy, macrobiotics and ayurveda. I was, long ago, certified as an ayurvedic counselor.

I would respectfully suggest that a raw food vegan diet is fine for a short time- however it can cause issues due to poor nutrient absorption in some people. Also, anyone who's vegan would do well to consider an occasional iron supplement and a regular B-12 supplement.

This whole thing is quite stupid. We dont shecht because it is less painful. We Shecht the way we do because it is a HALOCHA L'MOSHE M'SINAI! That is what HKB"H told us to do. Is it less painful? Maybe but that is NOT the reason. In fact when we do it, we have to make sure to do it in as least pain as possible AS MANDATED BY HALOCHA and NOT by some meshugina animal loving scientist.

Those with misplaced love for animals are destined to kill humans.

HKB"H HALOCKA L'MOSHE M'SINAI! which means Holy Fucking Shit or SWEET FUCK ALL.

Mark Levin, go back to VIN where the other mentally ill frumma welcome you.

>some meshugina animal loving scientist

Now this sort of name calling is not allowed on this blog. You should not engage in name calling just because someone might have aspergers or autism, or whatever the case may be; i obviously have no idea who you might be talking about. Moreover, if you scroll back you will see high minded discussion without unfactually based name calling. Further, as the blog rules state, logic is to be the fabric of discussion here. Consider this logic: frum Jews are the main consumers to of kosher meat, therefore if someone was sincerely interested in producing kosher meat without animal suffering they would never engage in name calling towards frum Jews because that would alienate precisely the population who are the future allies who would be the ones to be persuaded to follow Temple Grandin recommendations that would alleviate animal suffering while producing kosher, al pi Halachah, meat. You should note that Temple Grandin is a professional and never engages in name calling: her only goal is her alleviating animal suffering.

As soon as you claim that an obviously inappropriate and gratuitously cruel act is good because God Sez So, you prove that you're a religious fanatic capable of justifying any behavior.

Tudres and Levin, you two are the most likely to be "...destined to kill humans..." and justify it as being because God Sez So.

Hear! Hear! Yoel M. and WSC!

Thanks yidandahalf.

It's always amusing when VIN has a visiting team here. The CAPITAL LETTERS are a dead giveaway. All rational argument is replaced with "because God Sez So". And because God Sez So, if you diagree, it's ok to commit violence against you. Also ok is to lie, cheat, and steal from you.

So arguing back and forth is really futile as the basic premise and foundation behind these 2 groups are diametrically apposed. Either the Torah is Devine and therefore UNCHANGABLE or it’s man-made and can be totally discarded.


I hope you have a change to learn over time that this statement is a false dichotomy, even to many who consider themselves "religious", such as myself.
As one simple example for you, our rabbinic sages of the Mishnah and Talmud ruled definitely that the testimony of a non-Jewish expert is believed with regard to the sharpness of a knife used for slaughter. How does that fit into your claim that:

To them, whenever one presents an opinion form “animal experts” or “experts on ethics” – the automatic assumption is that these secular/non Jewish experts are 100% correct, and we Jews must find a way to conform to (what they consider) the current “norms” that these “experts” espouse.

It would seem that YOU are going AGAINST our rabbinic sages with this position. Learn, and be well.

Good comment, Neo. I was not aware of that source, myself. Good to know.

I've had the privilege of studying a number of dietary systems over the years, including orthomolecular medicine, naturopathy, macrobiotics and ayurveda. I was, long ago, certified as an ayurvedic counselor.
Jay

Thank you Jay-I will do more research-Perhaps it is just the detoxifying effects of the raw food diet that caused such a wonderful feeling, but, as you say, it may need to be modified for long term usage.

Shmarya

The headline said "shechita" not haredi shechita, agriprocessors shechita, etc.

There are people in europe trying to ban ALL shechita.

That is why many are taking offense, and pointing out that Temple Grandin said and says that SOME kosher shechita is humane.

If you want to make it clear that you are discussing haredi shechita, or whatever, you could easily address that in your headline.

The idea that shechita is "more humane" than stunning is ludicrous, and Cohen's 'scientific' claims are ludicrous, as well.

These are all the long-ranging effects of the Rubashkin hillul hashem. The issue of cruelty during shechita, a topic which was dormant for a long time, is now front and center.
And don't blame PETA. Rubashkin did the crime, PETA gave him numerous chances to clean up his act. He refused, so they went public with it. The frumma have nobody to blame except their beloved Meat Messiah.

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