Rabbi Elyashiv Forbids Soft Matzoh – Or Does He?

Meanwhile, a source in Australia managed to get me a copy of a letter sent to the Australian Jewish News early Friday morning Australia time by the rabbi who supervises Australia's soft matzoh production:

Dear Sir,
 
I submit the following for publication in response to Zeddy Lawrence's article, "Going soft on Matza" April 8, 2011
 
Hillel, who is celebrated in our Hagadah for making a sandwich, in fact did no such thing. Hillel ate a wrap not a sandwich. The word Korech means to roll up. Hillel rolled up his Matza and ate Marror and meat of the Paschal lamb inside his Matza.
 
There is no question that the great-grandparents of our great-grandparents were eating soft Matza. At that time there was no other Matza but soft Matza. It was baked daily or every other day as a soft pita type of bread. Soft Matza  is a living tradition widely maintained by the Sefaradi communities.
 
Our greatest Halachic Authorities of the Ashkenasi traditions, the Mishneh Berurah, the BaAl HaTanya and the Aruch HaShulchan all speak of soft Matza as a perfectly acceptable and normal product.
 
Rabbi Schachter, head of Yeshivah University and consulting authority for OU Kashrut, has written that Jews of all backgrounds may eat soft Matza.
 
HaRav Elyashiv has inspected samples of Exodus soft Matza and approved them for Jews of all traditions. This was relayed to me in writing by HaRav Z Weitman the Rav of Tnuva. This information, facsimiles and more is available on the ExodusMatza website. Unattributed statements circulated in HaRav Elyashiv's name lack credibility.
 
Matza became a dry hard product in order to give it a prolonged shelf life. My research has found no mention in any Halachic work suggesting that Matza should be dry and hard. I invite comment through my email, rabbi@itskosher.com.au.
 
I will also affirm that Matza manufactured under my Kosher certificate is made to the highest Kosher-for-Passover standards and is likely to be the most Mehudar Matza available today. It is made with speed that can not be matched by other hand or machine processes; from Kosher for Passover flour that I have supervised from harvest; is baked to the strictest Halachic standards, and contains no Kitniyot.

Rabbi Rabi's website explains the origin of hard matzoh:

Matza according to Halacha and our ancient traditions was soft and thick, resembling a very thick pita. Flour and water were kneaded as a soft dough and placed in a mud oven or on hot bricks. The heat converted the moisture in the dough to steam which inflated the product. Yemenite Jews still bake their soft matza in an oven called a tabun.

Soft Matza is still a widely maintained practice amongst Sefardic communities. This Matza is soft and thick and is delicious when fresh but quickly becomes stale and mouldy. It is not surprising that the Halacha and tradition provide guidance for baking fresh Matza during the festival of Pesach. The Aruch Hashulchan records it thus: “It is known that in the early times, they did not bake all of their matzos before Pesach, but bake them fresh daily.”

Rabbi Moshe Isserlis, the Rama (1520- 1572 CE), suggests that Matza should no longer be made as thick as one Tefach, about 5cm. He says, “Matza should be made like ‘rekikin’ since rekikin become Chametz less quickly”

Rama was not referring to what we today call Rekikin, wafers. The Rekikin referred to by the Rama were as thick as an Etzba,12 mm thick (BaEr Heitev quoting the Beis Hillel). It is impossible that Matzos of that thickness were baked hard and dry.

It appears that the Rama is following the remarkable ruling of Rashi from Pesachim (37a DH Osin Serikin) that thin dough does not become Chamets as quickly as thick dough.

The trend towards hard dry Matza was prompted by the preference not to bake fresh Matza during Pesach and that in order to provide an extended shelf life it was made dry and hard. It is likely though, that the first move was to make it hard and dry in order to guarantee its shelf life. Following this it was made thinner in order to make it easier to chew. This occurred well after the Rama wrote his comment about Rekikin.

As long as ordinary people were baking bread at home all year round, they were familiar with and competent at handling dough. They could easily follow instructions and make Matza on Pesach without risk of making Chamets. One must keep in mind that Chametz produced during Pesach is a far more severe prohibition than Chametz produced before and somehow found in our food or property during Pesach. However, as the communities became more sophisticated, they stopped baking their own bread at home and lost those skills. It now became uncomfortably risky to bake Matza daily during Pesach at home. This prompted the gradual move away from baking Matza during Pesach and having it all baked in advance of Pesach.

And that is the story of how soft Matza became Hard Matza.

Now lets take another look at what the RCV claims Rabbi Elyashiv said:

Note that if this statement is really from Rabbi Elyashiv, he tells two lies:

1. Ashkenazi Jews have no tradition to eat soft matzoh.

2. They [apparently Ashkenazi rabbinic leaders] have never allowed Ashkenazim to eat soft matzoh.

All Jews, Ashkenazi, Sefardi, Yemenite, Italian, Greek, Mizrachi, Central Asian, and Ethiopian ate soft matzoh until 300 to 500 years ago, and as Rabbi Rabi notes, many of these communities continue to eat soft matzoh today.

Hard cracker-like matzoh appears to have originated in Eastern Europe and its use there apparently became widespread during the middle to late 1600s.

Hard matzoh is an innovation. It is a change from what was the universal Jewish tradition for as long as Passover was celebrated. And any conditions that may have existed that prompted the use of hard matzoh no longer exist today.

Soft matzoh can be frozen after baking and then thawed for use. Even without freezing, plastic bags keep bread products fresh much longer than bread boxes (remember those?) or cloth wraps.

Rabbaynu Gershom ate soft matzoh. Rashi ate soft matzoh. Rabbaynu Tam ate soft matzoh. The Tosofists ate soft matzoh. The Rema ate soft matzoh.

There is no basisi in fact to say Ashkenazim have "no tradition to eat soft matzoh" or that Ashkenazi rabbinic leaders "have never allowed the eating of soft matzoh."

Further, there is no clear halakhic reason or explanation for the use of hard matzoh. It seems to be something that happened bit by bit over a period of years – much like the American consumer's shift from very mild, bland coffee prevalent in the 1950s through 1970s, to the more flavorful darker roast coffees we tend to use today – except the shift did not take place due to taste. Instead, it appears to have taken place due to convenience or out of necessity.

But this shift did not leave an identifiable halakhic trail.

If the RCV is accurately representing Rabbi Elyashiv, it should be clear that Rabbi Elyashiv has made a serious error.

Of course, the error – or lie – could be the fault of the RCV or one of Rabbi Elyashiv's handlers.

And, chances are, we'll never know which it is.

Related Post: Rabbi Hershal Schachter approves soft matzoh for all Jews.

Update 4-10-11 8:37 am CST – Rabbi Rabi has now sent the following message to his email list:

Shalom Friends,

I must convey that it has been reported to me in the name of Rav Dovid Aryeh Morgenstein, that HaRav Elyashiv is opposed to Ashkenasim eating soft Matza on Pesach.
Part of the report to me included the following, "Rav Elyashiv said the person representing Australia wanted to claim that there is no minhag there, to which Rav Elyashiv answered that if they are Ashkenazim they may not eat soft matzos even in Australia." This does not comport with the message I received earlier, see http://www.realmatza.com/harav-elyashiv.html
לרבי מאיר שלום רב,
 
ביקשתי מחבר לקחת את המצות שהשארת לי לרב יוסף שלום אלישיב שליט"א והרב אלישיב ראה את המצות ואמר שהצורה והרכות שלהן איננה מעכבת ואיננה מפריעה לכשרותן.
 
בברכה,
 
זאב וייטמן
I do not understand the reversal but must report this and have similarly updated the website.

Comments

[Jeff]

So once again, it comes down to Ashkenazi triumphalism. Who'da thought?

I've come to think the Ashkenazim, particularly the Litvaks (of which I'm one), really did ruin the whole thing.

[skeptical]

I do not understand who cares what RYSE says one way or the other outside of his people. If you are not part of his group, why can't you just ignore him? If so, then why diss those who chose to be a part of the group?

[Garnel Ironheart]

This group of Chareidim simply rewrite history to fit their current views.
Sthreimls are a leftover relic of the Mongolian occupation of eastern Europe. Instead of recognizing that, they say that Moshe Rabeinu wore one at Sinai.
Soft matzah are actually the authentic original matzah so instead they simply write it out of history.

[R. Wisler]

What does soft matzo taste like? Is it generally available in the Jewish groceries?

[A. Nuran]

R. Wisler - have you ever had chapati or roti? They're a lot like that.

[R. Wisler]

Thanks A. Nuran. Now I have an idea of what they're like. Can you actually buy them anywhere? I used to live in Seattle and even there, with their huge Sefardic population, couldn't find soft matzos.

[jay]

There are a few factories making soft matzah. It's about the same price as shmura matzah. I enjoy it, unlike hard matzah. One can really make a fajita, sandwich, burrito or such with it!

[the usual chaim]

"Hard cracker-like matzoh appears to have originated in Eastern Europe and its use there apparently became widespread during the middle to late 1600s."

no, later. the alter rebbe clearly refers to soft matzah and he was active after that. it is something that developed in the last 150 yrs. the problem is that haredim look at the present and project backwards instead of developing a properly historical sense of time

[A. Nuran]

R. Wisler, you can order them from SoftMatzo.com. I don't know where else unless you want to make your own like this guy did. Kosher for Pesach wheat or flour is left as an exercise to the reader.

[Esty]

Yay! B"H for Rabbi Rabi! Poor bugger gets given a hell of a time from the other rabbis here in Melbourne just cuz he doesnt do as they do and he has a mind between his ears

[Shlomo]

The funny thing is that the RCV although being a roof body for all Melbourne Rabbis it is dominated by Chabad Rabbis and you wouldn't expect Chabad to accept Rav Elyashiv as their Posek

[Hometown Postville]

Hard, soft, crispy, creamy... I have a hard time believing that G-d looks upon us with disdain if we stray from these man-made idiosyncrasies.What matters more is what we do with our time here on earth and it looks like the makers of theses "rules" are not using their time wisely. Judge yourself, not your neighbor. Only G-d can provide the final answer in the end.

[Maskil]

Shlomo has an excellent point, placing reasonable doubt on the RCV's version in the name of Rabbi Elyahsiv.

Shmarya writes:

Of course, the error – or lie – could be the fault of the RCV or one of Rabbi Elyashiv's handlers.

And, chances are, we'll never know which it is.

This is not true. Soft matzos are clearly addressed in the Mishnah Berura and the Shulhan Aruch Ha-Rav (Citation for Lubavitchers: Vol. I Chs. 460-461, prohibiting only the baking of a handbreath thickness, and even then ipso facto it's kosher for Passover if one checks that the interior was baked completely - but in that case not to use for the mitzva - however it is very clear in both chapters that the matzo being discussed was thin but in no other way different than the prohibited thick version allowed by the Mehaber, and discussions of air bubbles in the matzo even more so indicate that the only matzo known at the time was soft). By all accounts Rabbi Y.S. Elyashiv is not yet so עובר-בטל that he could overlook something like this. As Shmarya points out, if Elyashiv wrote that commuique he lied twice. But more importantly the statement is in conflict from clearly written halachic sources. There is no way that statement was written or spoken by R' Elyashiv. This is something we can and do know.

The only thing we may never know is whether the "error" came from the RCV or R' Elyashiv's handlers.

[Dutch]

one thing for sure if you eat hard matzos you are yotzei according to everybody. Soft matzos puts you in hot water. Isn't there a drawing of matzah baking from the 1200's where they are baking hard matzos?

[MW]

What's his opinion on the "Ari-Zoine" Matzos ??

[Normal]

"Well, here's another nice mess you've gotten me into!" (Hardy to Laurel). Australian Rabbis have a knack for doing things that makes most people's mouths drop wide open over the last 20 years and I think this will be another one of them.

[nobody]

Can the soft matza from Australia be ordered online? And are there any NY-based kosher productions of soft matzah that we can order/buy from?

[esty]

nobody, try emailing R.Rabi
www.kosherveyosher.com.au he would probably send you some

[Ed]

After reading your posts, and following the links, I've looked and asked about this in New York. Haven't found anyone who sold it or heard of it. Is this a joke?

[steven in uk]

I wish the "soft, option were available in London!.

I only eat, the "carbod,for the Seda, the rest of the week, taking the advise of Marie antoinette, by eating cake!.

[masortiman]

I still dont get the big deal with this. Who, exactly, suffers a hardship because of hard matzoh? In the absence of a problem, I don't see the need to drop a 400 year old minhag, even if we recognize that its a relatively recent innovation.

I mean this isnt like kappuras with its impact on chickens.

and unlike the shtreimel, this seems to have been a minhag followed by ALL ashkenazic jews.

Indeed, the consumption of hard, not soft matzohs, is a humra followed by even Reform Jews.

[Moish the spacedout BT]

The use of hard matzo in the USA stimulates consumption of egg matzo which is supposed to be only for the elderly or infirm according to halacha but is a high volume sales product . Introducing "soft matzo" would cut out the market considerably. Also why did Badatz of Eida Ha Chreidit assur quinoa after the teshuva of R. Moshe Feinstein

[KosherDuded]

Aside from the issue of Ashkenazim eating soft matzos on Pesach, the hashgocha of those "matzos" produced in Australia cannot be relied upon. See the following alert issued by Rabbi Moshe Gutnick shlita of Sydney that casts significant doubt on the status of the "matza" that were produced last year by this same hashgocha...

WARNING RE: SOFT MATZAH – PESACH 5771

It has come to our attention that Kosher V’Yosher has purportedly supervised for Pesach soft laffa type Matzot. As we have done in the past, we wish to warn kosher consumers that in our opinion the supervision of Kosher V’Yosher cannot be relied upon and these Matzot may not be used on Pesach.

Last year, when Kosher V’Yosher supervised these Matzot for Pesach, according to the manufacturer and our visitation of the plant, the following occurred:
1. Ordinary flour that was not kosher for Pesach was used.
2. The conveyor belt was sprinkled with maize starch
3. The process heat was not sufficient for the baking of Matzah

In other words, the matzot were not permitted to be eaten on Pesach and were likely actual Chametz. It is therefore our opinion that Kosher V’Yosher cannot be relied upon.

Furthermore Kosher V’Yosher this year on their website have sought to use “approbations” from two renowned experts in Kashrut to bolster their position – Rav Elyashiv Shlit”a and Rav Shachter Shlit”a.

However the words of these Rabbis have in our opinion been misused by Kosher V’Yosher. Upon hearing of the manner in which their words were being used the two Rabbis issued separately the following statements:

Rav Elyashiv Shlita:
אסור לתת הכשר למצות רכות לקהילות אשכנז כי זו פירצה. ביהדות אשכנז אין על זה מסורת ואף פעם לא נהגו לאפשר אכילת מצות רכות.

Translation: It is forbidden to give a hechsher to soft matzot for Ashkenazi communities as this is a “pirtsah” a breakdown ( in standards). In Ashkenazi Jewry there is no such tradition (for making soft matzot) and at no time was it customary to enable the eating of soft matzot.

Rav Shachter Shlit”a:

My note written last month regarding Sfardic matzos was somehow taken as an endorsement of some specific matzah plant in Queens. Others understood that I was obviously referring to some specific matzah plant in Petach Tikvah. Let it be known that I am not familiar with either plant, and my note was not intended to endorse any specific matzah manufacturer in the NY area or in any other location. One must take care to use only such food products made under strict Rabbinic supervision and approved by one’s local Orthodox Rabbi, and especially with respect to Pesach products where the laws of kashrus are much more complicated and much more serious.

The above statements speak for themselves and in our opinion the lack of credibility of Kosher V’Yosher. Contrary to the Kosher V’Yosher website, Rav Elyashiv clearly forbids the making of such matzot for Ashkenazim and Rav Shachter does not allow his note to be used as an endorsement.

Kosher V’Yosher can simply not be relied upon and the soft matzot under the supervision of Kosher V’yosher must be considered forbidden for Pesach use.

The Kashrut Authority
The Sydney Beth Din
The Yeshiva Rabbinate

[nobody]

Rabbi David Bar Hayim (who was born in Australia btw), has some interesting and factual things to say about soft matzah here:

http://machonshilo.org/en/eng/component/content/article/34-featured/550-soft-massa-its-the-real-thing

His article is called: "Soft Massa: It's the Real Thing"

[nobody]

Btw, thank you esty for the info.