Conversion Conference Held

Try to imagine non-Jewish immigrants from the former Soviet Union as close kin, who should be helped to return to the Jewish people. “If I had a cousin who came from there who needed to convert – wouldn’t I do anything in my power to help her? They are all our cousins,” Rabbi Chaim Druckman said.

 

‘Think of non-Jewish immigrants from FSU as close kin’
“If I had a cousin who... needed to convert – wouldn’t I do anything in my power to help her? They are all our cousins," Druckman tells conversion conference.
By JONAH MANDEL • Jerusalem Post

Try to imagine non-Jewish immigrants from the former Soviet Union as close kin, who should be helped to return to the Jewish people, said head of the State Conversion Authority Rabbi Haim Druckman on Tuesday at a conference honoring converts on the day of the Mimunah celebrations that took place in Ashkelon, organized by the World Federation of Moroccan Jewry.

“If I had a cousin who came from there,” Druckman said, “who needed to convert – wouldn’t I do anything in my power to help her? They are all our cousins,” he said of the FSU immigrants.

Druckman’s statements came on the same day that Rabbi Abraham Sherman of the High Rabbinic Court was quoted on the Walla website as standing behind his ruling from 2008, when he said that Druckman’s conversions are not valid.

“Those who undergo conversions at the special rabbinic courts are Jews,” Druckman said. “Nobody can take that from them, regardless of who is trying to, and in whose name he is doing so,” he continued, referring to the fact the Sherman said he was acting in the name of senior Ashkenazi haredi halachic authority Rabbi Shalom Elyashiv.

“Conversion is a one-way road,” he added, noting that the IDF conversions were also according to Halacha and irrevocable.

Druckman noted three kinds of converts. The first type of convert is a person who grew up as a Jew, felt dissatisfied with their religion, and found answers in Judaism. A second type began two hundred years ago, when the gates of the ghettos in Europe opened and Jews gained freedoms.

That’s when assimilation and intermarriage began, and as a result non-Jews took to converting.

“The third type of convert is a phenomenon the Jewish people had never encountered previously. I am referring to conversions of FSU immigrants, who came from a place where their religion was brutally repressed, where great efforts were taken to remove any Judaism from their life. As a result, there was intermarriage – not out of a desire for assimilation, but because that was what reality dictated.

And now, their offspring are coming home. We must help all of them, and continue with what we consider one of the most important commandments of our generation, and God will help us,” he said.

The event’s organizers, led by head of the World Federation of Moroccan Jewry Sam Ben-Chitrit, declared this year’s theme “loving the convert” in support of those joining the Jewish people but also in protest against elements in the world of “extreme Orthodoxy” who do not accept all of the conversions conducted by Israel’s official rabbinic bodies.

Tuesday’s panel moderator, Rabbi Yisrael Rozen, who founded the State Conversion Authority in its current form 15 years ago, took a less militaristic approach and stressed the importance of encouraging converts and their adoptive families. “We can leave the arguments for different times which aren’t holidays,” he said.

It is most likely Ben- Chitrit’s attitude, which he expounded upon in an interview in Haaretz on Tuesday, that caused the last minute cancellation of honorary guest Rabbi Meir Israel Lau, chief rabbi of Tel-Aviv and former chief rabbi of Israel. In the interview Ben- Chitrit slammed the Shas party, which in his opinion was not active enough in promoting converts’ welfare, and also severely criticized the Ashkenazi-Haredi establishment for its attitude toward converts in Israel.

What stood out in both Rozen and Druckman’s addresses was their desire to spread the good word of conversions among Israelis who are not Jewish according to Halacha, one of the challenges facing those encouraging conversion.

Families “adopting” converts through their process were honored by the federation, and three converts told their personal stories to a small and receptive audience.

“The motivation to convert was never high,” Rozen said after the panel. “It’s not that they are afraid of converting – they simply do not need it,” he said of the FSU immigrants. “Israeli society has received them either way.” Asked whether the aspersions the Lithuanian haredi rabbinic leadership cast on the conversion processes in the State Conversion Authority and IDF could be a cause for a diminishment in the motivation to undergo the process, Rozen – an engineer by training – said that there were no data to confirm such a theory. He did point out, however, that the intermarriage rate in Israel was currently seven percent, and called the presence of non- Jews in Israeli society “a social land-mine, that needs to be removed. The haredi establishment should be grateful to us, conducting conversions, for clearing away these mines. An Israeli man can’t always know if his girlfriend is Jewish, and not even she is always sure,” he said.

While Rozen believes that there is much more potential to convert in Israel, Halacha forbids rabbis from conducting propaganda to the end of conversions.

“Social elements in Israel should market conversions,” he said.

Comments

[Mishe]

Yea but how are they your cousin if they are not jewish?//

[Maple Bacon]

According to halacha, if one is born to a non-Jewish mother then that person is considered a non-Jew.

The problem that I have is "NEEDING to convert" versus "WANTING to convert" (i.e., sincerity of conversion).

[Abu Jihad Schneerson]

@Mishe:so people with Jewish fathers are not Jewish?Read more Tanakh and less Talmud!

[tooclose2detroit]

AJS-please tell where in Tanach it goes after fathers.

[Justin]

I *love* this bit from Rav Druckman's quote above:

"The first type of convert is a person who grew up as a Jew, felt dissatisfied with their religion, and found answers in Judaism."

[Neo-Conservaguy]

My guess is that statement was a translation or typographic mistake and what we said was "...who grew up as a Non-Jew, felt dissatisfied with their religion, and found answers in Judaism."

In any case, this was a fantastic public declaration of support for converts on a wonderful Moroccan-Jewish holiday.

[Abu Jihad Schneerson]

@tooclose2detroitRead under 'Biblical references' in this article
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Matrilineality_in_Judaism

[Maximillian]

Aren't Ishmaelite's, a.k.a. Arab's, Jew's cousins?

[Yosef ben M.]

even moses our master took with him erev rav!
the proof, all the cynics commenting above without a heart, they couldn't be authentic jews.
animals, sodomites, that's what they are. them and their so called rabbis.

[Aleksandr Sigalov]

I always thought that Israel supposed to be the Hebrew land, not just the Jewish land ?!?

Am I missing something?

[Abu Jihad Schneerson]

Yosef ben M,you couldn't have said better!!!!

[Simon Rose]

In the Torah and Tanach it's clear a Jewish father is what makes one Jewish. The mother became common much later it seems from the time of Ezra and then in Talmudic times however this is not correct or Biblical.

There doesn't even seem to a clear reason for this change other than in Greek and Roman society citizenship based on the mother national legal status. The Rabbis seemed to copy this system.

Drucker is very compassionate and that's an important Jewish quailty moreover he makes a lot of sense. The Haredi are screwed up as usual and do more to divide Jews then help them.

[tooclose2detroit]

i am not arguing with you, Simon, just asking for education-where in the Torah or Tanach does it go after father-and dont mention the big 3, because the Torah wasnt given to them.

[Dave]

Simon, TC2D, I think the problem is that we've never finally sorted, in spite of the thousand or more years that passed between Matan Torah and the Talmud, this business of how should we accept the Talmud as taking precedence over Torah as far as halachic rulings are concerned, or should we rule very narrowly according to Torah.
I think the only solution is to put everything back on the table, and say
only the written Torah is divine (and the Nach is divinely inspired) but we will look at every reasonable interpretation based on how closely it conforms to Torah and is fair and merciful.
What do you think?

[PulpitRabbi]

@Dave, you wrote: the problem is that we've never finally sorted, in spite of the thousand or more years that passed between Matan Torah and the Talmud, this business of how should we accept the Talmud as taking precedence over Torah as far as halachic rulings are concerned

Actually, yes, we did. Karaites' readings and their whole approach was rejected by Rabanites, and that's centuries after their predecessors, the Pharisees, rejected the Sadducees' similar claims. Tradition comes down squarely in favor of a Sinaitic Oral Law, which was maintained by a living tradition, and is binding as understood by the last Sanhedrin to have had exegetical power. (There, I found a formulation that should please both those who want to claim that that oral law evolved over time, as well as those who would deny that).

Besides, the argument of what happened in Tanach is a no go for the simple reason that there is no data out there. Do we know whether Samson's wives underwent conversion? Or whether, if they did not convert, their offspring would have been Jewish? No, we have no texts that gives us those details. So it's all conjecture, and the argument that in biblical times identity followed the father is just an claim by those who want to disagree with codified halacha.

Be well

[Simon Rose]

There's two good scholarly books on the subject Rabbi Prof. Shaye Cohen the "Begining of Jewishness" and Lawrence Shiffman's (sorry) it escapes me now, google it.

Some people throw out the Karaites but they have nothing to do with this issue, it's way before them.

The Avos, Moshe, Solomon, etc... all had non Jewish wives and yet clearly had accepted Jewish offspring. The idea of Jewish conversion was never a formal matter (as today with the Haredi) but a simplier social matter. Mariage, living with the customs of the tribe or people was enough to be included. See Sefer Ruth. Also the Erev Rav in the desert they were ultimately full members of society as was their off spring it seems and that is the crux of the matter.

Simple declaration of wanting to be part of the Israelite people and cast one's lot with them, agree to following the basic rules, or marriage was the conversion. See Rambam's commentary on the Talmud. Teach a few minor Mitzvoth and that Jewish people are disliked among the nations and if they agree, then they have their Bris or ritual immersion and they are now Jewish.

Remember ancient Jewish society was male dominated never female dominated and the man's status was the status of the children just like a Kohan or Levite. This is clear through out the Torah and Tanach.

It's still unclear what caused the 180d. flip by the Talmudic times, my best guess after a lot of study on the subject is what we see today, money, power, greed, control over people and their lives. Also a way for one sect to differenciate themselves from another etc... So the Orthodox can have reason to claim reform or conservative converts are not Jews and hold on to some control and power.

Actually they hurt us all and should be not considered authoritative in any way as they left the truth and actual historical context and customs a long time ago.

please forgive and type o's

[Simon Rose]

Couple more tecnical points very important.

The indisputable halakhic source is in Yevamot 47a-b, where the requirement is to inform would-be converts of some of the minor and some of the major commandments.

Rambam states (Issurei Biah 13:17): "A proselyte who was not examined [as to his motives] or who was not informed of the mitzvoth and their punishments, and he was circumcised and immersed in the presence of three laymen-is a proselyte.
Even if it is known that he converted for some ulterior motive, once he has been circumcised and immersed he has left the status of being a non-Jew and we suspect him until his righteousness is clarified. Even if he recanted and worshipped idols, he is [considered] a Jewish apostate; if he betroths a Jewish woman according to halakha, they are betrothed; and an article he lost must be returned to him as to any other Jew. Having immersed, he is a Jew." Rambam is quite clear that a conversion is valid even under very imperfect conditions: the convert wasn't informed of the mitzvoth; had an ulterior motive; later recanted and worshipped idols. Even in such circumstances, the convert is deemed to be a Jew, as long as he was circumcised and immersed in the mikvah.

Anyway we need more Jews from all levels of observance and the Haredi are out of control not following halacha but political dangerous games with all Jews everywhere. This is why they can't be trusted as Judges at this point in time.