An Animal Doesn't Care About His Killer's Religion

In the Netherlands, a parliamentary majority is putting the final strokes to a bill proposing to ban ritual slaughter in the Netherlands. Constant references to legal practices or questionable findings in the past are not conducive to producing a well-balanced debate. It is no longer possible or permissible to continue with ritual slaughter given that all independent researchers conclude that anaesthetising animals leads to less pain. These findings have been backed up by veterinary experts.

 

Opinion: An animal doesn't care about its killer's faith
A parliamentary majority is putting the final strokes to a bill proposing to ban ritual slaughter in the Netherlands. The proposal was put forward by the Animal Rights Party to make slaughter practices for kosher and halal meat illegal.
Marianne Thieme • Radio Netherlands

The detailed instructions given in both the Qur'an and the Torah on how people should treat animals tell us not to show cruelty to them. The holy books describe how animal products should be prepared in such a way that no suffering is inflicted on humans or animals.

3000 years ago

Islamic and Jewish traditions were way ahead when it came to treating animals well. But that does not change the fact that, based on new insights, their methods of slaughter are in need of reform today. Religious believers can no longer justify a method that was ahead of its time 3000 years ago. Taking the best slaughter method that was on offer 3000 years ago with the insights of the time doesn’t have to be replicated in today’s society.

A range of techniques for stunning animals before slaughter are available. Extensive research has been conducted on the extent to which animals experience pain during slaughter – the most dramatic event in an animal’s life. It is important to be able to guarantee all animals that the slaughter procedure will be as painless as possible and will be carried out with the least possible distress.

That safeguard has already been embodied in Dutch law, but there is an exemption for Jewish and Muslim ritual slaughter. There is very little support in the Netherlands or in a range of other countries – whether in political circles or among the public at large – for upholding this exemption. Turkey has announced plans to abolish ritual slaughter from the end of this year. The practice has already been banned in Switzerland, Austria, Denmark, Finland, Norway, Estonia and Iceland and New Zealand.

Curb freedom of religion

While anyone who practises a religion has the right to their own religious truths, it doesn’t give them the right to violate the welfare of another human or an animal. So, where necessary, it is the task of the government to intervene and curb freedom of religion. If you’re religious, you might cling to certain views on homosexuality, for example, but that should never lead to discrimination against fellow citizens.

Luckily, the whole debate on ritual slaughter is also being held in religious circles. The Committee on Jewish Law and Standards of the Rabbinical Assembly (which comprises 1,600 conservative rabbis) in New York issued a statement in 2001 entitled “A Stunning Matter”. The declaration said that the Torah leaves the matter of stunning animals before shechita (Jewish slaughter) open and that there is no need to ban the practice. Within the Muslim community, the option of stunning before slaughter is also garnering support.

No to religious exclusive rights

Constant references to legal practices or questionable findings in the past are not conducive to producing a well-balanced debate. It is no longer possible or permissible to continue with ritual slaughter given that all independent researchers conclude that anaesthetising animals leads to less pain. These findings have been backed up by veterinary experts.

The development of ethics is a dynamic process and not an exclusive privilege of the religious. The whole concept of animal welfare rights has now been established in mainstream society; and so, the next logical step is to embody that development in political decision-making. That justifies an abolition of unanaesthetised ritual slaughter. It would signify a great breakthrough in the struggle to treat animals in the Netherlands with more compassion.

Marianne Thieme is leader of the Animal Rights Party and a member of parliament. She writes a weekly blog which is translated into nine different languages on animal welfare, www.partyfortheanimals.nl.

The Netherlands was the first country in the world to have an Animal Rights Party member elected to parliament. The Animal Rights Party (Partij van de Dieren in Dutch) strives for compassion, personal freedom, sustainability and personal responsibility for the planet and its people.

Comments

[tooclose2detroit]

it would seem to be the logical conclusion to this that it should be illegal to kill animals, period-i would think that, since we are talking about what the animal cares about, that it's preference would be NOT TO BE KILLED at all-o, i am sure that given the choice, it would choose to be knocked out first, but they would consider that a small consolation, I suppose.

[Raphael Kaufman]

Halacha doesn't require that the animal experience no pain or suffering. The prohibition is against inflicting unnecessary pain and suffering. Clearly cutting an animal's throat while it is still conscious inevitably inflicts some pain. Still, humane kosher slaughter is, as Temple Grandin puts it, is a lot better than being torn to pieces by a lion. The animal rights folks don't seem to have a problem with that.

[Garnel Ironheart]

Mark my words, before this is done halal will find a way to get itself exempted and it'll be all about banning shechitah.
Either that or wait 20 years and Holland will have its Muslim majority reverse the bill.

[yidandahalf]

Jews have long been brainwashed by rabbis and are now held hostage by kosher certifying agencies. In the year 2011 the majority of them still believe that 'keeping kosher' defines them as Jews and are willing to throw their money out the window into the waiting hands of the kosherists. It's a racket that few of them seem willing to overturn.

[Dave]

Garnel, there is a possible solution which no one has thought about. The Jewish community pays for Japanese kendo sword masters to train shochtim how to cut super-fast, and also trains shochtim to be in very good physical shape so that their reflexes are excellent. I know that most of us are quite insular so this sounds insane, but I don't care, I think it could really work.

[tooclose2detroit]

, is a lot better than being torn to pieces by a lion. The animal rights folks don't seem to have a problem with that.

Posted by: Raphael Kaufman | April 15, 2011 at 12:33 PM

They may have a problem with it, but I think outlawing killing among animals is still beyond their grasp-unless they eliminate all the animals that kill-ahh, such a quandary.

[martin nerl]

yid an a half

i missed something. when did this brainwashing happened? when did keeping kosher not define jews? who is forcing anybody to keep kosher. if those evil rabbis could force anyone, why are they letting 4 to 5 million jews continue to eat non-kosher?

[martin nerl]

sorry for the bad grammar, why couldn't those brainwashers teach a little grammar as well?

[MamzerHaKodesh]

I feel conflicted about this. This is clearly an act that causes unnecessary suffering, and yet it is extremely important for all traditionalists who believe it is mandatory for religious reasons. If this happens, the countries with a ban will simply important halal and shechita meat from other countries at greater expense. Or the kosher and halal butchers will go underground, making animal conditions worse, not better.

And on the other hand, causing less pain to an animal is important and far more morally important, than killing according to tradition.

For those of you who say we should ban animal killing and meat eating, you may want to read Lierre Keith's "The Vegetarian Myth". I found it extremely eye-opening. One of the major points in her book is that humans are not meant to survive without animal products. Our digestive tracts are more similar to carnivores than herbivores, not to mention there is no way in hell we got our large brains by eating vegetarian.

[Check your research]

Keep in mind that the research that "proved" that shechita causes more pain was not done by people trained in shechita and with a different knife than is used for shechita. There is a compelling reason to think that this research is faulty. Not only do they make inferences about shechita from a study done on their mis-approximation of the practice, but the shorter knives that they use are much more likely to cause pain than are the actual knives used in shechita. Want the proof? http://www.grandin.com/ritual/slaughter.without.stunning.causes.pain.html

[Dave]

Mamzer, I have read your blog. It is very interesting. Since according to your blog, you now believe in Jesus Christ, I don't know why you care at all about kashrut whatsoever, since it is certainly not required by Christianity.

[A Yid]

An Animal Doesn't Care About His Killer's Religion

An animal doesn't care about his killer's species.
The ethical and fair thing would therefore be to ban carnivorous animals from eating other animals without prior electrocution.
The author of the above article Marianne Thieme is leader of the Animal Rights Party of the Netherlands should understand more than anyone that rights come (or rather should come) with corresponding responsibilities. She and her other party members should therefore be sent to the local zoos and forests to explain to the animals the importance of obeying the law and electrocuting each other before eating them.

[Yechiel]

'An animal doesn't care about his killer's religion'... neither do most of you on this site; you care little, if at all, about our religion.
Science this and science that; whatever goes in stride with your skepticism.
Don't forget, pre-war Germany had plenty of propaganda about animal rights.
Let's cut the crap and focus on caring for our fellow human beings and providing their needs.
Shabbat Shalom

[Gevezener Chusid]

dead is dead. whether the animal "cares" how he became that way is a moot point once he's been killed.

what used to be the province of antisemites is now the province of the antireligious.

are Ethiopian Jews vegetarian?

[tooclose2detroit]

ethiopian jews are the barometer of morality,now?-how the hell did that happen?-anyhow, killing animals sucks, I am glad I dont have to do it for a living, and i wish no one did.

[masortiman]

Ms. thieme has misread the CJLS position. The question at issue there was POST shechita stunning. They found SOME doubt wrt to pre-shechita stunning, and then used that as the basis for a kol va homer argument for leniency on pre shehita stunning - they did NOT rule on pre shehita stunning per se.

[yidandahalf]

martin ner.
It happened when some 'rabbis' found their presence needed on boards, committees, agencies, and the like which in turn saw any substantial funds come under their control. These stainless 'rabbis' found it necessary to push the agenda in order for the gelt to keep flowing and any power they wielded to remain intact. The esteemed 'Rabbi' Genack comes to mind. Others reading here could provide a more accurate and detailed time line.
And may I ask if you yourself need Ka$h-R-u$ to define you as a Jew? And if so how and why?

[yidandahalf]

And martin nerl,
May I also ask if you consider the current method of factory farm - assembly line religious slaughter (i.e., that done by the former Agriprocessors, Alle and the 'kosher' slaughter done in Uruguay to be part of what defines you as a Jew?

[martin nerl]

yid and a half

am i correct in understanding that you are not against kashrus, but rather the money that is made in supervision? and you are not against shechita but the way commercial slaughterhouses do other things, but not the shechita itself? that wasn't what your original post seemed to say.
if the kosher supervision business bothers you , you can do it yourself, i guess. are you also against doctors who get rich off of medical care they provide?

[yidandahalf]

If you will answer my questions, I will try my best to answer yours.

[martin nerl]

you dont understand how keeping kosher is part of what defines a jew?

[MamzerHaKodesh]

Dave - Thank you for checking up on Mamzer Hakodesh, it is much appreciated. However, if you want to know why I keep an ear to the ground on Shechita and other Jewish subjects, maybe you should read MORE of my blog, or at least the "About" or "FAQ" page.

[A. Nuran]

The rabbis say unconsciousness is instantaneous when an animal is slaughtered by kosher standards.

On Wednesday I slaughtered two lambs by cutting their throats. One pass with a quite literally razor sharp blade severed the carotids, jugulars and trachea. The last time I had sheep to butcher I shot them through the head.

The bullet was instantaneous. Bang. Thud. With the knife they were active and conscious 10-15 seconds later. They did stop moving for almost a minute.

While I am not trained in shechita I have done my share of butchering and have been trained in knife techniques including cutting throats. A person is about the same size as large ram. People whom I know who have done sentry removal say that even when the great vessels are severed a person can certainly be conscious and capable of purposeful movement for thirty seconds. This is when the technique is performed by a trained professional using techniques and tools designed to cause unconsciousness and death as quickly as possible.

Furthermore, I know Gentiles who have worked in slaughterhouses. Their observations about the behavior of animals under these conditions does not have a religious bias. They say it uniformly takes longer for shechted animals to lose consciousness and to die.

The apologists are wrong. It really is that simple.

[A. Nuran]

Aargh "They did not stop moving for almost a minute"

[Shmuely]

Raphael: "Still, humane kosher slaughter is [] a lot better than being torn to pieces by a lion. The animal rights folks don't seem to have a problem with that."

You obviously know something the rest of us don't. I was unaware that lions were running loose "tearing animals to pieces" in Holland.

Perhaps I'm not as intelligent as you, but I figure the Dutch goyim would stop that in a heartbeat.

But perhaps you are speaking of an earlier era in America when the goyim put animals on trial for murder. You think the Dutch should be doing that? Trying housecats for tearing birds to pieces, for example?

[Avi Rosenthal]

1. It is hypocritical of the Dutch to ban shechita and not ban hunting. See http://bit.ly/fzBG0d

2. Jews should not be living in Europe anyway.

[A. Nuran]

Avi, hunting is a necessary part of environmental management. We've gotten rid of most of the natural predators, so prey species have to be kept at manageable levels by hunting. You either pay wildlife officers to do it or you let hunters pay you for the privilege.

Re-introducing wolves, bears and lions to Europe could be interesting, but I don't think it's going to happen. So we're stuck with hunting.

[rg]

Im a resident of Amsterdam, Netherlands.

It strikes me as strange that the muslims were ok with changing their method of slaughter while the jews refused to. Also imports of meat (from belgium for example) will still be legal so people can still eat kosher meat if they want to.

Personally, I think that religious (or other) groups should never have a different rule to the rest of society. If a society decides that something is wrong, there should not be an exemption for a specific religious group.

Will be interesting to see what happens once a ban on circumcision is being discussed in the coming years. Same rules apply though, if someone in a society is not allowed to mutilate a child, then religions dont get special rules that exempt them.

Group rights are not important, only individual rights... Lots of us here in Netherlands are happy that the decisions we make for our society do not pander to religions like in many other places.

[Yechiel]

Atimsimites, religion haters and self hating jews:
Religious Judaism will prevail and so will shechita long after your ugly souls will disapear from the face of earth.

[tooclose2detroit]

does she kvetch about how animals are raised for veal (kept motionless in pens so they stay tender), and the same with chickens??-the entire industry needs an entire revamping, not just the kosher aspects of it.

[A. Nuran]

Tc2d, you are absolutely right.

[Yechiel]

Antisemites, self haters and shortsighted fools:
I refer to you as such, since you do not care about your fellow beings; just the very short period of discomfort of a DYING animal.
Point in case: The more shechita is banned, the more expensive the meat gets. Since, thus far, it is one's right to consume meat, we shall continue buying meat; only now at prohibitive costs. I know that you know that; that is why I am referring to you as I did.
Our belief system needs not be revamped to satisfy bleeding hearts or those who are trying to uproot religion in its entirety.
That shmendrik lady should go back to being a housewife and doing what she is meant to do best; dishes.
All you bleeding hearts crawl back to your little holes and feed on vegetables.
זאת התורה לא תהא מוחלפת.
The fact mentioned by commenters that the Muslims are considering change, says a lot about the integrity of their religion...

[yidandahalf]

Thanks to A. Nuran for his outstanding comments on this thread. I am usually unable to contribute in such a way as I feel too close to this entire issue and often cannot contribute anything that I feel to be sufficiently coherent.

Having said that we now come to the point at which this question(s) cannot be left unasked any longer:

For the apologists and committed fressers of Agriprocessors/Alle style slaughtered products: The methods used in these slaughter operations have been revealed to the public. Knowing what you now do, therefore, what is it about this entire issue that causes the product to be even more compelling to you? Does the flesh from these suffering creatures taste differently? Do the fear and torment these animals undergo somehow transfer to the flavor of the meat? What is it about the meat from this particular type of slaughter that you seem to be unable to resist?

[yidandahalf]

Yechiel,

Pope Pius XI told Napoleon that he confused "God with religion". Napoleon replied: "On the contrary. Man can live without God but not without religion."

I doubt whether you will be able to interpret this but perhaps it will keep you occupied long enough to realize you need to travel more, read more, and reflect more. Better yet, go to school. Even a technical college would benefit you. Just do something, QUICK.

[rg]

@yechiel: It is a religious choice to eat kosher, therefore it is your problem if it is too expensive. Women should have equal rights, most civilised people understand that.

Only the religious seem to think that the freedom to practice their (group's) religion should impede other peoples individual rights,the laws of a country,the equality of male and female or freedom of sexuality.

@tc2d: They are making laws about treatment of animals in general, and there is a revamp of the meat industry coming to Netherlands. This will include meat of non-humanely treated animals (kept in unfair environments,etc..) not being sold here anymore in supermarkets.

[Yechiel]

Y and 1/2
For your info: I am not challenged in any way as you may be... I worked in a variety of fields - all professional, my entire life.
You come thru as a bleeding heart type and atheist. I don't care what your practices are; my opinion remains. You can hock a tcheinik with a play with words by individuals of yesteryear to make you sound intelligent. You fail to have the basic concept of what religion and beliefs are. It is your right to not be religious. However, to infringe on others' rights to practice religion, however much you dislike it, is unacceptable.
Yes, women are to be treated fairly and respected as human beings. Yet they do not stand up to the heavy duty standards normally associated with their counterpart; the male. Even in civilised countries woman always had to fight for their rights; I wonder why... I know you may respond with 'proof' how woman outperformed man. I agree; sometimes, not as a general rule. Women are creatures driven by feelings and emotion; not by rationale. The man utilizes the brain and sets emotions aside where necessary. Yeah yeah, science says otherwise... (Science apologists always agree...)
Just look around you and tell me it's not so.
Now about the issue at hand: The meat does not taste better per se, but this is the only meat we will ever eat. It's been debated again and again and for now shechita in the USA is exempt from your feminine like emotions.

BTW I have travelled, read and reflected. Perhaps I am too dumb to let any of that make an impression...

To you I say; Man up and stop being a pussy QUICK.
Your distaste for religion impedes your productive thinking process.

RG most of the above is targetted at you as well.

[WoolSilkCotton]

So Yechiel, why do you frumma have to fress so much meat all the time?

Your religious beliefs, as expressed above, are leaving you in the rear view mirror of civilization. Have a nice life.

[Yechiel]

Wool silly katan...
Why so much meat?
Meat is tasty.
Meat is healthy.
Meat satisfies the appetite of those fortunate enough to afford it.
Meat is another topic that gets idiots all riled up.
Meat is yet another vehicle to fight revisionist Judaism.
Meat is an industry that makes lots of money for some co-religionists.
Some of the reasons why I eat meat.

And ahh, yes, I hope to continue having a good life. Thanks for being so generous.

I am in your rear view mirror all the time; you just can't seem to get away fast enough...

[What kind of goyishe name is Harold z"l?]

Yechiel, I wish there was a cure for you but sadly your self inflicted illness is with you forever. I assume and hope you're talking about animal meat. Eat away!

[WoolSilkCotton]

So Yechiel, every one of your reasons for eating meat falls into these categories:

1. Ignorance about health

2. Satisfying your personal gluttony

3. Hate of other Jews

4. Making money for frumma criminals

I can only conclude that you are a Torah Jew. You meet (pun intended) the requirements.

Getting away from you as fast as possible is an excellent idea.
I have at least one great advantage in life over you: when I look in my mirror each morning, I don't see you.

[yidandahalf]

Well, it's clear Yechial has cholesterol poisoning. He can't think straight or make a convincing argument. He is probably fressing his way to a heart attack right now.

[Yechiel]

Hi guys:
I am having a grand time on your account...
I make outrageous comments and get ya all going.
In my humble opinion you are a bunch of sad stories.
Get a life and stop whining about frumma this and frumma that.

May G-d almighty grant you all a happy and prosperous life.

Chag Sameach.

[Canuck]

That the Animal Rights Party won a seat in the Dutch parliament is a good argument in favor of plurality voting systems over proportional representation. If the other Dutch parties ran with the proposal to ban religious Jewish slaughter, you can be sure that they are using so-called animal rights as a pretext to buy votes from those who would like to stiff the Jews of Holland. The famous Dutch tolerance for religious minorities has obviously been relegated to the history books.

[Teddy]

Canuck, do you have a US-passport? THERE WAS NO PROPOSAL TO BAN RELIGIOUS JEWISH SLAUGHTER! Nothing but filthy lies,the intended victims are muslims, Jews are just unavoidable collateral damage. There is just one shochet in the whole country, nobody in his right mind would bother about that, there have been a few incidents with muslim slaughter however...

And there is always trouble with muslims, or Geert Wilders is causing it, most often the latter. His lawyer is Jewish, which has not helped gaining sympathy in some circles...

This is high politics, the power of the christian block has been broken, and the Jews see that voting for some guy called Cohen,is not always what is good for the Jews. Why a party led by a Jew and with great muslim support decided to treat Jews and muslims like all other people I do not know. Jews are just becoming victims of a secular-muslim clash, a pity, but if the largest opposition party or Wilders change their mind, nothing will happen.

[Canuck]

Teddy: How is your business which passport I have? And, who are you calling a filthy liar? I hope you don't use that kind of language with your mother.

Do you have any evidence that the law is meant to send a message to the Muslims? If so, what is the message? In the above article, the author wrote that Muslims may accept stunning before halal slaughter. Note that stunning involves the shooting of a bolt into the animal's head. If that's the case, then the only slaughter to be banned will be kosher slaughter, which does not allow for stunning. The law sends a message that the Jews' method of slaughter is inhumane - which it isn't, but will encourage further scorn and abuse to be heaped upon the Jews.

[Teddy]

To answer your first question, your post reads like one made by another damn stupid Yankee. "That the Animal Rights Party won a seat in the Dutch parliament is a good argument in favor of plurality voting systems over proportional representation."
That's a filthy lie, if people do think animal rights are more important than religious rights, economy and decency they should be able to vote for and elect people sharing their views. That way the power is given to the people, and that is pure democracy. Those little one issue parties are useful, as fleas to keep the institutional colossus awake. So I call you a filthy liar, as you have no understanding of the politics, system or demography involved. I mean, do you really think that Geert Wilders and his criminal cronies would want to hurt their fellow muslim bashers in Israel?

The message is quite simple: We Do Not Want You, Rag Heads(that is the PVV, the PVDD are just a bunch PETA-like extremists, hating all people who work with animals, and the PVDA are so secular that they forgot that they do have quite some Muslim and Jewish support and members. The PVV may be willing to listen to Jews(Exactly for the reason you described), and the PVDA seems to realize that offending part of their support, members and even Senate electors is a bad move, if only one of the two decides to stop its support it will never become a law). It was a show of power of the secular parties, only to find in the case of the PVDA that their support is not THAT secular after all and that is a good thing.

[Deltahero]

Yechiel, you worry me. In my World everyone is entitled to his/her own views; if most thought as narrowly as you, we'd have even more intolerance. By the way, the name of your deity is GOD, not G-d, and she is a fantasy anyway. Just live your life and love your fellow man & woman. Stop being a Jewish Nazi.
My neighbour Avi Rosenthal says that Jews should not be living in Europe. I believe that Europe would be the poorer for it, but New York really does suit Jewish men and women; go see, they seem so happy there, or there's always occupied Palestine, 'though - please God - let's hope the rulers there cease their own version of the Final Solution soon.