Could Noah's Flood Have Really Happened?

Did the Bible's flood really happen? Or is the story told in Genesis an impossibility? You decide.

 

ah-pee-chorus writes:

Here are some of the facts which render the flood story impossible:

1.due to factors such as the speed of the water current, no trees could have survived the flood. yet, individual trees have been found that are 6,000 and even 10,000 years old, and a tree colony exists today which dates back over 80,000 years. noahs ark was 4000 years ago.

2. genetic variation can be measured in species thereby  shedding light on their history. cheetahs, for example have so little variation that they are all essentially inbred. scientists estimate that the cheetah population dwindled to possibly as few as 500 approx. 10,000 years ago. almost all other living species show differentiation at such a higher level that their lineage can be traced to dates far earlier. humans through DNA can be traced to common parentage over 100,000 years ago. it is completely scientifically implausible that all living things achieved their measured levels of genetic differentiation from just TWO mates, a mere 4000 years ago.

3. neglecting the impossibility of fitting the millions of species on a single boat that could never have floated nor been designed nor built with available technology, engineering and tools, by a few men , in that short time.......
there was no time to collect the species. noah and family would have had to collect over 300,000 beetles. yup, just beetles. and they collected them from all over the world. and what about the 1,000,000 species of insects? again, from all over the world. sound likely?

4. many species can only survive in their climate. polar bears would not have survived the trip. neither would many species from warmer climates. not only did they make it to the ark, but noah must have had some wonderful refrigeration and heating set-up aboard the mighty ship.

5.was the water freshwater or saltwater?
if fresh, no saltwater fish would have survived to exist today. if saltwater, no freshwater fish today.

6.how did animals that cant fly or swim get from mt. ararat in asia to australia? there are many species which exist only there.

7.light doesnt penetrate the ocean more than about 500 ft. if the earth were submerged under 29,000 ft. in order to cover mt. everest, no marine plant life would have survived.

i'll stop here. there are many more.

and dont bother with the "miracle " defense since these are not areas ever mentioned as being miraculous. they were to be believed as within the natural order.

ah-pee-chorus also noted this:

…Extensive writings exist for the sumerian civilization which date from before 3000BCE (hundreds of years before the bible flood), straight through to a period many hundreds of years after. there was no mention of the flood, they were writing in sumerian before the bible story of babel claimed any other languages existed, and if all were killed in flood except noahs clan, it would have taken quite a while for those descendants to speak and be able to write the exact same language that had been spoken prior to the flood.

Comments

[Yochanan Lavie]

The story is probably an allegory based upon a racial memory of the melting of the glaciers after the Ice Age. Or it was a memory of a localized flooding, such as that which created the Black Sea. Almost every culture has a flood myth from which they derive great meaning. It might not be literally true, but many truths can be gleaned from "fiction" or "myth."

[dlz]

As a matter of fact, the Ramban in his commentary to the Torah does say that the fact that all of the species fit into the ark is a miracle.

[ynj]

sheigets dont worry your day wiil come!

[Jtb]

Please...I was there...the ark had plenty of room...also wide screen tv's!

[Garnel Ironheart]

"Racial memories" is a term invented as a plot device in science fiction stories. Here's the entire problem with this post:
> neglecting the impossibility of fitting the millions of species on a single boat that could never have floated nor been designed nor built with available technology,

Right, so here's the deal. As believing Jews we accept a miracle happened that allowed the ark to be built, gather and contain all known species (excluding dragons) and survive a world destroying event. But we have to accept natural laws for explaining the flood? The entire process was miraculous.

[Jeff]

Oh, here we go...

You know what, frummies? Take the day off; I've got you covered -

"Kofrim! Apikorsim! Of course it happened, exactly as our Holy Toyreh describes it! HaKodesh Boruch Hu says it, but, even more importantly, our Heilige Rebbaim say it! You'll all burn in Gehinnom!"

There, I think that about does it.

(Sorry about the proper grammar and correct spelling. I tried to compensate by throwing in a lot of Hebrew and Yiddish.)

[jancsipista]

jtb-internet too they had wow i envy them:) the flood story is taken out of aan earlier story much earlier a more then a thousand years the story with this character utnapishtim i even have an archelogy book that mentions it for sure without a doubdt that no such thing occured as all the animals where herded unto a giant ship no way hozei that this ever happened its like most of the stories in the torah its the fabrication od someones imagination case closed.

[Adam Neira]

The flood story is apocryphal. The Tanach is part : Genealogy; Drama; Lawmaking and Interpretation; Jurisprudence; Romance; War Battles; Power Dynamics; Placenaming; Object Referencing; Chronology of Actual Events; Prophecy; Allegory; Metaphor ; VI’s and Wise Counsel. It is an attempt to make sense of the universe. Weighing up the relevance of the different pieces should be left to very wise souls. The Tanach is the most important book in the world. The 79,976 words of the Pentateuch assume primacy. The "value" of all communications can be rated. Certain words carry more weight than others.

[Jeff]

You know, I'd heard that business about cheetahs, years ago, and forgotten about it. It's very interesting. There are other, similar occurrences. In North America, for example, at some point in the 19th century, beavers had been hunted nearly to extinction to make hats for Europeans. There were only about half a dozen left east of the Mississippi by the time they became protected. All beavers in the Eastern US today are descended from them. You wouldn't think there'd have been enough genetic diversity to sustain a viable breeding population, but, apparently, there was - which means there may be hope yet for the Modern Orthodox.

neglecting the impossibility of fitting the millions of species on a single boat that could never have floated nor been designed nor built with available technology, engineering and tools, by a few men , in that short time...

The evangelicals rationalize it by insisting that only two (or seven) representatives of each broad special (as in "pertaining to species") category (to which they refer as "baramins" or "kinds") were on board. The idea is that after the flood, they differentiated into all of the different species we have now - so, Noah would have had to collect only a few thousand animals, which all would have fit on the ark as a result of clever engineering and divine intervention.

Whether it comes from a Jew or a gentile, it's pure, unadulterated psychosis.

[Betzalel]

If the flood never happened, why does every culture in the world have a flood story?

[Jeff]

The Tanach is the most important book in the world.

Naturally - here we go with this bullshit again.

As I was typing the word "psychosis", I was thinking, "I wonder how he'll spin this one?"

[Zane Bitterfield]

It is a shame and a failing to believe that the torah is divinely inspired. Saying that,The essential belief of a single god and the duty of jews to be a light for the world" should be the only things that matter. A beautiful religon and framework for a better life, worth living, should never be clouded by what is "more authoritative".We should never need legends and scraps of our past to enforce our beliefs. It's been a long while, let's set aside what divides us and concentrate on belief.

[corn popper]

ah-pee,
The Torah itself states that trees survived. Remember the part about the dove that Noach released - it flew back with an olive leaf so he knew that the waters receded.

[Yochanan Lavie]

I am a Science Fiction fan, so I very well may have used my own racial memory to dig up that phrase. (It could also be from Jung,as a shorthand for his "collective unconscious.") Nevertheless, I stand by what I posted.

Several years ago, Shmarya recommended a book on this site called "When Heaven and Earth Traded Places." I found it quite good. I also recommend NY Times science writer Nicholas Wade's book "The Faith Instinct." These books explain religion quite well, in my opinion.

The Tanach is not a book of history or science; it's a book about religion. Some people don't "get" religion- to each his/her own. But for most of us, including me, it is an essential need, as is the need to belong to something, and to have an identity. Modern traditional Judaism does it for me. I am not a fundamentalist, but I am still a believer. If that makes me psychotic, or deluded, so be it. To fundies, I'm a heretic and to secularists I'm a fanatic.

[Nigritude Ultramarine]

Please...I was there...the ark had plenty of room...also wide screen tv's!

And theater seating recliners for large African animals.

[corn popper]

Hey ah-pee,
either you believe in a Divine Creator who has the power to manipulate nature as He sees fit, or you don't. If you do, there are no questions; if you don't, there are no answers.

[Jeff]

If that makes me psychotic, or deluded, so be it.

Yochanan, you know very well I wasn't referring to those like yourself who see it as allegory.

There probably was some sort of flood; I'll leave that to the geologists. But a world-destroying flood that humanity managed to survive because one man and his family built a boat on divine orders which he used to rescue the sum total of terrestrial genomia? As our host would say - please.

[jay]

There's evidence of some sort of localized catastrophe in that region. Possible a tsunami or large meteor strike in a neighboring sea. However there is no evidence of flood stories or devastation at that time in northern europe, asia, most of africa or the western hemisphere. There's no record in Egyptian or Mesopotamian writings of a flood. In fact, their cultures were approaching a peak at that time. There are at least 2 million vertebrate species extant. He would have needed 120 tons of food for the elephants alone, producing 80 tons of waste. Additionally if all the water in the atmosphere rained upon the earth, the sea level would rise a mere 2.65 centimeters.

[Jeff]

He would have needed 120 tons of food for the elephants alone, producing 80 tons of waste. Additionally if all the water in the atmosphere rained upon the earth, the sea level would rise a mere 2.65 centimeters

Yes, well - all of that can be dealt with handily: "It was a Fucking Miracle!"

[Dave]

Yochanan, very well said. I agree with you 100%.

[ruthie]

i want it to be true. it's my favorite story.
srsly, i do want it to be true.
after living in monsey all these years i want something to be real.

[jancsipista]

ruthie- like all other things in life by theese hassidim the only thing thaT i s real is money nothing matters the whole kashrus and everything else revolvs aroung make beleive because the real world is too harsh and too callous so they live in a make beleive world i subscribe to it also not in the degree they do but to some degree its much easier to choose and pick what you want to beleive its sort of a game

[Jayman]

For those who can accept Rabbi Aryeh Kaplan's take on the creation story and age of the universe, supported in one way or another by the writings of many great torah scholars, I don't see why it's so hard to understand the flood story as describing something spiritual. To those who say its completely literal, there is many unanswered questions, and who's to say for sure what happened, but halacha does not require us to believe that it is literal.

[marrtin nerl]

jeff. how do i know you are real? i've never seen you. maybe you are just shmarya using a different name? prove you really exist.

[A. Nuran]

Betzalel, every culture has stories about fire. There are also stories about wars, plagues and droughts all over the world. Does that mean there was one Great Fire, Great War, Great Plague and Great Drought?

Of course not.

It means there have been floods all over the world, and people have stories about them.

It also raises the question as to whether every culture actually does have a "Great Flood" story. The fundie types who say so are generally remarkably ignorant about anyone's stories except their own. Why should I trust them to have done an accurate anthropological survey of flood legends in every single culture in the world?

[WoolSilkCotton]

Why do all the bible stories revolve around the MidEast? There was plenty going on in Asia, Australia, Africa, Europe, North and South America, too, around the same time.

If the bible is the story of the world from about 6000 years ago, why is everywhere else conveniently ignored? Didn't God know that stuff was going on elsewhere?

[A. Nuran]

There are so many ways that the fairy tale of Noah and his big boat are simply wrong it's fruitless to catalog them all. From geology to archeology to paleontology to biology to astronomy it's full of things that are just inconsistent with the facts.

Of course, the Know Nothings will say "God made thousands of miracles so that it would look like the Flood didn't happen in order to test our faith". Or "Satan did it to fool us into believing there wasn't a flood." And we all live inside a giant simulation on someone's supercomputer 10,000 years from now.

[Jeff]

jeff. how do i know you are real? i've never seen you. maybe you are just shmarya using a different name? prove you really exist.

How about this,Martin? It doesn't matter to me whether or not you believe I exist. I'm not trying to get you to worship me, I'm not imposing nonsensical rules and practices upon you and I'm not threatening you with dire post-mortem consequences for not doing them. That already puts me in a moral category superior to your god's - and I'm not even a very nice guy.

[Jayman]

WSC, the Torah has effected the world more than any other book in history and is the most published book today. And in the news, Israel is one of the most consistently written about places in the world. The Torah says that it will be the guidebook to bring world peace and the messianic era. It would make sense that the Torah, that was given to the world by the Jewish people, would focus on Israelite history and areas that Israelites lived

[frenchtaste]

i read last week in the midrash rabba on my kiddle(title:100 jewish books, i think..) that the flood wans't the first one.That one time it fload until jaffa.And the Flood of noah was until barbari(i thik is Africa),so it wasn't ALL the World.
Somebody may find the reference ? thanks

[What kind of goyishe name is Harold z"l?]

Not only did it happen as stated (including all the "miracles" which render the flood story impossible) but it's going to happen again and very soon, I promise. Why? Because not only did you learn nothing from the first one but you're ugly too. Crazier things have happened. Did David Schick ever imagine in his wildest dreams that he would once become the Spinka Rebbe's gabbai?

[Loshon Hora]

Shmarayahooooo.
First you hated your Rebbe, then his chasidim then all Chareidim, then Orthodox Jews, then those that are sometimes Orthodox, or have been Orthodox, or have any ties to Orthodox.
Then you began hating Rishonim like Miamonadies, then you started questioning Nach & now the Torah & I guess G-d himself.
How come you still love yourself above all man-kind, & G-d?
I guess you put up a donate thread & pinned it, when you saw "no money" comming in you decided to take it out on G-d & hope the sitra achara will now donate to your anti G-d cause.
The chinuch in the mitzvah of wiping out Amalek says it goes on all Jew haters who are ultimatly G-d haters. I begin to wonder if you are really Jewish or a decendent of Amalek?

[Eliana G]

Torah says that the flood was on "ha-aretz." If you take this for "world," then there is a problem. But, "ha-aretz" could also mean "land," meaning the land where Noah lived.

The English word "earth" has the same ambiguity. If I say that the farmer tilled the earth, I don't mean he tilled the whole world.

[Loshon Hora]

Shmaryahooooo!
Please provide evidence that you are your father's son, after that if you claim DNA is enough & you prove it, you still have to prove your father is his father's son & keep going up, unless you get to an ape.
If you can't prove it, I would say there is no evidence you are not a mamzer so why should I believe you that you are not an ilegitamate bastard?

[Jeff]

If the bible is the story of the world from about 6000 years ago, why is everywhere else conveniently ignored? Didn't God know that stuff was going on elsewhere?

Apparently not:

http://www.theonion.com/articles/sumerians-look-on-in-confusion-as-god-creates-worl,2879/

[Shmuley Shmiley]

Why stop at the flood? There is not much historical evidence for the existence of this "Moses" character either, or for any flight from Egypt as detailed in the Torah. So why bother celebrating Pesach?

[jay]

Not much isn't the same as none whatsoever.

[A E ANDERSON]

Ape-chorus falls into the haredi literalist trap, or at least tries to refute it. There was no flood. The bible was written by men. Moses/David, et al., may well have been composites. So what?! We have a tradition that ascribes our heritage to God and Divine Providence: the Hebrew Bible may be our national foundation myth, but it is OUR foundation myth, and we CHOOSE to believe it was, at the very least, divinely inspired.

Now, the first thing you have to realise about "Articles of Faith," "Ikkarim," and the like, is that they were penned as a Jewish response to the bitter debates and schisms then raging in the Moslem and Christian worlds. Indeed those religions developed their own creedal character in response to those very same events. Their appendage to the liturgy, is at best, an afterthought, as their inconsequential placement vis-a-vis the Amida, the Shema, etc., clearly indicates.

But I think that you read the Rambam, in context, considering what he says and doesn't say, I think you are forced to conclude that, on balance, we are not meant in general to take to aggadic material from Tanakh literally. Much must be read as symbolism and allusion, as he says in one way or another in both the Yad and More Nevuchim.

I think the great sages of Jewish history largely agreed with that, even if they didn't gleefully prance through the streets proclaiming "The Torah isn't literal, ha ha ha!" On the contrary, they held the Pentateuch, Prophets and Writings to be sacred, worthy of respect and reverence as our national foundation myth should be.

In our present Exile, as we have been expelled from our land, and distanced from the great line of tradition, we have been forced to renew and recreate, sometimes accurately and sometimes fancifully.

The haredi mindset so recreated has its antecedents in Jewish history: the crazed Zealots and messianic meshugoyim who brought the wrath of Rome down upon us in the first place, and caused this Exile to be. Hopefully, our latter day Zealots will die off in their own miserable communities and wilderness caves, and won't bring down the rest of us with them, and Jerusalem will remin Jerusalem and not become a UN-ified Aelia Capitolina Al-Quds.

[Jayman]

Actually shmuley shmiley, even though the dates are off by about 100 or so years according to the date of 480 years given in the book of Kings, the hyksos could very well have been the jewish people. All we know is they were a foreign peoples that inhabited northern egypt and they eventually left. Not long afterward, the destruction of many cities in canaan as well as the destruction of Jericho occurred. This was not a common way of warfare back then, because nations wanted tribute, not total annihilation, at least most of the time. If we admit the possibility that the very few egyptian sources we have on the hyksos were actually lying about some great war and victory over them, as opposed to say a divine intervention, then there is a perfect window frame in history when the exodus and conquering of canaan could have happened. It would have been around the time of pharaohs Kamose and Ahmose The one major detail that would have been left out of the book of judges is that within 100 years, the egyptians would have reconquered all of ancient canaan and established a loose control over the many walled cities belonging to both israelites and canaanites in the land, at a time when the Israelites would have been assimilating and intermarrying in large numbers, as the book of Judges says. Many of these ancient city states would go to war with one another, all the while under the control of the Egyptians. The tel amarna letters even talk about this, and the story of Labaya sounds similar to the book of judges account of Avimelech. The egyptian kings many times did not seem to care that much that the cities were warring, as long as the victor pledged allegiance to the pharaoh. This entire scenario is a very possible explanation of the exodus and subsequent inhabiting of the land of canaan

[A E ANDERSON]

N.B. -- Allow me to clarify that I wish the haredim, individually and collectively, long and prosperous lives. My hope is that their end, when that times comes for them, will be peaceful, non-violent and of natural causes in a way that does not entail horrific consequences for their remaining co-religionists as was the case with the Zealots of the Second Temple Period.

[A E ANDERSON]

To the third graf of my first post, please add the Rambam's Commentary to the Mishna, Sanhedrin.

[ah-pee-chorus]

As a matter of fact, the Ramban in his commentary to the Torah does say that the fact that all of the species fit into the ark is a miracle.

Posted by: dlz | March 27, 2011 at 09:24 AM

unfortunately that does nothing to explain the impossibility of the items listed.

[Shlomo]

Shmarya you posted a MO viewpoint on the age of the earth and the flood here http://failedmessiah.wordpress.com/2006/01/04/marc-shapiro-on-the-age-of-the-universe/ and that post refers to this doc https://docs.google.com/viewer?url=http://failedmessiah.typepad.com/failed_messiahcom/files/marc_shapiro_on_the_age_of_the_universe_etc.pdf&embedded=true&chrome=true.
I know this view is becoming unfashionable or is becoming under chareidi bans but it is or was a normative orthodox view vis a vis Rav Kook

[Shlomo]

Also APC how did kangaroos and indeed all the marsupials but not placental mammals get to Australia over the last 400 years when there was no land bridge - you can asak unending questions of a literalistic understanding of the bible but that is not the MO viewpoint

[ah-pee-chorus]

Right, so here's the deal. As believing Jews we accept a miracle happened that allowed the ark to be built, gather and contain all known species (excluding dragons) and survive a world destroying event. But we have to accept natural laws for explaining the flood? The entire process was miraculous.

Posted by: Garnel Ironheart |

when you care about ascertaining truth, as opposed to maintaining your prior held beliefs at all costs regardless of their truth, you must at least be intellectually honest enough to be consistent with your own established rules.
orthos permit a non-literal understanding and the use of miracles as an explanation only when the torah itself explains that the event was out of the natural order, and when this explanation was part of the mesorah. the fact that you may accept the size of the flood and possibly the ability of all species to fit on the ark is dependent on having sources for them in the mesoreh. the items i listed do not permit such a defense unless you can provide sources showing that they too were part of the mesoreh.
further, even setting aside any allowance for miracles regarding the collection of animals etc.. it is clear that the repopulation was assumed to be natural. if not, why the need for the ark at all? why go through the whole charade of collecting animals? and how could there have been a continuous record of writings of people in other parts of the region and world which were written in a language that didnt exist prior to babel, how could those writings have survived the flood, and how could there be no mention of the flood? and where did the people come from post-flood who were able to continue their writings in that same language?
and by what unmentioned , unknown miracle was the genetic differentiation altered?
the facts are clear that it never happened.

screaming, "MORE MIRACLES" just doesnt cut it.

[ah-pee-chorus]

If the flood never happened, why does every culture in the world have a flood story?

Posted by: Betzalel |

of course there was some kind of a flood in the area at some time. thats why the original story of noahs ark, the epic of gilgamesh, with utnapashtim instead of noah, was widely known and written long before the torah even claimed to have been written. the torah claims to have been written in 1300 BCE , yet versions of gilgamesh were dated to 2200 BCE, and copies exist in many languages from the region including hittite,sumerian,and akkadian.
the point is that the authors of the torah described a flood at a time when none occured, and of a magnitude that is impossible, negating any chance of god as its author.

[ah-pee-chorus]

Hey ah-pee,
either you believe in a Divine Creator who has the power to manipulate nature as He sees fit, or you don't. If you do, there are no questions; if you don't, there are no answers.

Posted by: corn popper

that is a cop=out and is innacurate. this discussion is not about whether there is or could be a being that has such power. this is about the fact that the flood described in the bible didnt happen , meaning its authors could not have been that being, whether such a being exists or not. the only people for whom these questions are "not questions" are those that are delusional and have no interest in what is true.

[ah-pee-chorus]

i want something to be real.

Posted by: ruthie |

ruthie, something IS real. our ancestors believed this story and that and other beliefs helped make us who they were and who we are. there is no shame in that. they didnt have the same knowledge and technology we have with which to understand that it was just myth. we are part of a tribe which has endured much and accomplished great things. we can be proud while rejecting those parts of our heritage which arent true.

[ah-pee-chorus]

Ape-chorus falls into the haredi literalist trap, or at least tries to refute it. There was no flood. The bible was written by men. Moses/David, et al., may well have been composites. So what?!Posted by: A E ANDERSON

youre having trouble with comprehension.

[Jayman]

Well APC, I have a theory based on numerous sources from the mesorah, particularly kabbalah, that perhaps while mankind was independently evolving from monkeys in a process that began billions of years ago, adam and eve and their descendants, until after the flood, were not of physical form. Furthermore in this theory, the flood killed only spiritual beings. This is a long theory to lay out, but there are opinions that adam and eve after losing their original garments of light, were given a replacement garment of light that was the same that moses was given when he came down from har sinai with glowing skin, after he had divested himself of his physicality. Furthermore we see that cain dwelt to "the east of eden" which according to the opinion that eden is in the heavens, would mean that he settled in a spiritual place, namely near the entrance to the garden of eden, where the sword of fire revolved and the keruvim stood. How would a physical human do that. We also see in kabbalah that many of cain's descendants were demons.
Furthermore we hear about the fallen angels uza and azael and the giant children they had with women. That sounds more like a spiritual world than a physical one.
We see with noah that the mesorah teaches that he took 2 of every demon into the ark according to rashi. I know it may be hard to accept demons, but if one can accept the idea of an angel, just think of its spiritual opposite. Also, we see that the phrase "birds of the heavens" refers to angels according to sefer yetzirah in regard to the days of creation. Furthermore while it says about the birds "two and two, male and female" it says about the animals "two and two, ish veishto - man and his wife" This is a very odd way to refer to animals , and no where else in the torah are a pair of beasts referred to as "man and his wife"
Furthermore we see al pi kabbalah that the ark's three levels corresponded to the 3 worlds. The top corresponding to beriah, the second to yetzirah, and the third to asiyah. So it seems that perhaps this flood effected up to beriah, yet physical water should not effect a spiritual world.

Finally we see that after leaving the ark, and being permitted to eat animals, did the age of humans begin to fall drastically. Pehaps at this point noah and his descendants became physicalized with a unique set of genes. This may explain abraham and isaacs insistence on their children marrying within their own genetic line.
In regards to the rainbow, there is one other place in the torah we hear about G-d putting a rainbow in the clouds. Ezekiel in his vision of the image of G-d on his throne in upper gan eden describes the "appearance of a rainbow in the clouds on a rainy day, so was the radiance around him." Perhaps this is what was being referred to when G-d said he placed his rainbow in the clouds.

I can't say this for sure, but my point is that the mesorah has some pretty fantastic things to say about the flood that could lead to the interpretation of a flood that effected the spiritual worlds and did not really effect the physical world at all.

[jay]

It also sounds like an LSD trip. But hey, if you want to believe it, go for it. BTW- no one anywhere suggests that humans descended from monkeys.

[Jayman]

If we can accept angels, and souls, and afterlife as a possibility, I don't think that other metaphysical concepts are such a jump in logic.

And actually, there are some well known rabbis who have said that the possibility of a divinely guided evolution would not be contrary to the torah.

[ah-pee-chorus]

jayman-
i dont know where to begin. "ayn meekra yotzei me'dai pshuto". to believe in the psychedelic rantings of some deranged people calling themselves kabbalists and take what they write as some explanation of actual events is to call the author of the torah a fool. how could these few be right and the many millions of others who read the torah be so completely wrong? that would indicate a god who either totally misjudged the way readers would understand the torah, or was intentionally deceptive. neither is very pretty.

there are some well known rabbis who have said that the possibility of a divinely guided evolution would not be contrary to the torah.

those rabbis are wrong. they might recognize that evolution disproves the torah unless they change the complete understanding of it, but even the rambam forbids it.

the rambam spoke clearly against this.

""From amongst the things that you must very much contemplate is that it (the Torah) mentions the creation of man in the six days of creation and it states “He created them male and female”. It concludes [the episode of] all of creation and states “And the heavens and earth were completed and all of their hosts”. After this it relates another beginning to the creation of [Adam and Chava and states that] Chava [came] from Adam, and it mentions the tree of life and tree of knowledge, and the story of the snake and what occurred, and it makes (i.e. establishes) that all this occurred after Adam was placed in Gan Eden. All of the wise men, may their memory be blessed, concur that this episode occurred on the sixth day [of creation] and that nothing will change after the six days of creation, and therefore none of the things from amongst those we mentioned [above] are distant (i.e. farfetched) because the laws of nature were not crystallized as of yet.” (Moreh 2:30 - Kapach ed. pg. 236)

to accept evolution is also to understand that there was no single first man. there were many. and yet the rambam says,

""Man was created alone in order to teach the world that whoever destroys [i.e. kills] a human life, it is as if he destroyed the entire world; and whoever maintains a human life, it is as if he maintained the entire world. Behold, all of mankind is created in the form of Adam haRishon and yet each person’s countenance is dissimilar from his friend’s. Therefore, each and every person can say, ‘the world was created specifically for me’”. (Hilchos Sanhedrin 12:3) ""

he states again here that adam was an actual person, not an allegory.

""“The geographical location of the mizbeach was extremely precise; it’s location is never to be altered…It is a tradition in the hands of all that the place Dovid and Shlomo built the mizbeach in Goren Arvinah is the same place that Avraham built the mizbeach to which he tied Yitzchok. It is the place which Noach built upon when he exited the ark. It is the mizbeach which Kayin and Hevel offered upon and Adam haRishon sacrificed a korban when he was created. And from there he was created. Our sages have said, ‘Adam was born from the dust located at the place of his atonement’”. (Hilchos Beis haBechira 2:1-2) ""

you cant use the rambams general comment that when science has more knowledge than chazal on certain issues it is okay to accept them, as one of the bases for a claim that evolution fits with breishis, when the very same rambam is very clear in what he says, even going so far as to quote that " ‘Adam was born from the dust located at the place of his atonement’"
it doesnt get much more literal than that.

[moshe aron kestenbaum Williamsburg ODA]

The flood was a localized flood it was not in the entire world . As far as mamals the teferes yisroel brings the medrash that hashem built worlds and then destroyed it so those old mamals are from those destroyed worlds

[Loveandlivethetorah.blogspot.com]

--...orthos permit a non-literal understanding and the use of miracles as an explanation only when the torah itself explains that the event was out of the natural order, and when this explanation was part of the mesorah...--

If the events of the flood were not supernatural i don't know what it.

--the items i listed do not permit such a defense unless you can provide sources showing that they too were part of the mesoreh...--

What is your source for this claim?
Also the whole thing was a big supernatural event,do you think that every little miraculous detail would be mentioned?(it seems you do,so please list the source).

--it is clear that the repopulation was assumed to be natural.--

No,the gene diversification was a miracle.
Everything else was natural.
unless I'm missing something else that was supernatural
(yes i know,you're not interested in that answer...)

--if not, why the need for the ark at all? why go through the whole charade of collecting animals?--

He wanted Noah to do something,
A person has to do some Hishtadlut.(put in some effort,this world is not a picnic)
Also it probably tested him because his neighbors and friends must have ridiculed him for building an ark.(and he built for along time)
And It was a clear warning sign to people to change their deeds,but no one listened...

--and how could there have been a continuous record of writings of people in other parts of the region and world which were written in a language that didnt exist prior to babel,--

Who said it was a sure thing that no other languages existed before babel?

--how could those writings have survived the flood, and how could there be no mention of the flood?...--

If there was no mention of a flood it was before the flood,and if it mentions the flood but is dated before the flood,the date is wrong.(Scientific dating is very accurate when it comes to organic materials,that cannot be said for the way other things are dated,there is much room for error)

--screaming, "MORE MIRACLES" just doesnt cut it.--

I see the flood as one big miraculous event,listing all the details of this event is not what i would call "screaming MORE MIRACLES".

@Jayman

Don't study things you don't understand.
How you got the idea that Shedim(demons)live in a spiritual world,and so did all of Noah's generation is beyond me.
Furthermore Shedim are not the opposite of angels,see Derekh Hashem first part 5th chapter.
Also Gan Eden CAN be In the physical world,Remember that Neshamot will return to earth during the time of mashiach.
That's because this physical world,when fixed,will be on a higher level than the temporary Olam Haba that the souls occupy currently when they die.
Go back to Qabalah basics at the very least and get rid of those crazy ideas you have(However original they may be).
This was all meant as advise BTW,so don't take it personally.

[Loveandlivethetorah.blogspot.com]

--there are some well known rabbis who have said that the possibility of a divinely guided evolution would not be contrary to the torah.

those rabbis are wrong. they might recognize that evolution disproves the torah unless they change the complete understanding of it, but even the rambam forbids it.

the rambam spoke clearly against this...--

The Rambam is not the Only Talmid Chakham that lived,just a reminder.

And besides,the only part of evolution that might pose a problem would be the part where humans supposedly descend from curious George.
If the rest of the animals came about through Evolution but only man was created whole,that would in fact fit quite well with the Rambam.
(but maybe not with you)

[jay]

Creationists love to use ignorant statements such as "descended from Curious George." No scientist would ever suggest that humans are descended from monkeys or chimps. They simply suggest that the evidence indicates that we shared a common ancestor millions of years ago.

Unless, of course, on believes that the Earth must be less then 6,000 years old, flat and under a solid dome. It also must be the center of the universe, with all celestial bodies revolving around it.

[Loveandlivethetorah.blogspot.com]

I know about common ancestry,i was dramatizing for entertainment purposes,I guess you were not amused.
Also,please note that i wrote
--If the rest of the animals came about through Evolution but only man was created whole,that would in fact fit quite well with the Rambam.--

Since you were not amused the first time maybe this one is more to your taste:

Why didn't the yeshivish American Bakhur Study nakh?
Because once he Opened up an Artscroll and see the word "Job".

[Dr. Dave]

APC:

I challenge you!

Without the flood, how else do you explain the demise of the unicorns?

The Unicorn Song

[Yoel B]

There were only about half a dozen left east of the Mississippi by the time they became protected. All beavers in the Eastern US today are descended from them.

Beavers? How about us Ashkenazim! From Wikipedia, which gives a good summary (emphasis mine):

...a 2006 study by Behar et al., based on high-resolution analysis of haplogroup K(mtDNA), suggested that about 40% of the current Ashkenazi population is descended matrilineally from just four women, or "founder lineages", that were "likely from a Hebrew/Levantine mtDNA pool" originating in the Middle East in the 1st and 2nd centuries CE. Although Haplogroup K is common throughout western Eurasia, "the observed global pattern of distribution renders very unlikely the possibility that the four aforementioned founder lineages entered the Ashkenazi mtDNA pool via gene flow from a European host population:

"..Both the extent and location of the maternal ancestral deme from which the Ashkenazi Jewry arose remain obscure. Here, using complete sequences of the maternally inherited mitochondrial DNA (mtDNA), we show that close to one-half of Ashkenazi Jews, estimated at 8,000,000 people, can be traced back to only four women carrying distinct mtDNAs that are virtually absent in other populations, with the important exception of low frequencies among non-Ashkenazi Jews. We conclude that four founding mtDNAs, likely of Near Eastern ancestry, underwent major expansion(s) in Europe within the past millennium.."
In addition, Behar et al. have suggested that the rest of Ashkenazi mtDNA is originated from ~150 women, most of those likely of Middle Eastern origin.

[tooclose2detroit]

I cant wait til the Masters in 2 weeks.-I hope Tiger "shows up".

[ah-pee-chorus]

here is some interesting additional evidence against the flood. keep in mind the flood was supposed to have been around 2350 BCE.

"According to recorded history there were six well-established cultures or ‘civilizations’ at the time of Noah’s Flood. They were: Mesopotamia (Sumerian), Indus Valley, Egypt, the Minoan, the ‘Holy Land’ area, and China. Archaeological records such as ruins of cities, tools, pottery, skeletal remains, weapons, and other artifacts support the written records that survive. These records all show that humans and civilizations existed in almost all parts of the world at the time of the flood, and that there was a worldwide population of possibly 100 million people.

The civilizations of the time were using Bronze tools and had the potters wheel, looms to made textiles, had invented the plow and domesticated draft animals, they also traded with peoples hundreds of miles away. In other words a cultural revolution was going on. Man was changing from herders and hunter-gatherers to settled agriculture and cities that could support the new technologies. An infrastructure was developing. The written record and Archaeology support this view. Records of the Sumerian/Mesopotamian civilization show a continuous ongoing culture from about 3350 BCE to a period well past the Noachian flood.

Mesopotamia had great prosperity and expansion during the flood period under Sargon the Great and his grandson Naram-Sin. The area was a thriving center of culture and advancing civilization. There is no evidence for a cataclysmic flood wiping out the entire culture and infrastructure.

Egyptian civilization is probably familiar to most of us. Egypt’s dynastic history started with the uniting of Upper and Lower Egypt by King Menes, around 3100 BCE. The Egyptian period known as the “Old Kingdom” lasted from 2800 to 2175 BCE. During this time many of the pyramids were built. There is no record, written or archaeological, for a monster flood destroying and completely interrupting this countries infrastructure or it’s monuments such as the Sphinx, the Step Pyramid, or the Great Pyramids, which were built before ‘The Flood’

China has a reasonably accurate history starting around 3000 BCE. According to texts from a Chinese book called “Shu King” and verified by archaeological records, China was undergoing a prosperous period around 2400 to 2200 BCE during the early Yaou Dynasty. They have no record of a cataclysmic flood interrupting their whole civilization and destroying the infrastructure of the country.

The Indus valley civilization has a well-known history dating back to perhaps 3100 BCE. By 2500 BCE there were two major cities, Mohendaro (or Mohenjo-Daro) and Harrapa, which rivaled Egypt and Mesopotamia in population and technologies. This great Civilization also encompassed maybe 100 smaller cities, towns, and villages, and didn’t fall until about 1500 BCE. They have no record of a worldwide civilization-destroying flood.

The Minoan civilization was probably as old as Egypt. Based on the Island of Crete, this civilization grew quickly and was highly advanced by 2500 BCE. By the middle of the second millennium it had an alphabet, used bronze tools, had pottery, textiles, advanced architecture, and had established cities around the Islands. It continued to grow and was a center for trade and culture until about the mid-1400′s BCE when it was suddenly destroyed by the violent eruption of the Thera volcano. There has been no evidence unearthed from this civilization that shows a flood destroying their whole infrastructure, at any time in their existence.

We do not have any archaeological evidence from the Japanese culture, Native American culture, or the Black tribes of Africa that indicate a world wide flood at any time in their existence. Think about this. How could all these civilizations, tribes, and world-wide culture along with sooo many people suddenly disappear from the earth and then suddenly reappear all over the world and bring the same culture, arts, pottery design, architecture, writing, language, and artifacts that was unique to them and their part of the world?

The entire history of the world does not show…any…of the known civilizations to have a large gap in their chronology or technologies as a result of being destroyed by a worldwide flood. It is not plausible that they were destroyed, and within a few short years, reappeared in their original numbers and with the same abilities and infrastructure. All the inventions and culture of the people of the time…would have had to be reinvented by new inhabitants…that did not happen. It just didn’t happen people. "

http://thewordofme.wordpress.com/2008/07/12/more-evidence-against-noahs-flood/

[A. Nuran]

The Torah may be Divine, but it is incomplete. There were actually three Arks.

The first one full of dinosaurs and big, warty, hairy mammals. It hit a rock and sank.

The second went off course and landed on Australia.

The third ended up on a mountain in Turkey

[ah-pee-chorus]

And besides,the only part of evolution that might pose a problem would be the part where humans supposedly descend from curious George.
If the rest of the animals came about through Evolution but only man was created whole,that would in fact fit quite well with the Rambam.
(but maybe not with you)

Posted by: Loveandlivethetorah

INCORRECT. the rambam goes on to say that one may assume that god suspended the rules of nature during the six days of creation, but that by the seventh day all of the natural rules were established forever and that one must accept that ALL CREATIVE PROCESSES CEASED. otherwise shabbos wouldnt make sense. evolution means that the development and changes in living things occurs constantly and has never stopped. new species have and will continue to appear. new stars are created all the time. this prevents any reconciliation between science and rabbinic judaism.

[happen.]

the evidence listed above as well as much other evidence points one in the direction of the impossibility of the flood from many different angles. some people may find certain answers satisfy them regarding some of the issues while other proofs seem harder to explain away.
there certainly doesnt seem to be any way to explain all of the known civilizations continuous life well before and after the flood showing that regardless of your position on whether the flood "could" have happened, it DID NOT happen.
but to be fair, against all of this evidence we must also present the evidence exclusive of the torah itself that there WAS a flood. i have been unable to find any. can anybody else?

[Loveandlivethetorah.blogspot.com]

--INCORRECT. the rambam goes on to say that one may assume that god suspended the rules of nature during the six days of creation, but that by the seventh day all of the natural rules were established forever and that one must accept that ALL CREATIVE PROCESSES CEASED...evolution means that the development and changes in living things occurs constantly and has never stopped. new species have and will continue to appear. new stars are created all the time. this prevents any reconciliation between science and rabbinic judaism.--

The creative process ceased,in that you are right.
But evolution is part of the natural order of things,therefore it does not fall under the category a new creative process.
Now if you agree that the 6 days of creation were in fact billions of years then all you have is animals that have changed very slightly in less then 6000 years,so that even your strict(and incorrect) interpretation of the rambam works with evolution.(excluding the common ancestry of man)

[Loveandlivethetorah.blogspot.com]

To make it as clear as possible:

Science claims that evolution is part of the natural order of Nature.
just like the weather,the tides,the changing of the seasons,etc
Therefore Evolution cannot be considered a new creative process.
Therefore It fits quite well with Rambam.
(excluding the origins of Man).

[happen.]

slifkin tried to argue similar to this but there was near unanimity on the part of gedolim that this position is kefira!! this was one of the major reasons for the ban. if some creation is ongoing, then you are denying the reason for shabbos that is attested to in the kiddush every shabbos.
i'll repeat....KEFIRA.

[Jayman]

Love and Live Torah - Asiyah has a physical and spirit side too it. THis spiritual real is where lost souls, sheydim and some other spiritual beings are said to dwell. Thats why we can't see them. Some have called it olam hatohu, though this is different from the olam ha tohu that shattered. Also, there are opinions that gan eden was in shamayim all along, and afterwards adam was forced to leave those higher realms.
I'm aware that shaydim arent the opposite of angels, I was just trying to explain them without going into too much detail.

[ah-pee-chorus]

oops.. the previous 2 posts under the name "happen" were me. i accidentally tabbed my typing onto my name.

[Jayman]

APC, Slifkin's books were completely correct and had the support of major gedolim as well. The close mindedness of some in the chareidi world, and the fear of corrupting outside influence, led to the ban on the books, even though there was nothing wrong with them.

Also, I would add that my theory is based in part on Aryeh Kaplan's take on creation, in which he posits that humans lived for many many thousands of years prior to adam. He theorizes that Adam was a brand new creation that G-d made 6,000 years ago, from the dust of the earth. He was a type of super human, in that only he and his descendants lived hundreds of years. He theorizes that as they began intermarrying with the surrounding tribes, that special dna became watered down, until they began living only until a maximum of around 100 years. My theory, just takes this a step further and says that Adam was a brand new created human, though he was more of an angelic nature, like Moshe after he came down from sinai, than a regular human being.

I really recommend APC and Love and live torah to read the following
http://torahmusings.com/2005/01/banned-iv-evolution/

[ah-pee-chorus]

so that even your strict(and incorrect) interpretation of the rambam works with evolution.(excluding the common ancestry of man)

Posted by: Loveandlivethetorah

excluding the common ancestry of man!!! thats like saying hitler was a good guy (excluding those he murdered)

i guess the gedolim also dont understand rambam. only you do.

and i have written elsewhere how evolution is utterly incompatible with the torah no matter how many years you want to permit for the six days of creation. i can repost it if necessary but thats another topic and is irrelevant towards defending the story against the many disproofs.

[Yoel Mechanic]

>and dont bother with the "miracle " defense since these are not areas ever mentioned as being miraculous. they were to be believed as within the natural order.

So we have a book with stories of talking donkeys, and 99 year old guys who get the word to cut the end of their pee pee off, but the story of the flood has always been considered part of the "natural order" --?? sure, happens all the time. Midrashim that the water was boiling only further emphasize the natural order of this event?? Hey, if HaShem runs the world, according to this book, there can only be a fuzzy distinction between the natural order and thedis-natural un-order ...according to this book. And then the flood itself is constantly used as a grand metaphor: the 40 days of water are the 40 saw of water in a purifying mikveh; and water is the symbol of Torah, the upper gates of G-dly wisdom to rain down on the earth in the 6th millennia, etc. etc. is supposed to resonate with the natural order of the flood??? Is that supposed to make sense?? Has any of the meforshim ever ever said the Mabul took place within the natural order? I'd be happy to hear about it.

[Loveandlivethetorah.blogspot.com]

--slifkin tried to argue similar to this but there was near unanimity on the part of gedolim that this position is kefira!! this was one of the major reasons for the ban. if some creation is ongoing, then you are denying the reason for shabbos that is attested to in the kiddush every shabbos.
i'll repeat....KEFIRA.--

If you know about the ban i'm sure you know that there were just as many rabbi's opposing the ban as supporting it,
if not more.
You called them Gedolim,not me,
I call them Talidei chakhamim,They're fallible and in the case of the ban they were wrong,but i understand why they did it.(BTW i have a lot of respect for their Torah knowledge etc,just in case anyone starts attacking me for being mevaze...but I know of other rabbi's that are just as great as them,and in some cases even greater who disagree with them).
Surely you're aware that they are a minority(Although a loud one)within Orthodox Judaism.
And what about Rav A. Y. Kook,or Rav S.R. Hirsch,Rav Soloveitchik,were they not gedolim too?
there are many more rabbi's like that if you want me to list more.
The people who banned him represent a narrow charedi view on the subject,there are other views too.

And i already replied to your shabbos claim but i guess i'll repeat it.
BTW if you don't think it makes sense or is unanimously opposed by Mesorah please point out why.

--Science claims that evolution is part of the natural order of Nature.
just like the weather,the tides,the changing of the seasons,etc
Therefore Evolution cannot be considered a new creative process.
Therefore It fits quite well with Rambam.
(excluding the origins of Man).--

And i ask once more,
What is your source for the criteria you use on what may or may not be given miracle status.

[Loveandlivethetorah.blogspot.com]

@jayman.

Ok I see where you're coming from with this.
I still don't agree,
But it does not sound as crazy as before.

@Ah-Pee-Chorus

Will you please stop applying the narrow charedi view as the only authentic Mesorah?

They take things literally,bot in the Pentateuach and Hagadot Chazal.
they also have very narrow views on many other subjects.
giants of torah Like Rambam,Ramban,Ramchal,Gra,R.S. Hirsch,Rav E. Wasserman,Rav Y lipshitz(Author of tiferet yisrael on the Mishanyot)A.Y. Kook,Rav Mordekhai Eliyahu,Rav Gedalya nadel,etc had very diferent views on these topics.
There are more names of people who do not follow the Charedi Views of today,
If you want i can list some more.

[seymour]

If the flood never happened, why does every culture in the world have a flood story?

Posted by: Betzalel | March 27, 2011 at 10:02 AM

because every culture sustained a local flood that's why

[seymour]

i want something to be real.

Posted by: ruthie |

ruthie, something IS real. our ancestors believed this story and that and other beliefs helped make us who they were and who we are. there is no shame in that. they didnt have the same knowledge and technology we have with which to understand that it was just myth. we are part of a tribe which has endured much and accomplished great things. we can be proud while rejecting those parts of our heritage which arent true.

Posted by: ah-pee-chorus | March 27, 2011 at 06:17 PM

you have a point however there are bible scholars who say that when the Torah was written the people of that time clearly understood that the bible where allegories since that was the mode of writing and getting points across during that time period

[seymour]

Why stop at the flood? There is not much historical evidence for the existence of this "Moses" character either, or for any flight from Egypt as detailed in the Torah. So why bother celebrating Pesach?

Posted by: Shmuley Shmiley | March 27, 2011 at 04:16 PM

yup and that is why many Jews do not celebrate peseach since it is based on fiction.

Having said that there is evidence of people of that time cleaning out there old harvest to bring in the new and that is most likely where the pesach tradition comes from. It even hints to it in the Torah when it says about chumatz even before the exudes

[seymour]

is god dead or sleeping,

I ask that to all who take the flood story as meaning the whole world and that god made a miracle that all the creatures in the world fit into a boat.

Why don't we see anything today that defies nature and or physics.

[seymour]

one more thing

harry potter is the third most read book in the word and catching up to the bible.

If the books take the lead will believers then believe in Hogwarts? Who knows what the future will be? Will people daven to face Hogwarts?

[william e emba]

APC:

Read more Rambam. In Moreh Nevukhim, in the beginning of part 1, and in part 2, chapter 25 or so (different editions have different numbering, unfortunately), Rambam says point blank that if there seems to be a conflict between good science and literal readings of Torah, then good science prevails and we must understand Torah non-literally. He does not say there that this only applies to the first six days.

[Jeff]

harry potter is the third most read book in the word and catching up to the bible.

If Harry Potter becomes more influential than the Bible, does Neira become Voldemort?

[MIkal W. Grass]

Really wish I had the time to read all of the posts, but I have to earn a living. Maybe this evening when the kids are in bed.

I don't believe in a "literal" flood myth, but I am fascinated by the thinking of those who do, and I don't for one second believe that many of those who believe there was a flood, are crazy.

[ah-pee-chorus]

Loveandlivethetorah-

while i heard many times in yehiva that one can only ascribe events to miraculous cause when it is stated as such , i dont currently have a source for it though i will look when i have time. but that point is redundant in any case. if something wasnt explained and understood to have been a miracle through the mesorah, then surely you cant go against how that event was understood and explained for thousands of years by rabbinic judaism. to do so would admit that those mephorshim who were "closer to the source" had less knowledge of what the torah meant than todays readers, which contradicts the very basis of orthodox beliefs. and if the torah was not explained at har sinai in such a way that ensured our oral tradition of understanding, so much so that large details of the most important stories were interpreted incorrectly, then how can you assume these same people- who didnt understand how the flood happened and all of the required miracles which they were unaware of- would know how to make tefillin, or what were the av m'lachos, or how tzitzit are tied? your model of torah knowledge has to be consistent. either those that wrote and codified the halachos had a better understanding of the torah than we could possibly have, or they didnt. you cant have it both ways.

[ah-pee-chorus]

your desire to now claim that evolution is consistent with the torah is ridiculous. the torah states man was created by god from dust. and the gemarra analyzes what god did during each hour of the sixth day. NOWHERE in the mesorah is man understood to have evolved as a species over billions of years from a common ancestor of great apes. and heres a repost of some other facts rendering a reconciliation of the ortho view of creation and evolution incredible.

1.man didn't evolve 6000 years ago.( even those who claim the torah could have meant billions of years for the six days agree that the clock as we know it began with creation of man.) it was closer to 200,000 years ago.
2.man didn't evolve from dirt as the torah says.man evolved from ancestors of great apes.
3.adam couldnt have named all the animals. most were extinct many millions of years earlier.
4.plants didnt exist before the sun as the torah believes.
5.trees werent before fish.
6.birds werent before land animals, they evolved from dinosaurs.

but in any case, all of your attempts to claim that many previously unknown miracles allow us to explain how the flood could theoretically have happened despite the massive scientific evidence to the contrary , run into a brick wall when faced with the insurmountable evidence that miracles or not, the flood DID NOT HAPPEN. in my post at 10:30PM above we know that there were multiple societies with unbroken histories through the time of their supposed extinction via the flood.
so which answer will you invoke? all of the evidence from each of these groups all over the world is wrong? or did god , after killing all of these people around the world , immediately replace everyone with new people who possessed all of the knowledge of their dead predecessors, while also removing the memory from their brain of how they got there. god must also have caused them not to write about this flood which would have seen everything destroyed. which of these 2 options do you find credible?

[ah-pee-chorus]

Rambam says point blank that if there seems to be a conflict between good science and literal readings of Torah, then good science prevails and we must understand Torah non-literally. He does not say there that this only applies to the first six days.

Posted by: william e emba

quite the contrary, he says that one may NOT do this in regards to certain aspects of the first six days. so i'm missing your point. please elaborate.

[LIVE]

APIKORAS TOV SHILO NIVRA G-D WILL PROVE TO YOU ALL THAT THE TORAH IS LIVE AND WELL YOU QUESTION THE TORAH YOU QUESTION G-D THERE IS NO PURPOSE FOR YOUR EXISTENCE PACK YOUR BAGS YOUR ON THE WAY OUT.

[ah-pee-chorus]

LIVE -

the muslims and christians say the same thing about you and are just as sure theyre right. are you scared?

[Loveandlivethetorah.blogspot.com]

@ APC

Don't twist my view.
I am not inventing new miracles.
When a miraculous event happens the Written and oral torah are not expected,nor are they supposed to,List every single aspect of the event that was miraculous.
Especially if the knowledge at the time was unknown,For instance They did not know of DNA,so there was no reason to list the gene diversification AS MIRACULOUS.
All the animals are able to fit on an Ark,And there was food and water,all things that are not possible in the reality that we observe according to science.
So just because it does not mention anything explicitly about separate climates,Does not mean that miracle did not happen,rather we assume that it was part of the whole supernatural event.

Again,
When miracles happen we do not need an detailed list of exactly what was miraculous and what was not.
If an event was miraculous,then anything or involved with the event in any way which could not be natural,and there is no real basis to only interpret it allegorically/Qabalisticly must therefore be a miracle.

Again,
you provide no source for your claim and i can assure you you won't find one.
At least not one which is accepted unanimously as Mesorah since the statement of that source.

Evolution works quite well within the theory that the 6 days of creation are in fact billions of years.
And although you don't like,Man does not have to be part of this evolution of species,remember,Creating a man from dust is quite supernatural,so it does not have to fit into any Evolutionary timeline.
The dates of earliest Man you mention are irrelevant.
I'll tell you why.

The biggest,and frankly,the only challenge that scientific research can provide to try to prove the Pentateuch is a man made, is the dating of different objects and periods.
Almost everything else can be fitted into the Torah(If you don't have a strict Charedi or christian literal system of study.)The exception to that would be the dating of such things such as man,the Evolutionary timeline,etc
All these things are problematic only because of their dating,nothing else.

--3.adam couldnt have named all the animals. most were extinct many millions of years earlier.--

Really?
Adam was around for quite a while(at least millions of years)before the countdown of 6000 years began.
Remember,the 6000 years only begins once Adam was kicked out.
Furthermore i don'

--4.plants didnt exist before the sun as the torah believes.--

Only If you read the Torah literally.
thank God I don't make that mistake.

--5.trees werent before fish.--

See answer to number 4.

--6.birds werent before land animals, they evolved from dinosaurs.--

See answer to number 4.

[Loveandlivethetorah.blogspot.com]

@APC
Let me try to summarize.

You claim the Torah is man made because events described therein never occurred,or at least no even close to the way described.

So i say that if you consider the supernatural to be a real option and the scientific dating to be incorrect,then everything fits.

So you tell me that Jewish orthodox Mesorah permits no such thing.
The problem is that you use only the Narrow Charedi view as authentic mesorah.

The narrow Charedi View of today of interpreting the torah and hagdot Chazal is something which is unsupported by generations upon generation of torah Giants.
Real Gedolim,People who knew and passed on Authentic mesorah,They knew much better then you,APC,waht the mesorah is.

I will list a few names here of Gedolim over the ages who would completely disagree with what you claim is authentic mesorah,which you no doubt picked up in Yehsiva.
Today's yeshivas manage to do something mind boggling.
They Can keep Men In Yeshiva for over 6 hours a day(sometimes over 10 hours)and for a over 3 years too years too,and then they go to kollel for another few yeras,
and still turn out Amei Aratzim by the thousands who know nothing except what the chumrah of the week is!
APC's view on what Real mesorah is can only be a product of such a system.

Here are the names.
Ramabm,Ramban,Rav Avraham ben Ezra,maharal,Ramchal,Gra,Rav R.S. Hirsh,Rav A.Y. Kook,Chazon Ish,Rav S.Z. Aurbach,Rav Y.B. Soloveitchick,Rav A. lichtenstein,Rav Yitzchak Abadi,Rav David Bar Hayim.

For reading material to show you you're worng about the way you take many of the Hagadot literaly.

1)the ramchal's "Ma'amar Al HaHagadot."

2)Shmuel HaNagid's mevo Hatalmud

I have also copied some Bits from sources that is already translated on wikipedia

--Maimonides, in his preface to the tenth chapter of Tractate Sanhedrin (Perek Chelek), describes three possible approaches to the interpretation of the Aggadah.
1)...(it's rejected so i dont list it)

The second approach is to assume that anything said by the Sages was intended literally, and to therefore reject, as impossible, non-rational or fantastic teachings (and to consequently consider the Sages as "simpletons and ignoramuses"). Maimonides does not entirely reject rationalist interpretation, but he opposes an exegetical approach which denies the Aggadah a hidden rationality. "The sages presented their drashot in a style by which the mind of a fool will reject them because of his way of thinking; it is improper to assign any deficiency to the drash — one may rather suspect that the deficiency is a result of his intellectual shortcomings" (Commentary on the Mishnah: Introduction).

The third approach is to recognise that many Aggadot are intended to teach profound truths, and that the teachings thus operate on two levels: "overt" and "hidden". Thus any impossible assertion was, in fact, intended as a parable; further, where aggadot can be understood literally, they may be taken on this level. This is, in general, the view of the Rabbis. "It is proper … to carefully analyse [the aggadot] … when any of these seem far-fetched we must immerse ourselves in the various branches of knowledge until we understand the concepts." (Maimonides, op cit).--

--Shmuel ha-Nagid, in his "Introduction to the Talmud", states that "Aggadah comprises any comment occurring in the Talmud on any topic which is not a commandment (i.e. which is not halachic) and one should derive from it only that which is reasonable." --

[Loveandlivethetorah.blogspot.com]

-3.adam couldnt have named all the animals. most were extinct many millions of years earlier.--

Really?
Adam was around for quite a while(at least millions of years)before the countdown of 6000 years began.
Remember,the 6000 years only begins once Adam was kicked out.
Furthermore it is not necessarily true that he named every animal.

[Loveandlivethetorah.blogspot.com]

Since the Ramchal's "Ma'amar al HaHagadot"
Is very hard to find in print,hers a link to it in a pdf file.

http://www.hebrewbooks.org/24876

[william e emba]

quite the contrary, he says that one may NOT do this in regards to certain aspects of the first six days. so i'm missing your point. please elaborate.

Rambam does not say you may not do this. For example, in the excerpt you quoted above from Moreh Nevukim, he says all the wise men have not done this. Quite different.

[ah-pee-chorus]

: Loveandlivethetorah-

The exception to that would be the dating of such things such as man,the Evolutionary timeline,etc

you have no answer and you admit it. i appreciate that. ergo, since we know man evolved from earlier species the torah is man-made.

Only If you read the Torah literally.
thank God I don't make that mistake.

sorry, your pathetic responses to each of the mistakes i listed are inane. non-literality doesnt excuse outright errors.
the author didnt have to list any order at all. but he did. and it was horribly wrong. god is inerrant and can therefore be excluded as the author.
and since god is all-knowing, he would certainly have known that evidence would surface showing the stated order to be wrong. did he purposely lie? what a sneaky god! maybe he lied in order to have rational people use that as a proof of his non-existence. in that case, god must desire that all people post-darwin NOT believe in him. YOU are defying his will by maintaining belief.

1. i am still waiting for the explanation of how 5 or 6 societies completely missed the flood? from my post at 10:30PM. why do you avoid this ?

2.from post at 1:11PM

we know that there were multiple societies with unbroken histories through the time of their supposed extinction via the flood.
so which answer will you invoke? all of the evidence from each of these groups all over the world is wrong? or did god , after killing all of these people around the world , immediately replace everyone with new people who possessed all of the knowledge of their dead predecessors, while also removing the memory from their brain of how they got there. god must also have caused them not to write about this flood which would have seen everything destroyed. which of these 2 options do you find credible?
or do you have a 3rd answer i havent considered?

3. all of the evidence needs to be weighed against the evidence(separate from the torah) that a flood as described DID take place. please list such evidence so that readers may compare the evidence against and the evidence for.

[ah-pee-chorus]

Rambam does not say you may not do this. For example, in the excerpt you quoted above from Moreh Nevukim, he says all the wise men have not done this. Quite different.

Posted by: william e emba

from my post on
| March 27, 2011 at 07:58 PM you see that rambam stated as clearly as is possible that adam was created alone, and that he had a mizbeach and came from dust. so its awful silly to now try to use the rambams statement that one may accept science as supportive of evolution which directly contradicts these quoted specific requirements of belief.

[ah-pee-chorus]

Loveandlivethetorah-

in addition to the questions i just asked you, can you please list the sources from the mesorah which not only knew that the order of the items listed in creation were wrong, but what the correct order was? was it inh the gemara? rashi? the ramban? onkelos? i must have missed it. why do people recognize darwin as being so important? anyone who knew the mesorah must have known about evolution.
and what is the mesorah source to explain the nonsensical passuk that the stars and earth were created before the sun?
or perhaps you are now including darwin and the other evolutionary and common descent theorists as part of the mesorah.
and i guess cosmologists are also valid mesorah sources.
is it possible that bible apologists will accept any answer , no matter how unreasonable, illogical and inconsistent in order to maintain their beliefs which contradict all known evidence? hmmmmm

[Loveandlivethetorah.blogspot.com]

--The exception to that would be the dating of such things such as man,the Evolutionary timeline,etc

you have no answer and you admit it. i appreciate that. ergo, since we know man evolved from earlier species the torah is man-made.--

Were the scientific theories actually proven beyond a doubt as correct,then indeed i would have to believe that Humans existed before Adam.
This is no problem for many other Jews since they Take since even less literally then i do.
Remember The only problem with time is that there were humans before Adam and Eve.

--sorry, your pathetic responses to each of the mistakes i listed are inane. non-literality doesnt excuse outright errors....-

You're the one who is pathetic,
The only way you can say that and the rest of your useless comment is if you completely deny the sources i provided.
Only if you think the Rambam,Shmuel HaNagid,Ramchal,R.S. Hirsch,etc Were wrong when they did not take the Torah Literally.
And i already mentioned that the scientific dating is not even close to being an exact science,There are countless flaws,It's not unusual for science to change the time period of things because of some minor detail.

1)I already answered that when i said that scientific dating can be wrong,they were from before the flood.

2)???

3)There is quite a lot of scientific proof that almost every place on earth was covered in water at some point.
(Plenty of marine fossils high in the himalayas and andes)
From the Himalayas to the Andes etc.
The question just remains is when that happened,so again i say that scientific dating is not accuarrate at all in many cases.

[Shlomo]

APC Re your comment about Rav Slifkin You are assuming that the "Gedolim" that banned him are main stream judaism - they are not they are chareidim and really represent an extreme literalist viewpoint . I believe most Rishonim for example would not accept the Midrashim as literal (they often contradict each other) but these gedolim do take everything literally and this is not mainstream traditional Judaism (or wasn't before Judaism was hijacked)
Saadiah Gaon in Emunat vdaot that if our tradition is contradicted by good science we believe science

[Jayman]

APC I recommend this article as well

http://hirhurim.blogspot.com/2010/02/was-there-noach.html

[Loveandlivethetorah.blogspot.com]

You're setting up straw men and knocking them down.
Where is your Intellectual honesty?!
Why do you insist on making up a mesorah that does not exist,You have yet to provide me with ANY SOURCE that would provide even some validity to your claims about what the Torah is saying or how to understand Hagadot Chazal.

1)of course you missed it,Check the Rashi on the First pasuk in Bereshit,he says quite clearly that the Torah is not telling us the correct chronology of events.

2)People recognize darwin for his scientifc achievements,didn't you know that?

3)Please provide a source as in the mesorah where it says that our sages had to know of any scientific fact other than what the science of the day knew.
Believe me you won't find such a source,
But of course that won't stop you from defining mesorah as you see fit.

4)I don't need to provide an explanation,
You need to provide an explanation as to why you take it literally.

I think i was wrong about you learning your misconceptions in a yeshiva.
For all their faults they could have never turned out a someone so ignorant of basic Jewish Mesorah.

I will list sources that deal with the chronological order and the historical accuracy of the Torah:

1)Rashba (Commentary to Agada Bava Basra 74b pp 102-106)

http://daattorah.blogspot.com/2010/12/rashba-verses-understood-allegorically.html

2)Rashi Bereshit perek 1 pasuk 1.

3)Ramchals "Ma'amar Al HaHagadot"

4)Pesakhim 7a
(Ein Mukdam Ume'uchar BaTorah...)

5)You need look no further then the Talmud where There are offered many interpretations on the verses of the Torah,many conflicting with what is actually written,both chronologically and what with what would be the meaning were you to translate the pesukim word for word.

Do you need any more?

Now PLEASE,
Provide me with just ONE valid source that supports your twisted view of the mesorah.