Pray In A Mosque, Rabbi Says, But Don't Even Walk Into A Church

"It would be better to pray in a mosque and do so with meaning and after the sun rises, rather than at home, at dawn or at the airport and without meaning."

Pray in mosque, rabbi rules
In response to concerned traveler who feels he can't concentrate on prayers at airport, Rabbi Efrati says 'best option' is to go to Muslim house of prayer
Ynet

"It would be better to pray in a mosque and do so with meaning and after the sun rises, rather than at home, at dawn or at the airport and without meaning," Rabbi Baruch Efrati determined recently in a response posted on the Kipa website recently.

The surprising ruling came in response to a question posed by a web surfer living abroad who travels frequently for work purposes: "Most of the time the flights leave very early in the morning. I manage to put on tefilin at home after daybreak, but I don't have time to wait until I can complete morning prayers," he stated.

"On the other hand, if I pray at the airport – I feel extremely uncomfortable, because people stare and I find it hard to focus on my prayers."

He wished to know how to act – and Rabbi Efrati had a surprising response: "Some airports in Europe and Asia have mosques, and they are usually empty of people who are not praying and so it is quiet," he noted and suggested that the traveler inquire at the airport.

"Of course, this solution isn't perfect," the rabbi added, "but it is the best option. There is no prohibition on praying in mosques (apart for the Ran's - Rabbi Nissim ben Reuven ruling, which was not accepted)."

Rabbi Efrati noted that an example was the Cave of the Patriarchs in Hebron, which has a mosque.

Either way, the rabbi ruled that if the traveler has trouble praying with meaning in the airport – he shouldn't pray there. In addition, he stressed that praying in churches was completely and strictly forbidden. In fact, it is forbidden to step into a church, he said.

 

Comments

[Maskil]

The church prohibition is based on centuries' old piskei dinim, which date back to a much earlier time (even before the separation of the Church with protestantism), when modern Western Philosphy was still not yet dominant. In the West it is very hard for people to conceive of multiple aspects of God without absoulute unity. The Rebbe once said that a Jew who converted should no longer be regarded as "idoletrous" because parishiners do not understand the Theosophy of the Church. Then he chuckled and added that most priests do not properly understand the concept of the Trinity. Even the Tzemach Tzedek ruled in his time that the average Gentile should not be considered as an idolitor but rather be treated as one would treat a ger toshav (which can technically only be granted such a status when the majority of Jews live in biblical Eretz Israel). But modern day decisors have opened no dialogue with the Evangelical/Protestant Church leaders to identify the precise doctrine and reevaluate it for halachic status. The previous pope banished Greek and Russian Orthodoxy from the Catholic Church and the current pope actually ruled that they are idoletrous. Despite previous understandings of Catholic Dogma, it is very likely that dialogue with the Catholic Church would also lead to a new ruling and the previous docrines regarding the Trinity may no longer be relevant. But no one seems to give a crap.

[Jeff]

The Rebbe once said that a Jew who converted should no longer be regarded as "idoletrous"

The leader of a cult that worships him making pronouncements concerning what does and doesn't qualify as "idolatry". That's pretty rich.

[YbM]

an airport mosque (or even those located elsewhere), has none of the trappings of avoda zarah. no statues, no crosses, nor even star and moon.
if i am not mistaken, even the walls are bare of writings.
rendering it more kosher than yechi houses of worship, where they may have Yech statements on the walls, & pictures of their rebbes often hanging on their kossel mizrokh.

[moom]

There's nothing new to me about these rulings. Often or mostly muslims won't let you in mosques though.

[soso]

I don't think that catholic dogma has changed in those essential areas. I do not even think it could change if they wanted to. Perhaps, nowadays, they do not speak about it as overtly as they would in the past, but I do not think the catholics can change their basic faith.

[ZZB]

Does anyone know if under their "halacha," Islam actually allows Jews to pray in their mosques?

[YbM]

Often or mostly muslims won't let you in mosques though.
sez moom ? :-) (similar question asked by zbbb)
yes, in this age, in the same way that we would find it odd to let them in our shuls for the same purpose, with a prayer rug to spread on the floor etc...
also they have their rules of the house : i.e. no chairs or benches - pray prostrated on the floor. so i guess, one can pray shmona essre standing up and leave the tallis tefillin for after arrial or before getting to the airport.
these days, we have a problem even with western airport security that doesn't accept what they see as odd behaviour. I remember praying some 15 years ago with tallis and tefillin in a moslem -non arab country- at a lounge at the airport (not in the airport mosque). nobody bothered me, not even astonished stares. I must admit, it was early morning, the lounge wasn't very busy, but it wasn't deserted either. also that was before 9/11.

[YbM]

The Rebbe once said

who is he? which rebbe?

[Betzalel]

If you pray in a mosque, should you wear tefillin?

[WoolSilkCotton]

If you frequently take such early flights, consider joining the VIP Club of the airline you usually fly. Consider getting an American Express Platinum card, which also gets you access to many VIP lounges at airports.
These VIP lounges have private or semi-private cubicles for business people, and are perfect for davening. The level of cleanliness, courtesy and polite service shown to you in the VIP lounge is above and beyond what goes on when you are stuck waiting for your flight with the masses by the gate. The other people in these VIP lounges are not the usual unwashed masses you find staring at you by the gate.
Other amenities, too, that can make it worth your while, especially if you are a frequent traveler.

If davening at the airport is truly important to you, consider spending a couple of hundred bucks a year for AmEx platinum or other VIP airline club membership.

[Isa]

"""""Does anyone know if under their "halacha," Islam actually allows Jews to pray in their mosques?

Posted by: ZZB | February 13, 2011 at 07:26 AM
""""

YES [only for the tolerant types] and only if they think they can convert you

[Yoel Mechanic]

>that worships him
oh you're such a kidder

[Gevezener Chusid]

Christianity is avodah zarah for a Jew even in churches where there are no statues or crosses, etc, because Christians believe that Jesus was (is) God or "part of God". Muslims believe in the only God - they may have some of the details wrong as to what he wants from us, but they are not idolaters, nor do they believe in "shutfus"- the idea that God rules conjointly with someone else. Whether Muslims would permit Jews to pray in a mosque is a question best addressed to Muslims. Orthodox Jews would probably NOT allow Muslims to pray in a synagogue, if they did their entire ritual. If someone stands silently in a corner, who's any the wiser? For what it's worth, I was told by an elderly orthodox rabbi that it is perfectly acceptable to sit in a chair and look like you're reading a book, even for shmone esrei, if you are less distracted that way than if you are standing. Tefillin is a problem but the person said he puts his tefillin on at home and davens afterwards. That's not ideal, but he has fulfilled both obligations as far as I know. I am not and never was a talmid chochom.

[Garnel Ironheart]

This is a surprise ruling? There's nothing novel about it. The prohibition against churches is well established. The only prohibition against entering a mosque is sakanat nefashot.

[Chicago Sam]

Haredim are actually just a step away from becoming good Muslims; they have so much in common, it would not take much to push them over the edge. Check out Jews for Allah, as an example...

[tzvi]

["It would be better to pray in a mosque and do so with meaning and after the sun rises, rather than at home, at dawn or at the airport and without meaning."]

Makes sense, its what you say not where you say it. A church is something else since they all have (I assume) a statue of Jesus so one can view that one is praying to him like idol worship.

[YbM]

Gevezener Chusid
you express yourself nicely, and for me, correctly.

[Menachem Mendel lll]

ALLAH AKBAR UBER ALLES!

[David]

an airport mosque (or even those located elsewhere), has none of the trappings of avoda zarah. no statues, no crosses, nor even star and moon.
if i am not mistaken, even the walls are bare of writings.
rendering it more kosher than yechi houses of worship, where they may have Yech statements on the walls, & pictures of their rebbes often hanging on their kossel mizrokh.

Posted by: YbM | February 13, 2011 at 07:11 AM

Although I don't think it is appropriate to use someone else's house of worship it is true that a mosque is free of the trappings of Avodah Zorah whilst the average Chabad shul is not (Yechi sign and pictures of their moshiach). I even know someone that was excluded from a Chabad shul for two years because he protested about the Rebbe picture at the back of the shul.

[AaronM]

tzvi,
Not all churches have statues/pictures of Jesus, though the majority do. It was one of the battles of the Reformation, with the Iconoclasts briefly, but distinctly, gaining the upper-hand in England and North-West Europe long enough to destroy an enormous amount of statuary and stained glass. If I remember correctly, only one of the chapels at Oxford still has pre-Reformation stained-glass, and that was due to a personal favor (something like one of the personal friends of Hank 8 having gone there)

These days high-church protestents may well have statues of Jesus/Mary/whomever, but Presbyterians/Congregationalists and some of the others probably will not

Unitarians I don't know enough to say.

A

[jancsipista]

YbM- He gevezner would express himself more nicely if he would would call himself gevezener shoite.

[Rochel]

I am surprised that airports don't have a non-denominational room for worship, like hospitals, where everyone would feel comfortable. Especially in airports, there are many people from diverse religions that might need to pray passing through. I never sought one out so my information might not be accurate but I thought I had heard about these.

[WoolSilkCotton]

There are non-denominational rooms for worship at airports, hospitals, etc. They contain paraphernalia for most religions to use. If there's a statute or symbol there that's not for your religion, then just ignore it and do your prayer while focusing on your own belief system.

Why can't orthodox Jews pray in such a non-denominational chapel without insisting that the accoutrements left there for other people to use are somehow poisonous even for us to see hanging or lying there?

What makes you think your regalia is so grand and superior, and what God really wants, and that what others hold sacred isn't?

So sad that the orthodox still retain such a antisocial attitude towards the rest of society. Yeah, yeah, keep holding your grudges for all eternity. Make sure you poison your kids' minds too, just in case they consider becoming part of the brotherhood of mankind.

[tooclose2detroit]

I prayed in a "non demoninational" area in the tooclose2detroit airport-some Moslems came in and deliberately screamed and made as much noise as possible during shemone esrei, and gave me very deliberate and intimidating looks-but, the fucking liberals would, in their twisted skulls, blame it on me, and say they could understand their anger at jews-for the libb, its a hate white, hate orthodox, hate Israel thing. What sick and diseased brainz you have-I thank God every day for the founding of Planned Parenthood-can you imagine how much quicker you clowns would destroy the world if there were another 10 million of you in this country??

[David]

I prayed in a "non demoninational" area in the tooclose2detroit airport-some Moslems came in and deliberately screamed and made as much noise as possible during shemone esrei, and gave me very deliberate and intimidating looks-but,

They were just being obnoxious Moslems (as they tend to be). I very much doubt that they would even know what shimone esrei nor did they deliberately disturb you at that particular time. I am sure they would have been equally happy to disturb those from other religions as well. Don't forget, Islam has no tolerance of other religions - ultimately your only options under Islam are to convert or be killed.

[David]

Really, if Lubavitchers have no problem davening in the presence of pictures of their Rebbe, pictures of 770 on their tefillin bags and the Yechi sign, what possible problem could there be davening in a non-denominational chapel that might have a cross in it?

[tooclose2detroit]

David-they might not have known the formal name "shmonei esrei" but, not being liberals, they knew I wasnt taking a leak in the corner-they knew I was praying, and yes, indeed, they DID deliberately disturb me-NEVER put yourself alone in a room with religious moslems if you plan on seeing your next birthday.

[yidandahalf]

www.jews-for-allah.org

There really is such an entitiy. Everyday I think nothing more exists that could surprize and dismay me. Wrong again.

[Jeff]

I am surprised that airports don't have a non-denominational room for worship, like hospitals, where everyone would feel comfortable.

I think a lot of them do.

[tooclose2detroit]

I am sure that Jeff and Wooly will soon request large murals of Obama in these rooms so that they can have something sexy to stare at while they work their little pickles.

[jay]

I work closely with several Muslim professionals. They're the equivalent of what one would consider "Jewish Conservative" in their religious outlook. One has travelled to Israel several times to lecture and enjoyed the visits tremendously.

The other has socialized with us a number of times quite openly. Neither one ever tried to convert us. In fact, both were quite grateful when we directed them to local kosher food sources.

Our airport has in interfaith room for worship. It's quite private and from the little I've seen, generally those inside are treated respectfully.

[tooclose2detroit]

walk through Dearborn with a yarmulke on your head-just make sure that you max out your life insurance first.

[william e emba]

Over the years I've apparently given hazak to several Muslims. For example, once on my regular commute by train at the time, a fellow told me seeing me with my kippah regularly was quite inspiring to his own inner strength.

[william e emba]

I thought this shailah was old news too. I've even been told that observant Muslims (but not Christians) can handle non-mevushal wine. And that in fact this happens with wines from Israel.

[ah-pee-chorus]

prayed in a "non demoninational" area in the tooclose2detroit airport-some Moslems came in and deliberately screamed and made as much noise as possible during shemone esrei, and gave me very deliberate and intimidating looks-
Posted by: tooclose2detroit

please tell us more fairy tales. you are a joke.

[WoolSilkCotton]

++ah-pee-chorus | February 13, 2011 at 05:49 PM++

I thought the same thing, but why bother disturbing tooclose's castle in the sky.

++jay | February 13, 2011 at 03:23 PM++

I agree. Our virtual friends here who make comments like "they were just being obnoxious Moslems (as they tend to be)" have never actual worked in a real profession with other Moslems who work with them as colleagues, or even interacted as humans with any nonJews, much less Moslems. From their little ghettos in Boro Park and Oak Park, the entire world is their enemy.

Ever see frumme families at the airport, annoying the hell out of everyone? I'm sure that leaves a grand impression on everyone who has to endure a check-in with them in front of you, or a long flight where they're sitting nearby.

[Gefilte Fish]

My take on this question (i.e., where to daven when traveling) would depend on where on Earth you were traveling.

Major metropolitan area in U.S. (outside of NYC and Baltimore)---use the airport nondenominational room. In Detroit, especially, do NOT use any room designated as a mosque.

NYC and Baltimore---wear your tallis and tefillin while standing off to the side.

Major international city---use your judgment.

Small international city---daven in your hotel room.

[ah-pee-chorus]

Nate -
how coincidental that you, 'big yossi' and 2close2detroit all share the same symbol next to your posts, which i assume are randomly generated by IP address, and all post using the same ideology. you wouldnt be trolling, would you?

[Shmarya]

Nate -
how coincidental that you, 'big yossi' and 2close2detroit all share the same symbol next to your posts, which i assume are randomly generated by IP address, and all post using the same ideology. you wouldnt be trolling, would you?

Posted by: ah-pee-chorus | February 13, 2011 at 07:45 PM

The symbol isn't a good indication of that by itself.

But it happens that I noticed something else, checked it and banned 'Nate' about 20 minutes ago, because he is, in fact, Big Yossi – who is a troll.

[Dave]

I've seen Muslims on Youtube "favourite" videos by Rabbi Tovia Singer, and I can go on and on. Theologically speaking, we and the Muslims are very close. Whenever there is peace in the Middle East, I bet you're going to see a lot of cooperation between Jews and Muslims, even on the religious side. We even see this happening now, admittedly in a freaky/ unpleasant way, with NK apologists speaking in Yiddish-accented Arabic how well they get along with Muslims.

[Seraphya]

How is the Trinity any different than the Kabbalistic/Hasidic Godhead?

[Teddy]

Well, a Beit Din CAN declare a church fit for use as a synagogue, happened in Lemele after WW II, IF the AZ levels are low, and the XP folks don't mind putting blankets as tents over the things which are too unjewish. Of course, said church building HAD sheltered a couple of Jews.

[Al farabi]

Is a Jew allowed to pray in a Chabad house?

[Jeff]

IF the AZ levels are low

How can they tell? Do they bring in the AZometer?

[Office of the Chief Rabbi]

In my capacity as Chief Rabbi, I was asked to consult in the erection of an airport chapel. What a blast! Me, a couple of galochim of various denominations, a Mulim, and a Hindu.

I wondered if I could actually be there with the Hindu, since they are polytheists. But I stuck it out.

So the Protestant minister who convened the meeting started by saying "We're not starting with any preconceived notions, but at least we can agree that we need a room with chairs."

I wondered whether I should be the one to tell him how Muslims worship, or should I leave it to the Muslim. I chose the latter.

"And we'll have holy books there for passengers' devotions," he said. "A Koran for the Mulims, a Bible for the Christians, and a Talmud for the Jews."

I spoke up. "I don't think you want a 30 volume set of Talmud. Some prayerbooks and a Chumash would be fine."

Anyhow, when it was done, there are benches facing west, and a thingamabob in the back on the floor pointing to Mecca.

And since 9/11, you have to go through security to get there.

God bless Vespucciland!

[tooclose2detroit]

ah pee chorus-ya want fairly tales-ok, here is a fairy tail for you.
once upon a time, there was a liberal who smacked his head against a wall-now, all of a sudden, this liberal starting saying logical things, such as "people who drop out of school at 15 and get pregnant, sit and listen to screaming violent thugs all day, shouldnt be eligible to be supported by society for the rest of their sorry lives"-but, then, this liberal started losing all his friends-people started calling him names and threatening him-so, he thought back to how this happened, and he realized that it all came from the time he banged his head-so, in order to get himself back to where he used to be, he slammed his head against the wall one more time-and, wouldtnya know-he started saying things like "soak the rich", and "stop the capitalist oppression of the poor"-and, then, he got all his friends back-then he started saying stuff like "Islam is a religion of peace", and "the tea party is a bunch of racists", and then his friends realized that he was truly back to his old, fucking, illogical, dumbass self. And he called himself ah-pee-chorus!!!-or Jeff-or woolysillystocking-so, put on yer yarmulke, and walk through Dearborn on a hot sunny afternoon-you will be part of the shiskebob before you get to the other side-ahh, what a thought-think i just got another boner.

[Shmaryanovich]

2close, you da man!

[Rabi]

Don't try it in a Nigerian mosque, especially those located in the north, else your head will balance on a skewer.

[Riverdaleapikorus]

" Orthodox Jews would probably NOT allow Muslims to pray in a synagogue, if they did their entire ritual."
Gevezener- in my community a local Rabbi allows a Muslim student studying across the street from the shul to use the shul for her prayers...

[william e emba]

And he called himself ah-pee-chorus!!!-or Jeff-or woolysillystocking-so, put on yer yarmulke, and walk through Dearborn on a hot sunny afternoon-you will be part of the shiskebob before you get to the other side-ahh, what a thought-think i just got another boner.

2C2D. Could you be more specific about what gets you hot? How about black people walking in Bnei Brak? Or female people on a bus in Jerusalem?

[tooclose2detroit]

just an average american male-if you dont see the picture on top of that article and say "hot chick" then you buy your clothes from annie sez.
it's not black people walking in bnei brak-you know that-but, the typical default of the liberal is to call anyone who might criticize the worship of the magic mellanin a racist-its sudanese immigrants sneaking into Israel, hanging out in parks, drinking, stealing, causing trouble, and stressing the social services, and turning it into Detroit-if they were russians it would be equally as objectionable-but, since you have programmed yourself that anytime someone dares to question the mellanin mania sweeping the world must be driven by racism, then logic in incapable of penetrating your skull. I want Allan West to become President, and he is black-but, what the fuck, that is evidence that its not race I care about, its the content of character, and evidence is not in the libbs lexicon.

[Teddy]

Jeff, that is exactly why it needed a Beis Din, to operate the AZometer. It seems they aren't made anymore, Shoah and Aliyah, you know, the fine tuning skills are lost nowadays. I guess chabad houses made the remaining ones explode violently when they were used there on "Shul" settings.

But you know, real old style decent rabbis, could spot AZ JUST LIKE THAT!!!
They just did not walk into churches to see how much there was because it could be a bad one.

[Conliendre Tarrafan]

""Does anyone know if under their "halacha," Islam actually allows Jews to pray in their mosques?

Posted by: ZZB | February 13, 2011 at 07:26 AM
""""

YES [only for the tolerant types] and only if they think they can convert you

Posted by: Isa | February 13, 2011 at 09:25 AM

To ZZB, yes it is allowed. During the time of the Prophet, a group of Christians from Najran had visited him. During their stay in Medina, they slept and prayed in the mosque.

So ISA, this is the fundamental teaching of Islam and not about being especially tolerant or trying to convert those who do.

Get educated please.

[Conliendre Tarrafan]

" They were just being obnoxious Moslems (as they tend to be). I very much doubt that they would even know what shimone esrei nor did they deliberately disturb you at that particular time. I am sure they would have been equally happy to disturb those from other religions as well. Don't forget, Islam has no tolerance of other religions - ultimately your only options under Islam are to convert or be killed."

REally David ?

Let me see what the Quran says :

1. " There is no compulsion in religion. Truth is clear from error " ( The Quran 2:256)

2. " If it had been the Will of your Lord, they would all have believed - all who are on earth ! Will you then compel mankind, against their will, to believe ? (The Quran 10:99)

3. "If then they turn away, We have not sent you as a guard over them. Your duty is only to convey (the Message).” ( The Quran 42: 48)

4. " Clear proofs have indeed come to you; from your Lord; so whoever sees, it is for his own good; and whoever is blind [ to the Truth ] it is to his own harm. And I am not a keeper over you.” ( The Quran 6:105 )

And these -

5. "Say: 'O People of the Book [ Jews and Christians ] ! Come to common terms as between us and you: That we worship none but Allah; that we associate no partners with Him; that we erect not, from among ourselves, Lords and patrons other than Allah.' If then they turn back, say you: 'Bear witness that we (at least) are Muslims (bowing to Allah's Will).' ( The Quran, 3 : 64)

6. "Allah does not forbid you, with regard to those who do not fight against you for your faith nor drive you out of your homes, from dealing kindly and justly with them: for Allah love those who are just.” (The Quran 60: 8).

So really, David ?

[Bilal]

Salam to all my Jewish friends!

The question whether Islam allows Jewish people to pray in a Mosque?

Yes, definitely!

"It is not for such as join gods with Allah, to visit or maintain the mosques of Allah while they witness against their own souls to infidelity. The works of such bear no fruit; in fire shall they dwell." Quran 9:17

Islam allows both Jewish and Unitarian Christians to visit and pray in Mosques.

The question whether "Muslim(s)" would allow Jewish people to pray in a mosque?

Well, I dont know. Depends on how enlightened or ignorant he/they are.

[Bilal]

Muslims are likewise allowed by Islam to pray in a synagogue, but not in a trinitarian Church.